Raid : Condi reaper and Daredevil too OP

Raid : Condi reaper and Daredevil too OP

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Posted by: Thaddeus.4891

Thaddeus.4891

Power Creep is more fun for players than nerf bats.

Power Creep is an cheap and easy way to balance things out while giving unaware players something to cheer up. Power Creep is one the worst thing game designer can do, especially since most player will be happy with it when they introduce it until it destroy part of their game. But players ain’t able to see the correlation so game design can get away with it.

Nerf bats is also a bad design decision. It essentially mean that they did a very bad balance decision and they need to fix it. In theory it’s as bad as a power creep, but it’s so unpopular that game designer try to use it as little as possible, meaning that it never really affect as much negativaly a game as power creep.

Good game designer should know their power curse and balance things around that power curse. Buffing when it’s below it and nerfing when it’s over it. Ideally, not doing some huge swing around it like they did with Thief. From the highest dps with support to almost no role, to one of the highest dps against but with no support. All of that in the span of a couple of months. And why is that? Mostly because of the huge power creep from HoT with debalanced everything and got 3 years of balance down the drain.

Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD

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Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

Power Creep is more fun for players than nerf bats.

Power Creep is an cheap and easy way to balance things out while giving unaware players something to cheer up. Power Creep is one the worst thing game designer can do, especially since most player will be happy with it when they introduce it until it destroy part of their game. But players ain’t able to see the correlation so game design can get away with it.

Nerf bats is also a bad design decision. It essentially mean that they did a very bad balance decision and they need to fix it. In theory it’s as bad as a power creep, but it’s so unpopular that game designer try to use it as little as possible, meaning that it never really affect as much negativaly a game as power creep.

Good game designer should know their power curse and balance things around that power curse. Buffing when it’s below it and nerfing when it’s over it. Ideally, not doing some huge swing around it like they did with Thief. From the highest dps with support to almost no role, to one of the highest dps against but with no support. All of that in the span of a couple of months. And why is that? Mostly because of the huge power creep from HoT with debalanced everything and got 3 years of balance down the drain.

If you honestly believe the game was balanced for 3 years prior to HoT, you are as delusional as they come.

I fully well know power creep, is bad. Yet, we have nothing but power creep to get due to the course the game has laid out with specializations. You can say tweak or tune, x/y. But ultimately that never happens. It would be more likely to happen if we actually had regular (monthy/bi-weekly) balance updates….However that is far from the case, which leads to huge cyclical changes to playstyles and balance.

Ask yourself how many condi warriors you saw outside of shout heal, PvP/WvW in the last 3 years ? Most people wouldnt have seen it now its common place. It opened up the floodgates to something people found fun. Was it OP, slightly. But now all that’s happened is we’ve replace that with Ele, Necro, Theif.

Guess what your next balance cycle is going to contain drastic swings towards….If it doesn’t i’ll take my hat and eat it.

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Posted by: Thaddeus.4891

Thaddeus.4891

If you honestly believe the game was balanced for 3 years prior to HoT, you are as delusional as they come.

I fully well know power creep, is bad. Yet, we have nothing but power creep to get due to the course the game has laid out with specializations.

I wrote : ‘’3 years of balance down the drain’’

You read : ‘’3 years of a balanced game’’

Good job.

It’s not because Anet continue to put Power Creep in the game that’ll stop complaining about it. The day I stop complaining about will be either because I stopped playing the game and to come on the forum or the day they will stop doing it. I know that the first one will probably happen before, but well it’s life, nothing I can do about it.

Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD

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Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

If you honestly believe the game was balanced for 3 years prior to HoT, you are as delusional as they come.

I fully well know power creep, is bad. Yet, we have nothing but power creep to get due to the course the game has laid out with specializations.

I wrote : ‘’3 years of balance down the drain’’

You read : ‘’3 years of a balanced game’’

Good job.

It’s not because Anet continue to put Power Creep in the game that’ll stop complaining about it. The day I stop complaining about will be either because I stopped playing the game and to come on the forum or the day they will stop doing it. I know that the first one will probably happen before, but well it’s life, nothing I can do about it.

Again though at what point during those 3 years of balance did we not have “Power Creep”. It’s about the only way outside of gutting classes that Anet knows how to address balance. It’s never small numerical tweaks to bring all the roles in line with a desired base performance standard.

