Raid Diversity is now Dead
Thanks to this new balance patch, raid diversity is effectively dead.
Necromancer can not out put anywhere near mediocre ele DPS, and so, is irrelevant.
Heralds were weak as-is, now they’re worthless.
Chronomancer was so demanding that now it’s effectively dead too.
Engineer? Lmao.
Thieves? Just get an elementalist.
Guardians? Never really saw the light of day with raids.
Anything but magi druid? Lmao kick.It seems like anet wants raids to not be harder, but simply more annoying and less enjoyable from a class perspective. It also seems like anet is back on the “we love eles” train, considering they’re pretty much going to be the only DPS class that sees action (thieves are generally subpar).
A lot of my friends threw in the towel as far as raiding goes (we already have 150+, they were just fun but now they’ll be significantly less so), chronotanks and necros, crap, nobody received this patch well because all of the classes (save guardian a LITTLE, and Engineer) had their own place and niche.
I still can’t believe chrono took such a hard hit over WvW. No one thought to split balance? Why can’t they revert these changes and do them right? Is anet actually understaffed or something? It makes no sense how so little is being done with the community of such a giant, profitable game.
When no specific profession is required, then balance shall be obtained. Maybe. Maybe not.
/flameshield
~EW
All the PvE players, screaming for roles, demanding that the berserker meta is the devil and support should be made viable, while the entirety of the PvP and WvW communities spoke out against the notion of roles and buffing support because it’d break the game.
So they buffed supports and as expected, the game broke.
But there was still a hard meta and exclusivity in PvE/Raids because the optimal performers/comps were discovered. Chrono+Rev was so strong it was a mandatory requirement for pretty much every group. Everyone else got upset. What happened to the prospect of organized play, and difficult content? Yea, it didn’t exist; groups were clearing raids with just two revs and a mesmer. The meta changed, but nothing more. There just happened to house more classes that had some excuse for use in a very strict build or role. But the actual build diversity? It was never there.
So they “fix” the game modes that got actually broken by the badly-designed elites/support concepts, and people are back to whining about how there’s no diversity.
There never was diversity, and there never will be. There will always be a mathematical optimum. That will always be and stay the meta in PvE until nerfs/buffs happen and some other profession/role/identifier is thrown under the bus to the benefit of another. People keep failing to recognize this. That’s why the game is play-however-you-want, and why raids can’t be super-ultra-role-focused. Because that entire concept is a strict meta which kills diversity. It’s only convenience if your preferred style of play/role is in demand at that time. Otherwise, diversity in PvE is a mythical, impossible thing to have in this game, and the entire existence of a meta is solely to blame on the community for wanting to clear faster than clear consistently.
Really, if you want to talk about a poor job, talk about the PvP formats, which despite the “balance” are still totally and completely borked because ANet’s profession devs are so removed from them that they do not know how to tweak the professions or content to actually undo the poor design decisions they made when appeasing PvE players.
Formal Thief Elite Spec proposal:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/ES-Suggestion-The-Deadeye-FORMAL/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/ES-Suggestion-The-Deadeye-FORMAL/
-snip-
Things should all have their niches and high points, saying all classes should be capable of all of the same things is quite silly.
-snip-
Things should all have their niches and high points, saying all classes should be capable of all of the same things is quite silly.
And that’s not what I typed, nor implied. Professions should have their niches, strengths, and high points, but that doesn’t mean any of those should always be required. There should be more than one way to skin a Gorseval.
~EW
[pedantry intensifies]
Running into a raid with 10 engineers should not work for obvious reasons.
The need for healing and dedicated healing is present. A need for buffs that make a certain class viable is also present.
The fact roles exist and some classes fail to fit that role is not a lack of diversity, it’s simply stupid. Raids were not “play how you want” they were “play the best strategically.” Raids have a great deal of diversity. The nullification of two, three more classes from the raid scene, or simply making them even weaker than they were, is nothing short of dumbness.
Having a healer thief with an engineer pulling aggro in cleric’s gear while you have 5 nomad warriors and 3 soldier’s necromancers should not get you through raids. Sorry.
-snip-
Things should all have their niches and high points, saying all classes should be capable of all of the same things is quite silly.
And that’s not what I typed, nor implied. There should be more than one way to skin a Gorseval.
~EW
There is. I’ve done no updraft kills without chronomancers, with engineers (power scrappers too), like 5 hammer guardians. There are many ways to skin a gorseval. Don’t slash the ankles of what works to fill a certain niche in such a staggeringly stupid manner as to simply make an entire class worth entirely less than another (necro).
One guy even had warband support man.
It comes down to the players, not the game. They’re changing the game however, for 0 reason.
These changes were entirely backward. Buff, not nerf, other classes.
-snip-
Things should all have their niches and high points, saying all classes should be capable of all of the same things is quite silly.
