Guild Wars 2

/fixing forum bug

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Obtena, what you are not realizing is that all classes should be within reasonable range of each other in terms of efficiency and that there should be enough playroom while still being close enough to the optimal option.

Yes, that’s correct and that’s exactly why we see the changes we got in this patch … because there were a few classes that stood out from others, being picked because of specific skills that gave extreme results.

Ayrilana.1396:

Astralporing.1957:

Ayrilana.1396:

Has the bolded been proven? Most groups that I have seen/heard that fail do so well before the enrage timer because of the mechanics.

It’s not only those that fail on enrages. It’s those that win by pulling off that last % of damage when the most of the group is already dead. Seen quite a lot of videos of those – and i know that all those groups would have failed if they had even 1% less DPS.

Not sure what you’re trying to get at as I never talked about failing on enrages.

I’ll add into that post though. Everyone is using the exact same builds and team compositions that are meta because only meta build are meta. So with all other things the same, what separates groups like qT from an average pug group on TS?

Because like you saw in this thread, the people at the top actually understand the implications of changes like these and can identify where the problems are, while the majority of the PvE community freaks out when something gets oh so slightly nerfed; see: revenant discussion.

For those who keep crying over PvE neglect and profession balance because of “e-sports,” this was the first ever WvW-based patch; it wasn’t for sPvP. WvW has not had any amount of legitimate profession tweaking in the history of the game. Not once has any effort been made on behalf of professions to make WvW more fun and fair. As a WvW-centric player, you have absolutely no idea what that has been like.

I mean, we’re what, two days into Halloween and the PvE backlash from a festival warrants executive decisions made by the CEO to remove potentially-abusive mechanics like DR. Not getting attention in spite of WvW, when you have/had exploits like Druid being able to jump over keep walls for the better half of six months, totally breaking the game? Are you kidding me?
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Mad-King-s-Labyrinth-update/first#post6372596

And you know what? This patch was still pitifully poor for WvW because a huge number of changes didn’t go far enough. If they really wanted to balance the game as a whole, including sPvP, they’d have to up the raid timers and probably make them easier for the majority of pugs out there because DPS and damage reduction would plummet game-wide from the amount of support effects they’d need to nerf.

AndyS.5630:

Ayrilana.1396:

AndyS.5630:

In practice most groups need 2 Chronos, because otherwise most groups won’t have enough DPS to kill the boss.

Has the bolded been proven? Most groups that I have seen/heard that fail do so well before the enrage timer because of the mechanics.

That’s because most groups try to optimize their DPS before even trying and as such don’t reach the enrage timer in the first place. However, at least 80% of enrage cases I’ve participated in have been swift wipes (8-10 still alive people die in like 10 seconds). Those could be kills without hard enrage.

Wait .. he asked a specific question … do we have proof that the reason people fail raids is because they don’t have damage? It’s rhetorical anyways and here is why …

because the solution isn’t to have a predetermined combination of 2 classes to provide extreme boon sharing and duration effects to beat those raids … You can complain all you want about how this impacts raids, but the combination of these class effects is simply unreasonable in any situation to begin with.

Ayrilana.1396:

Dahkeus.8243:

Wanna raid in WoW? As long as you’re playing anything but Frost DK or Ele Shaman, you’re good to go (although Brewmaster Monk may also be on that list). However, there is at least one very strong spec on every single class and it’s usually more like 2-3.

Wanna raid in GW2? There’s a short list of builds desired for raids that doesn’t include 2 classes. Oh, and you’ll probably need to have an alt or two because of how much some fights favor one profession that’s dead weight on another fight.

And how many non-meta builds are almost as effective as meta builds?.

That’s still a pretty short list, especially when you consider how many traits and skills are in the game. Sadly, so much of what is given to professions is completely useless or only useful in a small niche of the game.

AndyS.5630:

Jerus.4350:

That’s only true because of GW2’s communities inability to understand that viable means it’s ok and that optimal does not mean required.

It’s not viable to raid without Might or Quickness considering how big their effect is. It may be viable to swap around some DPS classes, but not dropping buffs.

Indeed the game suffers from the same problems WOW did when it was less than 2 years old. MC and BWL only allowed Mages to be Frost, Patchwerk in Nax was commonly run with like 10 Mages and only 1 Warlock. 10 years after that games can avoid this kind of problems. But no, we have 3 superstars.

We have all seen the 1 profession videos though. But, yes I will agree support roles are currently VERY strong and I really think the next elites need to give some other professions comparable options so we have more choices. I’d love to play an Engi that provides solid might while healing, or a Necro that scares everyone to death giving them quickness and % damage modifiers. Stuff like that.

Dahkeus.8243:

Ayrilana.1396:

Dahkeus.8243:

Wanna raid in WoW? As long as you’re playing anything but Frost DK or Ele Shaman, you’re good to go (although Brewmaster Monk may also be on that list). However, there is at least one very strong spec on every single class and it’s usually more like 2-3.

Wanna raid in GW2? There’s a short list of builds desired for raids that doesn’t include 2 classes. Oh, and you’ll probably need to have an alt or two because of how much some fights favor one profession that’s dead weight on another fight.

And how many non-meta builds are almost as effective as meta builds?.

That’s still a pretty short list, especially when you consider how many traits and skills are in the game. Sadly, so much of what is given to professions is completely useless or only useful in a small niche of the game.

It may be short or it may not be. The list does get longer when you consider how many builds are capable of being effective. Then there’s the team composition which I didn’t touch on in that specific post. The raid has been completed by teams using non-HoT builds, all of one class, in exotics (or maybe it was rares), and so on. It’s been proven that having the meta build and specific team comp isn’t a necessity in order to beat the raids.

I asked a question earlier which was answered. What’s the difference from an average guild raid team using TS and one of qT’s teams? The answer given was skill. Skill in being able to play your class well with your rotations and with the mechanics of the raid. All other things such as builds and gear being the same since it’s “meta”. I will also say that it’s not a requirement to play on the same level as qT either. There’s a range of skill levels inbetween.

When you look at the completion times between the two teams, how different are they? There’s probably a decent difference which means the average guild team has plenty of room to improve. It also means that a team not using the meta builds or team comp will have to make up for it by playing better. Of course there are going to be some builds and/or team comps that don’t work. However, there’s still plenty of room to allow all classes to beat the raid(s). Having only one Mesmer isn’t going to cause you to be incapable of beating a raid and neither is having a DPS class that isn’t an Ele.

Dahkeus.8243:

Wanna raid in WoW? As long as you’re playing anything but Frost DK or Ele Shaman, you’re good to go (although Brewmaster Monk may also be on that list). However, there is at least one very strong spec on every single class and it’s usually more like 2-3.

