Guild Wars 2

Shadowstep.6049:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Obtena.7952:

Shadowstep.6049:

NikeEU.7690:

Shadowstep.6049:

NikeEU.7690:

Astralporing.1957:

Aldath.1275:

The fractals, dungeons and raids can all be clared by any team comp with knowledge of the scenario and boss mechanics. Period.

Nope. Dungeons and fractals? Yeah, possibly, even likely, depending on the skill of the group. Raids? Nope. Not on all bosses anyway. There are some minimum requirements there that not all group comps would fulfill.

Is that an objectively bad thing? there is optimal, there is suboptimal-but-viable, there is reasonable and there is unreasonable. Is it too high a bar to ask people to run at least reasonable builds?

I don’t think so. I think the base line of have a healer, enough cc and meager dps needed to beat enrage isn’t a very constrciting paragdigm. That’s all it takes to qualify as reasonable. If that is too restricting for you I’d suggest that raids just aren’t for you the same way ESL pvp isn’t for me.

People run viable builds but nobody wants them because everyone and their mother just blindly follows elitists guides that most can’t even execute properly.

Makes sense to me. If you can’t run a good build properly why should I expect you’ll do any bether running a trash build? I’LL take my chances with bad player on good build vs bad player on bad build.

Other builds are not trash…..

Don’t bother arguing … left over relics from Dungeon meta days. The idea that players equipped ‘properly’ that don’t know how to play are more valuable than players knowing their class in and out that don’t play meta is just grasping at relevance.

In a game where skilled players can ‘short’ instanced PVE content so badly, thinking like this are a parody of themselves.

To be fair, he compared “bad player with good build” and “bad player with bad build” – he never mentioned “good player with bad build”, which is something different

In his mind people with “bad” build are bad, period. Not to mention, those builds are not even “bad”, they are just not most optimal for elitist 6 man raid runs.

That depends what builds we’re talking about. There is most definitely trash builds with no synergy within themselves or with other party/squad members or bringing any sort of (useful) utility/good damage

Yes, but I think it’s pretty clear from past history what is being meant here. There are still a contingent of players that insist people should attain the skills to only play the meta build for whatever content it’s relevant to … even if they don’t have those skills. That’s exactly what was being referred to when that statement about rather having a bad player in a good build was being made … because how else do you measure a good build other than excluding any build that isn’t the meta? If you are the kind of player convinced that the meta is THE build to play, then it’s obvious to you that anything else isn’t as good, and therefore, bad.

What’s the other choice? How would someone of that mindset qualify non-meta builds as good or bad? It’s simply easier to say “If it’s not meta, it’s not good” and bully people.

This isn’t really off topic either … clearly we have people that are making similar ideas about what are ‘good’ and ‘bad’ builds for raids and throwing that about making claims about how raids are ruined and diversity is dead because the meta changes. People don’t like meta changes … it costs them big money to refit; the complaints aren’t motivated by a logical, critical thinking. It’s motivated by time, gold and personal attachment.

You’re free to post your non meta build and show us why your build is good. If it’s so good it might even become the new meta.

However the last time someone tried to do that he showcased a PS warrior with pack runes and got some very justified mockery.

It’s like whenever I join a pug raid with 3 necros, see 2 of them camping staff, VG with 20 bleed stacks and then those guys wondering why it fails. No your build really isn’t good.

I’ve discussed no build here and have no reason to. No one should care what is meta; it’s not relevant because you don’t need it to succeed in completing content in this game; you never did.

You don’t need to play meta for any other reason other than appeasing your own and others insecurities about players skills. The game instanced content, including raids, is designed to be completed by more than just engineered teams of meta players. It’s why no one needs 2 chronos for raids. It’s why the new changes don’t kill raid team diversity. It’s why people of many different levels of skill can achieve raid success.

Obtena.7952:

I’ve discussed no build here and have no reason to. No one should care what is meta; it’s not relevant because you don’t need it to succeed in completing content in this game; you never did.

Well you’re the one who said that meta players think non meta builds are all bad so I figured I’d give you the chance to post your build to prove them all wrong. I guess you’re all talk though.

It’s true you can probably get away with a lot of unorthodox builds but there is no argument that Ventari Rev or Shatter Heal Chrono is not as good as Druid/Ele heals and understanding what the meta is and why the subpar builds are subpar helps pave way towards improving them so people that enjoy the diversity aren’t kitten. Even meta players would like to have several different class/build to play.

You don’t need to play meta for any other reason other than appeasing your own and others insecurities about players skills. The game instanced content, including raids, is designed to be completed by more than just engineered teams of meta players. It’s why no one needs 2 chronos for raids. It’s why the new changes don’t kill raid team diversity. It’s why people of many different levels of skill can achieve raid success.

Most groups plays meta 5-5 comp because it provides the best boon uptime, best groupwide buffs and is a generally solid composition.

I mean sure you can sacrifice 40% dps or more by having no might, no fury and no quickness and run a 2-2-1-1-1-1-1-1 comp but like I said before this is just gimping yourself on purpose just to be a hipster.

If that’s how you wanna play then sure why not but that’s like arguing cars aren’t essential because you can walk everywhere a car can go in theory. I can tell you cars weren’t designed to cure people’s insecurity about walking.

People complete raids all the time without meta builds. Me posting a build doesn’t change that fact, nor does it prove people promoting meta builds are good or bad people; seems it’s just something you want to start an argument about … so /shrug.

I’m not debating why groups use meta builds, I’m not debating if meta are best builds for the content. I’m simply saying they aren’t necessary and just like dungeons, no reason to promote them as such. It’s not a hard concept. They certainly aren’t a reason to claim raid diversity is ruined because Anet upset the meta a little with changing a few unintended skill effects.

The relevance is that a poster claimed that Anet is imposing metas on people in raids and these changes make it even harder for him build a team because he claims he needs 2 chronos. That’s not true. That imposition is from players … the ones that push meta on people or brainwashed to believe the necessity of such a thing. If that’s not you, then perhaps you should feel less aggrieved by what I’m saying.

Frankly, if a raid could be done with a non-meta comp, then all this QQing about how the changes affect raid diversity is nonsense. Again, not logical arguments, emotional ones.

