Guild Wars 2

Boon-sharing is a problem. Bosses can ignore some conditions and are more easily tuned but players are less controllable.

If bosses regularly corrupted or wiped player boons, then the boon-share dps scaling would drop. Boss health could be trimmed to compensate.

Astralporing.1957:

Obtena.7952:

Astralporing.1957:

Obtena.7952:

Frankly, if the class changes make those classes less desirable to play, that alone increases the diversity that people will have for raid comps.

Suuure. Making less classes desirable for raids will increase the diversity somehow.

When no one is exceptional, everyone is average. When everyone is average, there isn’t a reason to exclude people. That might be hard for someone that doesn’t understand what average is or that doesn’t understand that you don’t need optimal to succeed in raids, but nonetheless, it works. Whether you believe it or not is not a prerequisite to it being true.

Are we there yet? Probably not, but these changes are putting things in that direction. You can deny it if you like or believe it; neither is relevant. What matters is that it’s happening because Anet wants it to. You’re choice is to adapt or be miserable.

If you think that changes to necro were moving them from OP to average, then we really are playing a different game.

I don’t think that so … /shrug

Anchoku.8142:

Boon-sharing is a problem. Bosses can ignore some conditions and are more easily tuned but players are less controllable.

If bosses regularly corrupted or wiped player boons, then the boon-share dps scaling would drop. Boss health could be trimmed to compensate.

You’d think so…

But Sloth & KC both have boon striping mechanics and it doesn’t do much.

Boonshare is far from the problem. The problem with diversity when it comes to meta is overloaded kits as far as damage, group utility, group healing/failsafe. If you look at the classes that are constantly bouncing in and out of meta favor they usually are balanced on a knife edge and have something in there that brings them above the fail safe of ele/warrior/mes/druid which are staples (and even the ele part is debatable).

Boon sharing is far from the problem, the problem there is actually that so few classes get access to boons in the necessary quantities to compete with big league hitters like PS Warrior (Might) or Mesmer (Quickness+Share) or even Druid (Protection/Fury). If you removed the ICD on Herald’s Shared Empowerment, made Impossible Odds AOE Quickness, or did something along those lines you could do wonders for boon diversity in raids.

I honestly am a fan of the 10 spread idea at this point. IMO it’s not rly a problem to have certain boons locked into one class as that’s the attraction of bringing one of those. The “problem” if you wanna call it that only arises when 6 out of the 10 spots are always taken by those same classes.

nagr.1593:

Dinosaurs.8674:

What he’s saying isn’t necessarily wrong. Suppose that there were one class that were so much better than all others, such that every slot went to that class. All other classes are equally good. Then suppose the superclass got nerfed into the ground. Suddenly eight classes are great instead of just one. This could also happen if the nerfed class filled multiple specific niches that are difficult to fill otherwise.

What your said makes sense. But in this case here, there’s little doubt abt what the supposed ‘superclass’ is now. This class obviously has 4 reserved slots in any group on most encounters, like double what every other class has. This part of reason why it’s sooo much easier to get a temp when u post for it than even a ps warrior, I mean c’mon.

Look I get it everyone’s hesitant to talk abt the elephant in the room so ill do that now. Ele dps is just ridiculous atm – it was alrdy always insanely op but now it’s gone too far. When u think abt a class that can reach close to 50k dps while almost all other class struggling to get half that, u know something wrong. Warrior meta dps was already pathetic to begin with, now it’s even more pathetic that it downright laughable when u put it in perspective. Warrior is what, mid 20ish dps.. compared to insane op damage that is made even more insanely op with alacrity and quickness? It’s like fighting swords with sticks.. no competition at all. /bows

So now that elephant has been saluted and recognised, I continue to speculate abt future patch. Ele being superclass atm will get nerfed to the ground, or other class be buffed. It’s simple rly.. and before anyone throw their hand up and say the end is nigh, I give one reason why this will be good thing:

- Pugs who struggle with eles, as they should

I rest my case. When u think abt amount of players who botch rotations on ele or are first to step up and sacrifice themselces without no preamble or purpose for grp, what u will realise is that their dps nerf has not been a complete nerf. It is a blessing in disguise that will actually stabilise diversity and dps overall

What the kitten? No, that’s not what I was saying at all. If you want to use the word “superclass” then it applies to mesmer, druid, and warrior. Those are the classes that are in every fight. Those are the classes that are hitting well over 50k group DPS.

Ele DPS is fine. Sure it can hit big numbers on large hitboxes, but that’s only in ideal scenarios. Personally I would like it if meteor shower was nerfed for large hitboxes, but I don’t think it’s anywhere near as important as addressing mesmer, druid, and warrior, all of which bring disgusting support buffs which make them mandatory in every fight.