Wanna raid in GW2? There’s a short list of builds desired for raids that doesn’t include 2 classes. Oh, and you’ll probably need to have an alt or two because of how much some fights favor one profession that’s dead weight on another fight.

This i agree with alot,

Ive had guild mates leave for other games because the class/character they play can be useful.

Here in GW2 there are clear Apex classes for things. Right now we have people knit picking what you can and cant use. Another person argued that the community doesnt know how to play non meta raids etc etc etc.

The simple fact is build diversity is very low in this game since HOT came out. There are very specific roles that need to be filled and only 1-2 classes capable of doing it. Obviously certain groups can play what ever they want and get away with it.

As someone who pugs alot, ive had groups who kicked people who didnt have enough AP, a necro who was using greatsword on his DPS necro when the commander posted looking for DPS, and a million other things which got people kicked.

Why is it a bad thing to say raid diversity is dead? I see people arguing about it but its like every aspect of the game right now. You have 1 maybe 2 build options to play, if the group has it you need to switch to the next build. Which in many pug groups, they are not looking for a thief, DH or engy when trying to get the best team comp. As well as only needing 1 rev, 1 mesmer and 1 warrior. These 3 classes must play a certain build and if seen not playing it, they will get kicked.

Lets be 100% honest, raids diversity like most of the game has little to none build diversity. All the bosses lean toward more DPS and team mechanics. Getting to greens, going to the right fountain, not crossing the streams, etc etc. Which they have been fun but its not like Anet created bosses that took 2-3 bunkers 2-3 support and 2 characters timing burst skills at the right moment.

No simply put raids are about going to the right spots and the right time with the right classes/ builds. Ive played a few other MMOs and though many are similar GW2 doesnt have the best dungeons/raids. They dont have the best build diversity as well. GW2 just has the best game play mechanics.

kdaddy.5431:

Dahkeus.8243:

Wanna raid in WoW? As long as you’re playing anything but Frost DK or Ele Shaman, you’re good to go (although Brewmaster Monk may also be on that list). However, there is at least one very strong spec on every single class and it’s usually more like 2-3.

Wanna raid in GW2? There’s a short list of builds desired for raids that doesn’t include 2 classes. Oh, and you’ll probably need to have an alt or two because of how much some fights favor one profession that’s dead weight on another fight.

This i agree with alot,

Ive had guild mates leave for other games because the class/character they play can be useful.

Here in GW2 there are clear Apex classes for things. Right now we have people knit picking what you can and cant use. Another person argued that the community doesnt know how to play non meta raids etc etc etc.

The simple fact is build diversity is very low in this game since HOT came out. There are very specific roles that need to be filled and only 1-2 classes capable of doing it. Obviously certain groups can play what ever they want and get away with it.

As someone who pugs alot, ive had groups who kicked people who didnt have enough AP, a necro who was using greatsword on his DPS necro when the commander posted looking for DPS, and a million other things which got people kicked.

Why is it a bad thing to say raid diversity is dead? I see people arguing about it but its like every aspect of the game right now. You have 1 maybe 2 build options to play, if the group has it you need to switch to the next build. Which in many pug groups, they are not looking for a thief, DH or engy when trying to get the best team comp. As well as only needing 1 rev, 1 mesmer and 1 warrior. These 3 classes must play a certain build and if seen not playing it, they will get kicked.

Lets be 100% honest, raids diversity like most of the game has little to none build diversity. All the bosses lean toward more DPS and team mechanics. Getting to greens, going to the right fountain, not crossing the streams, etc etc. Which they have been fun but its not like Anet created bosses that took 2-3 bunkers 2-3 support and 2 characters timing burst skills at the right moment.

No simply put raids are about going to the right spots and the right time with the right classes/ builds. Ive played a few other MMOs and though many are similar GW2 doesnt have the best dungeons/raids. They dont have the best build diversity as well. GW2 just has the best game play mechanics.

Open world and dungeons have a ton of build diversity. You can do map completion and beat the personal story in any build. You can also do it without a build (traits) and in greens. So unless you’re referring to another game then you’re wrong.

As fair as lack of diversity in raids, you can blame that on the players who insist that the meta builds are the only builds capable of beating raids. It’s a player issue and not an Anet issue. If Anet were to change things, there would be a new meta and we’d be right back to where we are again.

Ayrilana.1396:

As fair as lack of diversity in raids, you can blame that on the players who insist that the meta builds are the only builds capable of beating raids. It’s a player issue and not an Anet issue. If Anet were to change things, there would be a new meta and we’d be right back to where we are again.

Yes and no.

Do players have a way of locking in on an optimal comp (META) yes. Is it the players insisting they want to be optimal (yes). Remember this however, the players aren’t the ones in charge of this games balance that’s on the devs. If more builds were competitive with what people deem meta we’d have more diversity. But when the devs don’t even know what niche they want to carve out for the core of each class, let alone its elite specs we end up with the mess we have now where each class has 1 build that performs its role and several others that are exceedingly lackluster.

TexZero.7910:

Ayrilana.1396:

As fair as lack of diversity in raids, you can blame that on the players who insist that the meta builds are the only builds capable of beating raids. It’s a player issue and not an Anet issue. If Anet were to change things, there would be a new meta and we’d be right back to where we are again.

Yes and no.

Do players have a way of locking in on an optimal comp (META) yes. Is it the players insisting they want to be optimal (yes). Remember this however, the players aren’t the ones in charge of this games balance that’s on the devs. If more builds were competitive with what people deem meta we’d have more diversity. But when the devs don’t even know what niche they want to carve out for the core of each class, let alone its elite specs we end up with the mess we have now where each class has 1 build that performs its role and several others that are exceedingly lackluster.

So you’re saying that all balance updates should be around maintaining the meta which is created by players? If there are any classes or builds that are not equal to those that are part of the meta then it’s Anet’s responsibility to make it so?

Ayrilana.1396:

TexZero.7910:

Ayrilana.1396:

As fair as lack of diversity in raids, you can blame that on the players who insist that the meta builds are the only builds capable of beating raids. It’s a player issue and not an Anet issue. If Anet were to change things, there would be a new meta and we’d be right back to where we are again.

Yes and no.

Do players have a way of locking in on an optimal comp (META) yes. Is it the players insisting they want to be optimal (yes). Remember this however, the players aren’t the ones in charge of this games balance that’s on the devs. If more builds were competitive with what people deem meta we’d have more diversity. But when the devs don’t even know what niche they want to carve out for the core of each class, let alone its elite specs we end up with the mess we have now where each class has 1 build that performs its role and several others that are exceedingly lackluster.