Obtena.7952:

That doesn’t change anything I said … GW2 isn’t ‘ruined’ in the sense you have to play specific builds to succeed in instanced content. The problem with your statements is that they don’t align with the reality of playing this game. Maybe YOU feel you need to team with 2 chrono’s to succeed in raids, but we already have examples of people succeeding without them.

So really, when you claim the game is ruined because people need to sit around for a long time to find specific builds/classes to win raids, that sounds more like people are substituting their time for being unskilled. Seems to me that’s exactly how challenging content should work. I don’t see a logicial argument that says it should be easy for unskilled players to succeed at the same rate … or at all … when compared to skilled players.

So please, recognize that Anet does want this to be their highest skilled content in the game and that when people QQ they need Chronos to be a crutch for them, that it’s the fact those people are unskilled ruining the game for them, not Anet’s game design.

If skill requirement for running double chronos is lower than for not running them, then it’s also part of “ruined” definition.

There is absolutely no reason to blame players for remaining unskilled. They are playing this game for fun, and are not getting paid for it. Once again, players are picky because of Anet’s game design. And once again, players are expected to optimize, you can’t blame them for that. On the other hand Anet could do more to improve the game balance.

Unskilled players playing “right” classes are allowed to have fun beating raids while staying unskilled, but unskilled players playing “wrong” classes aren’t. And getting skill with wrong class is hard too, because, once again, you’ll have troubles finding even a training raid. As you can see, the difference here is caused by class balance (credited to Anet), not by player skill difference. Because players of different classes should be allowed to remain unskilled equally.

Obtena.7952:

You see, the other thing is that diversity means there are always builds that are so bad that people won’t take them. It’s not a requirement that Anet ensure all builds are good. That’s silly. That’s also ignoring the fact that there is a team dynamic. Believe it or not, some people don’t mind what builds you use, or what classes they have in the team, or what gear you wear, because they know its not as important as knowing what to do and how to play your build.

At this point in this thread no one is even asking about making all builds good (even though it would be appreciated). Currently we want different professions be equally desirable and equally droppable.

Obtena.7952:

Again, it goes right back to how skilled the team is are and if they need to make up for a lack of skill with specific tools and professions. That ‘need’ to make up for lack of skill does not define what classes are viable and are not. It’s simply defines the skill threshold necessary to play those classes and succeed.

No. One wrong class in raid increases skill threshold for all 10 players, not just wrong class player. Because losing 10k DPS to class imbalance means that each person will have to improve their skill to average 1k extra DPS per person. One can’t compensate their own bad class with their own good skill.

Obtena.7952:

I think the part I bolded is where we fundamentally disagree. My view is that the game is too complex for Anet to ‘cater’ to any part of it to ensure class equality. I do believe that it’s not worth their effort to ensure that for a given level of player skill, all classes should perform within a range of efficiency for a subset of a particular game element, especially without considering the impact that would have to the other two.

You realize that on DPS benchmarks the difference between the top pure DPS class and the botton DPS class is almost 2 times, right? And efficiency of buff classes is above the top pure DPS class. We are simply too far away from equality. We are at two-fold or greater difference in efficiency between classes. Players just solve the equation and feel the value of meta.

Jagged Horrors were a good example of how to add necro DPS to raids without adding it anywhere else and do it without a skill split.

NikeEU.7690:

Shadowstep.6049:

NikeEU.7690:

Astralporing.1957:

Aldath.1275:

The fractals, dungeons and raids can all be clared by any team comp with knowledge of the scenario and boss mechanics. Period.

Nope. Dungeons and fractals? Yeah, possibly, even likely, depending on the skill of the group. Raids? Nope. Not on all bosses anyway. There are some minimum requirements there that not all group comps would fulfill.

Is that an objectively bad thing? there is optimal, there is suboptimal-but-viable, there is reasonable and there is unreasonable. Is it too high a bar to ask people to run at least reasonable builds?

I don’t think so. I think the base line of have a healer, enough cc and meager dps needed to beat enrage isn’t a very constrciting paragdigm. That’s all it takes to qualify as reasonable. If that is too restricting for you I’d suggest that raids just aren’t for you the same way ESL pvp isn’t for me.

People run viable builds but nobody wants them because everyone and their mother just blindly follows elitists guides that most can’t even execute properly.

Makes sense to me. If you can’t run a good build properly why should I expect you’ll do any bether running a trash build? I’LL take my chances with bad player on good build vs bad player on bad build.

I think we’re talking the difference between taking a daredevil and not taking one, or not taking a revenant anymore.

That’s how extreme it gets, not the build. Same as people kittening out an ele for running mainly D/WH over staff, newsflash it’s still OP DPS compared to most other classes as is daredevil DPS. But somehow everyone has to have their 3-4 eles or the run is going to be a disaster.

Let’s not pretend like people don’t have unreasonable requirements of raids that essentially have been cleared on the first week of their release.

Not unique of GW2, though. Wildstar had their medic/warrior stackers and WoW has their fotm class stacking people who reject X class when x class can deal the required DPS to make a phase simply because Y class does 20% higher DPS.

It’s one thing when you’re in a world race guild….but this game doesn’t even come close to having that with its first batch of raids being beat within a week of their release and only a couple of guilds actually competing.

Zenith.7301:

I think we’re talking the difference between taking a daredevil and not taking one, or not taking a revenant anymore.

What about the difference between taking necro and condi ranger? Or, worse, Necro and ele? Still so insignificant?

When I say trash build I don’t mean the difference between rev and guardian. I don’t mean thief vs ele. I mean meta ele build vs Shamans venom share thief healer.

And there are bad players on good builds. Bad players on bad builds. THERE is almost never good players on bad builds who aren’t intentionally trolling

Astralporing.1957:

Zenith.7301:

I think we’re talking the difference between taking a daredevil and not taking one, or not taking a revenant anymore.

What about the difference between taking necro and condi ranger? Or, worse, Necro and ele? Still so insignificant?

For the threshold to clear a phase? Still possible not bringing 3-4 eles. Of course you have interminably bad builds like power ranger or power mesmer that can’t remotely put out more than 20k DPS reliably (and both don’t offer much in aoe), but they have alternative builds that can offer enough DPS needed for the DPS check.

It’s just that revenant and thief are the most obvious cases of people being idiots about bringing a class that can perfectly contribute to a kill because like sheeple they read somewhere that you MUST have 3-4 eles or only a druid healer, otherwise they’re not going to beat a boss that can effectively be undermanned.