This is what i’m getting at here, you can say it’s bad and i’ll agree it’s bad but it’s what we have as far as balance goes. Take your pick something that’s ultimately fun for players, or a bunch of more of what’s going down in the mesmer subforum of complaints about how their class specialization got gutted and left for not.

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Posted by: Velho.7123

Velho.7123

People complain about videos of people who raid almost every day and know what their roles are and what they are supposed to do while getting a good run, while the majority of the community is having a hard time to even kill Gorseval.

“Make it even harder”. Have you stopped to consider those who are struggling due to lack of organization/equipment/skill?

Matt [LOD]
Guardian main since launch

Raid : Condi reaper and Daredevil too OP

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Posted by: Thaddeus.4891

Thaddeus.4891

Again though at what point during those 3 years of balance did we not have “Power Creep”. It’s about the only way outside of gutting classes that Anet knows how to address balance. It’s never small numerical tweaks to bring all the roles in line with a desired base performance standard.

This is what i’m getting at here, you can say it’s bad and i’ll agree it’s bad but it’s what we have as far as balance goes. Take your pick something that’s ultimately fun for players, or a bunch of more of what’s going down in the mesmer subforum of complaints about how their class specialization got gutted and left for not.

Well there was 3 major power creep update in the past. One was slow with the introduction of ascended gear. That was spread over about a year. The second one was the specialisation update a couple of months before HoT and the last was the Elite Specialisation with HoT.

Honestly the power creep wasn’t bad at all during the first 2 years of the game. It was there, but not that big. Before the specialisation update for exemple, Guardian used to do what maybe 12k dps at max. Now we talk about 23K. There was more power creep in the last 6months than the first 30 months of the game.

The older power creep is there we can’t nerfed everything back to what it was before I know that. But I just hope that anet stop that nonsense, pick a power curve and stick with it for the future update.

Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD

Raid : Condi reaper and Daredevil too OP

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Posted by: bladex.9502

bladex.9502

Messed around with daredevil a bit today to see if its actual good dps in a real game solo scenario instead of a raid with perfect boon uptime and a boss that almost never attacks.
I soloed lupi about 5 times and all kills were between 3:45 and 4:30, regardless of RNG.
Lets take 4:00 as an average, that means 1,47m hp / 240 seconds = +/- 6,1k dps.

This even includes reflected autoattacks since staff autoattack pretty much has a “perma reflect uptime” on lupi if you time it right.
If you compare that 4 minutes to other professions its honestly not that good.
Ele can easily do sub-3, engi can do around 3:30, condi ranger can do 3;30 and easily push 3 minutes, even warrior can do a sub 4.

Daredevil gets carried by quickness really hard, if you find yourself in any scenario without it the dps instantly drops to average level.
I feel like discussing a nerf based on a single boss kill is kinda ridiculous because it says NOTHING about the class itself, it just tells that the class is good against a specific boss, under specific circumstances.
That’s like nerfing mesmer because reflects do well against lupi and make it do a theoretical super high dps, even tho in other fights it has low dps.

Here’s a daredevil solo to further prove my point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5T7ApkLgtHY

Even tho the time is currently the fastest p2 solo there is, if you compare the boss fights like abom where thief doesn’t have an advantage due to reflects, to for example goku’s video, the kill time isn’t that good, and that counts for every boss where there are no high damage attacks to reflect

Raid : Condi reaper and Daredevil too OP

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Posted by: Ryn.6459

Ryn.6459

Is Belka fixed?

Learning English, any correction is very welcome.

Raid : Condi reaper and Daredevil too OP

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Posted by: bladex.9502

bladex.9502

Is Belka fixed?

What do you think yourself? its anet we’re talking about here

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Posted by: Ryn.6459

Ryn.6459

lol, true.
So? Pure rng?

Learning English, any correction is very welcome.

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Posted by: bladex.9502

bladex.9502

lol, true.
So? Pure rng?

I think it has something to do with her breaking her own breakbar, and I find that when I instantly rush to Belka after entering the instance she barely ever bugs.
However if I afk first or kill spiders or something it bugs like half of the time

(edited by bladex.9502)

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Posted by: Ryn.6459

Ryn.6459

I see.
Oh! Good job by the way!