Honestly almost every time I see groups try to use 4 eles it goes horribly. It does not have 4 reserved slots. People discount guardian because they are stupid but guardian is also extremely good. Thief still deals the most damage in a lot of fights. Rev is useful in a couple situations but it’s rarely used because of its similarity to guardian more than its lack of dps compared to ele. The only class that doesn’t get used because of low DPS is necromancer. In general, we have a situation with the DPS classes where which one you choose is dependent on the utility you need for that fight, which is the ideal scenario. By contrast, chrono/warrior/druid are just in literally every fight and they still would be if their non-dps utility was garbage.

Sure if you look at speed kills they’re using 3-4 eles but that does not mean that’s the best strat for every group. In fact it almost certainly means it’s not because it’s a comp that goes for all out offense and ignores utility that makes the fights easier.

Boons could be punished a lot harder such that building for boons becomes unfavorable, just like building for vulnerability or blind. Then players are left with closer to solo dps and balance becomes easier.

Anchoku.8142:

Boons could be punished a lot harder such that building for boons becomes unfavorable, just like building for vulnerability or blind. Then players are left with closer to solo dps and balance becomes easier.

We already have more than enough useless stuff in this game. No need to make more.

Anchoku.8142:

Boons could be punished a lot harder such that building for boons becomes unfavorable, just like building for vulnerability or blind. Then players are left with closer to solo dps and balance becomes easier.

That’s not the point. Boons are integral to combat in the game and are accurately balanced around, not only that by solo dps isn’t what you should ever strive for in group content.

Anchoku.8142:

Boons could be punished a lot harder such that building for boons becomes unfavorable, just like building for vulnerability or blind. Then players are left with closer to solo dps and balance becomes easier.

Yes I would be favorable to this. For one reason only, it’d open more doors than it would close. You don’t need two chronos anymore: made boons arc to all 10 players, then reduce duration of those boons thus running with chrono and rev pair will substitute the 2 chrono staple.

Similar deal with warriors. I don’t like having to be forced to run strength runes and eat boon duration food. I get it, my class is abt support, but I want to shine and if I pull off perfect rotations I should not get hampered with limitations to my class like never being able to ever come toe-to-toe with any of the dps classes in terms of matching their output. You ask me, being corralled into running suboptimal runes and foods is part of the reason why our dps sucks so bad. Best case scenario I get abt 15k ticks with my f1 primal, and assuming realistic buffs abt 65k with hb. Adjusting for quickness, assume cd of 2.5s and u get about 26k dps best case scenario. Sustainable? Obviously not, ur almost always req to swap sets to cc whenever breakbar comes up.

It’s just humiliating for support classes like this when u hear these stories (not over-the-top either !)of Eles achieving upwards of 40k dps with realistic buffs. In raid settings, u can assume healer and maybe some protective boons as well, this actually boosts survivability for Eles more than they would be solo. So what are the tradeoffs for this? Higher survivability thanks to 10man support + heals, maximized dps breaking through the roof. No drawbacks at all here

Whatever is decide, bottom line I want that this huge unbreachable gap in dps between ele and other classes be lowered. No one should be capable of 50k dps, ever. I don’t care if it’s exclusive to organized grps or even if they’re downed half the time while managing it, since pugs can’t match it. Even dinosaurs agree this threshold should be group dps, not solo dps.

So as I said above, go ahead and punish building boons in individual roles to be much harder. Everyone wins, less chrono and more rev, maybe even reduce warrior prescence in grps but they won’t be pigeonholed into running str runes for pugs anymore, so on.

Ideally you should be more focused on balance, like how guard can outshine rev in almost every single area – again, no class should be consigned to living in shadow of another. But one thing don’t do, is remove or nerf class-specific buffs or make them shared with other classes. This will kill class diversity no matter how you slice it.

Cos remove banners and make it harder to solo stack might, congrats you’ve officially neutered the class way past repair. We have no use anymore, not as long as DPS exists.

No one is capable of 50k dps in an actual raid. Please show me a video of a raid boss kill with someone getting 50k dps.

nagr.1593:

Whatever is decide, bottom line I want that this huge unbreachable gap in dps between ele and other classes be lowered. No one should be capable of 50k dps, ever. I don’t care if it’s exclusive to organized grps or even if they’re downed half the time while managing it, since pugs can’t match it. Even dinosaurs agree this threshold should be group dps, not solo dps.

50k DPS? Noone is capable of doing 50k DPS. Not on the Target Golem with all Buffs or with realistic Buffs. And don’t need to talk about the actual Raid Scenario where Mechanics are lowering your DPS even more.

Walhalla.5473:

nagr.1593:

Whatever is decide, bottom line I want that this huge unbreachable gap in dps between ele and other classes be lowered. No one should be capable of 50k dps, ever. I don’t care if it’s exclusive to organized grps or even if they’re downed half the time while managing it, since pugs can’t match it. Even dinosaurs agree this threshold should be group dps, not solo dps.