We’re no longer at the point where people are asked to bring good builds, but we’ve long been past the points where entire classes are marginalized despite having viable builds, just because they’re not the top build+class combo.

AndyS.5630:

Obtena.7952:

That doesn’t change anything I said … GW2 isn’t ‘ruined’ in the sense you have to play specific builds to succeed in instanced content. The problem with your statements is that they don’t align with the reality of playing this game. Maybe YOU feel you need to team with 2 chrono’s to succeed in raids, but we already have examples of people succeeding without them.

So really, when you claim the game is ruined because people need to sit around for a long time to find specific builds/classes to win raids, that sounds more like people are substituting their time for being unskilled. Seems to me that’s exactly how challenging content should work. I don’t see a logicial argument that says it should be easy for unskilled players to succeed at the same rate … or at all … when compared to skilled players.

So please, recognize that Anet does want this to be their highest skilled content in the game and that when people QQ they need Chronos to be a crutch for them, that it’s the fact those people are unskilled ruining the game for them, not Anet’s game design.

If skill requirement for running double chronos is lower than for not running them, then it’s also part of “ruined” definition.

There is absolutely no reason to blame players for remaining unskilled. They are playing this game for fun, and are not getting paid for it. Once again, players are picky because of Anet’s game design. And once again, players are expected to optimize, you can’t blame them for that. On the other hand Anet could do more to improve the game balance.

Unskilled players playing “right” classes are allowed to have fun beating raids while staying unskilled, but unskilled players playing “wrong” classes aren’t. And getting skill with wrong class is hard too, because, once again, you’ll have troubles finding even a training raid. As you can see, the difference here is caused by class balance (credited to Anet), not by player skill difference. Because players of different classes should be allowed to remain unskilled equally.

Obtena.7952:

You see, the other thing is that diversity means there are always builds that are so bad that people won’t take them. It’s not a requirement that Anet ensure all builds are good. That’s silly. That’s also ignoring the fact that there is a team dynamic. Believe it or not, some people don’t mind what builds you use, or what classes they have in the team, or what gear you wear, because they know its not as important as knowing what to do and how to play your build.

At this point in this thread no one is even asking about making all builds good (even though it would be appreciated). Currently we want different professions be equally desirable and equally droppable.

Obtena.7952:

Again, it goes right back to how skilled the team is are and if they need to make up for a lack of skill with specific tools and professions. That ‘need’ to make up for lack of skill does not define what classes are viable and are not. It’s simply defines the skill threshold necessary to play those classes and succeed.

No. One wrong class in raid increases skill threshold for all 10 players, not just wrong class player. Because losing 10k DPS to class imbalance means that each person will have to improve their skill to average 1k extra DPS per person. One can’t compensate their own bad class with their own good skill.

Obtena.7952:

I think the part I bolded is where we fundamentally disagree. My view is that the game is too complex for Anet to ‘cater’ to any part of it to ensure class equality. I do believe that it’s not worth their effort to ensure that for a given level of player skill, all classes should perform within a range of efficiency for a subset of a particular game element, especially without considering the impact that would have to the other two.

You realize that on DPS benchmarks the difference between the top pure DPS class and the botton DPS class is almost 2 times, right? And efficiency of buff classes is above the top pure DPS class. We are simply too far away from equality. We are at two-fold or greater difference in efficiency between classes. Players just solve the equation and feel the value of meta.

Jagged Horrors were a good example of how to add necro DPS to raids without adding it anywhere else and do it without a skill split.

I won’t argue with your wall of text. You don’t recognize the fact that if a group can’t raid without unnecessary elements like chronos or what have you, that’s not Anet’s failure in game design; it’s simple something that veteran gamers recognize as ‘lack of skill’. If remaining unskilled as a player is not the players’ fault, then I will just chalk that up to hubris.

Obtena.7952:

I won’t argue with your wall of text. You don’t recognize the fact that if a group can’t raid without unnecessary elements like chronos or what have you, that’s not Anet’s failure in game design; it’s simple something that veteran gamers recognize as ‘lack of skill’. If remaining unskilled as a player is not the players’ fault, then I will just chalk that up to hubris.

No, you don’t recognize that it’s a direct consequence of poor game design. Because once again, players (and humans in general) behave in an expected way. Remaining unskilled is of course a player’s fault, but it’s forgiving for some classes, and not forgiving for other classes, and this difference is entirely on Anet.

I know for a fact you are wrong, because if the need for chronos or whatever was absolutely dependent on Anet’s poor game design, it would affect all raid groups in the same way because it would be intrinsic in the design and unable to be affected by players abilities. Obviously that completely ridiculous and false because it doesn’t affect all raid groups in the same way … in fact some raids groups aren’t affected at all; they don’t need whatever predetermined skills or classes you think are necessary. You’re argument is reduced to absurdity.

Raids must be the most polarizing content ever introduced into GW2 by Anet… Reading this discussion makes me cringe. Some months ago it felt like people could still take whatever they wanted to play without raising too much of a ruckus but now that people even SELLS raid completion runs and expect you to show PROOF that you can join their elite and play with them… WTF is this game anymore? Anet isn’t the kittenty one here, it’s the community…

Raids aren’t actually that polarizing. THERE are just 3 or 4 malcontents on this forum who enjoy making long posts about non-topics.

Agree to Nike + adding that during dungeon high peak time there were lots of more posts in this and the discussion forum about dungeon groups kicking ppl, being toxic and some other whiny stuff.

AndyS.5630:

Obtena.7952:

I won’t argue with your wall of text. You don’t recognize the fact that if a group can’t raid without unnecessary elements like chronos or what have you, that’s not Anet’s failure in game design; it’s simple something that veteran gamers recognize as ‘lack of skill’. If remaining unskilled as a player is not the players’ fault, then I will just chalk that up to hubris.

No, you don’t recognize that it’s a direct consequence of poor game design. Because once again, players (and humans in general) behave in an expected way. Remaining unskilled is of course a player’s fault, but it’s forgiving for some classes, and not forgiving for other classes, and this difference is entirely on Anet.

Maybe for PUGS or very inexperienced groups. In reality, an unskilled perma dead berserker ele is just as bad as dead berserker necromancer. Dead DPS is no DPS.