Learning English, any correction is very welcome.

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Posted by: Cyninja.2954

Cyninja.2954

Again though at what point during those 3 years of balance did we not have “Power Creep”. It’s about the only way outside of gutting classes that Anet knows how to address balance. It’s never small numerical tweaks to bring all the roles in line with a desired base performance standard.

This is what i’m getting at here, you can say it’s bad and i’ll agree it’s bad but it’s what we have as far as balance goes. Take your pick something that’s ultimately fun for players, or a bunch of more of what’s going down in the mesmer subforum of complaints about how their class specialization got gutted and left for not.

Thaddeus already answered this nicely, but I just wanted to add a bit.

Your logic is flawed. You assume (correctly at this point) that players enjoy buffs more than nerfs. That is correct. You further assume that this extends to the game in general, and that is where you are wrong. While players might enjoy classes being brought on par via buffs instead of ners, the resulting powercreep makes the game as a whole easier, more boring and cuts enjoyment severly. Now most traditional MMOs counter this by making items obsolete or adding futher levels to the level cap thus reseting the power creep and starting the process anew. Both of those don’t work in GW2 thus all people are left with is more and more obsolete content.

Messed around with daredevil a bit today to see if its actual good dps in a real game solo scenario instead of a raid with perfect boon uptime and a boss that almost never attacks.
I soloed lupi about 5 times and all kills were between 3:45 and 4:30, regardless of RNG.
Lets take 4:00 as an average, that means 1,47m hp / 240 seconds = +/- 6,1k dps.

This even includes reflected autoattacks since staff autoattack pretty much has a “perma reflect uptime” on lupi if you time it right.
If you compare that 4 minutes to other professions its honestly not that good.
Ele can easily do sub-3, engi can do around 3:30, condi ranger can do 3;30 and easily push 3 minutes, even warrior can do a sub 4.

Daredevil gets carried by quickness really hard, if you find yourself in any scenario without it the dps instantly drops to average level.
I feel like discussing a nerf based on a single boss kill is kinda ridiculous because it says NOTHING about the class itself, it just tells that the class is good against a specific boss, under specific circumstances.
That’s like nerfing mesmer because reflects do well against lupi and make it do a theoretical super high dps, even tho in other fights it has low dps.

Here’s a daredevil solo to further prove my point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5T7ApkLgtHY

Even tho the time is currently the fastest p2 solo there is, if you compare the boss fights like abom where thief doesn’t have an advantage due to reflects, to for example goku’s video, the kill time isn’t that good, and that counts for every boss where there are no high damage attacks to reflect

Nice analysis, unfortunately it is of absolutely 0 meaning.

For pve, balance is around full boons since that is what raids will usually have and provide. Sorry, there is no need to discuss pve balance in any other game mode since the only interesting area of balance is raids. Even fractals are faceroll easy after the post trait change and HoT powercreep. If your raid is not at cap might and quickness, you have a very weak setup. Alacrity is the icing on the cake ever since the nerf, but will provide a futher dps increase in a proper setup. Again, no one is advocating for thief damage nerfs, just that the damage needs to get spread out to weapon and utility skills and not mindless auto attack.

From a spvp perspective, well just play a bit spvp and do a count of how many necros/thiefs are currently seeing play. Personally I think this is what is going to get the class nerfed eventually since I doubt arenanet are as much concerned for pve balance. But if you start having 3-5 of a class stacking on teams it doesn’t take a genious that change will be comming (sadly no matter if warrented or not).

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Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

Again though at what point during those 3 years of balance did we not have “Power Creep”. It’s about the only way outside of gutting classes that Anet knows how to address balance. It’s never small numerical tweaks to bring all the roles in line with a desired base performance standard.

This is what i’m getting at here, you can say it’s bad and i’ll agree it’s bad but it’s what we have as far as balance goes. Take your pick something that’s ultimately fun for players, or a bunch of more of what’s going down in the mesmer subforum of complaints about how their class specialization got gutted and left for not.

Thaddeus already answered this nicely, but I just wanted to add a bit.

