Guild Wars 2

Here are the videos :

Condi reaper and Daredevil dps too OP in raids, nerf please as they have 30000 dps. They can do no Updraft Gorseval run same as condi bunzerker and chro meta before. No Updraft run is the definition of OP. To be fair, Anet if you nerfed condi bunzerker and chro, you should also nerf Condi reaper and Daredevil. Let them enjoy this month and nerf it. I am looking forward for the sweet tears from the cry babys and ‘Craft some useless ascended equipments over 600G’ topic.

not sure if serious… 0.o

You missed one.

I dont understand whats the problem? I did no updraft without burnzerker before the daredevil buff on daredevil and without slow cc cheese. /shrug

Seems like someone is upset when their Chronomancer and Burnzerker got nerfed.

IronKenn.6094:

Seems like someone is upset when their Chronomancer and Burnzerker got nerfed.

So replacing 2 overpower classes with 2 new overpowered classes is okay?

Don’t kid yourself. Next rotation necro and thief will be put back in line.

Cyninja.2954:

IronKenn.6094:

Seems like someone is upset when their Chronomancer and Burnzerker got nerfed.

So replacing 2 overpower classes with 2 new overpowered classes is okay?

Don’t kid yourself. Next rotation necro and thief will be put back in line.

Giving feedback can be done in a bit more appropriate manner, I do not doubt it will be done nor did I deny the possibility that there will be balances implemented.

I’m sorry, but why exactly should thief be nerfed?
The thief in the video is doing about as much dps as the average staff ele, where an elementalist has access to a lot of utility outside of dps, and thief only has dps.
I do agree however that Anet did a horrible job on balancing thief dps over their skills, since its literally best to just spam 1 and ignore all other skills, which imo is bad, and I would like to see the damage spread out over other weapon skills like they did with revenant

IronKenn.6094:

Cyninja.2954:

IronKenn.6094:

Seems like someone is upset when their Chronomancer and Burnzerker got nerfed.

So replacing 2 overpower classes with 2 new overpowered classes is okay?

Don’t kid yourself. Next rotation necro and thief will be put back in line.

Giving feedback can be done in a bit more appropriate manner, I do not doubt it will be done nor did I deny the possibility that there will be balances implemented.

I absolutely agree, TC certainly did not produce literary gold but he did provide video feedback and mentioned the current problem.

Then again you did not critisize his lack of quality feedback (or engage his point in anyway) but instead simply went with assuming he is a fotm player who is angry about a nerf. TCs comparison between condizerker, aa daredevil and condireaper was more than valid though.

bladex.9502:

I’m sorry, but why exactly should thief be nerfed?
The thief in the video is doing about as much dps as the average staff ele, where an elementalist has access to a lot of utility outside of dps, and thief only has dps.
I do agree however that Anet did a horrible job on balancing thief dps over their skills, since its literally best to just spam 1 and ignore all other skills, which imo is bad, and I would like to see the damage spread out over other weapon skills like they did with revenant

You answerd your own question especially in light of arenanet changing revenant especially so they move away from just auto attack spam. Especially since thief aa spam is even worse then revenants. At least revs cycled through legends and utilities. Having 3 passive utility slots and never using a single weapon skill is just about the most auto attack brain dead spam there is in this game (right behind afking pet taging stuff on ranger I guess).

Cyninja.2954:

IronKenn.6094:

Cyninja.2954:

IronKenn.6094:

Seems like someone is upset when their Chronomancer and Burnzerker got nerfed.

So replacing 2 overpower classes with 2 new overpowered classes is okay?

Don’t kid yourself. Next rotation necro and thief will be put back in line.

Giving feedback can be done in a bit more appropriate manner, I do not doubt it will be done nor did I deny the possibility that there will be balances implemented.

I absolutely agree, TC certainly did not produce literary gold but he did provide video feedback and mentioned the current problem.

Then again you did not critisize his lack of quality feedback (or engage his point in anyway) but instead simply went with assuming he is a fotm player who is angry about a nerf. TCs comparison between condizerker, aa daredevil and condireaper was more than valid though.

bladex.9502:

I’m sorry, but why exactly should thief be nerfed?
The thief in the video is doing about as much dps as the average staff ele, where an elementalist has access to a lot of utility outside of dps, and thief only has dps.
I do agree however that Anet did a horrible job on balancing thief dps over their skills, since its literally best to just spam 1 and ignore all other skills, which imo is bad, and I would like to see the damage spread out over other weapon skills like they did with revenant

You answerd your own question especially in light of arenanet changing revenant especially so they move away from just auto attack spam. Especially since thief aa spam is even worse then revenants. At least revs cycled through legends and utilities. Having 3 passive utility slots and never using a single weapon skill is just about the most auto attack brain dead spam there is in this game (right behind afking pet taging stuff on ranger I guess).

There is a difference between changing something and nerfing something.
Thief DPS is fine, and shouldn’t be nerfed, instead they should take some damage from the autoattack and spread it out over the other available skills.
The OP just shouts how overpowered thief is and that it should be nerfed, that isn’t trying to give feedback, that’s just a way of forcing your opinion upon other people

Also I feel this shouldn’t be compared to condi warrior, since condi warrior got “nerfed” because of a skill that “wasn’t working as anet intended”, and its still a perfectly viable build even after the scorched earth change.

But if we’re really gonna QQ about things being overpowered because they are simple to play, shouldn’t staff ele be nerfed because it can easily reach 20k+ dps by spamming the same 3 skills? or warrior stacking 25 might by spamming the same 2 skills? or healer tempest because it can outheal pretty much any form of damage that isn’t 1-shot-lethal by just spamming auras?
By that logic every class that doesn’t require you to play the 3rd symphony of Beethoven on your keyboard to achieve high dps is OP and should be nerfed.