And that’s not what I typed, nor implied. Professions should have their niches, strengths, and high points, but that doesn’t mean any of those should always be required. There should be more than one way to skin a Gorseval.
~EW
And that could certainly be made to happen – the thing is – even if there were 3, 5 or 10 ways to skin a Gorseval it would not matter.
They could not be the exact same way because then they would not be distinct.
And if they are distinct then ONE has to be easier. And that will be the meta – and the rest won’t matter as far as PUGs are concerned at least.
So then – where is the diversity?
You can 6 man VG – so technically ANY comp can beat it most likely – but how many crazy comps have you seen at VG?
The theoretical possibility is there – and people just don’t care. They go with what works best.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
[pedantry intensifies]
Running into a raid with 10 engineers should not work for obvious reasons.
Actually, it’s not obvious … if you’re an advocate for diversity like your thread title indicates, why shouldn’t you be able to run a raid with 10 engineers? That would indicate a huge level of diversity IMO … with the ability of any specific profession filling many roles adequately. I can’t think of a more diverse situation than having many professions having the ability to choose the role they want to fill in a raid. I think the changes actually go a long way from pigeonholing any specific profession into a specific role. If the changes make the given professions less desirable, then they are equalized among their peers. That is a positive move to diversity.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
Just shows how much you actually know about raid diversity lol. Rly chrono dead? We ran double chrono tonight and DPS is near exactly the same as 4/4/2. Try getting that without quickness lol. Similarly DH is great in this meta, even better than it was in the last one since more alacrity from double chrono.
It does completely push out rev, daredevil and reaper tho. The rest is absolutely fine.
Hittting only the Chrono/Revenant because of Quickness is extremely hypocrital. Warriors fart Might to himself and 5 more every hit plus banners, Druids increase party DPS just by existing with Spotter and Grace of the Land while still being able to heal. These are fine and weren’t ever touched, Chrono and Revenant had something nice? Nerf it!
Why is ot okay for other classes to easily generate 100% uptime on the buffs that impact the DPS the most but Chronos and Revenants cannot be part of this? Their individual DPS was already pretty low, what did they get in exchange for their nerfed utility? Chrono a 6% sword damage increase and the Blurred Frenzy buff that’s not very impactful in the overall DPS, Revenant got literally nothing.
If you guys call this balance then I don’t know what to say.
(edited by nsleep.7839)
Balance patch notes, they’re just not complete without a truckload of hyperbole.
Relentless Inquisition [PAIN] – FA
Hittting only the Chrono/Revenant because of Quickness is extremely hypocrital. Warriors fart Might to himself and 5 more every hit, Druids increase party DPS just by existing with Spotter and Grace of the Land while still being able to heal. These are fine and weren’t ever touched, Chrono and Revenant had something nice? Nerf it!
Why is ot okay for other classes to easily generate 100% uptime on the buffs that impact the DPS the most but Chronos and Revenants cannot be part of this? Their individual DPS was already pretty low, what did they get in exchange for their nerfed utility? Chrono a 6% sword damage increase and the Blurred Frenzy buff that’s not very impactful in the overall DPS, Revenant got literally nothing.
If you guys call this balance then I don’t know what to say.
TBF neither of those classes can keep the uptime on 10 players by themselves. Chrono could. Now it’s normalized compared to the others, still 100% uptime on a 5 man pt. Don’t get me wrong I’m not overjoyed at the exclusion of so many classes, but the example is kinda… well wrong.
Hittting only the Chrono/Revenant because of Quickness is extremely hypocrital. Warriors fart Might to himself and 5 more every hit, Druids increase party DPS just by existing with Spotter and Grace of the Land while still being able to heal. These are fine and weren’t ever touched, Chrono and Revenant had something nice? Nerf it!
Why is ot okay for other classes to easily generate 100% uptime on the buffs that impact the DPS the most but Chronos and Revenants cannot be part of this? Their individual DPS was already pretty low, what did they get in exchange for their nerfed utility? Chrono a 6% sword damage increase and the Blurred Frenzy buff that’s not very impactful in the overall DPS, Revenant got literally nothing.
If you guys call this balance then I don’t know what to say.
TBF neither of those classes can keep the uptime on 10 players by themselves. Chrono could. Now it’s normalized compared to the others, still 100% uptime on a 5 man pt. Don’t get me wrong I’m not overjoyed at the exclusion of so many classes, but the example is kinda… well wrong.
My groups usually runs 7/2/1, a good Warrior can keep might on all 7 of his group and deal decent damage while at it, and one of the Druids work as a bit of condi DPS+support+offhealer. It’s not as simple because Chrono and Revenant were basically boonbots and support to break bars in case they are needed (they’re not, except in emergencies.)