Your logic is flawed. You assume (correctly at this point) that players enjoy buffs more than nerfs. That is correct. You further assume that this extends to the game in general, and that is where you are wrong. While players might enjoy classes being brought on par via buffs instead of ners, the resulting powercreep makes the game as a whole easier, more boring and cuts enjoyment severly. Now most traditional MMOs counter this by making items obsolete or adding futher levels to the level cap thus reseting the power creep and starting the process anew. Both of those don’t work in GW2 thus all people are left with is more and more obsolete content.

One could argue that what’s actually hampering enjoyment of the game isn’t the classes. It’s the lack of frequent meaningful updates. One can even take the recent Shatter Rework as proof of this. Multiple maps were filled and people are out there doing it more frequently because of changes to it.

If we look back at the games history we can see this is fairly common, infact one would argue more so in bringing players back to doing old “trivial” content than any single balance update ever could.

So to argue that content being easier and trivial due to balance while technically correct isn’t the only reason for it being trivial lest we want to forget that age and repetition also kill content.

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Posted by: vespers.1759

vespers.1759

Press 1 to maximize dps.

Wonderful class design Anet.

Bristleback can’t hit anything? Let’s fix the HP bug instead.

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Posted by: cpchow.7416

cpchow.7416

People complain about videos of people who raid almost every day and know what their roles are and what they are supposed to do while getting a good run, while the majority of the community is having a hard time to even kill Gorseval.

“Make it even harder”. Have you stopped to consider those who are struggling due to lack of organization/equipment/skill?

“Make it even harder”. Have you stopped to consider those who are struggling due to lack of organization/equipment/skill?

Blame anet please, they nerf some classes and make everyone even harder to kill the raid boss. Next time, they will buff the boss’s hp,damage and nerf us.

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Posted by: cpchow.7416

cpchow.7416

I would like to thank you for the cry babies which did not have warrior,mesmer and revenant. They was yelling for the nerf of these three class. Now, they can’t even find a organized group to carry them and kill the raid boss. No pugs is willing to have a gorseval run now.

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Posted by: Zenith.7301

Zenith.7301

Now if we could remove that awful aftercast off Gravedigger, buff RS #1, scrap those garbage shouts and revamp those terrible PvP-centric traits, the power greatsword reaper might actually be in business.

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Posted by: Cyninja.2954

Cyninja.2954

Again though at what point during those 3 years of balance did we not have “Power Creep”. It’s about the only way outside of gutting classes that Anet knows how to address balance. It’s never small numerical tweaks to bring all the roles in line with a desired base performance standard.

This is what i’m getting at here, you can say it’s bad and i’ll agree it’s bad but it’s what we have as far as balance goes. Take your pick something that’s ultimately fun for players, or a bunch of more of what’s going down in the mesmer subforum of complaints about how their class specialization got gutted and left for not.

Thaddeus already answered this nicely, but I just wanted to add a bit.

Your logic is flawed. You assume (correctly at this point) that players enjoy buffs more than nerfs. That is correct. You further assume that this extends to the game in general, and that is where you are wrong. While players might enjoy classes being brought on par via buffs instead of ners, the resulting powercreep makes the game as a whole easier, more boring and cuts enjoyment severly. Now most traditional MMOs counter this by making items obsolete or adding futher levels to the level cap thus reseting the power creep and starting the process anew. Both of those don’t work in GW2 thus all people are left with is more and more obsolete content.

One could argue that what’s actually hampering enjoyment of the game isn’t the classes. It’s the lack of frequent meaningful updates. One can even take the recent Shatter Rework as proof of this. Multiple maps were filled and people are out there doing it more frequently because of changes to it.

If we look back at the games history we can see this is fairly common, infact one would argue more so in bringing players back to doing old “trivial” content than any single balance update ever could.

So to argue that content being easier and trivial due to balance while technically correct isn’t the only reason for it being trivial lest we want to forget that age and repetition also kill content.

Oh I absolutely agree. Now if you could explain how this point relates to balance and power creep changes?

Ever heard the proverb:“Two wrongs don’t make a right?”

Just because the game is lacking meaningful, consistent upgrades of fresh content does not mean that balance and power creep should get out of hand. Just as repetition of content and experience, while also responsible for eventually making the game easier, do not justify power creep. It’s just two sides to a coin which both need to be adressed.