So you’re saying that all balance updates should be around maintaining the meta which is created by players? If there are any classes or builds that are not equal to those that are part of the meta then it’s Anet’s responsibility to make it so?

I honestly think so yes. Not necessarily equal, as classes all have their own strengths through utility ofc, but within a decent margin. IMO there should never be a scenario where one can honestly say that there’s 0 reason to bring a class. I find reaper a prime example here. The way it got absolutely gutted is something that should’ve never happened, especially considering the lack of utility.

cranos.5913:

Ayrilana.1396:

TexZero.7910:

Ayrilana.1396:

As fair as lack of diversity in raids, you can blame that on the players who insist that the meta builds are the only builds capable of beating raids. It’s a player issue and not an Anet issue. If Anet were to change things, there would be a new meta and we’d be right back to where we are again.

Yes and no.

Do players have a way of locking in on an optimal comp (META) yes. Is it the players insisting they want to be optimal (yes). Remember this however, the players aren’t the ones in charge of this games balance that’s on the devs. If more builds were competitive with what people deem meta we’d have more diversity. But when the devs don’t even know what niche they want to carve out for the core of each class, let alone its elite specs we end up with the mess we have now where each class has 1 build that performs its role and several others that are exceedingly lackluster.

So you’re saying that all balance updates should be around maintaining the meta which is created by players? If there are any classes or builds that are not equal to those that are part of the meta then it’s Anet’s responsibility to make it so?

I honestly think so yes. Not necessarily equal, as classes all have their own strengths through utility ofc, but within a decent margin. IMO there should never be a scenario where one can honestly say that there’s 0 reason to bring a class. I find reaper a prime example here. The way it got absolutely gutted is something that should’ve never happened, especially considering the lack of utility.

…or how it was like that for core necro all the time until HoT got released.

If the meta created by the players is healthy, Anet should seek to maintain it. If it’s something like what we’ll see now or is grossly overpowered or completely broken in other ways, it should be fixed. Boonsharing was overpowered in WvW so it needed to be fixed there, but two very important words were missing at the end of, for example, the SoI change: “WvW only”

Ayrilana.1396:

Not sure what you’re trying to get at as I never talked about failing on enrages.

I’ll add into that post though. Everyone is using the exact same builds and team compositions that are meta because only meta build are meta. So with all other things the same, what separates groups like qT from an average pug group on TS?

That’s why viability for an average group is limited to several percent below the optimum. Because controlling quality of players is very hard in this game, people mostly control what they can (composition).

Obtena.7952:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Obtena, what you are not realizing is that all classes should be within reasonable range of each other in terms of efficiency and that there should be enough playroom while still being close enough to the optimal option.

Yes, that’s correct and that’s exactly why we see the changes we got in this patch … because there were a few classes that stood out from others, being picked because of specific skills that gave extreme results.

Unfortunately we are not nearly as close to reasonable range. Instead of making a chrono droppable, the patch has made them needed in double the old amount.

Ayrilana.1396:

So you’re saying that all balance updates should be around maintaining the meta which is created by players? If there are any classes or builds that are not equal to those that are part of the meta then it’s Anet’s responsibility to make it so?

Meta isn’t created by players. Meta is created by Anet and players just solve the equation (or, optimization problem). So it’s 100% controllable, predictable and calculable for Anet. Instead of just putting random buffs and nerfs, they could actually solve the optimization problem and verify that the changes produce the desired result.

If the desired result is bringing expected number of profession users per raid to 10/9, then this one has failed at this task for Chronomancer, Warrior, Druid, Elementalist, Necromancer and Revenant (six classes out nine. 6 out of 9, Carl). Only Engineers report improvements.

Ayrilana.1396:

TexZero.7910:

Ayrilana.1396:

As fair as lack of diversity in raids, you can blame that on the players who insist that the meta builds are the only builds capable of beating raids. It’s a player issue and not an Anet issue. If Anet were to change things, there would be a new meta and we’d be right back to where we are again.

Yes and no.

Do players have a way of locking in on an optimal comp (META) yes. Is it the players insisting they want to be optimal (yes). Remember this however, the players aren’t the ones in charge of this games balance that’s on the devs. If more builds were competitive with what people deem meta we’d have more diversity. But when the devs don’t even know what niche they want to carve out for the core of each class, let alone its elite specs we end up with the mess we have now where each class has 1 build that performs its role and several others that are exceedingly lackluster.

So you’re saying that all balance updates should be around maintaining the meta which is created by players? If there are any classes or builds that are not equal to those that are part of the meta then it’s Anet’s responsibility to make it so?

See the post a few quotes up. Balance patches directly dictate what the meta itself will be, players just find the solution and settle on it until it’s changed.

What i’m also saying is that having a meta in mind as a target goal of design isn’t a bad thing and allows for a healthier target goal to achieve how a class/spec should perform relative to its counterparts within the same spectrum.

Ayrilana.1396:

kdaddy.5431:

Dahkeus.8243:

Wanna raid in WoW? As long as you’re playing anything but Frost DK or Ele Shaman, you’re good to go (although Brewmaster Monk may also be on that list). However, there is at least one very strong spec on every single class and it’s usually more like 2-3.

Wanna raid in GW2? There’s a short list of builds desired for raids that doesn’t include 2 classes. Oh, and you’ll probably need to have an alt or two because of how much some fights favor one profession that’s dead weight on another fight.

This i agree with alot,

Ive had guild mates leave for other games because the class/character they play can be useful.

Here in GW2 there are clear Apex classes for things. Right now we have people knit picking what you can and cant use. Another person argued that the community doesnt know how to play non meta raids etc etc etc.

The simple fact is build diversity is very low in this game since HOT came out. There are very specific roles that need to be filled and only 1-2 classes capable of doing it. Obviously certain groups can play what ever they want and get away with it.

As someone who pugs alot, ive had groups who kicked people who didnt have enough AP, a necro who was using greatsword on his DPS necro when the commander posted looking for DPS, and a million other things which got people kicked.

Why is it a bad thing to say raid diversity is dead? I see people arguing about it but its like every aspect of the game right now. You have 1 maybe 2 build options to play, if the group has it you need to switch to the next build. Which in many pug groups, they are not looking for a thief, DH or engy when trying to get the best team comp. As well as only needing 1 rev, 1 mesmer and 1 warrior. These 3 classes must play a certain build and if seen not playing it, they will get kicked.

Lets be 100% honest, raids diversity like most of the game has little to none build diversity. All the bosses lean toward more DPS and team mechanics. Getting to greens, going to the right fountain, not crossing the streams, etc etc. Which they have been fun but its not like Anet created bosses that took 2-3 bunkers 2-3 support and 2 characters timing burst skills at the right moment.