50k DPS? Noone is capable of doing 50k DPS. Not on the Target Golem with all Buffs or with realistic Buffs. And don’t need to talk about the actual Raid Scenario where Mechanics are lowering your DPS even more.

he meant 45k. tbh i think thats close enough and you shouldnt be so picky.

yeh I was rounding off.. and even 40k would be ridiculous tbh

There’s no bigger gap anywhere, even between ps warrior and other dps classes. the average for all dps classes combined except Ele is around 30k. That’s prty huge diff between them and the most in-demand class for raids

sophiewhite.3149:

Walhalla.5473:

nagr.1593:

Whatever is decide, bottom line I want that this huge unbreachable gap in dps between ele and other classes be lowered. No one should be capable of 50k dps, ever. I don’t care if it’s exclusive to organized grps or even if they’re downed half the time while managing it, since pugs can’t match it. Even dinosaurs agree this threshold should be group dps, not solo dps.

50k DPS? Noone is capable of doing 50k DPS. Not on the Target Golem with all Buffs or with realistic Buffs. And don’t need to talk about the actual Raid Scenario where Mechanics are lowering your DPS even more.

he meant 45k. tbh i think thats close enough and you shouldnt be so picky.

Well try to get 45k in a Raid. Not possible. If People want to argue than they should use the Numbers from Realistic Buffs and there we can talk about Gaps and Balance.

And while 38k are possible its not something you’d see normally I agree that there is a Need for DPS Build to be more in Line so they are closer to each other and that more Classes should have Build that are just for that: DPS and with it getting a possible DPS of around 30k or 32k. While other Classes should also have access to Support Builds where they can take in the Support Spots without having 3 Classes to rule them all.

The gap in DPS Builds right now isn’t small and Balance should do something about it.

Obtena.7952:

Are we on the same planet? Let me try this again … I’m talking about raid diversity, the topic of the thread and I’m saying it makes no sense for you to claim that the changes are bad based on extreme scenarios you present. It is YOU making these claims, not me.

And you are making opposite claims presenting other extreme scenarios. It’s not me rejecting my words, so you don’t have to counter the same points over and over again. So let’s return to your proofs of diversity that are also “extreme scenarios”. So when you say that chronos aren’t needed I’d like to know explanation, why chronoless raid isn’t an extreme scenario

Obtena.7952:

No, that’s false because there is absolutely NO Anet-made balance effect that makes a group of players decide to impose upon themselves, by choice, specific raid comps; the number of combinations of comps to ‘solve’ raids is sufficiently sized to ensure that. I know this because EVERY time a group deviates from the meta and wins, it makes that true. Anet does understand how their changes affect how players ‘solve’ raids … that’s why they make those changes.

Of course. If some company makes a crappy game, people don’t buy it and it goes bankrupt, it’s people’s fault, not developers’. That’s basically what you are saying.

Players behave in a very consistent way as to consider that a constant environmental property.

The number of combinations is irrelevant, only variance is relevant. Because, as you insist, extreme scenarios are ignored. Any low-probability scenario is considered extreme. And that’s why variance is good: low-probability compositions have lower weight, but we avoid any subjective thresholds for considering anything extreme.

AndyS.5630:

Obtena.7952:

Are we on the same planet? Let me try this again … I’m talking about raid diversity, the topic of the thread and I’m saying it makes no sense for you to claim that the changes are bad based on extreme scenarios you present. It is YOU making these claims, not me.

And you are making opposite claims presenting other extreme scenarios.

The fact that people can complete raids without optimized comps is not a claim, it’s a truth. Limiting your argument to comps that are the optimal or extremely challenging, then saying we don’t have diversity or that changes are bad because you can’t complete extreme conditions is insincere. That claim is built around the fabrication that certain classes are NEEDED for raid success. This is obviously false.

If you decide to not raid outside the optimal comp space, that’s fine, but to turn around and point the finger at Anet that this is a problem that needs to be solved because of ‘reasons’ is nonsense. We have variance, lots of it … enough to prove you don’t need optimal comps to be successful in raids. Don’t confuse challenging for ‘a problem’, then claim it needs fixing. I shouldn’t have to tell anyone what the intention of raid difficulty is.

Obtena.7952:

AndyS.5630:

Obtena.7952:

Are we on the same planet? Let me try this again … I’m talking about raid diversity, the topic of the thread and I’m saying it makes no sense for you to claim that the changes are bad based on extreme scenarios you present. It is YOU making these claims, not me.

And you are making opposite claims presenting other extreme scenarios.

The fact that people can complete raids without optimized comps is not a claim, it’s a truth. Limiting your argument to comps that are the optimal or extremely challenging, then saying we don’t have diversity or that changes are bad because you can’t complete extreme conditions is insincere. That claim is built around the fabrication that certain classes are NEEDED for raid success. This is obviously false.

If you decide to not raid outside the optimal comp space, that’s fine, but to turn around and point the finger at Anet that this is a problem that needs to be solved because of ‘reasons’ is nonsense. We have variance, lots of it … enough to prove you don’t need optimal comps to be successful in raids. Don’t confuse challenging for ‘a problem’, then claim it needs fixing. I shouldn’t have to tell anyone what the intention of raid difficulty is.

you can also raid with 10 eles right now. you have to balance around the best comp because otherwise you either get faceroll easy bosses or impossible bosses without the best comp. as a pugling im unable to get away with diversified comps. the dps isnt high enough for most people ive ran with as they arent that good. i cant improve them. i can only give us the best chance at succeeding. unless your ok with the devs balancing around 10 man chrono raids stop asking them to balance around any and all comps.