Classes have inherent differences in skill cap. This was established on day 1 when each class wasn’t given the same amount of toughness, HP, etc…not by raids.

I can 100% guarantee you that a brand new elementalist who just got his first set of full “meta” berserker gear is MUCH farther away from Fennec’s optimal 45k+ DPS rotation on than a berserker necromancer who is in the top % of player skill.

Player skill flat out matters more than the classes you play, pending you use a reasonable gear and build. I completely understand why people would want to play off meta classes. Not everyone is going to only like to play Warrior, Druid, Chrono, or Ele. That doesn’t mean you can bring in your full nomads staff guardian and “loot stick” into raids. I can understand being attached to certain classes, not gear which is just a superficial mathematical equation.

NikeEU.7690:

Raids aren’t actually that polarizing. THERE are just 3 or 4 malcontents on this forum who enjoy making long posts about non-topics.

Yeah, keep believing that.

Astralporing.1957:

Yeah, keep believing that.

He’s right, though, there’s just three of you who inflate these thread counts; you, Ohoni, Rednik.

Obtena.7952:

I know for a fact you are wrong, because if the need for chronos or whatever was absolutely dependent on Anet’s poor game design, it would affect all raid groups in the same way because it would be intrinsic in the design and unable to be affected by players abilities.

Can you read my messages first please? I repeat for nth time, that there is no need for anything. It just increases the chances. But most importantly, it compensates for the lack of skill. But you repeat your mantra “get more skill”. Instead of getting more skill you can just go for mirror comp and get your kills without getting all that much skill.

Well here is the problem … whatever discussion you’re having with me … it’s clear you aren’t following what I’m saying either because it’s only a page or two back that you were moaning about these minor changes forcing people to play something they don’t want and making sensational comments about how Anet is ruining the game by some arbitrary definition that is completely dependent on player misconceptions.

Neither of these things makes sense, simply by looking at how people are currently playing the game. No one is forced to do something they don’t want and if there is ruinious effects, it’s due to how players think and what they believe is necessary to win, not how Anet designs the game. If you change your thinking and play how you want, you can succeed at raids. It happens.

Frankly, I don’t see a problem with this ‘mirror comp’ idea … people have adjusted to the changes, found new solutions to solve the ‘raids’ challenge … that is exactly in line with what I’m talking about. If anything, that just proves my point that the game isn’t ruined and the only barrier to success is players own preconceived notions of what’s ‘needed’. Thank you.

ButterPeanut.9746:

Maybe for PUGS or very inexperienced groups. In reality, an unskilled perma dead berserker ele is just as bad as dead berserker necromancer. Dead DPS is no DPS.

Classes have inherent differences in skill cap. This was established on day 1 when each class wasn’t given the same amount of toughness, HP, etc…not by raids.

Raids amplify it by being very damage oriented. Downed penalty removal through mastery further reduces the value of high survivability. Getting downed in raids is simply too forgiving.

ButterPeanut.9746:

I can 100% guarantee you that a brand new elementalist who just got his first set of full “meta” berserker gear is MUCH farther away from Fennec’s optimal 45k+ DPS rotation on than a berserker necromancer who is in the top % of player skill.

My first Golem attempt with an unskilled Tempest, missing even a few damage-oriented traits had put out more damage, than any known Necromancer benchmark. And yes, I mashed skills off cooldown like Necro. If we add extra 20% from Tempest Defense for Keep Construct that would already be above any other class benchmark.

So what am I about? While you are right if we are talking about different players, if it’s one player, he is very unlikely to be that bad with Ele (possibility of gear difference aside). And for KC if you can bring Ele for DPS, you can’t possibly deal more with any other class.

maxwelgm.4315:

No balance to any class will change the game breaking mechanic of quickness and might. You can do whatever you want, but unless you simply take away everyone’s ability to maintain 25 stacks of might (all alone, 1 person in 10 can do this by him or herself!) and 100% quickness uptime (2 person in 8 is all it takes, I mean yeah what?!) then some classes will always be absolutely necessary and others will always be absolutely unnecessary. Because you now have a situation where that swinging hammer guardian actually doesn’t have to give up on speed, while that super fast hitting Shiro Rev is just as normal paced as everyone else with 100% quickness uptime. And let us not even dwell on the topic of classes that have no ways at all of competitively being either power or condi if they chose so, like necro.

honestly id like to know 1 thing a warrior can do without might generation. you want to kick us out of the meta too?

sophiewhite.3149:

maxwelgm.4315:

No balance to any class will change the game breaking mechanic of quickness and might. You can do whatever you want, but unless you simply take away everyone’s ability to maintain 25 stacks of might (all alone, 1 person in 10 can do this by him or herself!) and 100% quickness uptime (2 person in 8 is all it takes, I mean yeah what?!) then some classes will always be absolutely necessary and others will always be absolutely unnecessary. Because you now have a situation where that swinging hammer guardian actually doesn’t have to give up on speed, while that super fast hitting Shiro Rev is just as normal paced as everyone else with 100% quickness uptime. And let us not even dwell on the topic of classes that have no ways at all of competitively being either power or condi if they chose so, like necro.

honestly id like to know 1 thing a warrior can do without might generation. you want to kick us out of the meta too?

That’s how people talk that don’t understand what balance would actually mean. It means that meta doesn’t exist under the perfect balance situation. Ideally, every class could provide some significant but not maximum number of might stacks, meaning that you don’t seek out any particular class for a skill or effect.

So to respond directly … if you truly want a more balanced situation in the game, then yes, that might mean ‘the only’ thing your warrior can do should be nerfed and that other professions may get some more abilities to provide might. Personally, I think it’s as stupid for a class to deliver 25 stacks of might consistently as it is to deliver extreme boon duration or stacks of random boons over lots of players.

Just like my first post in this thread … I’m just stupified how much people complain about raid diversity, then on the other hand, get all defensive when people suggest that changing tools on classes that would improve diversity. People really don’t have a clue what they want.

Obtena.7952:

Well here is the problem … whatever discussion you’re having with me … it’s clear you aren’t following what I’m saying either because it’s only a page or two back that you were moaning about these minor changes forcing people to play something they don’t want and making sensational comments about how Anet is ruining the game by some arbitrary definition that is completely dependent on player misconceptions.