No simply put raids are about going to the right spots and the right time with the right classes/ builds. Ive played a few other MMOs and though many are similar GW2 doesnt have the best dungeons/raids. They dont have the best build diversity as well. GW2 just has the best game play mechanics.

Open world and dungeons have a ton of build diversity. You can do map completion and beat the personal story in any build. You can also do it without a build (traits) and in greens. So unless you’re referring to another game then you’re wrong.

As fair as lack of diversity in raids, you can blame that on the players who insist that the meta builds are the only builds capable of beating raids. It’s a player issue and not an Anet issue. If Anet were to change things, there would be a new meta and we’d be right back to where we are again.

LOL of course dungeons have great build diversity, with the 30-30-30 power creep, ascended gear, Increased everything from HOT spec lines. Dungeons are a cake walk especially since they havent been updated for about 4 years.

When GW2 first came out dungeons were hard because people were doing them at 35 because it said recommended, even though it would be hard even at 80 with exotic gear. Build diversity was very open because it wasnt meant for level 80 player fully geared. Comparing dungeons which had serious glitches to raids is like comparing NBA basketball to rugby and saying look at the different play styles.

Also why is it the community’s fault? Raids are difficult and running the meta spec is simply far better then running a random team comp. I posted a screen print in the warrior forum of a random pug group where we had 2 thieves on VG who then switched to power engy on gors. This was the first time ive had a group stray so far from conventional and actually succeed.

Anet made this 10 man groups not the community. Anet made the HOT specs that broke the other elements of the game such as PvE, WvW, PvP and fractals. Anet just nerfed classes to simply change the meta like they do in PvP.

You can not blame people for wanted to succeed in getting rewards, Achievement points, titles, and progress on legendary gear coming up.

When you can have 10 people run something that is proven to work better then anything else and not only is it better but it is literally 5X and 10X better. How can you blame the community?

Please come face me in PvP and play a vanilla build while ill use the HOT meta because that is simply what your saying.

cranos.5913:

I honestly think so yes. Not necessarily equal, as classes all have their own strengths through utility ofc, but within a decent margin. IMO there should never be a scenario where one can honestly say that there’s 0 reason to bring a class. I find reaper a prime example here. The way it got absolutely gutted is something that should’ve never happened, especially considering the lack of utility.

They removed something that had gone a bit overboard. You can’t honestly believe that being able to summon swarms of jagged horrors, that can be kept alive, which deal a lot of bleeding damage, was actually intended? There’s always a reason to bring a class. It’s just that some people prefer to go with what is the most optimal.

AndyS.5630:

That’s why viability for an average group is limited to several percent below the optimum. Because controlling quality of players is very hard in this game, people mostly control what they can (composition).

Then that’s on the players and not anything within the game. There’s a decently sized margin between what high successful groups are doing and what it would take to fail. It’s more than the several percent you claim. Players very well can control what builds/compositions they have in their group but that by no way means that only those that they choose are what’s viable.

TexZero.7910:

See the post a few quotes up. Balance patches directly dictate what the meta itself will be, players just find the solution and settle on it until it’s changed.

What i’m also saying is that having a meta in mind as a target goal of design isn’t a bad thing and allows for a healthier target goal to achieve how a class/spec should perform relative to its counterparts within the same spectrum.

There’s always an optimum and any change significant enough could alter what that is. That doesn’t mean that they want this, this, and this class to be highly preferred and this and this class to be largely ignored. That’s chosen entirely by the players that feel only the optimal builds are the way to go. For those that don’t, this isn’t as much of an issue.

Like there’s always going to be that optimal build or team comp, even if everything was comparable to a degree, the same players that prefer the meta would go with what was the most optimal out of all of those. So it doesn’t really matter.

kdaddy.5431:

LOL of course dungeons have great build diversity, with the 30-30-30 power creep, ascended gear, Increased everything from HOT spec lines. Dungeons are a cake walk especially since they havent been updated for about 4 years.

When GW2 first came out dungeons were hard because people were doing them at 35 because it said recommended, even though it would be hard even at 80 with exotic gear. Build diversity was very open because it wasnt meant for level 80 player fully geared. Comparing dungeons which had serious glitches to raids is like comparing NBA basketball to rugby and saying look at the different play styles.

Also why is it the community’s fault? Raids are difficult and running the meta spec is simply far better then running a random team comp. I posted a screen print in the warrior forum of a random pug group where we had 2 thieves on VG who then switched to power engy on gors. This was the first time ive had a group stray so far from conventional and actually succeed.

Anet made this 10 man groups not the community. Anet made the HOT specs that broke the other elements of the game such as PvE, WvW, PvP and fractals. Anet just nerfed classes to simply change the meta like they do in PvP.

You can not blame people for wanted to succeed in getting rewards, Achievement points, titles, and progress on legendary gear coming up.

When you can have 10 people run something that is proven to work better then anything else and not only is it better but it is literally 5X and 10X better. How can you blame the community?

Please come face me in PvP and play a vanilla build while ill use the HOT meta because that is simply what your saying.

Dungeons were hard at the beginning but that was because they were new. While HoT did make them easier, they really were not all that difficult before. Kind of odd though that just a bit ago you were stating that build diversity is very low and yet here you are stating that it’s great.

I stated the players who chose to only go with what was the most optimal were at fault because that mentality itself is what is causing the lack of diversity. There’s a difference between completing something and doing a speed run. Within that also arise a whole lot of other possibilities.

When the changes were announced, players immediately were trying to get back the 100% quickness up-time as if that was an absolute requirement. They added the second mesmer and decided to boot Rev. Would having the Rev, with the slight reduction in increased boon duration, really cause a group to not complete the raid? There were several groups that reported it to be slightly slower but they completed the raid just fine. For those that are on the cusp of succeeding but fail, they can improve their skill.

You’re saying that it’s literally 5-10 times better? Are you referring to the old meta comp versus what people have suggested as the new one? Where’s the math?

I can argue back and forth on here but it will just take time away from something else I could be doing. If you want to believe that only the meta builds are viable, and anything other than them will result in a fail, go ahead. There’s really nothing that I can say to change your opinion. Just be prepared to be disappointed with each and every balance patch.

Ayrilana.1396:

There’s always an optimum and any change significant enough could alter what that is. That doesn’t mean that they want this, this, and this class to be highly preferred and this and this class to be largely ignored. That’s chosen entirely by the players that feel only the optimal builds are the way to go. For those that don’t, this isn’t as much of an issue.

Like there’s always going to be that optimal build or team comp, even if everything was comparable to a degree, the same players that prefer the meta would go with what was the most optimal out of all of those. So it doesn’t really matter.