Now if you are arguing that class buffs should work as short term “fun boosts and motivators” for players, sure that would work. I agreed with you on the fact that buffs in general are fun for players. Unfortunately I disagree that this is anything else than a short term solution, since the medium and longterm effects, as explained earlier, have a negative effect on the games enjoyment.

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Posted by: bladex.9502

bladex.9502

Again though at what point during those 3 years of balance did we not have “Power Creep”. It’s about the only way outside of gutting classes that Anet knows how to address balance. It’s never small numerical tweaks to bring all the roles in line with a desired base performance standard.

This is what i’m getting at here, you can say it’s bad and i’ll agree it’s bad but it’s what we have as far as balance goes. Take your pick something that’s ultimately fun for players, or a bunch of more of what’s going down in the mesmer subforum of complaints about how their class specialization got gutted and left for not.

Thaddeus already answered this nicely, but I just wanted to add a bit.

Your logic is flawed. You assume (correctly at this point) that players enjoy buffs more than nerfs. That is correct. You further assume that this extends to the game in general, and that is where you are wrong. While players might enjoy classes being brought on par via buffs instead of ners, the resulting powercreep makes the game as a whole easier, more boring and cuts enjoyment severly. Now most traditional MMOs counter this by making items obsolete or adding futher levels to the level cap thus reseting the power creep and starting the process anew. Both of those don’t work in GW2 thus all people are left with is more and more obsolete content.

Messed around with daredevil a bit today to see if its actual good dps in a real game solo scenario instead of a raid with perfect boon uptime and a boss that almost never attacks.
I soloed lupi about 5 times and all kills were between 3:45 and 4:30, regardless of RNG.
Lets take 4:00 as an average, that means 1,47m hp / 240 seconds = +/- 6,1k dps.

This even includes reflected autoattacks since staff autoattack pretty much has a “perma reflect uptime” on lupi if you time it right.
If you compare that 4 minutes to other professions its honestly not that good.
Ele can easily do sub-3, engi can do around 3:30, condi ranger can do 3;30 and easily push 3 minutes, even warrior can do a sub 4.

Daredevil gets carried by quickness really hard, if you find yourself in any scenario without it the dps instantly drops to average level.
I feel like discussing a nerf based on a single boss kill is kinda ridiculous because it says NOTHING about the class itself, it just tells that the class is good against a specific boss, under specific circumstances.
That’s like nerfing mesmer because reflects do well against lupi and make it do a theoretical super high dps, even tho in other fights it has low dps.

Here’s a daredevil solo to further prove my point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5T7ApkLgtHY

Even tho the time is currently the fastest p2 solo there is, if you compare the boss fights like abom where thief doesn’t have an advantage due to reflects, to for example goku’s video, the kill time isn’t that good, and that counts for every boss where there are no high damage attacks to reflect

Nice analysis, unfortunately it is of absolutely 0 meaning.

For pve, balance is around full boons since that is what raids will usually have and provide. Sorry, there is no need to discuss pve balance in any other game mode since the only interesting area of balance is raids. Even fractals are faceroll easy after the post trait change and HoT powercreep. If your raid is not at cap might and quickness, you have a very weak setup. Alacrity is the icing on the cake ever since the nerf, but will provide a futher dps increase in a proper setup. Again, no one is advocating for thief damage nerfs, just that the damage needs to get spread out to weapon and utility skills and not mindless auto attack.

From a spvp perspective, well just play a bit spvp and do a count of how many necros/thiefs are currently seeing play. Personally I think this is what is going to get the class nerfed eventually since I doubt arenanet are as much concerned for pve balance. But if you start having 3-5 of a class stacking on teams it doesn’t take a genious that change will be comming (sadly no matter if warrented or not).