Has anyone actually raided with the pre-update meta? Is there a significant difference from what you have noticed?
Hittting only the Chrono/Revenant because of Quickness is extremely hypocrital. Warriors fart Might to himself and 5 more every hit, Druids increase party DPS just by existing with Spotter and Grace of the Land while still being able to heal. These are fine and weren’t ever touched, Chrono and Revenant had something nice? Nerf it!
Why is ot okay for other classes to easily generate 100% uptime on the buffs that impact the DPS the most but Chronos and Revenants cannot be part of this? Their individual DPS was already pretty low, what did they get in exchange for their nerfed utility? Chrono a 6% sword damage increase and the Blurred Frenzy buff that’s not very impactful in the overall DPS, Revenant got literally nothing.
If you guys call this balance then I don’t know what to say.
TBF neither of those classes can keep the uptime on 10 players by themselves. Chrono could. Now it’s normalized compared to the others, still 100% uptime on a 5 man pt. Don’t get me wrong I’m not overjoyed at the exclusion of so many classes, but the example is kinda… well wrong.
My groups usually runs 7/2/1, a good Warrior can keep might on all 7 of his group and deal decent damage while at it, and one of the Druids work as a bit of condi DPS+support+offhealer. It’s not as simple because Chrono and Revenant were basically boonbots and support to break bars in case they are needed (they’re not, except in emergencies.)
The warrior could do this with the help of soi of the chrono. Even then, it wasn’t consistently capped. Try doing it now post-patch. Chrono is still a boon bot, you’re just pretty much forced to take 2 now.
Hittting only the Chrono/Revenant because of Quickness is extremely hypocrital. Warriors fart Might to himself and 5 more every hit, Druids increase party DPS just by existing with Spotter and Grace of the Land while still being able to heal. These are fine and weren’t ever touched, Chrono and Revenant had something nice? Nerf it!
Why is ot okay for other classes to easily generate 100% uptime on the buffs that impact the DPS the most but Chronos and Revenants cannot be part of this? Their individual DPS was already pretty low, what did they get in exchange for their nerfed utility? Chrono a 6% sword damage increase and the Blurred Frenzy buff that’s not very impactful in the overall DPS, Revenant got literally nothing.
If you guys call this balance then I don’t know what to say.
TBF neither of those classes can keep the uptime on 10 players by themselves. Chrono could. Now it’s normalized compared to the others, still 100% uptime on a 5 man pt. Don’t get me wrong I’m not overjoyed at the exclusion of so many classes, but the example is kinda… well wrong.
Chrono can’t do all squad quickness.
PS can might and druid can solo heal, however.
[pedantry intensifies]
Running into a raid with 10 engineers should not work for obvious reasons.
The need for healing and dedicated healing is present. A need for buffs that make a certain class viable is also present.
The fact roles exist and some classes fail to fit that role is not a lack of diversity, it’s simply stupid. Raids were not “play how you want” they were “play the best strategically.” Raids have a great deal of diversity. The nullification of two, three more classes from the raid scene, or simply making them even weaker than they were, is nothing short of dumbness.
Having a healer thief with an engineer pulling aggro in cleric’s gear while you have 5 nomad warriors and 3 soldier’s necromancers should not get you through raids. Sorry.
Really? Because that’s highly contradictory to the entire basis for wanting raids and speaking out against the berserker dungeon meta, which is why most people pushed for raids. See, the berserker dungeon meta was exactly the result of people playing strategically and optimally. Call it mindless, but devising the concept of stacking was something that people had to organize and develop. If you played around the early stages of the game, absolutely nobody did it. It gradually caught on because it was a viable tactic. And so was running full glass. It’s Anet’s lack of response to changing dungeons for years that let it get stale, rather than an inherent need for raids.
And these tactics were preserved because the intent behind them was to maximize reward per unit of time. There’s a video somewhere of a healing power warrior facetank soloing Lupi, no reflects, no real skill use, just eating the damage and hitting. If the normal dungeon was designed to provide constant difficult fights like lupi (excluding cheese solutions like reflects etc), do you think there would have been more tanks in the dungeon meta? I do. I do because I think they would have saved pug groups time on average and made runs more consistent; it’d only take one tank to carry a run. What about survival encounters, but really brutal ones, like CoF where instead of elites, everything that spawned was a champion. Or a boss that started out ridiculously strong but got exponentially weaker as time went on?
But they wouldn’t and shouldn’t have been a requirement to complete the content, either. Like the berserker meta, the prior raid meta, and the next raid meta, all such metas are and should be designated entirely by the players. You can take 10 bunker druids into a raid and clear it. It’s mathematically possible to do so except maybe one or two bosses, and even many of the timed ones can still be completed this way. But there’s a huge fixation on certain comps because people want to find the most efficient way of clearing the content now that it’s been figured out, or simply take the words from the pros (who do the aforementioned) and copy them for best results.