Missing the point…Not sure if intentionally or not either.

Yes there will always be an optimal composition (what people tend to call Meta). That doesn’t mean that you have to shank other viable near-meta or near meta performing builds. Which is what the last set of balance patches has actually done.

Instead of actually tuning the under-performing aspects of each classes kits.
EX. Scrapper has seen several nerfs (due to PvP) and none of it was split. This ultimately hampered the classes PvE performance. Ironically it was nerfed for being too durable, the exact thing Scrapper was supposed to bring to engineer. Now….scrapper is a joke and is Largely forgone because Alchemy is the superior alternative.

It’s almost like instead of setting a baseline and sticking to it, they haphazardly nerf things on a whim. It’s almost as if instead of tweaking boon duration for a mode, they haphazardly changed their entire functionality for the entire game. It’s almost as if they forgot how there own skills even function (TIMEWARP)………..

But sure it’s the players fault right ?

Just because dungeons were hard when they first came out doesnt mean people didnt figure it out and do speed runs. Your acting like there wasnt certain builds that were played for dungeons. There was but with 5 people its easier do find groups and also to find people willing to work with you.

Also i have pugged all my kills, just because i named a group that had good players doesnt make it diverse build comps.

I have had to spend hours with “EXPERIENCED” kill groups because something wasnt right and rotations were missed.

Take a guess to the people in these runs? Its always a party of 3-4 people who run these small pug groups and they start kicking people who cant run meta builds because the team is failing.

How is its the community’s fault this happens? Im talking pre-patch ive had to collect pumpkins for the guild hall so havent raided yet but im sorry this goes again into everything i said.

You cant blame people for wanting to get something done in a reasonable amount of time with content they have done every week for months. If by kicking the 2nd necro, the condi druid, the zerk dd and Dh for more tempest and healing druids and the fight is then won easier and faster Are you gonna sit there and really say its the community’s fault?

Im sorry but your argument has no real point, you are arguing from the perspective of someone who gets all there boss kills on the reset sunday night.

Seriously you are literally saying im rich and its easy being rich why dont you do this this and this with your rich friends and you can have money too.

I have a friend who is in a guild who sells raids and they were doing runs with 7 people. They on youtube 5 man groups and i still run into “EXPERIENCED” wing clear groups who struggle 3-4 fights before we get the kill on a boss.

You are righting “where is your math”, “they can get better” and its the community’s fault?

ill say it again, the way your speaking on the subject is like me saying to you if vanilla is so viable you play a vanilla class and ill play the meta HOT class and we will 1 vs 1 and if you cant win L2P.

Ayrilana.1396:

They removed something that had gone a bit overboard. You can’t honestly believe that being able to summon swarms of jagged horrors, that can be kept alive, which deal a lot of bleeding damage, was actually intended? There’s always a reason to bring a class. It’s just that some people prefer to go with what is the most optimal.

The problem here is not that they nerfed that skill. Relying that much on ai to boost dps by 30% is broken I understand and agree with that. They didn’t buff anything else to replace it tho. They just butchered one of the most important skills and that was that. Done.

It’s also nice I’m apparently talking to a wall here. I previously said that I believe classes should be within a decent margin of each other. Reaper was an example of not being in that margin and not bringing any utility to make up for that on top of that. It was a pretty clear example of what I believe a pretty big balance fail. You repeating that it’s just not optimal is rly besides the point. Ofc you can take it. You can also not take any HoT specs or clear it in green gear but that doesn’t mean ppl want to purposefully handicap themselves in daily runs.

There is NO good logical reason to bring reaper at this moment. The only reasons ppl would bring it are personal, like a friend that plays it as his main and we’ll suffer through it because of him. The dps is NOT good, it brings NO good utility other classes can’t cover. This is what I meant.

AndyS.5630:

Unfortunately we are not nearly as close to reasonable range. Instead of making a chrono droppable, the patch has made them needed in double the old amount.

No, they are not needed double the old amount; obviously there is an issue with understanding what ‘need’ means.

Anet did not design raids to NEED any particular class. This is where you’re whole argument fails; the premise is not true.

Obtena.7952:

AndyS.5630:

Unfortunately we are not nearly as close to reasonable range. Instead of making a chrono droppable, the patch has made them needed in double the old amount.

No, they are not needed double the old amount; obviously there is an issue with understanding what ‘need’ means.

Anet did not design raids to NEED any particular class. This is where you’re whole argument fails; the premise is not true.

Maybe, but anet can’t change players mindset. What they could have done is not completely destroy a healthy meta.

Since PvE is really just a numbers game there’s rly not that much work to be done.

It’s not maybe … you don’t need a Chrono or 2 Chrono.

There is nothing healthy about any meta. It’s fundamental nature is exclusivity. Here is the best part about this thread. The OP wants diversity … but is complaining about nerfs on exclusive tools that establish a strong metagame promoting exclusivity. /shrug

Obtena.7952:

It’s not maybe … you don’t need a Chrono or 2 Chrono.

There is nothing healthy about any meta. It’s fundamental nature is exclusivity. Here is the best part about this thread. The OP wants diversity … but is complaining about nerfs on exclusive tools that establish a strong metagame promoting exclusivity. /shrug

Are you… are you serious?
A healthy meta includes every class with possible multiple builds, thus giving diversity WHILE RETAINING EFFICIENCY.

I’ll say this again: No, you do not need a chrono or two for quickness. You neither need warriors for might or druids for their combination of heals and buffs. Would you ever set up a group without either of those classes simply because no one in your squad wants to play them in a raid setting?

They “succeeded” as far as raids can be cleared with every setup whatsoever, yes. If that’s your point sure. We are on about it also being efficient, which only allows a small amount of builds. A good, healthy meta has plenty of useful builds close within each other.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

A healthy meta includes every class with possible multiple builds, thus giving diversity WHILE RETAINING EFFICIENCY.

Yeah, that sounds about right to me … but GW2 isn’t even close to doing that and the tools that Chronos and Revs that got nerfed weren’t achieving that either …

So tell me why again that these changes are bad if the goal is to achieve a healthy game environment?

Obtena.7952:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

A healthy meta includes every class with possible multiple builds, thus giving diversity WHILE RETAINING EFFICIENCY.

Yeah, that sounds about right to me … but GW2 isn’t even close to doing that and the tools that Chronos and Revs that got nerfed weren’t achieving that either …

So tell me why again that these changes are bad if the goal is to achieve a healthy game environment?

Because they made it overall worse and other changes should’ve been made in its place.
Also, just because GW2 isn’t close to doing that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t strive to do so.

Balance does not have to be perfect between professions for raids. It just has to be close enough that groups will grab any profession available to fill the raid slot.