That just further proves my point that it isn’t the classes being OP, its the content being too easy.
If a fight allows you to have a 100% uptime of spamming your most powerful attacks that just means the fight is designed bad.
I think the problem with raids currently is that they allow you to take whatever class you want and still be able to beat it, there are no interesting class-specific mechanics that require you to take certain classes and not have access to all boons at all times,
something we did saw in dungeons where there was a 5 man cap

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Posted by: Thaddeus.4891

Thaddeus.4891

That just further proves my point that it isn’t the classes being OP, its the content being too easy.
If a fight allows you to have a 100% uptime of spamming your most powerful attacks that just means the fight is designed bad.
I think the problem with raids currently is that they allow you to take whatever class you want and still be able to beat it, there are no interesting class-specific mechanics that require you to take certain classes and not have access to all boons at all times,
something we did saw in dungeons where there was a 5 man cap

Well you have two different points here. I’ll first start by posting that if you never saw it. I could never explain how bad power creep as better as they do. Not only for you to see, but for people in general. It’s always a nice video to show people
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bxszx60ZwGw

1) You are saying that professions aren’t OP, it’s the content that is too easy. I would say that it’s both. Take for exemple dungeons. Dungeon actually have a lot of mechanics. I remember that we used to hard time at Kholer and pugs were using the Troll so they fought each other instead of fighting them ourselves. Kholer was hard because he’s able to one shot us. We had to make sure to dodge his pull or to bring a break stun otherwise we were dead meat. Right now? He barely have time to do 1 attack and we explose him. Same with Alpha at CoE. It used to be hard, but now we just explode him. The worst is Lupi. Soloing him used to something special and several group used to have a hard time, now we just kill him so quickly that he doesn’t do that much damage back. So ya maybe some content is too easy, you are probably right. But the power creep just make things easier and easier. Just to give you some numbers. My Guardian used to have a max dps of around 8k dps at launch with full buff and exotic gear. Now it’s 23K, but the old content is still the same, with enemies having still the same HP, the same toughness.

2) I only partially agree with you. I disagree on the profession specific mechanics. I think that’s it’s more healthy if you can bring different composition to beat a boss and are not obligated to bring specific profession. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying all composition can success like in dungeon. I’m saying, as long as you create a intelligent composition, it should work. Some being more efficient than other.

That said, you are right that raid left too much players just dpsing with nothing else to do. I absolutely LOVE sabetha when I do canons. I always have something else than dps to think about and each 2min I need to take care of my canon, etc. But when I’m not on the canon, it’s a bit less entertaining. At VG i’m on the Circle team, i’m the tank at Gorseval and i’m on the cannons at Sabetha, so personnally, I don’t have that problem. I always have something else to do than just DPS, so I find the raid perfect. But I don’t think that pushing all 10 person in the raid to do mechanics is the right thing.

I think that a better approach would be to bring more counter. I don’t want the dps gorup to just dps. I want them to counter the boss while doing it. What I’m talking about? I want bosses to have boons on a regular timer that you need to remove (not something stupid like in fractal where you boons get back faster that you can remove them). I want the boss to launch projectile so that we need to time reflect. I want more attack for the whole fight like the Blue Aoe at VG, the eggs at Gorseval and the debris at Sabetha that force people to dodge and get out of the way. I want more conditions so that we need condition removal. I think that’s the kind of stuff that an hard mode of the raid could have. I hope for a easy, normal and hardcore more of raid for everybody, but I doubt it will ever happen.

Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD

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Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

Again though at what point during those 3 years of balance did we not have “Power Creep”. It’s about the only way outside of gutting classes that Anet knows how to address balance. It’s never small numerical tweaks to bring all the roles in line with a desired base performance standard.

This is what i’m getting at here, you can say it’s bad and i’ll agree it’s bad but it’s what we have as far as balance goes. Take your pick something that’s ultimately fun for players, or a bunch of more of what’s going down in the mesmer subforum of complaints about how their class specialization got gutted and left for not.

Thaddeus already answered this nicely, but I just wanted to add a bit.

Your logic is flawed. You assume (correctly at this point) that players enjoy buffs more than nerfs. That is correct. You further assume that this extends to the game in general, and that is where you are wrong. While players might enjoy classes being brought on par via buffs instead of ners, the resulting powercreep makes the game as a whole easier, more boring and cuts enjoyment severly. Now most traditional MMOs counter this by making items obsolete or adding futher levels to the level cap thus reseting the power creep and starting the process anew. Both of those don’t work in GW2 thus all people are left with is more and more obsolete content.

One could argue that what’s actually hampering enjoyment of the game isn’t the classes. It’s the lack of frequent meaningful updates. One can even take the recent Shatter Rework as proof of this. Multiple maps were filled and people are out there doing it more frequently because of changes to it.

