Guild Wars 2

circuitnerd.5863:

Seeing as probably the majority of people are not going to be able to complete raids or even get beyond the Vale Guardian due to difficulty I’d like to make the suggestion of having 2 different modes for raids.

As it is right now it could be “Hard mode.” And for “Normal mode” the boss has somewhat less health, his attacks do a little less damage, and a timer more like 12 minutes.

Changing the rewards for Normal to be less giving than Hard would be key. For instance the recipes would be exotic instead of ascended and so on.

I’m making this suggestion because I personally probably won’t get to see the enemies you guys have designed beyond the VG and would love to fight them. I’m a good player, but not the best.

This lets both the “casuals” and “hardcore” players experience it more attuned to their level of play.

So what’s to prevent “hardcore” players from farming the Normal mode? Well nothing technically. But they won’t get the better rewards AND those who truly want the challenge still have it.

If you could, please take my suggestion into account Arenanet. I think it would satisfy everyone.

Don’t worry about the naysayers… eventually, Anet will come to the exact same conclusion Blizzard did and create a LFR-type experience. It’ll likely be awhile, but it will happen just for the simple fact that they spent SOOO much time/effort in creating this content that they will eventually want a higher percentage of players actually experiencing it. It took Blizzard years to figure this out, but they eventually did, and the LFR in WoW is a HUGE draw for a majority of players.

Before coming back to GW2 for HoT, I was playing FFXIV. In that game I considered my self both a casual and a raider. (you could do each wing of alexander normal in ~20-30 mins). I never did Savage cuz that was hard as balls and I didn’t have the time.(I was gearing up for it in anticipation though).

I think GW2 can fulfil that same idea.

…Just as long as rewards are appropriate and both modes are available simultaneously.

Kormeg.2469:

Before coming back to GW2 for HoT, I was playing FFXIV. In that game I considered my self both a casual and a raider. (you could do each wing of alexander normal in ~20-30 mins). I never did Savage cuz that was hard as balls and I didn’t have the time.(I was gearing up for it in anticipation though).

I think GW2 can fulfil that same idea.

…Just as long as rewards are appropriate and both modes are available simultaneously.

Agreed. I don’t see why there needs to be such a big division in satisfying both hardcore players and casuals. Let there be both for everyone. That means all content. Just like in GW1.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Raids should only have one mode, the hardest possible mode available. If you want easier content, dungeons and fractals are still available to play. Raids are not designed to be inclusive, they are designed to push players to get better. You say you’re a casual and a good player, so if you get with a good group you should be able to beat it. You may fail many times, but when you beat it that will be an incredibly satisfying moment—Those moments are what raids are all about; the catharsis from defeating a seemingly insurmountable foe is incredible. You, too, can enjoy these bosses if you’re willing to put forth the effort and join a group to overcome it.

While I understand this concept and I know where do you come from, I kind of disagree with it. People are different. There is no one recipe. 10 years ago I was a hardcore raid player. I was a raid leader in 40-man WoW Vanilla content. When I look at it now, I was working around the clock to keep all this going. And I enjoyed it. But you know, times change. Right now I have a normal job (with decent income, thank God) and there are days when I get back home and I am already in a kittenty mood. Something went wrong, boss was not happy, deadline pressure etc. etc. At such times I want to fire up my favorite MMO and just let the steam off. I DONT want to go again through all the drama with controling a raid group, making sure proper people show up on time and remain motivated, sort out tactics, deal with loot drama and all else. As I said, there was a time when I did and I enjoyed that. But not anymore. This is also why I stopped playing WoW, I stopped playing SWTOR. I picked GW2 for a long-term commitment because its list of features was most suited for my taste. One of those features was “we don’t have raids”. At least I looked at it as a feature. Right now when Arena decided to backtrack on that I kind of accepted that (though I am unhappy about it on personal level). Hell, I picked my old spirit again and decided to help my guild as much as I can with making those raid attempts work. But I still hope it will remain as just a small side-feature. If Arena will switch their focus to raiding (something which remains bread and butter for WoW and many other games since years) it would mean an end for me. And I would be sad about it.