Even after the patch, especially after the patch, raids are more exclusive. Arenanet should nerf next month, too, and keep nerfing until no one can tell the difference between professions outside of graphics.

Boons and conditions got way out of balance compared to their costs. Get rid of the extreme buffs and debuffs, then fix base damage.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Obtena.7952:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

A healthy meta includes every class with possible multiple builds, thus giving diversity WHILE RETAINING EFFICIENCY.

Yeah, that sounds about right to me … but GW2 isn’t even close to doing that and the tools that Chronos and Revs that got nerfed weren’t achieving that either …

So tell me why again that these changes are bad if the goal is to achieve a healthy game environment?

Because they made it overall worse and other changes should’ve been made in its place.
Also, just because GW2 isn’t close to doing that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t strive to do so.

That’s a pretty presumptive and easy statement to make but it’s not as easy to do it … there are LOTS of things they could have done but that’s not really relevant.

The fact is that the changes they made are actually inline with moving to a more healthy metagame environment and a more sensible, reasonable application of a class skills. Yet, you’re unhappy they did so, while saying they should attempt to do it. So weird when people contradict themselves.

To tell you the truth. These changes only affect DPS check bosses.

You can do Sabetha and VG easily with no Chrono at all as long as the mechanics are done right. In fact I have pugged no Chrono VG and Sab and finished them with decent times.

The simple solution here is, lower Gorseval/KC etc… the DPS check bosses HP by about 5% or so, and everything should balance out decently.

Also I did a bit of testing with meta DPS classes under the assumption that there is no chrono and no Rev, and the highest DPS classes are actually Condi Engineer and Condi Ranger by about 2k. Quickness seems to do quite a bit more for power than it does for condi.

Ging.6485:

The simple solution here is, lower Gorseval/KC etc… the DPS check bosses HP by about 5% or so, and everything should balance out decently.

That wouldn’t change anything unfortunately because people will still follow the Meta whatever it is. Being ‘Good enough’ is not something this community cares about.

I love the idea of meta, I love the research and pushing for perfection. But, I hate that people take these ideas and twist them into being a requirement. Especially lately seeing people whine about having to use 2 Ele’s which means in a PUG group where people are playing poorly you’re going to take 2 squishies and everyone taking 33% more damage than they would if you subbed in a Rev/Guard. Use your god kitten brains people and don’t try to copy the top guilds when playing at a lower skill level!

I dont think its dead yet, but it might get there, especially with all the narrow minded players out there. That’s why I will be leading my own pugs/semi-pugs and kick/block all the toxic players.

Ging.6485:

To tell you the truth. These changes only affect DPS check bosses.

You can do Sabetha and VG easily with no Chrono at all as long as the mechanics are done right. In fact I have pugged no Chrono VG and Sab and finished them with decent times.

The simple solution here is, lower Gorseval/KC etc… the DPS check bosses HP by about 5% or so, and everything should balance out decently.

Also I did a bit of testing with meta DPS classes under the assumption that there is no chrono and no Rev, and the highest DPS classes are actually Condi Engineer and Condi Ranger by about 2k. Quickness seems to do quite a bit more for power than it does for condi.

True, but even now Gorseval is done with one or less necros and KC only with eles anyway. So in theory there is almost no difference, thats not the problem. The real problem are all the whining pu**es who will demand certain compositions.

Does anyone care to expalin why the last Changes are moving to a healthy Metagame Environment? Metagame will be just Mirror Comp and noone I asked likes this Comp. It hardlocks 6 Spots out of 10 since you need the 6 Spots to give your Group enough Boons for a very good Uptime. The next 2 Spots are Eles since Ele = King of DPS and it even looks like that Condi Ele is going to be a thing. 36k DPS as Condi Ele on Target Golem. If everything goes bad, Condi Ele will go to be the No-Brainer Condi Pick. So even Condi Picks are going to be Ele sigh

In my Opinion the Metagame before the Patch was much healthier than what we have now. Only 3 Hardlocked Spots ( 7 2 1 was still good enough ) and every Class had a Place in the Raid Comp ( well expect Engis even though they can deal a lot of Damage but well it has something to do with their Rotation and the Requirements of good Damage )

Since I doubt that Anet is going to Change the SoI Nerf and give Chrono the Ability back to give near Perma Quickness to the Raid, we need something else to crack up the Supercomp we have now. One Problem is, that we need 2 Chronos, 2 Warriors, 2 Druids to give everyone the desired Boons and Buffs. Nerfing these Classes won’t solve any Problem. You’d make them either more desired or they fall out of the Meta completely.

Again you need 2 because due to 2 Things. 5 Man Buff Cap and not having the ability to pump out enough Boons to ignore this anymore. One Possible Solution would be to get rid of that Buff Cap for Raids and go for 10 Man Buff Cap. With this Mirror Comp would vanish and you’d have Place for more Classes. This Solution also has to come with proper Balancing ( much easier with Skill Splitting ) otherwise we’d have Class Stacking Eles on most Bosses.

Walhalla.5473:

Does anyone care to expalin why the last Changes are moving to a healthy Metagame Environment? Metagame will be just Mirror Comp and noone I asked likes this Comp. It hardlocks 6 Spots out of 10 since you need the 6 Spots to give your Group enough Boons for a very good Uptime. The next 2 Spots are Eles since Ele = King of DPS and it even looks like that Condi Ele is going to be a thing. 36k DPS as Condi Ele on Target Golem. If everything goes bad, Condi Ele will go to be the No-Brainer Condi Pick. So even Condi Picks are going to be Ele sigh

In my Opinion the Metagame before the Patch was much healthier than what we have now. Only 3 Hardlocked Spots ( 7 2 1 was still good enough ) and every Class had a Place in the Raid Comp ( well expect Engis even though they can deal a lot of Damage but well it has something to do with their Rotation and the Requirements of good Damage )

Since I doubt that Anet is going to Change the SoI Nerf and give Chrono the Ability back to give near Perma Quickness to the Raid, we need something else to crack up the Supercomp we have now. One Problem is, that we need 2 Chronos, 2 Warriors, 2 Druids to give everyone the desired Boons and Buffs. Nerfing these Classes won’t solve any Problem. You’d make them either more desired or they fall out of the Meta completely.

Again you need 2 because due to 2 Things. 5 Man Buff Cap and not having the ability to pump out enough Boons to ignore this anymore. One Possible Solution would be to get rid of that Buff Cap for Raids and go for 10 Man Buff Cap. With this Mirror Comp would vanish and you’d have Place for more Classes. This Solution also has to come with proper Balancing ( much easier with Skill Splitting ) otherwise we’d have Class Stacking Eles on most Bosses.