Maybe the problem isn’t classes being OP, but its the content being too easy?
:o
:o
:o

bladex.9502:

Cyninja.2954:

IronKenn.6094:

Cyninja.2954:

IronKenn.6094:

Seems like someone is upset when their Chronomancer and Burnzerker got nerfed.

So replacing 2 overpower classes with 2 new overpowered classes is okay?

Don’t kid yourself. Next rotation necro and thief will be put back in line.

Giving feedback can be done in a bit more appropriate manner, I do not doubt it will be done nor did I deny the possibility that there will be balances implemented.

I absolutely agree, TC certainly did not produce literary gold but he did provide video feedback and mentioned the current problem.

Then again you did not critisize his lack of quality feedback (or engage his point in anyway) but instead simply went with assuming he is a fotm player who is angry about a nerf. TCs comparison between condizerker, aa daredevil and condireaper was more than valid though.

bladex.9502:

I’m sorry, but why exactly should thief be nerfed?
The thief in the video is doing about as much dps as the average staff ele, where an elementalist has access to a lot of utility outside of dps, and thief only has dps.
I do agree however that Anet did a horrible job on balancing thief dps over their skills, since its literally best to just spam 1 and ignore all other skills, which imo is bad, and I would like to see the damage spread out over other weapon skills like they did with revenant

You answerd your own question especially in light of arenanet changing revenant especially so they move away from just auto attack spam. Especially since thief aa spam is even worse then revenants. At least revs cycled through legends and utilities. Having 3 passive utility slots and never using a single weapon skill is just about the most auto attack brain dead spam there is in this game (right behind afking pet taging stuff on ranger I guess).

There is a difference between changing something and nerfing something.
Thief DPS is fine, and shouldn’t be nerfed, instead they should take some damage from the autoattack and spread it out over the other available skills.
The OP just shouts how overpowered thief is and that it should be nerfed, that isn’t trying to give feedback, that’s just a way of forcing your opinion upon other people

Also I feel this shouldn’t be compared to condi warrior, since condi warrior got “nerfed” because of a skill that “wasn’t working as anet intended”, and its still a perfectly viable build even after the scorched earth change.

But if we’re really gonna QQ about things being overpowered because they are simple to play, shouldn’t staff ele be nerfed because it can easily reach 20k+ dps by spamming the same 3 skills? or warrior stacking 25 might by spamming the same 2 skills? or healer tempest because it can outheal pretty much any form of damage that isn’t 1-shot-lethal by just spamming auras?
By that logic every class that doesn’t require you to play the 3rd symphony of Beethoven on your keyboard to achieve high dps is OP and should be nerfed.

Maybe the problem isn’t classes being OP, but its the content being too easy?
:o
:o
:o

There is a huge difference between playing Beethoven and literally pressing no skill whatsoever.

I’m not arguing about nerfing thief dps, I’m arguing that the way it’s implemented is wrong. If not using your skills provides a higher dps than using them, balance is far off.

Personally I could care less. I just find it funny how some people keep running around asking for balance essentially until their class of choice wins the balance lottery, then change their tune and pretend like everything is fine. Here is my hint to any player who enjoys necro (repear) and thief (daredevil) for the classes they are:

- come up with some viable solutions to balance the classes because if you leave things the way they are, arenanet will balance them for you and you seriously do not want that to happen.

- alternatively pretend like everything is fine and argue with people over how balanced your class is. Don’t come whining though after the nerfbat hits

Cyninja.2954:

bladex.9502:

Cyninja.2954:

IronKenn.6094:

Cyninja.2954:

IronKenn.6094:

Seems like someone is upset when their Chronomancer and Burnzerker got nerfed.

So replacing 2 overpower classes with 2 new overpowered classes is okay?

Don’t kid yourself. Next rotation necro and thief will be put back in line.

Giving feedback can be done in a bit more appropriate manner, I do not doubt it will be done nor did I deny the possibility that there will be balances implemented.

I absolutely agree, TC certainly did not produce literary gold but he did provide video feedback and mentioned the current problem.

Then again you did not critisize his lack of quality feedback (or engage his point in anyway) but instead simply went with assuming he is a fotm player who is angry about a nerf. TCs comparison between condizerker, aa daredevil and condireaper was more than valid though.

bladex.9502:

I’m sorry, but why exactly should thief be nerfed?
The thief in the video is doing about as much dps as the average staff ele, where an elementalist has access to a lot of utility outside of dps, and thief only has dps.
I do agree however that Anet did a horrible job on balancing thief dps over their skills, since its literally best to just spam 1 and ignore all other skills, which imo is bad, and I would like to see the damage spread out over other weapon skills like they did with revenant

You answerd your own question especially in light of arenanet changing revenant especially so they move away from just auto attack spam. Especially since thief aa spam is even worse then revenants. At least revs cycled through legends and utilities. Having 3 passive utility slots and never using a single weapon skill is just about the most auto attack brain dead spam there is in this game (right behind afking pet taging stuff on ranger I guess).

There is a difference between changing something and nerfing something.
Thief DPS is fine, and shouldn’t be nerfed, instead they should take some damage from the autoattack and spread it out over the other available skills.
The OP just shouts how overpowered thief is and that it should be nerfed, that isn’t trying to give feedback, that’s just a way of forcing your opinion upon other people

Also I feel this shouldn’t be compared to condi warrior, since condi warrior got “nerfed” because of a skill that “wasn’t working as anet intended”, and its still a perfectly viable build even after the scorched earth change.