And as far as roles and designated requirements and optimizations go, many argue that forcing those kind of requirements is what should define a well-designed raid. I don’t, but consider why we have raids and who wanted them. Those demanding roles did. You just mentioned one instance of an optimal party group applying to all raids. That’s not good encounter design. That in it of itself has just as much diversity as any other possibility, since any given point in time, there will only be one combination to perhaps fulfill, which may result in convenience for those who like to play those roles.
If pursuing the optimum is all that matters like you said, then these kinds of changes should be preferential, actually, since shaking up the meta requires people to figure things out again. There will be to some degree experimentation. I’m not suggesting the specific implmentation ANet made here was good – far to the contrary, actually, as I think they did an absolutely abysmal job for a featured balance patch – but being upset the meta changed is literally a fallacy unless there was true diversity beforehand, which there clearly was not, and is seen in the professional world of game development as a pragmatic impossibility.
I’m not being pedantic but trying to get people to wake up and realize that there’s never actually going to be a balanced meta in PvE, and asking for perfection and diversity while criticizing a change in the meta is a fallacy in itself.
That’s why one can be upset with PvP/WvW changes to balance, because these player-driven encounters have metas which have the capacity to evolve without ANet intervening. Frankly, it’s when these things don’t change on their own, that ANet is failing. And these things aren’t, which means there are indeed fundamental flaws in design and implementation game-wide.
Formal Thief Elite Spec proposal:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/ES-Suggestion-The-Deadeye-FORMAL/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/ES-Suggestion-The-Deadeye-FORMAL/
Hittting only the Chrono/Revenant because of Quickness is extremely hypocrital. Warriors fart Might to himself and 5 more every hit, Druids increase party DPS just by existing with Spotter and Grace of the Land while still being able to heal. These are fine and weren’t ever touched, Chrono and Revenant had something nice? Nerf it!
Why is ot okay for other classes to easily generate 100% uptime on the buffs that impact the DPS the most but Chronos and Revenants cannot be part of this? Their individual DPS was already pretty low, what did they get in exchange for their nerfed utility? Chrono a 6% sword damage increase and the Blurred Frenzy buff that’s not very impactful in the overall DPS, Revenant got literally nothing.
If you guys call this balance then I don’t know what to say.
TBF neither of those classes can keep the uptime on 10 players by themselves. Chrono could. Now it’s normalized compared to the others, still 100% uptime on a 5 man pt. Don’t get me wrong I’m not overjoyed at the exclusion of so many classes, but the example is kinda… well wrong.
Chrono can’t do all squad quickness.
PS can might and druid can solo heal, however.
We were talking about boons, not heals. PS and druid can’t keep might/gotl/other buffs on a whole squad. This is the entire reason 7/2/1 was lower dps than 4/4/2 where you would take 2 PS warr and 2 druid.
If pursuing the optimum is all that matters like you said, then these kinds of changes should be preferential, actually, since shaking up the meta requires people to figure things out again. There will be to some degree experimentation. I’m not suggesting the specific implmentation ANet made here was good – far to the contrary, actually, as I think they did an absolutely abysmal job for a featured balance patch – but being upset the meta changed is literally a fallacy unless there was true diversity beforehand, which there clearly was not, and is seen in the professional world of game development as a pragmatic impossibility.
This is 100% correct and I would like to add that I (and presumably others) think that major changes like these also just make the game more fun. Even if the game were already perfectly balanced I would still want major shakeups like this because it forces you to actually think again rather than using the same crap someone figured out six months ago.
SNIP
The manner of your typing is what’s pedantic. You say 10 words in 10 sentences. Brevity=soul of wit, blabla.
SNIP
The manner of your typing is what’s pedantic. You say 10 words in 10 sentences. Brevity=soul of wit, blabla.
I’m not trying to be witty or entertaining. I’m trying to prove a point.
One does not prove anything without an extensive explanation. Otherwise the reader ends up either unmoved if rightfully skeptical or foolishly believing someone for no reason. I’d like to assume those reading what I have to say either are or would rather be in the former group.
Formal Thief Elite Spec proposal:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/ES-Suggestion-The-Deadeye-FORMAL/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/ES-Suggestion-The-Deadeye-FORMAL/
And as far as roles and designated requirements and optimizations go, many argue that forcing those kind of requirements is what should define a well-designed raid. I don’t, but consider why we have raids and who wanted them. Those demanding roles did. You just mentioned one instance of an optimal party group applying to all raids. That’s not good encounter design. That in it of itself has just as much diversity as any other possibility, since any given point in time, there will only be one combination to perhaps fulfill, which may result in convenience for those who like to play those roles.