I’m surprised there’s backlash against a casual version, a nerf is the only other option apart from difficulty modes and no one wants to see that.

circuitnerd.5863:

Seeing as probably the majority of people are not going to be able to complete raids or even get beyond the Vale Guardian due to difficulty*snip*.

I’ll just ask the question. Have you raided in any mmo?

I raided lightly in LOTRO and heavily in SWOTOR. The people who completed both “normal”, “hard”, and nightmare modes were only the people who put forth the effort(or were carried by a experienced group). Casual heavy pugs fail raids endlessly because they assume normal means anyone can beat it. Most wont bother to look up a guide and try to get some understanding of how things work. They don’t have any type of parser to know if they can actually Dps or heal well enough to even bother attempting. Voice chat? you got a 50/50 shot of them downloading it if they don’t have it.

We are only on day what 2? of this new raid. Its gonna take a while for people to get it down.

Also what level is casual in this game exactly because I keep seeing event breakbars not being destroyed and people being KO’d by very OBVIOUS telegraphed attacks.

Why bother making an easy mode when it will never be easy enough. Its pretty obvious dev time is precious and there’s a list a mile long of things that should be done before this should even be a thought.

For those who think the “easy” mode will be more farmable, even when the rewards are less, that really depends on how Anet would lower the difficulty. For example, the enrage timer would take a few minutes longer. This would open up build diversity and more casual play, but by no means will it be more farmable. It will take even more time to clear the dungeon.

Lightning Xv.8705:

circuitnerd.5863:

Seeing as probably the majority of people are not going to be able to complete raids or even get beyond the Vale Guardian due to difficulty*snip*.

I’ll just ask the question. Have you raided in any mmo?

I raided lightly in LOTRO and heavily in SWOTOR. The people who completed both “normal”, “hard”, and nightmare modes were only the people who put forth the effort(or were carried by a experienced group). Casual heavy pugs fail raids endlessly because they assume normal means anyone can beat it. Most wont bother to look up a guide and try to get some understanding of how things work. They don’t have any type of parser to know if they can actually Dps or heal well enough to even bother attempting. Voice chat? you got a 50/50 shot of them downloading it if they don’t have it.

We are only on day what 2? of this new raid. Its gonna take a while for people to get it down.

Also what level is casual in this game exactly because I keep seeing event breakbars not being destroyed and people being KO’d by very OBVIOUS telegraphed attacks.

Why bother making an easy mode when it will never be easy enough. Its pretty obvious dev time is precious and there’s a list a mile long of things that should be done before this should even be a thought.

This is the only game I have done raids in. To me casual means difficult but not spending 6+ hours on just 1 enemy despite knowing the mechanics. There is always some level of gameplay that much be achieved to complete something. When it excludes over 90% of the population though, to me that is content that should have an even level playing field for everyone. The other 10% can still can do the hard way and get their better rewards.

Yes it is day 2. So things may change. However I do not see them going to be changing very much in peoples ability to complete it in the new few months. And less and less people will be doing raids till you see very few people attempting it. To me, from a company standpoint is going to hurt it.

Also, the breakbars scale ridiculously depending on how many players are there. If there is a handful of people it’s easy. But if there is 40+ it’s near impossible even if everyone uses their CC’s. The curve is too steep.

Here it is in Laymen terms for people who still don’t get it. Raids=Difficult. It is what it is. You people want to essentially make the raid no longer a raid. It is like you want to take a square and make it round. It just isn’t round its a square. That is its purpose in life. The raids were not made for you get over it.

Warlord.9074:

Here it is in Laymen terms for people who still don’t get it. Raids=Difficult. It is what it is. You people want to essentially make the raid no longer a raid. It is like you want to take a square and make it round. It just isn’t round its a square. That is its purpose in life. The raids were not made for you get over it.

Now look at your post from a commercial point of view. I don’t necessarily agree raids should be ultra hard, and by no means do I agree with them having to be easy. But if the raids are only for a few elite players, the development priority of raids will plummet.

roelvanesch.2817:

Warlord.9074:

Here it is in Laymen terms for people who still don’t get it. Raids=Difficult. It is what it is. You people want to essentially make the raid no longer a raid. It is like you want to take a square and make it round. It just isn’t round its a square. That is its purpose in life. The raids were not made for you get over it.