But if we’re really gonna QQ about things being overpowered because they are simple to play, shouldn’t staff ele be nerfed because it can easily reach 20k+ dps by spamming the same 3 skills? or warrior stacking 25 might by spamming the same 2 skills? or healer tempest because it can outheal pretty much any form of damage that isn’t 1-shot-lethal by just spamming auras?
By that logic every class that doesn’t require you to play the 3rd symphony of Beethoven on your keyboard to achieve high dps is OP and should be nerfed.

Maybe the problem isn’t classes being OP, but its the content being too easy?
:o
:o
:o

There is a huge difference between playing Beethoven and literally pressing no skill whatsoever.

I’m not arguing about nerfing thief dps, I’m arguing that the way it’s implemented is wrong. If not using your skills provides a higher dps than using them, balance is far off.

Personally I could care less. I just find it funny how some people keep running around asking for balance essentially until their class of choice wins the balance lottery, then change their tune and pretend like everything is fine. Here is my hint to any player who enjoys necro (repear) and thief (daredevil) for the classes they are:

- come up with some viable solutions to balance the classes because if you leave things the way they are, arenanet will balance them for you and you seriously do not want that to happen.

- alternatively pretend like everything is fine and argue with people over how balanced your class is. Don’t come whining though after the nerfbat hits

I don’t really know what your problem is, the current balancing in pve is the best balancing we ever had since hot came out. Now if only guardian had some uses then it would be really good.
Every class except guardian has some viable build that it can play for the raid.

I agree, however, that only buffing the raw dps numbers is kind of a boring solution and they should rather focus on the classes individual abilities of supporting the party in both offensive and defensive ways.

Lendruil.9061:

Cyninja.2954:

bladex.9502:

Cyninja.2954:

IronKenn.6094:

Cyninja.2954:

IronKenn.6094:

Seems like someone is upset when their Chronomancer and Burnzerker got nerfed.

So replacing 2 overpower classes with 2 new overpowered classes is okay?

Don’t kid yourself. Next rotation necro and thief will be put back in line.

Giving feedback can be done in a bit more appropriate manner, I do not doubt it will be done nor did I deny the possibility that there will be balances implemented.

I absolutely agree, TC certainly did not produce literary gold but he did provide video feedback and mentioned the current problem.

Then again you did not critisize his lack of quality feedback (or engage his point in anyway) but instead simply went with assuming he is a fotm player who is angry about a nerf. TCs comparison between condizerker, aa daredevil and condireaper was more than valid though.

bladex.9502:

I’m sorry, but why exactly should thief be nerfed?
The thief in the video is doing about as much dps as the average staff ele, where an elementalist has access to a lot of utility outside of dps, and thief only has dps.
I do agree however that Anet did a horrible job on balancing thief dps over their skills, since its literally best to just spam 1 and ignore all other skills, which imo is bad, and I would like to see the damage spread out over other weapon skills like they did with revenant

You answerd your own question especially in light of arenanet changing revenant especially so they move away from just auto attack spam. Especially since thief aa spam is even worse then revenants. At least revs cycled through legends and utilities. Having 3 passive utility slots and never using a single weapon skill is just about the most auto attack brain dead spam there is in this game (right behind afking pet taging stuff on ranger I guess).

There is a difference between changing something and nerfing something.
Thief DPS is fine, and shouldn’t be nerfed, instead they should take some damage from the autoattack and spread it out over the other available skills.
The OP just shouts how overpowered thief is and that it should be nerfed, that isn’t trying to give feedback, that’s just a way of forcing your opinion upon other people

Also I feel this shouldn’t be compared to condi warrior, since condi warrior got “nerfed” because of a skill that “wasn’t working as anet intended”, and its still a perfectly viable build even after the scorched earth change.

But if we’re really gonna QQ about things being overpowered because they are simple to play, shouldn’t staff ele be nerfed because it can easily reach 20k+ dps by spamming the same 3 skills? or warrior stacking 25 might by spamming the same 2 skills? or healer tempest because it can outheal pretty much any form of damage that isn’t 1-shot-lethal by just spamming auras?
By that logic every class that doesn’t require you to play the 3rd symphony of Beethoven on your keyboard to achieve high dps is OP and should be nerfed.

Maybe the problem isn’t classes being OP, but its the content being too easy?
:o
:o
:o

There is a huge difference between playing Beethoven and literally pressing no skill whatsoever.

I’m not arguing about nerfing thief dps, I’m arguing that the way it’s implemented is wrong. If not using your skills provides a higher dps than using them, balance is far off.

Personally I could care less. I just find it funny how some people keep running around asking for balance essentially until their class of choice wins the balance lottery, then change their tune and pretend like everything is fine. Here is my hint to any player who enjoys necro (repear) and thief (daredevil) for the classes they are:

- come up with some viable solutions to balance the classes because if you leave things the way they are, arenanet will balance them for you and you seriously do not want that to happen.

- alternatively pretend like everything is fine and argue with people over how balanced your class is. Don’t come whining though after the nerfbat hits

I don’t really know what your problem is, the current balancing in pve is the best balancing we ever had since hot came out. Now if only guardian had some uses then it would be really good.
Every class except guardian has some viable build that it can play for the raid.

I agree, however, that only buffing the raw dps numbers is kind of a boring solution and they should rather focus on the classes individual abilities of supporting the party in both offensive and defensive ways.