We may have no classic trinity Tank/Healer/DPS in GW2, but here we have different raid roles. Examples of GW2 raid roles are “Quickness provider” and “Might provider” and each can be performed well by only 1 class/spec. Now that is a problem: role can only be fulfilled by 1 class/spec. That’s a very poor design. Also Tempest is the only viable DPS class for KC due to Tempest Defense trait – very poor design.
Sure, we have a lot of diversity in some classic roles because literally anyone can tank and even healers deal damage. But unique GW2 roles aren’t properly covered and they should be.
TBF neither of those classes can keep the uptime on 10 players by themselves. Chrono could. Now it’s normalized compared to the others, still 100% uptime on a 5 man pt. Don’t get me wrong I’m not overjoyed at the exclusion of so many classes, but the example is kinda… well wrong.
Maybe all of them should be able to buff 10 people all the time to remove double-chrono, double-ps, double-druid meta and average 1.11 spots per raid for every profession. Or if not they should just let some other profession provide mentioned buffs.
(edited by AndyS.5630)
All the PvE players, screaming for roles, demanding that the berserker meta is the devil and support should be made viable
Erm, i’m afraid you are mixing different suggestions from different sources together. Raid crowd mostly (thought not all) did ask for required roles, to mirror their prior games raid experience, but Raiders are not “all the PvE players”. Most of the PvE crowd didn’t like dps meta not because they wanted other roles to be required, they just wanted them to be useful (so you could choose what to play). Creating obligatory support roles and dedicated healers was the exact opposite of that.
There never was diversity, and there never will be. There will always be a mathematical optimum.
Sure. What is important however is how much that optimum is better than its contenders.
And that’s not what I typed, nor implied. Professions should have their niches, strengths, and high points, but that doesn’t mean any of those should always be required. There should be more than one way to skin a Gorseval.
Exactly.
Unfortunately, Raids strongly promote optimizing DPS output over all other options.
Running into a raid with 10 engineers should not work for obvious reasons.
And those “obvious” reasons are?
And that could certainly be made to happen – the thing is – even if there were 3, 5 or 10 ways to skin a Gorseval it would not matter.
They could not be the exact same way because then they would not be distinct.
And if they are distinct then ONE has to be easier. And that will be the meta – and the rest won’t matter as far as PUGs are concerned at least.
Yes, one should be easiest. One should be fastest. Those two however should never be the same. That way, there would be multiple meta options, depending on group goals. One option would be picked if the group would just want to complete the encounter as safely as possible, another if they wanted to do it fast, another if they were after certain achieve, and few others if the group wanted to mix those goals.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
SNIP
The manner of your typing is what’s pedantic. You say 10 words in 10 sentences. Brevity=soul of wit, blabla.
I don’t think people are being ‘non-brevious’ to avoid being witty. It’s not clear to people how you come to your conclusion about diversity dying … because of class equalizations. Diversity dies when people only want specific classes, which is what was happening due to OP’ed combos of effects. Anet reversed that … diversity should AT LEAST stay the same.
SNIP
The manner of your typing is what’s pedantic. You say 10 words in 10 sentences. Brevity=soul of wit, blabla.
I don’t think people are being ‘non-brevious’ to avoid being witty. It’s not clear to people how you come to your conclusion about diversity dying … because of class equalizations. Diversity dies when people only want specific classes, which is what was happening due to OP’ed combos of effects. Anet reversed that … diversity should AT LEAST stay the same.
It doesn’t rly tbh because of how OP quickness is, and all other boons tbh. Not taking the buff classes (warr, druid, chrono) puts you at a severe disadvantage. It’s very much worth stacking them. So by nerfing chrono all they did was giving them an extra spot on a raid group.
In the last meta you had more flexibility. You only needed 1 chrono which made room for another support class, the revenant. Furthermore because of how OP soi was you could run with minimal buff classes (7/2/1 comp) and still smash things. Not to mention DH, ele, reaper and daredevil were roughly at the same level dps-wise. The only one who was rly suffering was engi, and that was more due to complexity than anything else.
At the very least this change kicked out the rev. Its unique support (assassin’s presence) is not enough to be equal to a warrior’s easy 25 might stacks, empowered allies and banners. As a healer there’s no way it beats a druid with spotter, spirits, glyph of empowerment, gotl and on top of that it can stack fury just as well as the rev can. Chrono is a no-brainer tbh, 100% uptime on quickness is too good to pass up and they have alacrity as a bonus.
The nerf to reaper also seems to have gutted them dps-wise. I’ll wait on the verdict of more experienced reapers but it’s not looking good.
Daredevil doesn’t have much useful utility and with a double chrono comp ele will be higher dps again because of alacrity. DH dps also rises quite a bit with more alacrity and their utility is much more useful. This all puts the class at a disadvantage compared to the other 2. In last meta they still didn’t have great utility, but at least they were top dps.