Now look at your post from a commercial point of view. I don’t necessarily agree raids should be ultra hard, and by no means do I agree with them having to be easy. But if the raids are only for a few elite players, the development priority of raids will plummet.

With the amount of people that do raids, that would put it well below WvW. It’s not a good place to be.

roelvanesch.2817:

Now look at your post from a commercial point of view. I don’t necessarily agree raids should be ultra hard, and by no means do I agree with them having to be easy. But if the raids are only for a few elite players, the development priority of raids will plummet.

Yep. Spending significant development resources on content that’s played by only a few percent of the game’s population is not a smart business move.

In the game Rift, the devs did something very smart and creative. They realized that a vast portion of their player base (i.e. “paying customers”) were not raiding, so they created “Chronicles,” which were 2-player versions of raids. This way, even the most casual of players could play through the content that they were previously shut out from.

If the GW2 devs made “Normal/Hard/Nightmare” difficulty levels available for raid content, they’d be including a vastly larger portion of the population. And no one loses.

Spiral Architect.6540:

roelvanesch.2817:

Now look at your post from a commercial point of view. I don’t necessarily agree raids should be ultra hard, and by no means do I agree with them having to be easy. But if the raids are only for a few elite players, the development priority of raids will plummet.

Yep. Spending significant development resources on content that’s played by only a few percent of the game’s population is not a smart business move.

In the game Rift, the devs did something very smart and creative. They realized that a vast portion of their player base (i.e. “paying customers”) were not raiding, so they created “Chronicles,” which were 2-player versions of raids. This way, even the most casual of players could play through the content that they were previously shut out from.

If the GW2 devs made “Normal/Hard/Nightmare” difficulty levels available for raid content, they’d be including a vastly larger portion of the population. And no one loses.

Thats why its the only thing in the game like it. So I would disagree with you that the wasted money and time in it when it amounts to less than a fraction of a % of the total game content which is all geared towards casuals. here it is to make it simple for people to understand. 99.9% of the game for casuals raid.1%.

Samhayn.2385:

Rising Dusk.2408:

Raids should only have one mode, the hardest possible mode available. If you want easier content, dungeons and fractals are still available to play. Raids are not designed to be inclusive, they are designed to push players to get better. You say you’re a casual and a good player, so if you get with a good group you should be able to beat it. You may fail many times, but when you beat it that will be an incredibly satisfying moment—Those moments are what raids are all about; the catharsis from defeating a seemingly insurmountable foe is incredible. You, too, can enjoy these bosses if you’re willing to put forth the effort and join a group to overcome it.

If they stick with this then they need to sell the raids in the gem store and use the money from that to develop the next raid. That way 99% of players aren’t paying for stuff they aren’t going to be able to do.

I would buy them so I could do them with my guild. I even do raids and other hard contentment I just dislike the attitude that raiding seems to bring out in people.

Scaling content and rewards is not a bad idea and helps people see the content that they paid for.

This is an interesting idea, they do it with sPVP servers and Living Story, why not raids?
They do need to monetize raids but I doubt it will be something so direct. I’d bet on an AR mechanic that draws gold through the existing economy.

Spiral Architect.6540:

Yep. Spending significant development resources on content that’s played by only a few percent of the game’s population is not a smart business move.

If the GW2 devs made “Normal/Hard/Nightmare” difficulty levels available for raid content, they’d be including a vastly larger portion of the population. And no one loses.

Considering other games with multiple raid tiers have a tiny raid population compared to the whole its not worth it here for a raid. “No one loses” How about the dev time required to build and balance the new tiers. And they still wont be inclusive to the majority of the player base.

and before someone complains about paying customers….you got EXACTLY what they said they had in store for you.

“Your raiding team will need to bring a high level of skill, strategy, and coordination in order to succeed and clear the raid.”

“Everyone will be expected to pitch in and execute at a high level to ensure success.”