My point is a set of arguments, and they can’t be picked and countered one by one. The three key points are:
1. Community is an essential component of GW2.
2. Class efficiency in raids is determined by Anet.
3. Community mostly wants best performing classes in raids.

“1” and “3” have stayed the same. “2” has changed. That’s the part that “ruined” the game right now. Because it has created less favorable conditions for some players.

Obtena.7952:

No one is forced to do something they don’t want and if there is ruinious effects, it’s due to how players think and what they believe is necessary to win, not how Anet designs the game. If you change your thinking and play how you want, you can succeed at raids. It happens.

45k benchmark vs 24k benchmark is a ruinous effect due to Anet game design. You can say that it doesn’t matter in 10-man clears. But what about some challenge clears like 6-man? You can say that Chronomancer isn’t needed in 10-mans, but ironically you present 3-man VG as a proof and it seems that a Chronomancer is actually needed there.
Low-skills require a Chrono for perma quickness and alacrity.
High-skills require a Chrono for invulnerability on low-man VG.
All skill levels can make some raid where they need a Chrono.
What would you run for 2-man VG? Who could possibly solo VG?

That part of the game is not ruined just because some less favourable conditions exist for some players. That’s cherrypicking your argument. I mean, that’s just vitriol … so every time something changes ingame and someone spouts off they don’t like it, the game is ruined? Well, I guess you better get used to ruined MMO’s because game and class changes happen ALL the time.

As to the other point you are making … it’s irrevelant … What about challenging clears like 6 man? If the raids were designed and balanced around a 6 man team, you might have a point, but they aren’t so you don’t. Claiming chrono changes (or any other class efficiency issues) are bad because they don’t perform as well under raid conditions that raids aren’t designed for in the first place and obviously more difficult is ridiculous.

If anything, it proves exactly why the change was necessary. My reference to the 3 man VG was not proof of anything other than chrono’s make raids way too easy … so thanks for bringing that up and reminding us why these changes are good.

To be fair Crystal Reid said raids were designed with enough room for skilled players to do impressive things the devs never planned for.

Yes, and that’s a comment that is based on a relative assessment to what unskilled players can do. So I don’t see how any class change would affect that. Also, skilled players are still going to do things that devs didn’t plan for.

Therefore, the argument that AndyS was making where the changes are bad because of how they affect exceptional raid conditions is still nonsense.

sophiewhite.3149:

maxwelgm.4315:

No balance to any class will change the game breaking mechanic of quickness and might. You can do whatever you want, but unless you simply take away everyone’s ability to maintain 25 stacks of might (all alone, 1 person in 10 can do this by him or herself!) and 100% quickness uptime (2 person in 8 is all it takes, I mean yeah what?!) then some classes will always be absolutely necessary and others will always be absolutely unnecessary. Because you now have a situation where that swinging hammer guardian actually doesn’t have to give up on speed, while that super fast hitting Shiro Rev is just as normal paced as everyone else with 100% quickness uptime. And let us not even dwell on the topic of classes that have no ways at all of competitively being either power or condi if they chose so, like necro.

honestly id like to know 1 thing a warrior can do without might generation. you want to kick us out of the meta too?

If warrior brought literally 0 boons it would still be in every raid group because of Banners and Empower allies. The might is a nice bonus, but might is fairly easy to come by.

And yes I would want to kick the current warrior out of the meta and raids as a whole if I could. Its current class design is awful for raids and it needs badly to be reworked. It has mediocre personal damage but insane passive group buffs which makes it relatively unimportant whether you play well or not and forces it to be included in every fight. Furthermore two of those passive buffs are utility skills so you only have one actual utility slot, which is stupid as a general idea but also reduces the flexibility of the class.

Dinosaurs.8674:

which makes it relatively unimportant whether you play well or not

This is very true. Part of the problem is playing warrior well is extremely hard, and without a DPS meter its largely undetectable. Using a memory reader you can see a Power PS who is really good pull 18k DPS at Sabetha. A bad warrior may only pull 15k, but without the meter you’d never know. The first 15k dps for warrior is easy, the last 5k is actually challenging, especially in a real raid scenario.

We need a legit DPS meter.

It will always be almost impossible for them to achieve any semblance of balance between the professions given the complexity of builds, the boon system and group composition factors in this game. The only way they could do it would involve watering down every profession to the point that they all feel the same to play – something none of us really want.

With their current raid model, it will always be about a handful of professions (currently Mesmer, warrior, ele, druid, sometimes necros), to the detriment of all others. It is just the nature of a limited raiding model.

It is a bad system – with no real solution – that only adds negativity to the game, while also turning almost every player who doesn’t want to be left out of raiding into carbon copies of builds they find online.

Blaeys.3102:

It will always be almost impossible for them to achieve any semblance of balance between the professions given the complexity of builds, the boon system and group composition factors in this game. The only way they could do it would involve watering down every profession to the point that they all feel the same to play – something none of us really want.

With their current raid model, it will always be about a handful of professions (currently Mesmer, warrior, ele, druid, sometimes necros), to the detriment of all others. It is just the nature of a limited raiding model.

It is a bad system – with no real solution – that only adds negativity to the game, while also turning almost every player who doesn’t want to be left out of raiding into carbon copies of builds they find online.

I’ll just note that pvp and wvw are like this too. And, unlike raids, they actually balance with an eye towards those game modes.

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

It will always be almost impossible for them to achieve any semblance of balance between the professions given the complexity of builds, the boon system and group composition factors in this game. The only way they could do it would involve watering down every profession to the point that they all feel the same to play – something none of us really want.

With their current raid model, it will always be about a handful of professions (currently Mesmer, warrior, ele, druid, sometimes necros), to the detriment of all others. It is just the nature of a limited raiding model.

It is a bad system – with no real solution – that only adds negativity to the game, while also turning almost every player who doesn’t want to be left out of raiding into carbon copies of builds they find online.

I’ll just note that pvp and wvw are like this too. And, unlike raids, they actually balance with an eye towards those game modes.

Yes, metas and preferred professions exist in both of those game modes as well.