No, they should not balance around the best comp for lots of reasons, including for the very reason this thread is complaining about; lack of diversity. If they balance around the best comp, then how can any comp but the best one succeed at raids? That’s a ridiculous idea to suggest. Luck for us, Anet has not done that. We can all think of things that can be done, but not assume they should be done, just because you believe it’s a good idea or practice.

I did not ask anyone to balance around all comps, though I can’t see any reason why that’s such an offensive idea to someone that plays the game, especially if Anet can make a challenging raid environment at the same time; those two things are not mutually exclusive. The recent changes move in that direction.

Obtena.7952:

No, they should not balance around the best comp for lots of reasons, including for the very reason this thread is complaining about; lack of diversity.

I was wondering, on which comp do they balance the game? There should be some “acceptable” damage comp for them to balance their content around.

To all of you saying the Raids are playable with any composition:
Yes you can probably run Raids with 10 bear bow rangers in exotics or rares, if the players are really awesome. The problem is, some builds offer way too much damage boost for the entire group, see the amazing damage a Staff Elementalist can do on a large target without a Berserker, a Druid and a Chronomancer in their group, it’s not sky high. Those 3 builds allow everyone (including themselves) to deal nearly double the damage of what they could do on their own without those buffs.

The big question coming from that: Should the Raid boss hit points be balanced around having nearly double damage output?

As a side note:
Next time someone does a dps comparison list (like the qT list) I’d love to see a column that has all the damage each of those builds can do only with SELF BUFFS. That’s how developers should always balance a profession, not based on how much damage they deal full buffed by others.

Obtena.7952:

Secondly, because the compositions were biased too much against unfavoured classes

Even more biased after the last patch.

Obtena.7952:

It’s wrong that these changes lead to a more inclusive and challenging raiding environment? No, I don’t think that’s wrong.[/quote]More inclusive? What game are we discussing?

Obtena.7952:

Unless you have some reasonable argument that shows the changes don’t bring a more inclusive and challenging raid environment, then I don’t see much else to discuss here. That’s the topic of the thread. Making statements that may or may not be correct about the motivation for those changes is just a diversion.

That’s what we are telling you for several weeks already. But you respond with “players impose restrictions upon themselves”. If they would impose restrictions regardless of balance, no changes could make a more inclusive raid environment. And restrictions are even more severe after the last balance patch.

Obtena.7952:

the fundamental concept that the raids aren’t designed and balanced around those optimal builds/compositions in the first place

Do you have any proof of this? That seems to be just your assumption. And you try to build everything on that base. Ability to beat the bosses with weird comps doesn’t prove design and balance goals. Just like low-mans.

AndyS.5630:

Obtena.7952:

the fundamental concept that the raids aren’t designed and balanced around those optimal builds/compositions in the first place

Do you have any proof of this? That seems to be just your assumption. And you try to build everything on that base. Ability to beat the bosses with weird comps doesn’t prove design and balance goals. Just like low-mans.

Whether you acknowledge it or not, that is the proof because if raids were balanced around optimal comps/builds, they couldn’t be done with non-optimal comps/builds. You wouldn’t see minutes left before rage timer. You wouldn’t see lowmanning. This is not a hard concept to understand. You’re not being objective or thinking clearly here. I think at this point, if these simple concepts are beyond comprehension, we should just agree to disagree.

Obtena.7952:

AndyS.5630:

Obtena.7952:

the fundamental concept that the raids aren’t designed and balanced around those optimal builds/compositions in the first place

Do you have any proof of this? That seems to be just your assumption. And you try to build everything on that base. Ability to beat the bosses with weird comps doesn’t prove design and balance goals. Just like low-mans.

Whether you acknowledge it or not, that is the proof because if raids were balanced around optimal comps/builds, they couldn’t be done with non-optimal comps/builds. You wouldn’t see minutes left before rage timer. You wouldn’t see lowmanning. This is not a hard concept to understand. You’re not being objective or thinking clearly here. I think at this point, if these simple concepts are beyond comprehension, we should just agree to disagree.

thats obviously not true. in any game content can be done with any comp thats balanced around the best comp. you just have to be really awesome. like the people 3 manning VG because VG can be 3 manned is that proof the devs balanced it around 3 people? that seems to be your argument here.

I don’t get how that’s obviously not true … If VG was balanced around some optimal comp, how could it be completed with 3 people … player skill is important but the fact is that raids need some minimum DPS to succeed before hitting rage. If Anet is balancing around some minimum amount of damage to ensure challenging raids and the most skilled players are hitting the damage caps for their classes, then obviously raids can’t be balanced around optimal comps if they can be 3 manned.