Sure, if we consider that:

- HoT reshuffled every class and required fixing and redesign of quite a few skills
- we completely omit spvp and wvw from the equation
- we are fine with guardians being shuned from raids, mesmer being glorified alacrity/quickness bots, rangers being taken along as healbots only, thief not needing any of their weapon skills or utility skills in pve, revenant being boonbots with half their legends being trash (and still no racial skills or proper underwater design), warrior’s being banner bots, necros being in the spot burnzerkers were pre balance change

The “balance” is certainly better than at HoT launch (woho, we’ve had progress in the last 6 months) but it certainly is nothing to go nuts happy about. Biggest complaint is coming from the glaring amount of unfixed issues that have gone unchanged/unfixed.

The only class I sort of agree with is engineer and the damage they pull with conditions (considering you actually have to play Beethoven on this class) and the spvp crowd will come in rushing that scrapper is op. Considering I never play Engineer and it’s my least favorite class ingame, that says a lot.

Cyninja.2954:

There is a huge difference between playing Beethoven and literally pressing no skill whatsoever.

I’m not arguing about nerfing thief dps, I’m arguing that the way it’s implemented is wrong. If not using your skills provides a higher dps than using them, balance is far off.

Personally I could care less. I just find it funny how some people keep running around asking for balance essentially until their class of choice wins the balance lottery, then change their tune and pretend like everything is fine. Here is my hint to any player who enjoys necro (repear) and thief (daredevil) for the classes they are:

- come up with some viable solutions to balance the classes because if you leave things the way they are, arenanet will balance them for you and you seriously do not want that to happen.

- alternatively pretend like everything is fine and argue with people over how balanced your class is. Don’t come whining though after the nerfbat hits

I agree 100% that they don’t want arenanet to balance them, but that’s an inevitability. This is going to happen in typical arenanet fashion too. They just got their damage buffed significantly and that affects their PvP….which puts a huge bullseye on their back from arenanet’s balance priorities (esports). Nothing gets a nerf faster than esports complaints. The way they just got buffed is the same reason that arenanet just nerfed revenants…which really makes no sense. Its like arenanet has no internal communication between employees/departments. They claim to have nerfed revenants auto attacks for being too strong and then turn around and setup the exact same scenario with thieves…in the same “balance” patch. Expect the same treatment they gave revenants and chronomancers….a “kitchen sink” nerf…they are going to throw nerfs at everything they can about thieves…hoping to blindly hit the offending target…typical arenanet balance. Sadly, they will probably end up worse off than before this recent balance patch. Arenanet still managed to entirely miss the primary reason these professions are undervalued in raids….party synergy….they need to contribute something valuable to the party besides personal damage…something unique.

Post 26th Reaper about 19-20k dps at Gorseval.

Post 26th Daredevil about 18-19k dps at Sabetha.

Pre 26th Burnzerker about 22-23k dps at Gorseval.

Pre 26th Tempest Staff about 19k dps at Sabetha (Tempest wasn’t nerf with the 26th so it’s probably about the same now)

I’m not saying these are absolute numbers. There is variable in there, but the fact is

- Current Reaper and Daredevil DPS is pretty much in line with Tempest and really not far from Herald. They are not OP, they are just currently on the TOP of the dps chart.

- Burnzerker was OP because it was a bit too high compare to every other profession. That’s not the case of Reaper and Daredevil.

- Reaper is actually in a really good place beceause to achieve this kind of dps, you need 2 Reaper that bounce each other Epidemic. It also need a healer to keep his jagged horror alive. It’s good, but it need help to achieve his highest dps. Otherwise it drop a couple place in term of dps.

- The only problem i personnally, see is Daredevil. Thief on general doesn’t have much support like other profession. They have some, but they are useless in raid. So imo, they SHOULD be one of the best DPS profession in the game. The problem is that they should have reached that dps (at least partially) by increasing the dps of the Backstab. That way, Thief would a high dps profession, but for that you would need to be able to backstab on a regular basis, which can be hard in current Raid.

Now guys. If you still want to argue that Reaper and Daredevil are OP, bring us some evidence because so far it seem that they are pretty much in line in term of DPS with other profession. Engineer and Tempest have that kind of dps for a long time. But I would be happy to get proven wrong.

I guess that Reaper could reach higher dps than that with like an high amount of jagged horror, but that would take a lot of time to reach that point and you probably would need either a freaking good team that doesn’t put pressure on the Healer so the can heal the minions or sacrificing more dps on the team to have enough heal for the minons. But anyway, bring evidence that Reaper or Daredevil can reach something like 22-25k dps and we’ll talk.

@ Thaddeus: Great examples of the comparison of profession DPS. Also, agreed with your perspective on Daredevil, except I don’t think they could have boosted the dps of backstab or any other weapon skill without causing imbalance in PvP.

If there’s a dev out there listening, here’s my suggestions for boosting non-AA dps on thieves with either a minimal or no effect to thieves in PvP:

- Change the quickness speed scaling of backstab, Weakening Strike, Cloak and Dagger and/or other weapon skills with quickness. Thieves don’t really benefit from alacrity (especially with power DPS builds), so increasing the scaling with quickness can help them stay competitive when a chrono is in the group while also preventing thieves from being incentivized to just AA when quickness is up.
– Increase the DPS modifiers in the Critical Strikes trait line. This trait line already has a ton of DPS modifiers, but since it doesn’t really fit into any PvP builds, this could help PvE without affecting PvP.
– Add bleeding to Ice Drake Venom. PvP condi thieves can’t fit 3 venoms on to their bar due to lack of a stun break and condi thief overall is still arguably not great for PvP compared to D/P power. A bleed on Ice Drake would allow a venom share thief to run with 3 venoms and do competitive condi DPS.
– Change Leeching Venoms to grant a condi damage or duration boost instead of might. This is my #1 suggestion. Doing this would give thieves a unique boost that would make them useful beyond just having high DPS. This would also be a boost that’s not so good that it’s necessary for all groups (since it doesn’t help power builds), which would reinforce a rigid group meta in raids, but it would still be beneficial enough to make them worth considering.

edit Oh, and if any of the above changes were made, AA dps could then be reduced to some extent so that thief DPS wasn’t out of control.