“Crystal Reid has a message for would-be raiding champions: “We started a bucket collection for your tears.”

“And if you fail to fill these roles? You’re going to have a bad time. But don’t worry, as we’re leaving you a repair anvil at the entrance. You know—to collect your tears on.”

Lightning Xv.8705:

Considering other games with multiple raid tiers have a tiny raid population compared to the whole its not worth it here for a raid.

The vast majority of WoW players disagree. That game is basically built around eventually funneling people into raids. They even have a PUG raid finder now. It is the most successful MMO out there and routinely makes #1 on MMO lists. Hardly a tiny raid population.

“No one loses” How about the dev time required to build and balance the new tiers. And they still wont be inclusive to the majority of the player base.

This is a fair point, but doesn’t have a lot of substance backing it. No one here knows the time it would take them to balance a lower difficulty mode and how that time could be better spent. I imagine balancing it wouldn’t be as difficult as you make it seem if they removed the #1 stumbling block, enrage timers and limited the awards.

If this is to be the ground work for future content, best they start now than walking down this path and realizing they made the same mistakes other top selling MMOs have made and have since undone.

and before someone complains about paying customers….you got EXACTLY what they said they had in store for you.

This is irrelevant. The OP and others didn’t want this and are asking for a different mode. They are asking for a change, which is fair. If people didn’t ask for changes you wouldn’t have got raids to being with. Arena Net encourages people to give feedback. Recall the CDIs? Raids are one such result of those.

Harper.4173:

If what you’re saying would be true then the truly hardcore would have been satisfied with running dungeons ( content everyone can complete) in “hard mode” – doing solos, duos, trios or naked runs.

And they were, as evidenced by the list of youtube videos demonstrating many of these exact feats for people to adulate over.

Harper.4173:

For a small part of the hardcore crowd this was enough – but for most it isn’t.

And the point you keep missing is no one here is asking them to be satisfied with just that.

Harper.4173:

Look at the example:

“I did AC with no gear on”
“So what – I did AC too”

Compare it to this:

“I did the Raid”
“….” – because this person didn’t do the raid.

In this fictitious universe where people are limited to two phrases in any discussion, I agree this would be very irritating. Thankfully, we aren’t limited by the confines of your imagination. The conversation could have easily gone like this:

Player A: My awesome guild just completed the first raid wing on hard mode.
Player B Wow, that’s impressive, we’ve only been able to get through story mode, but we’re still trying hard mode.
Player A: That’s good too, just keep practicing. You’re a person I respect and it pleases me that you get to enjoy this awesome new content in your own way.
Player B: Gee swell thanks, you aren’t like those other elitist kitten that just called us newbs and spit on our corpses.
Player A: Yeah the Guild Wars community has gotten a bit toxic lately. It’s almost as if people have an innate desire to separate themselves into groups and primitively insult each other for petty differences between them.

Okay, I embellished a little bit. It’s so easy to get out of hand when you’re literally inventing what people say ;-)

This more definitive – it’s clear, it’s cut and dry – there are no ifs and buts. You did it or you didn’t. And this is what they’re going for with Raids atm.

You are literally suggesting that gamers would be confused by the concept of difficulty levels. Most gamers would understand the distinction between someone playing through something on normal, hard, nightmare, and “bucket of tears” levels. These options are so pervasive in games that, well… I can’t even.

I think a system similar to WoW would be good, and wouldn’t hurt the hardcore raiding players in the slightest. Just have:
- LFG mode: Reduced difficulty with ~1/10th of the rewards on a weekly lockout.
- Normal mode: What we have now.

I think this is a very fair compromise for players who want to experience the raids, and for those who wish to keep the rewards exclusive.

roelvanesch.2817:

Warlord.9074:

Here it is in Laymen terms for people who still don’t get it. Raids=Difficult. It is what it is. You people want to essentially make the raid no longer a raid. It is like you want to take a square and make it round. It just isn’t round its a square. That is its purpose in life. The raids were not made for you get over it.