The only obvious thing here is that if Anet did use the optimal comps to balance raids to make them challenging, they really suck at it if they set the damage threshold so low that 3 people can complete it.

Forget all that … let’s assume you are right and VG is should be balanced around optimal comps … explain to me how a non-optimal comp could complete that raid? Player skill does not make up for damage caps on classes … so where does a non-optimal comp WITH highly skilled players make up its damage before rage hits? As far as I can tell, you just killed raid diversity.

maddoctor.2738:

Obtena.7952:

No, they should not balance around the best comp for lots of reasons, including for the very reason this thread is complaining about; lack of diversity.

I was wondering, on which comp do they balance the game?

That’s easy. Take the boss HP, divide by seconds in enrage timer, divide by 10. That should give you an idea of what sort of comp the devs consider baseline.

Obtena.7952:

I don’t get how that’s obviously not true … If VG was balanced around some optimal comp, how could it be completed with 3 people … player skill is important but the fact is that raids need some minimum DPS to succeed before hitting rage. If Anet is balancing around some minimum amount of damage to ensure challenging raids and the most skilled players are hitting the damage caps for their classes, then obviously raids can’t be balanced around optimal comps if they can be 3 manned.

The only obvious thing here is that if Anet did use the optimal comps to balance raids to make them challenging, they really suck at it if they set the damage threshold so low that 3 people can complete it.

Forget all that … let’s assume you are right and VG is should be balanced around optimal comps … explain to me how a non-optimal comp could complete that raid? Player skill does not make up for damage caps on classes … so where does a non-optimal comp WITH highly skilled players make up its damage before rage hits? As far as I can tell, you just killed raid diversity.

for the most part non optimal comps CANT. you must not pug often. or create your own groups from the bottom of the player pool. the casuals. the new players who have less than 10 LI. i have several times. they barely succeed with optimal comps most of the time. this proves to me that you need to be exceptional to do it.yes i understand my experience may not represent the majority. but the only people i see using non optimal comps successfully are players who have lots of experience or are just really good as a whole. not normal.

I’m not asking you what kind of players can succeed with non-optimal comps. I specifically asked you how non-optimal WITH highly skilled players would make up their damage before rage hits in your ‘optimal comp balanced’ world, not PUGs or scrubs.

You see the point is that you aren’t really making a logical connection here … Somehow you are saying that I am wrong, OBVIOUSLY wrong … when I say that raids are not balanced around optimal comps … yet we have a contradiction that highly skilled players not playing optimal comps can complete raids. I mean, not just by a little bit either … 3 manning VG isn’t what any reasonable person would call an optimal comp, and I think it’s safe to assume that group weren’t a bunch of PUG’s or scrubs either.

So either you have reinvented what an optimal comp is or I’m correct. These raids are in no way balanced around the optimal comp if highly skilled players can 3 man VG. Now, if THAT isn’t obvious to you, then I can only assume you’re being obtuse here. I don’t need to pug to tell me that raid balance isn’t based on optimal comps if this kind of thing is happening. It’s just deductive reasoning.

Pugs not succeeding with optimal comps should in no way lead you to the conclusion that raids are balanced around them, because skilled players in non-optimal comps can complete those same raids. The only conclusion there is that players that suck are not likely to succeed at raids … and that optimal comps does not guarantee a win. But those things should go without saying. Well, at least for some people.

Obtena.7952:

The fact that people can complete raids without optimized comps is not a claim, it’s a truth.

This truth has nothing to do with raid diversity.

Obtena.7952:

Limiting your argument to comps that are the optimal or extremely challenging, then saying we don’t have diversity or that changes are bad because you can’t complete extreme conditions is insincere. That claim is built around the fabrication that certain classes are NEEDED for raid success. This is obviously false.

I do not limit my arguments to any compositions. That’s why I use statistical properties. You try to measure diversity in binary possible/impossible terms. We measure it in a more practical manner involving probability, desirability, comfort etc.

Obtena.7952:

If you decide to not raid outside the optimal comp space, that’s fine, but to turn around and point the finger at Anet that this is a problem that needs to be solved because of ‘reasons’ is nonsense. We have variance, lots of it … enough to prove you don’t need optimal comps to be successful in raids. Don’t confuse challenging for ‘a problem’, then claim it needs fixing. I shouldn’t have to tell anyone what the intention of raid difficulty is.

There is no “lots of it”. Variance of number of chronos, warriors, druids per raid is close to 0. Meaning that those numbers are very close to constant. DPS classes show some diversity, but they generally occupy only 4 spots.

“Challenging” is a problem if it’s too challenging every week. Raids are supposed to be beatable with some reasonable amount of training: no months of wiping to beat the boss for the first time; no hours of wiping when everyone is experienced.

maddoctor.2738:

As a side note:
Next time someone does a dps comparison list (like the qT list) I’d love to see a column that has all the damage each of those builds can do only with SELF BUFFS. That’s how developers should always balance a profession, not based on how much damage they deal full buffed by others.