Condi reaper is actually pretty well balanced since without horrors and epidemic it has very low dps. It has high requirements for max efficiency. Power reaper needs a serious buff.

Thief needs to be made more rotational like the revenant.

cpchow.7416:

Condi reaper and Daredevil dps too OP in raids, nerf please as they have 30000 dps. They can do no Updraft Gorseval run same as condi bunzerker and chro meta before. No Updraft run is the definition of OP. To be fair, Anet if you nerfed condi bunzerker and chro, you should also nerf Condi reaper and Daredevil. Let them enjoy this month and nerf it. I am looking forward for the sweet tears from the cry babys and ‘Craft some useless ascended equipments over 600G’ topic.

Well, for starters Burnzerkers reached peak dps less than a minute into a fight. It takes at least 2 sets of JHs from Lich to break 25k for Necro. With just one set of JH’s you’ll be at about 15-20k dps.

I don’t know Dahkeus. I stopped playing pvp since the end of the first league. Mostly because a bug preventing me from completing HOPE was fixed so i rushed to finish it. But Thief wasn’t in a really nice place in PvP pre 26th.

I can’t believe that a buff to backstab would have made them OP. IMO backstab is already hard to achieve and since HOT so much profession have huge active defense, sustain healing that backstab is not even a treat anymore like it used to.

To me it seem that backstab should receive a buff to compete in PvP. They could have improve the AA a little less and boost the back stab a bit.

But I can agree with your CS damage modifier. It could do a similar job.

For Leeching Venom giving condi damage. Are you talking about something that stack in intensity like Grace of the Land? Or something that doesn’t stack like Arcane Lightning? Or are you talking about a permanent buff like EA or Spotter?

One idea for condi thief would also to give a trait that make weakness made damage. Thief have a lot of it, especially in a condi build. It would be similar to chill for the reaper.

Thaddeus.4891:

I don’t know Dahkeus. I stopped playing pvp since the end of the first league. Mostly because a bug preventing me from completing HOPE was fixed so i rushed to finish it. But Thief wasn’t in a really nice place in PvP pre 26th.

I can’t believe that a buff to backstab would have made them OP. IMO backstab is already hard to achieve and since HOT so much profession have huge active defense, sustain healing that backstab is not even a treat anymore like it used to.

To me it seem that backstab should receive a buff to compete in PvP. They could have improve the AA a little less and boost the back stab a bit.

But I can agree with your CS damage modifier. It could do a similar job.

For Leeching Venom giving condi damage. Are you talking about something that stack in intensity like Grace of the Land? Or something that doesn’t stack like Arcane Lightning? Or are you talking about a permanent buff like EA or Spotter?

One idea for condi thief would also to give a trait that make weakness made damage. Thief have a lot of it, especially in a condi build. It would be similar to chill for the reaper.

The patch on the 26th did a lot for thieves, primarily by nerfing the bunker-heavy meta and toning down other classes. Personally, I never thought thief was in as bad of a state as a lot of people thought and without bunker mesmers, +1s on fights would actually result in your dead enemies instead of a downed enemy that gets quickly rezzed back up.

But, to stay on topic…

I don’t know that it matters much whether it stacks in intensity or not, but it would probably be easier to balance if it was just something that stacked in duration each time you popped a venom. This would encourage a full venom build and would allow them to change adjust the duration so that you couldn’t have a 100% up time without this. However, the amount of condi dps boost would probably matter most.

And I think the weakness idea sounds good too. However, this may be a bit too similar to to Chill with Reapers and from a developer perspective, it would likely be a bit more complicated to implement and would have a larger scope of implications to consider.

So when thief finally has any place in raids you want to get rid of them? So when they get in line with the other classes dps, why on earth would you still bring one? Thief has 1 function now. If you want to kill the class off again, seriously just go find another game and do damage there instead of trying to ruin thiefs here…

Conner.5803:

So when thief finally has any place in raids you want to get rid of them? So when they get in line with the other classes dps, why on earth would you still bring one? Thief has 1 function now. If you want to kill the class off again, seriously just go find another game and do damage there instead of trying to ruin thiefs here…

Who are you talking to? No one here is suggesting that, rofl.

Dahkeus.8243:

Conner.5803:

So when thief finally has any place in raids you want to get rid of them? So when they get in line with the other classes dps, why on earth would you still bring one? Thief has 1 function now. If you want to kill the class off again, seriously just go find another game and do damage there instead of trying to ruin thiefs here…

Who are you talking to? No one here is suggesting that, rofl.

Ehm the OP? The person demanding them to be nerfed?

Thaddeus.4891:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gshZGEsx3I

Post 26th Reaper about 19-20k dps at Gorseval.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eA126dULIr0

Post 26th Daredevil about 18-19k dps at Sabetha.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCWCcsL4Yac

Pre 26th Burnzerker about 22-23k dps at Gorseval.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9x9I6yuiHo

Pre 26th Tempest Staff about 19k dps at Sabetha (Tempest wasn’t nerf with the 26th so it’s probably about the same now)

I’m not saying these are absolute numbers. There is variable in there, but the fact is

- Current Reaper and Daredevil DPS is pretty much in line with Tempest and really not far from Herald. They are not OP, they are just currently on the TOP of the dps chart.