Now look at your post from a commercial point of view. I don’t necessarily agree raids should be ultra hard, and by no means do I agree with them having to be easy. But if the raids are only for a few elite players, the development priority of raids will plummet.

The problem is GW2 is already seen as a super casual game – with Raids Anet is making a push towards a more hardcore audience. They’re trying to get more hardcore players to try out their game – which has been justly considered by many up until now to be “hello kitty adventures 2” in terms of difficulty.

I don’t think we need a new mode. But there needs to be consideration on that rage timer. Instead of implementing a hard fail. Maybe have a gold, silver, and bronze tier timer like on adventures and have scaling rewards. These things are still difficult without the DPS gear check and you can still preserve difficulty by rewarding raiders for optimal performance.

I mean really. I love the raids. But my guild can easily see that this content isn’t going to be well received by the majority of their current audience. I would think Anet wants people playing the content they worked so hard on. As it stands, most people will never see anything beyond vale guardian.

SirMoogie.9263:

Harper.4173:

If what you’re saying would be true then the truly hardcore would have been satisfied with running dungeons ( content everyone can complete) in “hard mode” – doing solos, duos, trios or naked runs.

And they were, as evidenced by the list of youtube videos demonstrating many of these exact feats for people to adulate over.

Harper.4173:

For a small part of the hardcore crowd this was enough – but for most it isn’t.

And the point you keep missing is no one here is asking them to be satisfied with just that.

Harper.4173:

Look at the example:

“I did AC with no gear on”
“So what – I did AC too”

Compare it to this:

“I did the Raid”
“….” – because this person didn’t do the raid.

In this fictitious universe where people are limited to two phrases in any discussion, I agree this would be very irritating. Thankfully, we aren’t limited by the confines of your imagination. The conversation could have easily gone like this:

Player A: My awesome guild just completed the first raid wing on hard mode.
Player B Wow, that’s impressive, we’ve only been able to get through story mode, but we’re still trying hard mode.
Player A: That’s good too, just keep practicing. You’re a person I respect and it pleases me that you get to enjoy this awesome new content in your own way.
Player B: Gee swell thanks, you aren’t like those other elitist kitten that just called us newbs and spit on our corpses.
Player A: Yeah the Guild Wars community has gotten a bit toxic lately. It’s almost as if people have an innate desire to separate themselves into groups and primitively insult each other for petty differences between them.

Okay, I embellished a little bit. It’s so easy to get out of hand when you’re literally inventing what people say ;-)

This more definitive – it’s clear, it’s cut and dry – there are no ifs and buts. You did it or you didn’t. And this is what they’re going for with Raids atm.

You are literally suggesting that gamers would be confused by the concept of difficulty levels. Most gamers would understand the distinction between someone playing through something on normal, hard, nightmare, and “bucket of tears” levels. These options are so pervasive in games that, well… I can’t even.

Really?
Because most hardcore players don’t care about that – some of them do and some of them went to the challenge of doing AC p1 naked – but most didn’t. Because for most this type of “make pretend” hard mode isn’t actually what they were looking for.

I honestly believe that most hardcore players feel and think the way I described in that conversation – sure some of them that post on the forums can be nice in general – but the vast majority don’t give a thought to other players because they take enjoyment from being “better” than others.
I’m not inventing anything – I’m illustrating how people – a lot of people I know feel.

Hell – I would feel better if there was one thing I could do and nobody else could. Regardless of the fact that they were missing content. It’s an ego trip – it makes you feel proud that you can do something someone else can’t.

There’s a strange sense of accomplishment and joy I get from having beaten Liardi while others haven’t been able to.

Difficulty levels -that’s one thing – but from what I understand Raids are imagined as having ONE difficulty level where you can either complete or you can’t.

IMO, there should be a Story Mode, but it should be about experiencing the story, not about getting rewards, nor about experiencing the full mechanics of the raid. It also should not come out until the release ‘after’ the final wing for the raid is released.

Story Mode should work like story instances in the Personal Story, no drops during the instance, and a one-time reward issued via the story mode gui pop-up on the first completion of each boss. Boss fights would be balanced for a single player, and would therefore not include an easy method of learning the core fight mechanics of the Raid.