My tests of staff ele against a large hitbox produced full buffs / self buffs ratio of 3.5. Doing simple math it’s almost 3 for realistic buffs only. For some other classes the ratios are lower, for some they are possibly higher.

AndyS.5630:

My tests of staff ele against a large hitbox produced full buffs / self buffs ratio of 3.5. Doing simple math it’s almost 3 for realistic buffs only. For some other classes the ratios are lower, for some they are possibly higher.

I suspected as much. So in other words, in a group that consists of a mirror comp, Warrior, Ranger, Mesmer, +2 Eles, the 4 total Eles will deal more damage than a group of 10 Eles. Just the FOUR Eles will deal more damage than TEN Eles.

And people still call the Elementalist the elephant in the room. LOL

@ AndyS: some (mythic) WoW raids and some others (notably Wildstar, I suppose FFXIV and SWTOR are fine though) actually fall in that definition of “challenging” being wipes even after training. The only countermeasure they have for it to not be a problem is introducing both tiered gear and tiered difficulties for people to fall back to if it gets tiresome.

Here, however, we have a game that plays like Skyrim normal difficulty and suddenly becomes Dark Souls when you go into a raid; it might not be so hard (I don’t think it’s too hard really), but it’s certainly not flexible, and this is by design. Naturally there should also not be any variance in classes just like you said, because there are definite skills that work better than others even if we discount DPS and concerning only specific mechanics (e.g any reflect works on Matthias but feedback is hands down the best one in any scenario, simply because it spawns around him and not in front of, not to mention distortion is the fastest invulnerability cast on the lowest cooldown of them all = a single class is objectively the best tank) . I don’t believe the WoW solution of giving everything to everyone is the best, but I don’t have any other suggestions for this not to happen.

Here even experienced pugs with LI requirements of up to 50 struggle with every single encounter at times, it is glaringly inconsistent, and I don’t think there are that many people lying to me about their LI numbers and kill proofs. I’ve been on teams with 30+LI failing to green circle VG right after split and 50+LI overeating mushrooms and killing everyone with volatile poison during Sloth. People are either not living up to their own training or Anet has done such a good job with raids that it is indeed impossible to pug them consistently. I tend to think it’s the former; regardless of what all the raiding guilds think, our raid population is very low, lfg does not have training runs up all the time at all, and existing pugs take too long to fill even without requirements. This all leads to a very sparse environment, and also sparse results: you’re either getting a newbie or a pro in your team, and the chance of any case repeating for the other 8 people is very slim. While I am part of two raiding guilds myself, sometimes I want to raid in hours they didn’t schedule to, and also sometimes I wish I could just join in something instead of leading pugs, while even starting my own takes 1+ hour just to meet people who won’t give up after a wipe.

Obtena.7952:

No, they should not balance around the best comp for lots of reasons, including for the very reason this thread is complaining about; lack of diversity. If they balance around the best comp, then how can any comp but the best one succeed at raids? That’s a ridiculous idea to suggest. Luck for us, Anet has not done that. We can all think of things that can be done, but not assume they should be done, just because you believe it’s a good idea or practice.

Obtena.7952:

Whether you acknowledge it or not, that is the proof because if raids were balanced around optimal comps/builds, they couldn’t be done with non-optimal comps/builds. You wouldn’t see minutes left before rage timer. You wouldn’t see lowmanning. This is not a hard concept to understand. You’re not being objective or thinking clearly here. I think at this point, if these simple concepts are beyond comprehension, we should just agree to disagree.

No, that is wrong understanding. “Balancing around something” doesn’t mean “Beatable only by something”. That means that they balance some key values while other values remain unbalanced. Let’s say their raid test team beats some boss in 8 minutes after 8 hours of training. That is what that encounter is balanced around. Then they can put 10 minutes enrage. Players with worse compositions can beat it due to extra 2-minute margin. Players with better compositions or more training can beat well under 8 minutes. That’s what we see with all the bosses.

Do they balance around anything else? Unlikely! It just happens to work due to margins.

AndyS.5630:

Obtena.7952:

The fact that people can complete raids without optimized comps is not a claim, it’s a truth.

This truth has nothing to do with raid diversity.

If a raid leader can choose whatever classes they want and successfully complete raids, that demonstrates diversity. I think any reasonable person should be able to understand that; what else would diversity mean in the context of a raid party composition?

Right now, that does happen, so that’s why I think there is diversity. Otherwise, it would be impossible to do things like low manning. I’m not sure how this fact doesn’t demonstrate diversity to you or in your opinion, has nothing to do with diversity. I don’t think I’ve been unreasonable here and if you think being able to choice classes you want for a raid composition and be successful in raids doesn’t demonstrate raid diversity … then I’m certain that everyone is eager to hear what exactly you mean by raid diversity before continuing any more useful discussion with you.

maddoctor.2738:

I suspected as much. So in other words, in a group that consists of a mirror comp, Warrior, Ranger, Mesmer, +2 Eles, the 4 total Eles will deal more damage than a group of 10 Eles. Just the FOUR Eles will deal more damage than TEN Eles.