- Burnzerker was OP because it was a bit too high compare to every other profession. That’s not the case of Reaper and Daredevil.

- Reaper is actually in a really good place beceause to achieve this kind of dps, you need 2 Reaper that bounce each other Epidemic. It also need a healer to keep his jagged horror alive. It’s good, but it need help to achieve his highest dps. Otherwise it drop a couple place in term of dps.

- The only problem i personnally, see is Daredevil. Thief on general doesn’t have much support like other profession. They have some, but they are useless in raid. So imo, they SHOULD be one of the best DPS profession in the game. The problem is that they should have reached that dps (at least partially) by increasing the dps of the Backstab. That way, Thief would a high dps profession, but for that you would need to be able to backstab on a regular basis, which can be hard in current Raid.

Now guys. If you still want to argue that Reaper and Daredevil are OP, bring us some evidence because so far it seem that they are pretty much in line in term of DPS with other profession. Engineer and Tempest have that kind of dps for a long time. But I would be happy to get proven wrong.

I guess that Reaper could reach higher dps than that with like an high amount of jagged horror, but that would take a lot of time to reach that point and you probably would need either a freaking good team that doesn’t put pressure on the Healer so the can heal the minions or sacrificing more dps on the team to have enough heal for the minons. But anyway, bring evidence that Reaper or Daredevil can reach something like 22-25k dps and we’ll talk.

First off, great to have someone actually numbers or at least someone trying to work off of numbers. (not happy with how you basically “shaved” off some dps from thief and necro and “added” some dps to tempest, as though people wouldn’t notice). Going by the video you linked:

Repear at Gore: 19-24k depending on if they are moving, on adds, evading ground aoe

Burnzerker at Gore: aside from the bugged dps meter, corrects itsself at about 19-23k dps

DD at Sabatha: quite accurate 19-20k, it’s auto attack only so can’t really go wrong there

Tempest at Sabatha: peak 19-20k dps, if you watch the entire fight, the tempest is much closer to 15-17k and this is before alacrity got nerfed.

Second, please stick to one fight. Sabatha and Goreseval get way different damage numbers from different classes. Even with those videos you linked, they clearly show how far above other classes Thief and Necro are at the moment.

Third, look at the rotation in the DD video, it’s in the description, here let me quote it:

1111111111111111111111111111111111111117­1111111111111111111111111111111111111111­1111111111111111111111111111111111111111­1111111111111211111512

Fourth, tempest did not perse get a nerf, but alacrity did. So if we go by simply adjusting for less damage from weaker alacrity it won’t remain “probably the same”. But this gets complicated since going by our tempests, they did get buffed so total damage might be higher.

Final comment, raids are currently stacking repears and tempests (your linked video of reaper has 3 of them in the raid). That should have peoples red flags go up.

Again, go through my posts and notice what I (I don’t care about other, I can only speak for myself) am saying. Necro and thief will get nerfed along the road. Both due to different reasons, but it will happen. You can keep arguing and throwing up smokescreens, but it’s highly unlikely that arenanet is going to keep thiefs at this dps when they just now nerfed revenant because of this (hence why I’m advocating for changes which keep the dps similar but not quite as braindead). Both classes are seeing heavy discrimination from spvp aswell.

@ Cyninja

1) I didn’t shaved off or add any damage. You need to interpret the damage you see and know how Jaxnx meter work. It doesn’t calculate the dps at each second, it calculate the damage and divide it be the time since the start of the fight. For exemple, when you see in the middle of the fight the dps of the Tempest drop to 17K, it’s usually because he stopped dps altogether. Doing zero dps for a couple of second before restarting the dps. The numbers I provide on my post are the number at the end of each fight because they are the total damage output for the whole fight, divided by the time needed to complete the fight. So they are really the average dps of the profession while doing the fight. A second numbers that is interesting is the peak dps of the profession. For exemple, the Reaper have a peak dps of 25k, but his average dps for the whole fight is about 19k. So no I didn’t shave or added any dps. I just took the dps at the end of the fight, which is the average dps of the profession during that fight. The 17k dps you see at the tempest have no value, absolutely none. It’s just because he did almost no damage while doing the canon.

‘’Repear at Gore: 19-24k depending on if they are moving, on adds, evading ground aoe’’ that sentence prove that you don’t know how the dps of Jaxnx is calculated. And don’t get it as an insult or anything. If you didn’t use Jaxnx how could you know. The dps of the Reaper is probably between 27k and 15k. We can’t know because Jaxnx don’t give us the current dps, it only give us the Average dps since the start of the fight. That’s why, when the reaper glide and do zero damage, the dps meter don’t show us zero, it keep the total damage and the dps start to drop because the time continue to accumulate.

2) I would love too mate because I don’t have access to that many videos. I try to push my raid team to use the dps meter so I can have more data at least, but even me never really think about making a video when we raid. So the only thing I can do is to link video that other people did, and there isn’t a ton of those. I would really love that the community would try to make a small list of each profession in each fight, but well reality and time get in the way lol. Not a lot of people can make videos and not that much people know about Jaxnx.

3) Oh my post wasn,t about how the rotation of each profession is complex. And true enough thief have a super easy rotation just like Herald had before. The difference is that thief doesn’t bring support at all in raid, while Herald have a LOT of support to bring.