. So by nerfing chrono all they did was giving them an extra spot on a raid group.
In the last meta you had more flexibility. You only needed 1 chrono which made room for another support class, the revenant. .
Pretty much this. Now pugs in particular are going to be 5/5 or gtfo. So no room for engies, rev, thieves, guard and in some cases Reapers. Why would you do something that results in half of the games classes being unwanted for flagship content? LOL it’s very very poorly thought through.
Pugs not allowing DH though is just kittened. They’re a solid class and the meta change only buffed them compared to last meta.
RIP rev, necro and mesmer. 2015-2016 a year of not being complete garbage for once.
RIP rev, necro and mesmer. 2015-2016 a year of not being complete garbage for once.
Well ironically mesmers will be even MORE in demand because you will now need 2 per raid! Most groups won’t want to give up the quickness. So as someone said, this patch basically made bringing a rev pointless.
RIP rev, necro and mesmer. 2015-2016 a year of not being complete garbage for once.
Well ironically mesmers will be even MORE in demand because you will now need 2 per raid! Most groups won’t want to give up the quickness. So as someone said, this patch basically made bringing a rev pointless.
I doubt we’ll even bring 1, if one is bad now, why would we bring 2, dps will be too low.
Maybe all of them should be able to buff 10 people all the time to remove double-chrono, double-ps, double-druid meta and average 1.11 spots per raid for every profession. Or if not they should just let some other profession provide mentioned buffs.
Basically a lot of ppl asked them to do that pre-HoT. Their official stance is, for now at least, that they’d have to balance the raids entirely around this god comp making any other combination unviable.
Ironically with this balance patch they did something rather similar, where kitten comp will just far outshine most everything else. It just has room for far less classes lol.
RIP rev, necro and mesmer. 2015-2016 a year of not being complete garbage for once.
Well ironically mesmers will be even MORE in demand because you will now need 2 per raid! Most groups won’t want to give up the quickness. So as someone said, this patch basically made bringing a rev pointless.
I doubt we’ll even bring 1, if one is bad now, why would we bring 2, dps will be too low.
lolwat 5-5 comp dps is similar to the old 4-4-2. It’s in fact the other way around. Only bringing one or none is gonna be far more punishing.
If you don’t believe me check qT’s latest xera kill video on hater’s channel. It’s a 4:20-4:30 ish kill which is comparable to prepatch.
Nobody brought a chrono for dps lol, it was always alacrity/quickness which will now be covered by 2 chronos and no revs. RIP REV, already a weak class after sword 2/auto nerfs but pretty much useless now.
FOR THE GREEEEEEEEEEEEN
Guardians and Eles are still fine for DPS classes.
Thieves and Engis are both still viable but are a lot less desirable with the changes.
Revenant is pretty much out now.
Guardians and Eles are still fine for DPS classes.
Thieves and Engis are both still viable but are a lot less desirable with the changes.
Revenant is pretty much out now.
How are engis less wanted? They heavily benefit from alacrity and with reaper nerfs and some minor engi buffs I sincerely doubt they’ll have a bad position in the current meta. At the very least, at bosses where it’s nice to have a condi class.
And if they are distinct then ONE has to be easier. And that will be the meta – and the rest won’t matter as far as PUGs are concerned at least.
That’s not how people behave. If there are 10 builds and one is far superior to the others, then of course it will become meta. But if one is 1% more efficient and the second is 20% more fun and the third is 30% easier to play, then the most skilled will gravitate towards the first, while others will gravitate towards the other two.
Meta isn’t defined to be the most efficient possible build; it’s just the most popular and there are oodles of reasons for builds to be popular. One current example are MM necros in fractals: this isn’t efficient, but it’s highly effective especially when PUGging. That’s why so many people want to run 4 necros + a druid: it gets the job done quickly enough However, people who know fractals better can and will run entirely different comps.
tl;dr diversity and metas are more complicated than someone stating that “this build is best”.
I don’t happen to agree with the OP’s thesis either: we don’t know that raid diversity is dead until we give people 2-3 weeks to figure out what works, what’s fun, and what’s efficient. It took a while to establish the current meta and it will take a while for people to adapt to the current game. Of course, in the early days, people are going to do what they think is easiest, which will probably be less diverse than what we saw last week.
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
Maybe all of them should be able to buff 10 people all the time to remove double-chrono, double-ps, double-druid meta and average 1.11 spots per raid for every profession. Or if not they should just let some other profession provide mentioned buffs.
Basically a lot of ppl asked them to do that pre-HoT. Their official stance is, for now at least, that they’d have to balance the raids entirely around this god comp making any other combination unviable.
Ironically with this balance patch they did something rather similar, where kitten comp will just far outshine most everything else. It just has room for far less classes lol.