It isn’t as simple as that: Eles will give each other some Might (Overload Fire) and 10 of them will likely cap Vulnerability (Weak Spot). So 10 Eles will have more buffs than 1 Ele, but will still miss some unique ones like banners, druid and chrono stuff.

With that being said, Eles have a lot of useful features besides their highest DPS on large hitbox.

Take a normal Staff ele:
- “Wash the Pain Away!” is not only a great self-healing skill, but it is also a group healing skill.
- 1200 range, as much as it is not mentioned, but being able to attack from further than 130 units can help in many fights. In some even all 1200 units are required for maximum benefit.
- Not only high range, but also all attacks are cleaving multiple foes. And that cleaving radius is 180 so it’s larger area cleave, than most melee weapons have.
- Attunements provide a great deal of versatility. Again, not useful everywhere, but you can cycle through several attunements for a lot of CC. You can go Water for some group healing (not all that good, but still helps, especially with several Eles).
- They already bring some group Might and some Vulnerability. Can easily spec into some Fury as well.

Now, primary raid healers are usually those that get some healing-oriented elite specs. Versatility of Ele attunements opens up Auromancer as a very good raid healer (even though generally underused).

Now if we talk about general balance, there is no balance between skills affecting self-only and self+friends. Compare already mentioned “Wash the Pain Away!” and <Insert any self-heal here>. Selfishness can’t be kept as class concept, because it doesn’t work well in group content (read: introduction of raids requires such concept to be dropped from each class that has it).

AndyS.5630:

maddoctor.2738:

I suspected as much. So in other words, in a group that consists of a mirror comp, Warrior, Ranger, Mesmer, +2 Eles, the 4 total Eles will deal more damage than a group of 10 Eles. Just the FOUR Eles will deal more damage than TEN Eles.

It isn’t as simple as that: Eles will give each other some Might (Overload Fire) and 10 of them will likely cap Vulnerability (Weak Spot). So 10 Eles will have more buffs than 1 Ele, but will still miss some unique ones like banners, druid and chrono stuff.

With that being said, Eles have a lot of useful features besides their highest DPS on large hitbox.

Take a normal Staff ele:
- “Wash the Pain Away!” is not only a great self-healing skill, but it is also a group healing skill.
- 1200 range, as much as it is not mentioned, but being able to attack from further than 130 units can help in many fights. In some even all 1200 units are required for maximum benefit.
- Not only high range, but also all attacks are cleaving multiple foes. And that cleaving radius is 180 so it’s larger area cleave, than most melee weapons have.
- Attunements provide a great deal of versatility. Again, not useful everywhere, but you can cycle through several attunements for a lot of CC. You can go Water for some group healing (not all that good, but still helps, especially with several Eles).
- They already bring some group Might and some Vulnerability. Can easily spec into some Fury as well.

Now, primary raid healers are usually those that get some healing-oriented elite specs. Versatility of Ele attunements opens up Auromancer as a very good raid healer (even though generally underused).

Now if we talk about general balance, there is no balance between skills affecting self-only and self+friends. Compare already mentioned “Wash the Pain Away!” and <Insert any self-heal here>. Selfishness can’t be kept as class concept, because it doesn’t work well in group content (read: introduction of raids requires such concept to be dropped from each class that has it).

I’m just going to have to say here that “Wash the pain away!” Is a pretty bad self-heal skill after the nerf. Sure it is nice for allies in group content, especially if you actually invested in healing power. However, if you compare it to something like glyph of elemental harmony, you will see that the selfish option is much better at being selfish.

In my opinion, selfish professions like necro desperately need good supportive options for group content in their new elite specs. Professions that already have many selfless skills could probably use some more selfish options for solo content and for some variety. After all, they already have a place in groups.

Just give Engis some love, that’s all!!

Obtena.7952:

If a raid leader can choose whatever classes they want and successfully complete raids, that demonstrates diversity.

Only if that would hold true for every raid leader and every boss. So, if changing class composition had no bearing on whether you succeeded in the attempt or not. Which currently is not the case.

Well, Anet doesn’t control raid leaders so that’s an unfair statement to make against them. Even if there was complete freedom, you’re not going to compel a raid leader to build a team however he sees fit. Nothing can be done about that …

… except provide raiding environments inclusive enough to give players choice so they don’t raid with ignorant raid leaders that exclude them. Do you see where I’m going with that? Dungeons deja vu … once people realized they could complete dungeons without the meta, they had little use for meta-only dungeon runs … same here.

I haven’t heard of an example where a boss was only completed with specific comps. Obviously that’s not the case with VG if it’s being low manned. If there are a few raids that do have some limitations, then it’s not likely to be addressed with class changes. Therefore, raid diversity was not killed by the class changes as the original poster claims; it’s killed by the specific raids design.

NikeEU.7690:

maddoctor.2738:

Obtena.7952:

No, they should not balance around the best comp for lots of reasons, including for the very reason this thread is complaining about; lack of diversity.

I was wondering, on which comp do they balance the game?