4) If you look at the video you will see that the tempest isn’t in the same party as the Chronomancer and they don’t use the 3rd subgroup with 1 herald and 1 Chrono. You can see that the tempest have zero alacrity and have near, but not perma quickness. So actually the real dps of the Tempest would be higher. Like I said, I don’t have access to enough data to put a 100% precise image of the dps of each profession. I was just poiting out that Reaper and Daredevil don’t have OP dps and that their dps is more in line with other profession.

Final)

Why a red flag? I have a video of EG doing a no updrag Gorseval kill with all 9 professions. Post 26th patch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqZf7SbOKkI

Does this should have peoples red flags go up?? OMG all professions are too op? Daredevil and Reaper are just the lastest current hype so people show them in video. It doesn’t mean that it’s op. There is talk currently that Guardian with the right buff have about 23K peak dps. If we see a bunch of video with a lot of guardian in them, shoud that have people red flags go up? Hype doesn’t mean that it’s OP.

I don’t have the pretension to know what Anet will do in the future. Honestly they kittened up Herald a bit because of the skill 2 that freak out. The initial idea of Anet seemed to be to nerf auto-attack and push people to use skill 2. But the sword #2 have problem and it doesn’t seem to be working as intented, dropping the dps of herald by a lot.

Will anet nerf Reaper and Thief? I don’t know. Personnaly, I wouldn’t mind them putting a limit to Horrors. Maybe you can’t have more than 5 or they die automatically after a certain time period. That wouldn’t be too bad honestly.

And thief could probably get a rebalance between auto-attack and other skill so it’s not that easy to play.

But my point was that those two profession ain’t OP. They have good dps, and some minor balance could be done, but they don’t need a major nerf in 3 months.

It’s a pretty big stretch to call reaper OP. First off you need 2 reapers to bounce epidemics. Without a second reaper the dps immediately drops to almost half for the first 2 minutes of the fight.

Second you need to use jagged horrors to get enough bleeds for high dps numbers. This requires an additional 2 things. First you need to have a long fight, at least 5+ minutes to get 2 sets of horrors up, otherwise you can’t hit high dps ever. Second you need a healer to maintain their health or they die and you gain no dps.

So basically you have necro doing top tier damage (not even highest dps)*******

*Need second necro
*Need at least 2 adds to bounce Epidemic
*Need high health adds to bounce epidemic
*Need healer
*Need 5+ minute fight
*Need minions not to die
*Slow ramp up
*Separating from healer drops dps in half
*Can’t do mechanics that move you away from healer
*Bugs sabbetha fight

Power Creep may be bad for the game, optimized runs might not be helping it….However nerfing every “strong build” probably isn’t any healthier for the game.

Personally i’d much rather them open up more options by tweaking other classes numerically to be on par with Necro/Thief than go back to gutting each strong build.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

*Need second necro
*Need at least 2 adds to bounce Epidemic
*Need high health adds to bounce epidemic

These aren’t technically needed to get 30k+ as long as healer and chrono both are your group.

Conner.5803:

Dahkeus.8243:

Conner.5803:

So when thief finally has any place in raids you want to get rid of them? So when they get in line with the other classes dps, why on earth would you still bring one? Thief has 1 function now. If you want to kill the class off again, seriously just go find another game and do damage there instead of trying to ruin thiefs here…

Who are you talking to? No one here is suggesting that, rofl.

Ehm the OP? The person demanding them to be nerfed?

Not overpowered doesn’t mean underpowered…

DH/DD are the new Heralds, Reaper is the new Engineer, deal with it.

how does the jaxnx dps meter work? i think it counts the dmg to all targets. If it does, the dps numbers from necro are to all targets, and much lower at gorseval only and not even close to 25k.

XII.8326:

how does the jaxnx dps meter work? i think it counts the dmg to all targets. If it does, the dps numbers from necro are to all targets, and much lower at gorseval only and not even close to 25k.

Yes the actual Gorseval damage is much lower than the DPS shown. Though one of the necros is getting massively inflated numbers by bouncing the conditions back onto Gorseval from the adds.

It lets other people focus on just damaging Gorseval as well. So it’s not like the damage is worthless but it’s not as completely insane as the damage meter alone shows.

Do Thieves and Necros actually bring something to the party other then damage?

OtterPaws.2036:

Do Thieves and Necros actually bring something to the party other then damage?

Not really…they can but its not the best.

The problem here is, do the raid encounters require anything other than damage ?
From my perspective the answer is no. While having the support is nice, it’s not required. If raids had more complex mechanics, then maybe we’d see some diversity when it comes to optimizing runs. The other end of the spectrum is also possible if they take the mechanical requirements too far obviously.

OtterPaws.2036:

Do Thieves and Necros actually bring something to the party other then damage?

Naw, but Elementalists, Engineers and Guardians don’t bring anything substantial either.

There are certain nuances but outside of the following classes there aren’t many “Mandatory” group utilities.

Warrior – Banners/Aura/Might stacks
Mesmer – Alacrity/Quickness
Ranger – Spirits/Glyph/GotL
Revenant – Facet of Nature/Might Stacks

If the group fulfills the above classes to some extent then the only thing that really matters is damage.

Yea…if raids just needed at least reflects, you could justify a guardian since chronos already have their bars full of wells (and maybe Sig of Insp). Or, if they needed someone with high personal mobility, thieves could excel (cuz engis now beat us in PvE stealth since Scrapper, lol).

Hype doesn’t mean that it’s OP. So whats the point of nerfing burnzerker, herald and chro. They are not OP as we think. Anet should bring back what they had.

