Guild Wars 2

After running countless dungeons, this is my conclusion.

PvE encounters are designed around the assumption that melee players will boast at least 15.000 HP.

Ranged professions can get away with less, but if you want to melee, 15.000 HP is a requirement.

You will still get downed a lot, no doubt, and get hit by dozens more of abilities than any ranged player, but assuming adequate skill it should minimize the amount of 1-shots.

What this means essentially though is that Warriors are perfectly viable running as full glass-cannons while Thieves for example are not.

That’s what happens when you have an 80% difference in base HP. Those that have enough, get to ignore it while the rest have to “catch up”.

There is a reason why all major MMOs have abandoned the idea of massive HP differences between different classes and this is it.

Warriors have survivability in that they have pure HP. Guardians have survivability in that heals and protection will keep them running for longer to make up for their lack of HP. Mesmers have survivability in distortion and illusions. If you want easy, make a warrior.

Thieves, on the other hand, have survivability in stealth and evasion. The system doesn’t really work because of the design of fights (hey guy’s im a boss, I’ll just stand here while I tickle you and you dps me, no utlity required is that K?).

Honestly if you want to be useful in a dungeon as a thief, run shared venoms and a vit build. They hurt the most from this idea because their whole method of survivability is based around not hitting things, while other classes can just keep hitting. Trying to be a melee thief 24/7 will not work out well for you.

Writetyper.1985:

Honestly if you want to be useful in a dungeon as a thief, run shared venoms and a vit build. They hurt the most from this idea because their whole method of survivability is based around not hitting things, while other classes can just keep hitting. Trying to be a melee thief 24/7 will not work out well for you.

What? I run glass cannon thief, and I have less problems than my Warrior.

You have permablind, stun, evade (pistol whip), stealth, and soooo much healing with lifesteal!

Writetyper.1985:

Warriors have survivability in that they have pure HP. Guardians have survivability in that heals and protection will keep them running for longer to make up for their lack of HP. Mesmers have survivability in distortion and illusions. If you want easy, make a warrior.

Thieves, on the other hand, have survivability in stealth and evasion. The system doesn’t really work because of the design of fights (hey guy’s im a boss, I’ll just stand here while I tickle you and you dps me, no utlity required is that K?).

Honestly if you want to be useful in a dungeon as a thief, run shared venoms and a vit build. They hurt the most from this idea because their whole method of survivability is based around not hitting things, while other classes can just keep hitting. Trying to be a melee thief 24/7 will not work out well for you.

Yeah, that theory works is PvP (more or less) but it doesn’t in PvE where a boss simply has to hit for a very specific amount. Bosses also have special mechanics that make them ignore Blinds and much of the CC certain classes rely on to survive.

Stealth for example might make you a less likely target but it doesn’t help you survive a big, unavoidable hit.

That’d be a problem if there actually were big, unavoidable hits in PvE. The only fight that really comes to mind where damage becomes unavoidable is Alpha, but if you’re playing that fight correctly your squishies in the party shouldn’t be eating huge damage once you’re stacked. Agony is percentage based so vit isn’t really a factor.

Health pools aren’t the be all end all to survival mechanics. Thieves, eles and Mesmers outclass Warriors in every respect when it comes to mobility and will pump out more damage if played correctly. Your survivability in those scenarios isn’t dependent on your stats like the warrior, rather your positioning. Every 1-shot in AC, for example, isn’t dependent on your vitality. Kholer’s pull, the shouts and rocks from the Howling King and Rumblus and the Scavenger’s knockdown cannot be sat through with vitality and toughness alone. You’re either immune, out of range or dead. Even running full p/v/t on a warrior in AC wouldn’t let me live through Kholer’s pull unless I popped Endure Pain. That doesn’t mean you’re unable to melee, though, because you can still whack at kholer after his pull when you’re behind him and the Graveling’s shouts aren’t a 360 degree killzone.

Until PvE actually becomes challenging base health pools will remain to be insignificant in the grand scheme of things. If you can get behind a boss and stay there through mobility as a light class then you’re good to go as far as melee is concerned. Until boss mechanics develop to the point where maintaining this position becomes impossible and distance or vitality is required to stay standing, melee isn’t any less effective.

Well you can survive Kholer’s pull and dodge away as a warrior. As a thief\ele\engi you just die if you fail to dodge.
You kinda have a larger margin for errors on warriors\guardians. Guardians can just afk-facetank some places where everyone else need to dodge\kite.