That’s easy. Take the boss HP, divide by seconds in enrage timer, divide by 10. That should give you an idea of what sort of comp the devs consider baseline.

Technically, sure, but that DPS value doesn’t really make sense considering boss mechanics that completely stop DPS:

VG – Split phases
Gorseval – Add phases and World Eater means you either need to have significantly above enrage DPS or need to factor in DPS stops on glide phases
Sabetha – Secondary bosses and loss of a DPS person to take out cannons.
Sloth – Break phases and loss of DPS character for slub
Bandit Trio – Time between bosses appearing
Matthias – Sacrifices
Escort – Escorting, lol
KC – This fight is really just a set of burst phases made available if you get the mechanics right.
Xera – kittening mini games, lol

In other words, there’s no boss fight where this math really plays out.

However, this does show that mechanics make a major impact on success, which is why the whole meta vs non-meta dichotomy is kittening stupid.

A group that nails mechanics perfectly will easily down a boss with terrible builds or great builds with terrible DPS rotations.

A group that plays perfect builds with perfect rotations will still wipe if they don’t pull off mechanics.

Dahkeus.8243:

A group that nails mechanics perfectly will easily down a boss with terrible builds or great builds with terrible DPS rotations.

A group that plays perfect builds with perfect rotations will still wipe if they don’t pull off mechanics.

True, but having better builds will allow you more leeway on other aspects, like rotations or mechanics.
So, having perfect builds will allow you to be less skilled. Running suboptimal classes and builds will up the skill requirements.

There will be a quite big skill range at which the difference between running optimal and suboptimal builds will also be the difference betwen success and wipe.

Dahkeus.8243:

NikeEU.7690:

maddoctor.2738:

Obtena.7952:

No, they should not balance around the best comp for lots of reasons, including for the very reason this thread is complaining about; lack of diversity.

I was wondering, on which comp do they balance the game?

That’s easy. Take the boss HP, divide by seconds in enrage timer, divide by 10. That should give you an idea of what sort of comp the devs consider baseline.

Technically, sure, but that DPS value doesn’t really make sense considering boss mechanics that completely stop DPS:

VG – Split phases
Gorseval – Add phases and World Eater means you either need to have significantly above enrage DPS or need to factor in DPS stops on glide phases
Sabetha – Secondary bosses and loss of a DPS person to take out cannons.
Sloth – Break phases and loss of DPS character for slub
Bandit Trio – Time between bosses appearing
Matthias – Sacrifices
Escort – Escorting, lol
KC – This fight is really just a set of burst phases made available if you get the mechanics right.
Xera – kittening mini games, lol

In other words, there’s no boss fight where this math really plays out.

However, this does show that mechanics make a major impact on success, which is why the whole meta vs non-meta dichotomy is kittening stupid.

A group that nails mechanics perfectly will easily down a boss with terrible builds or great builds with terrible DPS rotations.

A group that plays perfect builds with perfect rotations will still wipe if they don’t pull off mechanics.

The point is that number is really really low. So even with invulns phases the number is still really low.

Ganathar.4956:

I’m just going to have to say here that “Wash the pain away!” Is a pretty bad self-heal skill after the nerf. Sure it is nice for allies in group content, especially if you actually invested in healing power. However, if you compare it to something like glyph of elemental harmony, you will see that the selfish option is much better at being selfish.

What about the remaining 3 self-heals?

Ganathar.4956:

In my opinion, selfish professions like necro desperately need good supportive options for group content in their new elite specs. Professions that already have many selfless skills could probably use some more selfish options for solo content and for some variety. After all, they already have a place in groups.

It’s not needed in the new elite specs. It’s needed in the baseline skills or in the current elite spec. Otherwise it will always be one step behind.

nagr.1593:

Anchoku.8142:

.

…
It’s just humiliating for support classes like this when u hear these stories (not over-the-top either !)of Eles achieving upwards of 40k dps with realistic buffs. In raid settings, u can assume healer and maybe some protective boons as well, this actually boosts survivability for Eles more than they would be solo. So what are the tradeoffs for this? Higher survivability thanks to 10man support + heals, maximized dps breaking through the roof. No drawbacks at all here
…
Whatever is decide, bottom line I want that this huge unbreachable gap in dps between ele and other classes be lowered. No one should be capable of 50k dps, ever. I don’t care if it’s exclusive to organized grps or even if they’re downed half the time while managing it, since pugs can’t match it. Even dinosaurs agree this threshold should be group dps, not solo dps.
…

Not sure how serious you were, but you actually feel humiliated to be outdone by the main dps role? While you are on a warrior proving the most powerful offensive buffs in the game? Personal numbers aren’t important. Beating the bosses in a ridiculous time because your team’s performance is.
The main drawback of an elementalist is that it needs a huge setup through it’s party to come even close to that performance.
You play as a team, you have your role. And a warrior is already much more needed than a tempest. The same can be said about the mesmer or the druid.

>Thieves? Just get an elementalist.
Stopped reading there. Nice memes. 6/10.