No Updraft run is the definition of OP. I think no one / raid group should able to skip a designed step in the raid. It is not a joke, Anet should keep nerfing all the classes until no meta group can skip this content. It is a bug same as FOTM mossman pole/tree exploit. Everyone would be happy because only superior organized group with zero mistake can kill gorseval in the future. The pugs will never touch this boss .

Something to think about,

When this wing first came out it was (and in many regards it still is) Hard. With practice and repetition the Elite Guilds have done some amazing things and not only beat the content. But have succeeded in out preforming the content.

The general public, have been learning and you will find more and more people able to clear the content in such a manner that would appear as over powered. The concept of the pug meta being about 6 months or so (if not longer) behind the actual Meta. Stand true.

Now,
Crystal Ried and the raid team, I am sure are sitting there as they tweak and modify the numbers and design of the next and future wings. When they made this first one, they were operating under the impression that most 5 man teams were averaging probably around 10-12k dps. per person (wild guess but meh) . well, we got better, 10 – 12 k is our Low End, (real fight Dps, not vacuum) it would not shock me in the slightest, and in fact I (and many others I would imagine) would love it, if they tuned the next wing, “Salvation Pass” around the idea of a 15k dps mark?? maybe??? And then throw the mechanics on top of it all to make us sweat even more?

its gonna be a wild ride. And I am certainly looking forward to it.

Let’s hope that condi classes need trailblazer gear in next wing.

pshhh Junk,

its Dire you dunderhead. dont you know you only need one stat for a condie build???

:)

cpchow.7416:

Hype doesn’t mean that it’s OP. So whats the point of nerfing burnzerker, herald and chro. They are not OP as we think. Anet should bring back what they had.

Burnzerker was OP. Tempest, Reaper and Thief all finish Gorseval and sabetha with around 19-21K dps as average for the whole fight. Only Burnzerker was able to get to 23-24k and i’m not even talking about their peak dps which was really high. I don’t know the current dps of a Burnzerker, but I think it’s lower than 19-20k on average in raid. They might have overnerfed them, but that’s another story.

The Mesmer nerf was a good thing too IMO. 66% CD reduction was just too powerful both for PvE and PvP, while the invulnerability well allowed the Mesmer to skip the circle at VG.

The Herald nerf, was just handle poorly. I think the intention was to improve the complexity of the Herald rotation, which was a good idea. But the sword #2 work so weirdly and can screw up so much that now it’s not a reblancing of the rotation, it’s just a nerf. If they change how Sword #2 work, then I would say it’s a good thing and I hope they do something similar for the thief. Rebalancing the rotation so it’s involve more than just pressing 1, not nerfing the total dps of the profession.

Instead of asking other professions to be nerfed, how about asking your profession to be buffed?

Anybody? No? Oh well…

Bori.6179:

Instead of asking other professions to be nerfed, how about asking your profession to be buffed?

Anybody? No? Oh well…

Because if you only buff, it’s just a big power creep. GW2 is already plague with power creep, we don’t want more of it.

DH, DD and Tempest have DPS.
Berserker, Chrono, Herald and Druid have incredible offensive buffs/boons, with added healing from Druid.
Engineer and Reaper have good condition DPS.
Every class has their role, Daredevil doesn’t have kitten for utility and Reaper has small relative utility, but they make up for that with DPS.

How are this groups OP? In both videos they phase the boss at the very last moment. Some people are just so confused… sigh…

cpchow.7416:

No Updraft run is the definition of OP. I think no one / raid group should able to skip a designed step in the raid. It is not a joke, Anet should keep nerfing all the classes until no meta group can skip this content. It is a bug same as FOTM mossman pole/tree exploit.

Stop it. It’s not OP. Gorseval is the second boss in the raid. It’s basically Patchwerk. It’s a hard dps check to see if your group is competent enough to pull okay numbers they will need for the next several bosses.

Everyone would be happy because only superior organized group with zero mistake can kill gorseval in the future.

What? Beginning to suspect you’re just a troll.

Thaddeus.4891:

Bori.6179:

Instead of asking other professions to be nerfed, how about asking your profession to be buffed?

Anybody? No? Oh well…

Because if you only buff, it’s just a big power creep. GW2 is already plague with power creep, we don’t want more of it.

Power Creep is more fun for players than nerf bats.

cpchow.7416:

No Updraft run is the definition of OP. I think no one / raid group should able to skip a designed step in the raid. It is not a joke, Anet should keep nerfing all the classes until no meta group can skip this content. It is a bug same as FOTM mossman pole/tree exploit. Everyone would be happy because only superior organized group with zero mistake can kill gorseval in the future. The pugs will never touch this boss .

Instead of nerfing anything in this particular case, just make Gorseval to kill instantly after certain time if break bar not broken. Or if the whole area is coveret with the black goo, insta death.

Bori.6179:

Instead of asking other professions to be nerfed, how about asking your profession to be buffed?

Anybody? No? Oh well…

TexZero.7910:

Thaddeus.4891:

Bori.6179:

Instead of asking other professions to be nerfed, how about asking your profession to be buffed?

Anybody? No? Oh well…

Because if you only buff, it’s just a big power creep. GW2 is already plague with power creep, we don’t want more of it.

Power Creep is more fun for players than nerf bats.

Because in a game with no vertical item progression, power creep is a lot more dangerous than in traditional MMOs. Kind of obvious answer or?

We are already past the point where old content is beyond trivial. No reason to fire up the power creep to make the little semi challenging content in the game reach the same place.