If removed, the boon cap will open even more dps spots and will make the raids even easier. They are not challenging enough atm, so that’s not the right direction imo.

Thats why I’m saying that this needs to come with proper Balancing.

There was raid diversity whaaaat? When??

Oxidia.8103:

There was raid diversity whaaaat? When??

All professions were welcome, except Engineer. We will see tomorrow if this will change.

My extremely lazy thoughts on raid diversity:

- Boon Duration is too easy to game. Items like Platinum Doubloon, Rune of Leadership are insanely overbudget; when converting to Concentration the extremely overbudgeted nature of the items are revealed.
- This generosity with Boon Duration results in overprevalence of specific boons; chiefly in PvE, Quickness (also an issue in WvW). Quickness 100% uptime should not happen without serious (and arguably overcompensatory) compromises in your composition.

100% Quickness uptime does not make any sense and drastically hinders multiple classes. Chiefly I want to speak about Revenant and Scrapper but there are other examples. Impossible Odds should be a massive DPS boost for a DPS rev but it does nothing. Applied Force should be a reasonable boost for a Scrapper but it does nothing.

There’s also a case to be made for +condition duration effects but those tend to be condition specific (which are more or less fine IMO) or not particularly prevalent.

There’s also a case to be made that a party should not be permanently at 25 might purely through the output of 1 supporter (PS), and that that also significantly reduces the amount of build diversity, but that’s not a battle that I really think needs to be fought at the moment.

No balance to any class will change the game breaking mechanic of quickness and might. You can do whatever you want, but unless you simply take away everyone’s ability to maintain 25 stacks of might (all alone, 1 person in 10 can do this by him or herself!) and 100% quickness uptime (2 person in 8 is all it takes, I mean yeah what?!) then some classes will always be absolutely necessary and others will always be absolutely unnecessary. Because you now have a situation where that swinging hammer guardian actually doesn’t have to give up on speed, while that super fast hitting Shiro Rev is just as normal paced as everyone else with 100% quickness uptime. And let us not even dwell on the topic of classes that have no ways at all of competitively being either power or condi if they chose so, like necro.

Walhalla.5473:

Does anyone care to expalin why the last Changes are moving to a healthy Metagame Environment?

The only scenario that would make sense to me is if they started with the next expansions elites and looked at what was needed and decided on this change. Something like they went to the drawing board and decided they needed alternatives to PS/Druid/Chrono, but realized that 10 man 100% quickness was probably too much and didn’t want to do it again so instead they brought that down so they only needed to match 5 man 100% quickness uptime.

But, we all know that’s very unlikely to have happened, it was probably done with little regard for PVE, just IFF that’s the case I could understand.

afrocrusade.4253:

DeceiverX.8361:

[pedantry intensifies]

Running into a raid with 10 engineers should not work for obvious reasons.

The need for healing and dedicated healing is present. A need for buffs that make a certain class viable is also present.

The fact roles exist and some classes fail to fit that role is not a lack of diversity, it’s simply stupid. Raids were not “play how you want” they were “play the best strategically.” Raids have a great deal of diversity. The nullification of two, three more classes from the raid scene, or simply making them even weaker than they were, is nothing short of dumbness.

Having a healer thief with an engineer pulling aggro in cleric’s gear while you have 5 nomad warriors and 3 soldier’s necromancers should not get you through raids. Sorry.

I honestly think it should.

But ONLY through the creation of viable specializations for those roles. Healer gear on existing thief specs? No. Stop. healing gear on a thief spec designed for healing? Yes. Please.

Every class should absolutely have build options to adequately fill every role. That’s the entire point.

Before HoT you’d have said a ranger healer was dumb. Now its meta, and that ranger didn’t have to roll a new character, collect new skins, etc. At worst he had to play a character he already liked to learn some new tricks, and maybe buy some new gear for a character he already liked. So he got to “roll a healer” without actually having to put his favorite character away and make a new one. He in stead got to add a new role to the one he liked already. He can still go play the old DPS role, but he now has the option of playing the healer role as well.

That’s where diversity should come from. If you need to fill the healer role, or the tank role, or the DPS role, etc. the end goal really should be that any class can competantly fill that role, assuming that you’ve brought the proper build and gear to do so.

GW2 is set up at its core on this basic principal. That build, not class is the primary determining factor of what role a given player fills in a group.

The problem was that the elite spec system was rolled out in an anemic state. in stead of addressing each classes’ core failings in filling various roles, they added meaningful role adjustments to two classes and just slapped some nonsense on the others because it looked cool because they decided the game needed another class more than it needed actual options in elite specs, a system that was specifically designed to let them design wildly variant roles and playstyles for the classes that already existed.

Just tested the “2 mesmer new meta” and it just doesnt work as intended. 50% quickness still missing, so probably its better to have another 2 dps classes instead of mesmers.

mazut.4296:

Just tested the “2 mesmer new meta” and it just doesnt work as intended. 50% quickness still missing, so probably its better to have another 2 dps classes instead of mesmers.

Your chronos are just bad then.

fishball.7204:

mazut.4296:

Just tested the “2 mesmer new meta” and it just doesnt work as intended. 50% quickness still missing, so probably its better to have another 2 dps classes instead of mesmers.

Your chronos are just bad then.

This. Chrono has an actual rotation to follow now. Button mashing with SOI in between does not work anymore.

Sarrs.4831:

My extremely lazy thoughts on raid diversity:

- Boon Duration is too easy to game. Items like Platinum Doubloon, Rune of Leadership are insanely overbudget; when converting to Concentration the extremely overbudgeted nature of the items are revealed.
- This generosity with Boon Duration results in overprevalence of specific boons; chiefly in PvE, Quickness (also an issue in WvW). Quickness 100% uptime should not happen without serious (and arguably overcompensatory) compromises in your composition.

100% Quickness uptime does not make any sense and drastically hinders multiple classes. Chiefly I want to speak about Revenant and Scrapper but there are other examples. Impossible Odds should be a massive DPS boost for a DPS rev but it does nothing. Applied Force should be a reasonable boost for a Scrapper but it does nothing.

There’s also a case to be made for +condition duration effects but those tend to be condition specific (which are more or less fine IMO) or not particularly prevalent.

There’s also a case to be made that a party should not be permanently at 25 might purely through the output of 1 supporter (PS), and that that also significantly reduces the amount of build diversity, but that’s not a battle that I really think needs to be fought at the moment.

I do agree with you that perma quickness does not make sense since the boon was meant to be a extra boost and as you said it makes applied force, impossible odds or fatal frenzy totally obsolete. What is even “worse” is that the character giving perma quickness for AA also gives perma alacrity… and does so without investing that much in boon duration gear.
At least since last patch you need 2 chrono which should have meant a dps loss to compensate the perma bonus… but it turned out it was not because alacrity had a smaller uptime before.