The difference is that suboptimal meta builds in WvW don’t matter as much because that game mode is more about macro-strategy (where and when you take objectives and positioning to ensure a numeric advantage over the enemy when possible). In PvP, balance is still an issue, but Anet offset that by giving people a rewarding experience (literally and figurately) even if they fail or cannot move past the lower brackets. Neither of those things can be said of raids.

The hard truth remains – because of the SEVERE disparity between top end builds/professions and suboptimal builds/professions – coupled with the general community’s disdain for anything too far removed from the accepted meta, there is almost no decent raiding experience for scrapper engineers, burn guardians, revenants of any kind, longbow rangers, or several dozen other playstyles that people actually enjoy.

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

It will always be almost impossible for them to achieve any semblance of balance between the professions given the complexity of builds, the boon system and group composition factors in this game. The only way they could do it would involve watering down every profession to the point that they all feel the same to play – something none of us really want.

With their current raid model, it will always be about a handful of professions (currently Mesmer, warrior, ele, druid, sometimes necros), to the detriment of all others. It is just the nature of a limited raiding model.

It is a bad system – with no real solution – that only adds negativity to the game, while also turning almost every player who doesn’t want to be left out of raiding into carbon copies of builds they find online.

I’ll just note that pvp and wvw are like this too. And, unlike raids, they actually balance with an eye towards those game modes.

Yes, metas and preferred professions exist in both of those game modes as well.

The difference is that suboptimal meta builds in WvW don’t matter as much because that game mode is more about macro-strategy (where and when you take objectives and positioning to ensure a numeric advantage over the enemy when possible). In PvP, balance is still an issue, but Anet offset that by giving people a rewarding experience (literally and figurately) even if they fail or cannot move past the lower brackets. Neither of those things can be said of raids.

Err … you can say this about raids too. Sub-optimal builds and comps beat raid bosses all the time. I’ll give you that you don’t get much for failure though. (You don’t get anything for failure in wvw ether though).

Heck, some posters in this thread think this discussion is a non-issue because any composition can beat raids.

Personally though, I think anet can rethink raid balance, as, barring engineers, it was in a pretty good place pre-patch. And I think engis can be brought back in if they unnerf slick shoes.

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

It will always be almost impossible for them to achieve any semblance of balance between the professions given the complexity of builds, the boon system and group composition factors in this game. The only way they could do it would involve watering down every profession to the point that they all feel the same to play – something none of us really want.

With their current raid model, it will always be about a handful of professions (currently Mesmer, warrior, ele, druid, sometimes necros), to the detriment of all others. It is just the nature of a limited raiding model.

It is a bad system – with no real solution – that only adds negativity to the game, while also turning almost every player who doesn’t want to be left out of raiding into carbon copies of builds they find online.

I’ll just note that pvp and wvw are like this too. And, unlike raids, they actually balance with an eye towards those game modes.

Yes, metas and preferred professions exist in both of those game modes as well.

The difference is that suboptimal meta builds in WvW don’t matter as much because that game mode is more about macro-strategy (where and when you take objectives and positioning to ensure a numeric advantage over the enemy when possible). In PvP, balance is still an issue, but Anet offset that by giving people a rewarding experience (literally and figurately) even if they fail or cannot move past the lower brackets. Neither of those things can be said of raids.

Err … you can say this about raids too. Sub-optimal builds and comps beat raid bosses all the time. I’ll give you that you don’t get much for failure though. (You don’t get anything for failure in wvw ether though).

Heck, some posters in this thread think this discussion is a non-issue because any composition can beat raids.

Personally though, I think anet can rethink raid balance, as, barring engineers, it was in a pretty good place pre-patch. And I think engis can be brought back in if they unnerf slick shoes.

In a perfect world, you would be right. The reality in game is much different – at least from what I see (of course, your perspective may be different).

And, as a clarification, wvw is pretty much always rewarding because of reward tracks (great change), but that isn’t something that can be readily translated to raiding.

I want to see if there’s a reliable dps meter anywhere cos i always have good rotations espwcialy on sab. By contrast, ill see other warriors that wanna play it safe on flamewall phase, so they’re just moving with grp and just AA’ing the whole time.. and idk what’s the point of that. I mean our dps itself is miserable, but most of them even fail even that so they manage to bring dps even lower.

Dinosaurs.8674:

honestly id like to know 1 thing a warrior can do without might generation. you want to kick us out of the meta too?

If warrior brought literally 0 boons it would still be in every raid group because of Banners and Empower allies. The might is a nice bonus, but might is fairly easy to come by.

And yes I would want to kick the current warrior out of the meta and raids as a whole if I could. Its current class design is awful for raids and it needs badly to be reworked. It has mediocre personal damage but insane passive group buffs which makes it relatively unimportant whether you play well or not and forces it to be included in every fight. Furthermore two of those passive buffs are utility skills so you only have one actual utility slot, which is stupid as a general idea but also reduces the flexibility of the class.

Yes I agree nerf our banners or might stacking capabilities if u must, I don’t rly care about them tbh.. but at the same time, increase our dps to compete with a thief or ele, or at least to a lvl that is manageable. Tbh warrior is just a joke on its current meta for being able to apply self-boons that keep us alive and condi cleansing that often without relying on another class, like it’s literally broken now.

I was doing lvl 100 fractal and my warrior died for not having enough condi cleanse even with one utility skill with a 40s or so cd or it, and our grp wiped also. So I swap to rev, ez pz I’m literally never downed and I’m facetanking boss the entire time. What’s the secret behind it? Oh I know.. about 60% dmg reduction for most of time (prot + jalis hammers + infinite defense pot) and that’s not all, I also got two sources of quick condi cleanse, a heal skill and swap to staff set as needed. Again, just one point to illustrate how broken warrior is in comparison to other heavy classes atm

nagr.1593:

I want to see if there’s a reliable dps meter anywhere cos i always have good rotations espwcialy on sab. By contrast, ill see other warriors that wanna play it safe on flamewall phase, so they’re just moving with grp and just AA’ing the whole time.. and idk what’s the point of that. I mean our dps itself is miserable, but most of them even fail even that so they manage to bring dps even lower.

Dinosaurs.8674:

honestly id like to know 1 thing a warrior can do without might generation. you want to kick us out of the meta too?

If warrior brought literally 0 boons it would still be in every raid group because of Banners and Empower allies. The might is a nice bonus, but might is fairly easy to come by.