Well, there are several solutions. Including those I’ve already mentioned the main solutions I can think of are:
- Make chrono/ps/druid buff 10 people
- Make chrono/ps/druid buffs not so big, like 20% of pre-patch uptime
- Make some other classes provide the same buffs
As worth noting, last one was Blizzard’s choice back in 2008 when they had decided to have similar (de)buffs from different classes not stack with each other. This concept is partially present in GW2 thanks to generic boons and conditions, but there are still several unique buffs and even boons/conditions are too restricted to some classes. Blood Is Power is a good base to make condition necromancers might bots, why not just make it? Then it could be just that: PS for slightly more Might, Necro for slightly more personal DPS, with all combinations viable:
- 2 PS, 0 N
- 1 PS, 1 N
- 0 PS, 2 N
Now that is diversity: you can choose composition based on available players and their preferences. Of course it’s okay to require might bots, but I repeat: it’s not okay that only 1 class can be a real might bot.
(edited by AndyS.5630)
RIP rev, necro and mesmer. 2015-2016 a year of not being complete garbage for once.
Well ironically mesmers will be even MORE in demand because you will now need 2 per raid! Most groups won’t want to give up the quickness. So as someone said, this patch basically made bringing a rev pointless.
I doubt we’ll even bring 1, if one is bad now, why would we bring 2, dps will be too low.
You’re not bringing mes for their personal dps. You’re bringing them for their buffs, alacrity, quickness, boon share and invuls. Hence why they will always be needed. Now that they have been nerfed, the demand and need for those things has not gone away, people will now need TWO mesmers to cover what one used to be able to do.
Not only does this take up a space of another dps, it will also be a pain in lfg to get 2 mes. It’s like back to the old GW1 days – lf monk waits.
(edited by Mitch.4781)
Maybe all of them should be able to buff 10 people all the time to remove double-chrono, double-ps, double-druid meta and average 1.11 spots per raid for every profession. Or if not they should just let some other profession provide mentioned buffs.
Basically a lot of ppl asked them to do that pre-HoT. Their official stance is, for now at least, that they’d have to balance the raids entirely around this god comp making any other combination unviable.
Ironically with this balance patch they did something rather similar, where kitten comp will just far outshine most everything else. It just has room for far less classes lol.
Well, there are several solutions. Including those I’ve already mentioned the main solutions I can think of are:
- Make chrono/ps/druid buff 10 people
- Make chrono/ps/druid buffs not so big, like 20% of pre-patch uptime
- Make some other classes provide the same buffs
As worth noting, last one was Blizzard’s choice back in 2008 when they had decided to have similar (de)buffs from different classes not stack with each other. This concept is partially present in GW2 thanks to generic boons and conditions, but there are still several unique buffs and even boons/conditions are too restricted to some classes. Blood Is Power is a good base to make condition necromancers might bots, why not just make it? Then it could be just that: PS for slightly more Might, Necro for slightly more personal DPS, with all combinations viable:
- 2 PS, 0 N
- 1 PS, 1 N
- 0 PS, 2 N
Now that is diversity: you can choose composition based on available players and their preferences. Of course it’s okay to require might bots, but I repeat: it’s not okay that only 1 class can be a real might bot.
Even if other classes could stack the same amount of might you’re not gonna beat the effect banners and EA have.
RIP rev, necro and mesmer. 2015-2016 a year of not being complete garbage for once.
Well ironically mesmers will be even MORE in demand because you will now need 2 per raid! Most groups won’t want to give up the quickness. So as someone said, this patch basically made bringing a rev pointless.
I doubt we’ll even bring 1, if one is bad now, why would we bring 2, dps will be too low.
You’re not bringing mes for their personal dps. You’re bringing them for their buffs, alacrity, quickness, boon share and invuls. Hence why they will always be needed. Now that they have been nerfed, the demand and need for those things has not gone away, people will now need TWO mesmers to cover what one used to be able to do.
Not only does this take up a space of another dps, it will also be a pain in lfg to get 2 mes. It’s like back to the old GW1 days – lf monk waits.
obviously, what i mean is you lose a dps spot to provide the same buffs as before, therefore overall partywide dps is lower
RIP rev, necro and mesmer. 2015-2016 a year of not being complete garbage for once.
Well ironically mesmers will be even MORE in demand because you will now need 2 per raid! Most groups won’t want to give up the quickness. So as someone said, this patch basically made bringing a rev pointless.
I doubt we’ll even bring 1, if one is bad now, why would we bring 2, dps will be too low.
You’re not bringing mes for their personal dps. You’re bringing them for their buffs, alacrity, quickness, boon share and invuls. Hence why they will always be needed. Now that they have been nerfed, the demand and need for those things has not gone away, people will now need TWO mesmers to cover what one used to be able to do.