I can tank Kholers pull on my guardian, I litteraly never have to use evade when playing crithammer at Kholer.

My thief has 11k health and does fine in easier dungeons.

Pistol whip spam means I evade 80% of the time, while churning out just as much DPS as a warrior, if not more.

My thief has around 15k health, but my build is such that, as Megido said, I survive based on my position. I can’t take as many hits, but I get less often than a full fledged tank between stealth and constant dodging.

Megido.5061:

That’d be a problem if there actually were big, unavoidable hits in PvE. The only fight that really comes to mind where damage becomes unavoidable is Alpha, but if you’re playing that fight correctly your squishies in the party shouldn’t be eating huge damage once you’re stacked. Agony is percentage based so vit isn’t really a factor.

Where in alpha fight you have unavoidable damage?

Health pools aren’t the be all end all to survival mechanics. Thieves, eles and Mesmers outclass Warriors in every respect when it comes to mobility and will pump out more damage if played correctly. Your survivability in those scenarios isn’t dependent on your stats like the warrior, rather your positioning. Every 1-shot in AC, for example, isn’t dependent on your vitality. Kholer’s pull, the shouts and rocks from the Howling King and Rumblus and the Scavenger’s knockdown cannot be sat through with vitality and toughness alone. You’re either immune, out of range or dead. Even running full p/v/t on a warrior in AC wouldn’t let me live through Kholer’s pull unless I popped Endure Pain. That doesn’t mean you’re unable to melee, though, because you can still whack at kholer after his pull when you’re behind him and the Graveling’s shouts aren’t a 360 degree killzone.

Warriors have similiar mobility capabilites to eles and thieves and they do more damage, that’s their purpose of existance, straight out damage dealers.

Isslair.4908:

Well you can survive Kholer’s pull and dodge away as a warrior. As a thief\ele\engi you just die if you fail to dodge.
You kinda have a larger margin for errors on warriors\guardians. Guardians can just afk-facetank some places where everyone else need to dodge\kite.

My ele doesn’t die from Kholer’s pull, when it (very rarely) hits me – sometimes if I lag during the fight and miss a dodge, or another player obscures the animation with some flashy skill. Your utils should contain at least one stun-break (cleansing fire or mist form) to activate when it hits you, then just dodge backwards. As a bonus, you’re also getting vigor off your cantrip activation so you have more chance to dodge the next time.

So many ways this blanket statement is …False

Well, every ele I’ve pug’ed with got downed IF he was actually pulled and recieved damage from Kholer’s spin.

Obviously mist form counters it. It’s among those things evryone aware of. But it doesn’t change the thing that as a dps warrior I don’t need any stun breakers\invulnerability to survive it. I can just wait out the stun and dodge. And still have like half health. Not to mention that warrior also has stun breakers, endure pain, mobility skills etc.

And it’s just one of many examples. There’s Lupicus, where light classes survive mostly because he targets the heavies, fire shaman adds in fotm 20+ who instantly melt squishies, the list goes on.

It’s not like non-heavy classes are bad, it’s just, as I’ve said before, they don’t have such a built-in handicap for making mistakes.

reading this i really feel like i have too much HP and not enough DPS. Im a mesmer with 23-25k HP – 25k with nurishments.? Is this a bad build for dungeons?

I almost never dodge Kholer’s pull because it isn’t threatening.

Isslair.4908:

Well, every ele I’ve pug’ed with got downed IF he was actually pulled and recieved damage from Kholer’s spin.

Obviously mist form counters it. It’s among those things evryone aware of. But it doesn’t change the thing that as a dps warrior I don’t need any stun breakers\invulnerability to survive it. I can just wait out the stun and dodge. And still have like half health. Not to mention that warrior also has stun breakers, endure pain, mobility skills etc.

And it’s just one of many examples. There’s Lupicus, where light classes survive mostly because he targets the heavies, fire shaman adds in fotm 20+ who instantly melt squishies, the list goes on.

It’s not like non-heavy classes are bad, it’s just, as I’ve said before, they don’t have such a built-in handicap for making mistakes.

You’ve probably been playing with elementalists that have crappy “fire mage” builds. I can tank Kholer’s pull no problem but I never have to due to all of my cantrips.