And yes I would want to kick the current warrior out of the meta and raids as a whole if I could. Its current class design is awful for raids and it needs badly to be reworked. It has mediocre personal damage but insane passive group buffs which makes it relatively unimportant whether you play well or not and forces it to be included in every fight. Furthermore two of those passive buffs are utility skills so you only have one actual utility slot, which is stupid as a general idea but also reduces the flexibility of the class.

Yes I agree nerf our banners or might stacking capabilities if u must, I don’t rly care about them tbh.. but at the same time, increase our dps to compete with a thief or ele, or at least to a lvl that is manageable. Tbh warrior is just a joke on its current meta for being able to apply self-boons that keep us alive and condi cleansing that often without relying on another class, like it’s literally broken now.

I was doing lvl 100 fractal and my warrior died for not having enough condi cleanse even with one utility skill with a 40s or so cd or it, and our grp wiped also. So I swap to rev, ez pz I’m literally never downed and I’m facetanking boss the entire time. What’s the secret behind it? Oh I know.. about 60% dmg reduction for most of time (prot + jalis hammers + infinite defense pot) and that’s not all, I also got two sources of quick condi cleanse, a heal skill and swap to staff set as needed. Again, just one point to illustrate how broken warrior is in comparison to other heavy classes atm

Emm… you know that you can swap 1 trait in tactics and your offhand to warhorn, and get two amazing AOE condition cleanses on ridiculously short CD, which also buffing everyone around with swiftness and vigor?
Also if your group dying on Trin because no warrior you all doing something VERY wrong.

I mean you’d have to give up +5% dmg as well as having shield which means less cc and block if she teles to u, plus vigor is useless since the only thing you’d need to dodge when ranged is her lightning whip attack. Rev also pulses perma fury, swiftness, as well some might so there’s no need to take wh at all except for the trait u mentioned. I mean i agree it’s an option, u just have to give up a few things as I mentioned while rev doesn’t have to sacrifice anything.

Plus I actually did the math wrong, for rev in this case it’s 78% dmg reduction as well as 20% condi reduction about half of the time, or an average of ~60% dmg reduction whole time. No wonder I was able to facetank boss so easily as rev, while it’s hard to even survive for few secs as war. This same thing applies to guard also as they have easy access to prot and regen as well, I mean it’s just not fair. Plus I forgot rev actually has access to endure pain as war just with dwarf stance, plus shorter cd as well. With warrior its troublesome as u wanna bring banner and a signet, so u can’t just run that all the time.

Also, ur argument about war being needed for trin cos of banner etc. is not that strong at all. When u think about it, for pugs rev would more then make up for lack of disc banner as well, AP + perma fury is actually better for group dps. So literally 0 reason to bring war for this fight unless u have another rev or something, or if u need better cc.

Blaeys.3102:

With their current raid model, it will always be about a handful of professions (currently Mesmer, warrior, ele, druid, sometimes necros), to the detriment of all others. It is just the nature of a limited raiding model.

To which I blame the “meta” for, as that’s what most look at for raid comp. Lose that and bring in people that can do the job needed in spite of class and we have a win.

nagr.1593:

I mean you’d have to give up +5% dmg as well as having shield which means less cc and block if she teles to u, plus vigor is useless since the only thing you’d need to dodge when ranged is her lightning whip attack. Rev also pulses perma fury, swiftness, as well some might so there’s no need to take wh at all except for the trait u mentioned. I mean i agree it’s an option, u just have to give up a few things as I mentioned while rev doesn’t have to sacrifice anything.

Plus I actually did the math wrong, for rev in this case it’s 78% dmg reduction as well as 20% condi reduction about half of the time, or an average of ~60% dmg reduction whole time. No wonder I was able to facetank boss so easily as rev, while it’s hard to even survive for few secs as war. This same thing applies to guard also as they have easy access to prot and regen as well, I mean it’s just not fair. Plus I forgot rev actually has access to endure pain as war just with dwarf stance, plus shorter cd as well. With warrior its troublesome as u wanna bring banner and a signet, so u can’t just run that all the time.

Also, ur argument about war being needed for trin cos of banner etc. is not that strong at all. When u think about it, for pugs rev would more then make up for lack of disc banner as well, AP + perma fury is actually better for group dps. So literally 0 reason to bring war for this fight unless u have another rev or something, or if u need better cc.

The thing is, you are still thinking about perfect group comps when you are pugging and playing with randoms. Banners at Mai Trin are inefficient if the group is not stacking at all. Additionally, most pugs don’t care about ideal circumstances. They want to get the content done in a safe but also fast enough manner.

If you really have troubles with warrior at Mai just go Shake it Off, Signet of Vigor, Endure Pain/Banner. You cannot die. For Weapons you can also use Mace – Sword for 2 blocks. Imho way better than shield as you have enough cc with headbut, lower cd on riposte compared to shield 5 and there are 4 other players for cc sharing with the group as well if you are not playing with super new players which is unrealistic at 100.
Ofc you’ll lose a lil bit of dps but that doesn’t matter at all. The most important thing at Mai in pugs is that nobody’s going down and there is no slide into the descent from one to full wipe.

Concerning all your other posts in this forum you are lacking a profound understanding of the different game modes.
Fractals in pugs is more like a “1 individual in a 5 man group” because synergies and perfect teamplay is not that important while pugging raids needs way more coordination and get together than every other content. This is why T4-fractals are only a very little stepping stone to raids. Overall almost all of them are too easy to finish even when low-manning.

Joxer.6024:

Blaeys.3102:

With their current raid model, it will always be about a handful of professions (currently Mesmer, warrior, ele, druid, sometimes necros), to the detriment of all others. It is just the nature of a limited raiding model.

To which I blame the “meta” for, as that’s what most look at for raid comp. Lose that and bring in people that can do the job needed in spite of class and we have a win.

That’s very true, but – unfortunately – there is no way to lose it in the current model.

When developers balance an entire game mode almost exclusively around the meta, this is the situation that results – where math, rather than flavor, fun and build diversity, rule the day.

In the current model, raiding will (realistically) always cater to a tiny number of professions and builds. There is just no way around that without either completely destroying build diversity or nerfing the content to the point that the meta builds actually make it too easy.

It’s a broken system imo, and needs to be rethought.