If we look back at the games history we can see this is fairly common, infact one would argue more so in bringing players back to doing old “trivial” content than any single balance update ever could.

So to argue that content being easier and trivial due to balance while technically correct isn’t the only reason for it being trivial lest we want to forget that age and repetition also kill content.

Oh I absolutely agree. Now if you could explain how this point relates to balance and power creep changes?

Ever heard the proverb:“Two wrongs don’t make a right?”

Just because the game is lacking meaningful, consistent upgrades of fresh content does not mean that balance and power creep should get out of hand. Just as repetition of content and experience, while also responsible for eventually making the game easier, do not justify power creep. It’s just two sides to a coin which both need to be adressed.

Now if you are arguing that class buffs should work as short term “fun boosts and motivators” for players, sure that would work. I agreed with you on the fact that buffs in general are fun for players. Unfortunately I disagree that this is anything else than a short term solution, since the medium and longterm effects, as explained earlier, have a negative effect on the games enjoyment.

The TL;DR i’m making here if you will is neither solution is healthy, but i’d rather if given the option take the power creep as the content is already trivial for most raiders / raiding guilds in the short term.

In the long term i’d like to see a shift away from the current raid design, and more emphasis be put on player/mob interaction (similar to what thad said above) and less on the traditionally hit it harder till its dead approach. A refresh on the mechanics that allow from more distinct play patterns to emerge is always the better option for any content imo.

Raid : Condi reaper and Daredevil too OP

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Posted by: Cyninja.2954

Cyninja.2954

The TL;DR i’m making here if you will is neither solution is healthy, but i’d rather if given the option take the power creep as the content is already trivial for most raiders / raiding guilds in the short term.

Again, this is not about “raiders” or non-raiders. It’s about a way of approaching game design and developement. GW2 does not allow for big bursts of power creep. You either introduce power creep and makes parts of the game obsolete or you keep powerlevels constant and try to redesign the game on this level.

In the long term i’d like to see a shift away from the current raid design, and more emphasis be put on player/mob interaction (similar to what thad said above) and less on the traditionally hit it harder till its dead approach. A refresh on the mechanics that allow from more distinct play patterns to emerge is always the better option for any content imo.

That is the exact opposite of power creep. You can’t first make content obsolete by inrtoducing power creep, then redesign it. Well technically you could if you are willing to redesign the entire pve content there is (much like Blizzard did with Cataclysm where they redesign big parts of the vanilla world). That would be so expensive though that the more sensible approach is to keep power creep in check and redesign off of that – ergo classes that are to powerful need to get nerfed instead others buffed. Unless you’ve had a huge update and all the classes are severly underpowered compared to the current pve content, then you could bring the weaker ones up.

Raid : Condi reaper and Daredevil too OP

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Posted by: Thaddeus.4891

Thaddeus.4891

The TL;DR i’m making here if you will is neither solution is healthy, but i’d rather if given the option take the power creep as the content is already trivial for most raiders / raiding guilds in the short term.

In the long term i’d like to see a shift away from the current raid design, and more emphasis be put on player/mob interaction (similar to what thad said above) and less on the traditionally hit it harder till its dead approach. A refresh on the mechanics that allow from more distinct play patterns to emerge is always the better option for any content imo.

Again see, you talk about another issue completely. We were talking about power creep and you talk about increasing the complexity of mechanics. Those are two different issues.

You are right that the game will always need more complex players/mobs interaction. But that doesn’t change the fact that continuing to increase the power creep will continue to make the game easier and easier and make content obsolete.

A good design would to keep the power creep in check as much as possible AND to increase the complexity of the mechanics or interaction between players and mobs to modulate the difficulty of content. Less mechanics = easier content, More mechanics = challenging content. We pretty much agreeing here I think.

Thaddeauz [xQCx]- QC GUILD

Raid : Condi reaper and Daredevil too OP

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Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

The TL;DR i’m making here if you will is neither solution is healthy, but i’d rather if given the option take the power creep as the content is already trivial for most raiders / raiding guilds in the short term.

Again, this is not about “raiders” or non-raiders. It’s about a way of approaching game design and developement. GW2 does not allow for big bursts of power creep. You either introduce power creep and makes parts of the game obsolete or you keep powerlevels constant and try to redesign the game on this level.