But speaking about support builds : PSEA warriors grants to 5 people (could even be stretched to seven) 1070 power (from 2400 base power), 170 condi damage (around 1600 base depending on classes), 170 precision (8 % crit chance) 170 ferocity and 250 healing power. Ok they do lose dps in this configuration but given what they give they should be around what a chrono does if not lower…

Ayrilana.1396:

They removed something that had gone a bit overboard. You can’t honestly believe that being able to summon swarms of jagged horrors, that can be kept alive, which deal a lot of bleeding damage, was actually intended? There’s always a reason to bring a class. It’s just that some people prefer to go with what is the most optimal.

It didn’t go overboard. While that mechanic could be awkward, it was absolutely required one to bring necro DPS to a reasonable level. So yes, the damage dealt by horrors seemed to be intended, even though underlying mechanic was awkward, weird and unintended.

Ayrilana.1396:

Then that’s on the players and not anything within the game. There’s a decently sized margin between what high successful groups are doing and what it would take to fail. It’s more than the several percent you claim. Players very well can control what builds/compositions they have in their group but that by no way means that only those that they choose are what’s viable.

That is exactly on game. It takes exactly the several percent, because after that you risk facing harder mechanics.

Ayrilana.1396:

There’s always an optimum and any change significant enough could alter what that is. That doesn’t mean that they want this, this, and this class to be highly preferred and this and this class to be largely ignored. That’s chosen entirely by the players that feel only the optimal builds are the way to go. For those that don’t, this isn’t as much of an issue.

There is no valid reason to not go for the optimum. Optimization is what have brought humans (as species) to where we currently are. Of course, you can live in the street, or even in the forest, but it’s far less optimal than in a house. Why must players choose in-game equivalent to living in the forest?

AndyS.5630:

Ayrilana.1396:

They removed something that had gone a bit overboard. You can’t honestly believe that being able to summon swarms of jagged horrors, that can be kept alive, which deal a lot of bleeding damage, was actually intended? There’s always a reason to bring a class. It’s just that some people prefer to go with what is the most optimal.

It didn’t go overboard. While that mechanic could be awkward, it was absolutely required one to bring necro DPS to a reasonable level. So yes, the damage dealt by horrors seemed to be intended, even though underlying mechanic was awkward, weird and unintended.

Ayrilana.1396:

Then that’s on the players and not anything within the game. There’s a decently sized margin between what high successful groups are doing and what it would take to fail. It’s more than the several percent you claim. Players very well can control what builds/compositions they have in their group but that by no way means that only those that they choose are what’s viable.

That is exactly on game. It takes exactly the several percent, because after that you risk facing harder mechanics.

Ayrilana.1396:

There’s always an optimum and any change significant enough could alter what that is. That doesn’t mean that they want this, this, and this class to be highly preferred and this and this class to be largely ignored. That’s chosen entirely by the players that feel only the optimal builds are the way to go. For those that don’t, this isn’t as much of an issue.

There is no valid reason to not go for the optimum. Optimization is what have brought humans (as species) to where we currently are. Of course, you can live in the street, or even in the forest, but it’s far less optimal than in a house. Why must players choose in-game equivalent to living in the forest?

Read my post again about necro. I was speaking specfically about the jagged horrors and not the damage. Whether it was required or not to keep pace with other optimal builds is irrelevant to my post.

It’s on the players for believing that only optimal builds are capable of completing the content. Games will always have limitations but there’s more than enough buffer where players do not need the optimum in order to succeed.

Your analogy disregards what I stated while also reinforces it. You only see in extremes which is what I have seen among other die-hard meta only players. It’s always “meta = succeed” and “non-meta = failure”. You never realize that there are builds inbetween including those that are just below what is considered optimal at that time.

Obtena.7952:

Yeah, that sounds about right to me … but GW2 isn’t even close to doing that and the tools that Chronos and Revs that got nerfed weren’t achieving that either …

So tell me why again that these changes are bad if the goal is to achieve a healthy game environment?

Because the new state is worse than the old state.

Obtena.7952:

The fact is that the changes they made are actually inline with moving to a more healthy metagame environment and a more sensible, reasonable application of a class skills. Yet, you’re unhappy they did so, while saying they should attempt to do it. So weird when people contradict themselves.

At this rate it may take years to achieve a healthy metagame environment, while individual patches (like this one) can make it unhealthier.

Ayrilana.1396:

AndyS.5630:

Ayrilana.1396:

They removed something that had gone a bit overboard. You can’t honestly believe that being able to summon swarms of jagged horrors, that can be kept alive, which deal a lot of bleeding damage, was actually intended? There’s always a reason to bring a class. It’s just that some people prefer to go with what is the most optimal.

It didn’t go overboard. While that mechanic could be awkward, it was absolutely required one to bring necro DPS to a reasonable level. So yes, the damage dealt by horrors seemed to be intended, even though underlying mechanic was awkward, weird and unintended.

Ayrilana.1396:

Then that’s on the players and not anything within the game. There’s a decently sized margin between what high successful groups are doing and what it would take to fail. It’s more than the several percent you claim. Players very well can control what builds/compositions they have in their group but that by no way means that only those that they choose are what’s viable.

That is exactly on game. It takes exactly the several percent, because after that you risk facing harder mechanics.

Ayrilana.1396:

There’s always an optimum and any change significant enough could alter what that is. That doesn’t mean that they want this, this, and this class to be highly preferred and this and this class to be largely ignored. That’s chosen entirely by the players that feel only the optimal builds are the way to go. For those that don’t, this isn’t as much of an issue.

There is no valid reason to not go for the optimum. Optimization is what have brought humans (as species) to where we currently are. Of course, you can live in the street, or even in the forest, but it’s far less optimal than in a house. Why must players choose in-game equivalent to living in the forest?

Read my post again about necro. I was speaking specfically about the jagged horrors and not the damage. Whether it was required or not to keep pace with other optimal builds is irrelevant to my post.

It’s on the players for believing that only optimal builds are capable of completing the content. Games will always have limitations but there’s more than enough buffer where players do not need the optimum in order to succeed.

Your analogy disregards what I stated while also reinforces it. You only see in extremes which is what I have seen among other die-hard meta only players. It’s always “meta = succeed” and “non-meta = failure”. You never realize that there are builds inbetween including those that are just below what is considered optimal at that time.

There’s nothing wrong with asking for some parity in condi builds, even if you can beat the fight with any class.

I’m not really sure what you’re arguing here …