Not only does this take up a space of another dps, it will also be a pain in lfg to get 2 mes. It’s like back to the old GW1 days – lf monk waits.
obviously, what i mean is you lose a dps spot to provide the same buffs as before, therefore overall partywide dps is lower
Not rly, you’re swapping one support for another. You hardly even notice it (except if you’re a rev main I guess).
RIP rev, necro and mesmer. 2015-2016 a year of not being complete garbage for once.
Well ironically mesmers will be even MORE in demand because you will now need 2 per raid! Most groups won’t want to give up the quickness. So as someone said, this patch basically made bringing a rev pointless.
I doubt we’ll even bring 1, if one is bad now, why would we bring 2, dps will be too low.
You’re not bringing mes for their personal dps. You’re bringing them for their buffs, alacrity, quickness, boon share and invuls. Hence why they will always be needed. Now that they have been nerfed, the demand and need for those things has not gone away, people will now need TWO mesmers to cover what one used to be able to do.
Not only does this take up a space of another dps, it will also be a pain in lfg to get 2 mes. It’s like back to the old GW1 days – lf monk waits.
obviously, what i mean is you lose a dps spot to provide the same buffs as before, therefore overall partywide dps is lower
Sure, but it’ll be even LOWER if you don’t bring double chrono, since you lose quickness and alacrity.
Even if other classes could stack the same amount of might you’re not gonna beat the effect banners and EA have.
Obviously those should be covered by other classes as well.
Banner of Strength could be just pulsing 5 stacks of might.
Banner of Discipline = Spotter+Assassin’s Presence.
Anyway, 25 stacks of Might (750 P, 750 CD) is much more than banners and EA, so giving Might to someone else is a good start.
Even if other classes could stack the same amount of might you’re not gonna beat the effect banners and EA have.
Obviously those should be covered by other classes as well.
Banner of Strength could be just pulsing 5 stacks of might.
Banner of Discipline = Spotter+Assassin’s Presence.Anyway, 25 stacks of Might (750 P, 750 CD) is much more than banners and EA, so giving Might to someone else is a good start.
OR just bring back meta of before with some engi changes = pretty much perfect balance.
OR just bring back meta of before with some engi changes = pretty much perfect balance.
I would be 150% behind a complete revert of changes in this patch and giving them some time to actually look at the stuff that goes unused and buffing that.
As is the recent patch is pretty much a joke and shows a complete disconnect.
RIP rev, necro and mesmer. 2015-2016 a year of not being complete garbage for once.
Well ironically mesmers will be even MORE in demand because you will now need 2 per raid! Most groups won’t want to give up the quickness. So as someone said, this patch basically made bringing a rev pointless.
I doubt we’ll even bring 1, if one is bad now, why would we bring 2, dps will be too low.
You’re not bringing mes for their personal dps. You’re bringing them for their buffs, alacrity, quickness, boon share and invuls. Hence why they will always be needed. Now that they have been nerfed, the demand and need for those things has not gone away, people will now need TWO mesmers to cover what one used to be able to do.
Not only does this take up a space of another dps, it will also be a pain in lfg to get 2 mes. It’s like back to the old GW1 days – lf monk waits.
obviously, what i mean is you lose a dps spot to provide the same buffs as before, therefore overall partywide dps is lower
Not rly, you’re swapping one support for another. You hardly even notice it (except if you’re a rev main I guess).
I’m a rev main, and im salty AF
Can we please just have all buffs and boons applied to 10 players in pve? Like banners effect 10, grace of the land given to 10 players, quickness shared with 10 players, etc.
Right now, groups are going to start at 2 war, 2 druid, 2 mes, and that leaves 4 spots that are somewhat free to play with (exactly the same as previous 4-4-2 comp). If all skills just effected the whole party, we would only need 1 war 1 mes and 1 druid to cover the big offensive group buffs.
When we all proposed this idea pre-HOT Anet said they didn’t want to create a single super group necessary for raids, but look at how restrictive things are now.
Can we please just have all buffs and boons applied to 10 players in pve? Like banners effect 10, grace of the land given to 10 players, quickness shared with 10 players, etc.
Right now, groups are going to start at 2 war, 2 druid, 2 mes, and that leaves 4 spots that are somewhat free to play with (exactly the same as previous 4-4-2 comp). If all skills just effected the whole party, we would only need 1 war 1 mes and 1 druid to cover the big offensive group buffs.
When we all proposed this idea pre-HOT Anet said they didn’t want to create a single super group necessary for raids, but look at how restrictive things are now.
I doubt they’ll do this any time soon. Our dps would be way higher so all the previous content would have to be readjusted to fit this supercomp. Not saying they shouldn’t do it btw, just that it’s highly unrealistic at this point.
‘as if there ever was a raid diversity’