And actually, more often than not, Lupi aggros me instead of warriors/guardians. (Go figure?) I’ve had to solo him more than once while my party ran back.

skinnyb.5920:

You’ve probably been playing with elementalists that have crappy “fire mage” builds. I can tank Kholer’s pull no problem but I never have to due to all of my cantrips.

And actually, more often than not, Lupi aggros me instead of warriors/guardians. (Go figure?) I’ve had to solo him more than once while my party ran back.

You just said you have a lot of toughness (lupi likes those kind of people).

I face tank every boss on my Warrior in full berserker gear without dodging. Adrenal Health heals me from 10% to full in like 5 seconds.

Yaki.9563:

I face tank every boss on my Warrior in full berserker gear without dodging. Adrenal Health heals me from 10% to full in like 5 seconds.

That would be the guardian and ele in your group healing you.

I guess he is right 15k hp puts you in a safe zone, where you can mess up a little and still be ok. So having around 14k – 15k hp means you’ll be ok.

The warrior being more viable than a thief, he’s incorrect.
As a glass cannon thief, 11k hp in a level 80 zone is painful but with dodging its ok plus the damage output is amazing. As for viability in dungeons, glass cannon warrior wins most of the time because they are tanky not because of damage. The thief can put out more damage than the warrior while staying either ranged or melee. Pistol+ pistol = unload = massive damage, sword + pistol = pistol whip = massive damage both of these put out comparable damage to hundred blades, add in a thief’s traits for increased damage while attacking from the side or back and you’ll see they put out more damage than a warrior while being safe with less hp.

Personally, no class is better than another. In the end the mob still dies no matter how fast it gets done. Please try to lower all the hype about heavy armor classes, they go down too.

Warrior to survive need player who play just perfect and know how to avoid all cleave type damage and even common melee attacks from boss.
He also need steal life food which is IMO just bugged and for now it’s just stupid exploit. There are probably only 2 “on crit” things in gw2 without ICD, food and warrior arms trait number X. Both should be nerfed. This trait is probably most OP trait in whole game and it’s only master one.
I have warrior with knight armor + zerk acc with dps axe/mace build. With guardian, ele in party it’s good, protection and even stupid regen helps a lot. Without is just a mess.
But for now I can just eat this OP food and heal half of my hp with one axe 5 skill on single mob…yeah it works as intended…

My guess is that Anet Didnt set out to give different classes different base hitpoints but it was a method of balancing the classes.

Megido.5061:

That’d be a problem if there actually were big, unavoidable hits in PvE. The only fight that really comes to mind where damage becomes unavoidable is Alpha, but if you’re playing that fight correctly your squishies in the party shouldn’t be eating huge damage once you’re stacked. Agony is percentage based so vit isn’t really a factor.

Health pools aren’t the be all end all to survival mechanics. Thieves, eles and Mesmers outclass Warriors in every respect when it comes to mobility and will pump out more damage if played correctly. Your survivability in those scenarios isn’t dependent on your stats like the warrior, rather your positioning. Every 1-shot in AC, for example, isn’t dependent on your vitality. Kholer’s pull, the shouts and rocks from the Howling King and Rumblus and the Scavenger’s knockdown cannot be sat through with vitality and toughness alone. You’re either immune, out of range or dead. Even running full p/v/t on a warrior in AC wouldn’t let me live through Kholer’s pull unless I popped Endure Pain. That doesn’t mean you’re unable to melee, though, because you can still whack at kholer after his pull when you’re behind him and the Graveling’s shouts aren’t a 360 degree killzone.

Until PvE actually becomes challenging base health pools will remain to be insignificant in the grand scheme of things. If you can get behind a boss and stay there through mobility as a light class then you’re good to go as far as melee is concerned. Until boss mechanics develop to the point where maintaining this position becomes impossible and distance or vitality is required to stay standing, melee isn’t any less effective.

um. i run a dps warrior and can survive a kholer pull, something is wrong with your set up, and you are only 1/2 correct when it comes to thieves, eles, mesmers doing more damage, true they can burst for more and this is a great argument for pvp, but in pve the subject of this conversation sustained damage will always end doing more damage, and that is something the warrior can do. Stand and bang and barely ever have to stop, where as the aforementioned classes cannot.

I usually run a Zerker build on my Guardian in dungeons. I’ve got…what, 11k health? It’s simply a matter of learning the mechanics and figuring out how to avoid getting killed by them without needing a really big buffer.