Indeed, the system is broken. But it’s not the raids themselves, but rather classes and buff mechanisms. If a few unique classes offer massively powerful buffs no one else can provide (mesmer – quickness + alacrity; warrior – banners + EA; druid – gotl + spotter), while the buff limit is 5 characters, then the current situation shouldn’t surprise anyone. Class balance in GW2 is, by far, the worst of any MMO I’ve played (except WoW classic, but they learned pretty quickly after that period) and no changes to the content itself would be able to fix that.

I never told anything about nerfing ps, just talking to you since you have problems with warrior in pugs as it seems. I play fracs with a warrior without any issues that’s why I gave you some hints.

Blaeys.3102:

Joxer.6024:

Blaeys.3102:

With their current raid model, it will always be about a handful of professions (currently Mesmer, warrior, ele, druid, sometimes necros), to the detriment of all others. It is just the nature of a limited raiding model.

To which I blame the “meta” for, as that’s what most look at for raid comp. Lose that and bring in people that can do the job needed in spite of class and we have a win.

That’s very true, but – unfortunately – there is no way to lose it in the current model.

When developers balance an entire game mode almost exclusively around the meta, this is the situation that results – where math, rather than flavor, fun and build diversity, rule the day.

In the current model, raiding will (realistically) always cater to a tiny number of professions and builds. There is just no way around that without either completely destroying build diversity or nerfing the content to the point that the meta builds actually make it too easy.

It’s a broken system imo, and needs to be rethought.

Except the content isn’t designed around a meta. A meta forms around the content and shifts based on changes to the encounter or builds being nerfed/buffed.

This is why no matter what you do there will always be a meta. Something will always be superior in one aspect and that aspect is what cause them to feel like they are relied on where others are neglected.

TexZero.7910:

Blaeys.3102:

Joxer.6024:

Blaeys.3102:

With their current raid model, it will always be about a handful of professions (currently Mesmer, warrior, ele, druid, sometimes necros), to the detriment of all others. It is just the nature of a limited raiding model.

To which I blame the “meta” for, as that’s what most look at for raid comp. Lose that and bring in people that can do the job needed in spite of class and we have a win.

That’s very true, but – unfortunately – there is no way to lose it in the current model.

When developers balance an entire game mode almost exclusively around the meta, this is the situation that results – where math, rather than flavor, fun and build diversity, rule the day.

In the current model, raiding will (realistically) always cater to a tiny number of professions and builds. There is just no way around that without either completely destroying build diversity or nerfing the content to the point that the meta builds actually make it too easy.

It’s a broken system imo, and needs to be rethought.

Except the content isn’t designed around a meta. A meta forms around the content and shifts based on changes to the encounter or builds being nerfed/buffed.

This is why no matter what you do there will always be a meta. Something will always be superior in one aspect and that aspect is what cause them to feel like they are relied on where others are neglected.

Which is exactly why a “one size fits all model” attitude toward raid design will never work.

Blaeys.3102:

TexZero.7910:

Blaeys.3102:

Joxer.6024:

Blaeys.3102:

With their current raid model, it will always be about a handful of professions (currently Mesmer, warrior, ele, druid, sometimes necros), to the detriment of all others. It is just the nature of a limited raiding model.

To which I blame the “meta” for, as that’s what most look at for raid comp. Lose that and bring in people that can do the job needed in spite of class and we have a win.

That’s very true, but – unfortunately – there is no way to lose it in the current model.

When developers balance an entire game mode almost exclusively around the meta, this is the situation that results – where math, rather than flavor, fun and build diversity, rule the day.

In the current model, raiding will (realistically) always cater to a tiny number of professions and builds. There is just no way around that without either completely destroying build diversity or nerfing the content to the point that the meta builds actually make it too easy.

It’s a broken system imo, and needs to be rethought.

Except the content isn’t designed around a meta. A meta forms around the content and shifts based on changes to the encounter or builds being nerfed/buffed.

This is why no matter what you do there will always be a meta. Something will always be superior in one aspect and that aspect is what cause them to feel like they are relied on where others are neglected.

Which is exactly why a “one size fits all model” attitude toward raid design will never work.

It’s actually why a one difficulty mode works. It makes balancing infinitely easier as there’s not 256k variables to work through to point to as the source of the problem.

But that’s neither here nor there, and you really should stop pushing the easy mode agenda.

Blaeys.3102:

Joxer.6024:

Blaeys.3102:

With their current raid model, it will always be about a handful of professions (currently Mesmer, warrior, ele, druid, sometimes necros), to the detriment of all others. It is just the nature of a limited raiding model.

To which I blame the “meta” for, as that’s what most look at for raid comp. Lose that and bring in people that can do the job needed in spite of class and we have a win.

That’s very true, but – unfortunately – there is no way to lose it in the current model.

When developers balance an entire game mode almost exclusively around the meta, this is the situation that results – where math, rather than flavor, fun and build diversity, rule the day.

In the current model, raiding will (realistically) always cater to a tiny number of professions and builds. There is just no way around that without either completely destroying build diversity or nerfing the content to the point that the meta builds actually make it too easy.

It’s a broken system imo, and needs to be rethought.

“When developers balance an entire game mode almost exclusively around the meta, this is the situation that results – where math, rather than flavor, fun and build diversity, rule the day.”

Now that’s something I wasn’t aware and shines a whole new light on things. Thanks for that and yea, sadly if that’s the case then it wont be changing any time soon.

TexZero.7910:

It’s actually why a one difficulty mode works. It makes balancing infinitely easier as there’s not 256k variables to work through to point to as the source of the problem.

But that’s neither here nor there, and you really should stop pushing the easy mode agenda.

Saying that balance must be done around one fragment of one game mode with only small minority of overall players playing it – is very funny indeed.
How about being sane developers and doing other way around?

Joxer.6024:

“When developers balance an entire game mode almost exclusively around the meta, this is the situation that results – where math, rather than flavor, fun and build diversity, rule the day.”

Now that’s something I wasn’t aware and shines a whole new light on things. Thanks for that and yea, sadly if that’s the case then it wont be changing any time soon.

It’s pretty obvious that the content of the quote is utter nonsense.

Apart from that, it’s what Tex already wrote: There will always be a meta that many pugs want to enforce for dumb reasons. We saw that in dungeons, we saw/see it in fractals, why should raids be any different.