In the long term i’d like to see a shift away from the current raid design, and more emphasis be put on player/mob interaction (similar to what thad said above) and less on the traditionally hit it harder till its dead approach. A refresh on the mechanics that allow from more distinct play patterns to emerge is always the better option for any content imo.

That is the exact opposite of power creep. You can’t first make content obsolete by inrtoducing power creep, then redesign it. Well technically you could if you are willing to redesign the entire pve content there is (much like Blizzard did with Cataclysm where they redesign big parts of the vanilla world). That would be so expensive though that the more sensible approach is to keep power creep in check and redesign off of that – ergo classes that are to powerful need to get nerfed instead others buffed. Unless you’ve had a huge update and all the classes are severly underpowered compared to the current pve content, then you could bring the weaker ones up.

I don’t think you’re quite grasping it. Given 2 evil’s of Power Creep or Constantly horrible balance cycles involving nothing but nerf bats, while not addressing the route of the problem (mechanical complexity) i’ll take power creep. This is my personal opinion while being fully aware power creep is bad.

What i’d rather see is changes to the current raids design. It is ultimately too simplistic, which causes certain outliers as far as DPS specific power creep is concerned. This will help in addressing the perceived notion of power creep because you wont be incentivized to take 3-4x (top dps classes) as they may or may not be useful in the content.

As is, people are already saying “raids” are easy… So really what’s the harm in them being “easier”, especially given there’s a new release coming in the next 3 months time ?

Raid : Condi reaper and Daredevil too OP

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Cyninja.2954

Cyninja.2954

The TL;DR i’m making here if you will is neither solution is healthy, but i’d rather if given the option take the power creep as the content is already trivial for most raiders / raiding guilds in the short term.

Again, this is not about “raiders” or non-raiders. It’s about a way of approaching game design and developement. GW2 does not allow for big bursts of power creep. You either introduce power creep and makes parts of the game obsolete or you keep powerlevels constant and try to redesign the game on this level.

In the long term i’d like to see a shift away from the current raid design, and more emphasis be put on player/mob interaction (similar to what thad said above) and less on the traditionally hit it harder till its dead approach. A refresh on the mechanics that allow from more distinct play patterns to emerge is always the better option for any content imo.

That is the exact opposite of power creep. You can’t first make content obsolete by inrtoducing power creep, then redesign it. Well technically you could if you are willing to redesign the entire pve content there is (much like Blizzard did with Cataclysm where they redesign big parts of the vanilla world). That would be so expensive though that the more sensible approach is to keep power creep in check and redesign off of that – ergo classes that are to powerful need to get nerfed instead others buffed. Unless you’ve had a huge update and all the classes are severly underpowered compared to the current pve content, then you could bring the weaker ones up.

I don’t think you’re quite grasping it. Given 2 evil’s of Power Creep or Constantly horrible balance cycles involving nothing but nerf bats, while not addressing the route of the problem (mechanical complexity) i’ll take power creep. This is my personal opinion while being fully aware power creep is bad.

What i’d rather see is changes to the current raids design. It is ultimately too simplistic, which causes certain outliers as far as DPS specific power creep is concerned. This will help in addressing the perceived notion of power creep because you wont be incentivized to take 3-4x (top dps classes) as they may or may not be useful in the content.

As is, people are already saying “raids” are easy… So really what’s the harm in them being “easier”, especially given there’s a new release coming in the next 3 months time ?

I fully understand what you mean, just that your argumantation is still flawed.

First you’d have to prove that balance is so bad that it merits this kind of drastic shortterm solution.

Second you’d have to argue that the balance problem could be solved with power creep, which is even harder to do if you proved that balance so far has been terrible (since if arenanet hasn’t been able to balance decently now, how will they in the future). Thus your “solution” of using power creep to keep players happy has nothing to do with balance. It would simply be a rotation of increasing power of classes to keep players happy without actually helping or fixing balance issues.

Result: the problems stay as they are with just constant breaks between which class gets to be on top now due to overbuffing instead of nerfing. The game as a whole suffers in the medium and long run since we essentially start a buffing armsrace until no content remains playable.