As it’s released after the raid is complete, you’d get a story journal chapter for the entire raid at once (all wings), and each episode would be for a different boss fight. There might be a handful of achievements that could provide additional rewards for a subsequent play though, but no challenge motes, and the best reward possible would be an ascended trinket for completing the achievement meta.

It would be released and branded as Living Story : Spirit Vale, rather than an Easy mode “Raid”, meaning that you couldn’t say you’ve completed the raid, because you wouldn’t have done, you’ve just experienced the Spirit Vale instances of the Living Story.

Mireles Lore.5942:

I don’t think we need a new mode. But there needs to be consideration on that rage timer. Instead of implementing a hard fail. Maybe have a gold, silver, and bronze tier timer like on adventures and have scaling rewards. These things are still difficult without the DPS gear check and you can still preserve difficulty by rewarding raiders for optimal performance.

I mean really. I love the raids. But my guild can easily see that this content isn’t going to be well received by the majority of their current audience. I would think Anet wants people playing the content they worked so hard on. As it stands, most people will never see anything beyond vale guardian.

This basically is almost like multiple modes. Sounds neat though!

I would only ever agree to an easier mode if you got no reward for it other than to experience a toned down fight and thus the story.

This game has been too easy to ignore mechanics, not bother learning tells, face tank attacks or ignore utilising the unique mechanics of the game like combos for too long. A lot of people are finally realising how bad they are by being spanked by the raids over and over and over without even putting a dent in the boss. This is a good thing.

Harper.4173:

Really?
Because most hardcore players don’t care about that – some of them do and some of them went to the challenge of doing AC p1 naked – but most didn’t. Because for most this type of “make pretend” hard mode isn’t actually what they were looking for.

And again, no one is saying they should just be satisfied with this. Should I have someone skywrite it above your house for you?

I’m not inventing anything – I’m illustrating how people – a lot of people I know feel.

You feel they are confused individuals who cannot understand a concept such as difficulty levels? You either associate with people who don’t play many games or you don’t think very highly of those you associate with.

Hell – I would feel better if there was one thing I could do and nobody else could.

And let us assume you were such a special snowflake and raid content was tuned such that your awesome skills could only complete it. Many players would acknowledge you for such a feat, but they would also have their easier mode that they’d recognize as being easier. And you being a, presumably, intelligent individual would recognize theirs was the easier mode. Conversations in this world would not go as you phrased because gamers are not the idiots you paint them to be and understand things like difficulty levels.

Regardless of the fact that they were missing content. It’s an ego trip – it makes you feel proud that you can do something someone else can’t.

And you are still. You are doing the more difficult version of the content.

Difficulty levels -that’s one thing – but from what I understand Raids are imagined as having ONE difficulty level where you can either complete or you can’t.

Yes. that is how they are imagined now, but they can change. Feedback could make that happen, just as feedback during the CDIs led to the creation of raids.

Kaz.5430:

IMO, there should be a Story Mode, but it should be about experiencing the story, not about getting rewards, nor about experiencing the full mechanics of the raid. It also should not come out until the release ‘after’ the final wing for the raid is released.

Story Mode should work like story instances in the Personal Story, no drops during the instance, and a one-time reward issued via the story mode gui pop-up on the first completion of each boss. Boss fights would be balanced for a single player, and would therefore not include an easy method of learning the core fight mechanics of the Raid..

100% this.

No rewards or achievements necessary, all I want is a toned-down supercasual version of the raid where I can solo some veterans with Rytlock and learn about why the windblast occurred, what is happening with Sabetha, Gorseval and the Vale Guardian — plus whatever the next few Forsaken Thicket raid wings provide. At the end of a wing, you get a Story Journal entry with a summary of what you and Rytlock discovered.

Surely this is not too much to ask for, is it?

It came out few days ago, and this is the first weekend and no one wants to play with newbies already. Just saying XD Raid is not a challenge content; it’s inaccessible to those who didn’t play it on the first day ’cause those who did already formed groups.

The biggest issue I have is with the story that is woven into the raid. They are very proud of it as you can see during the last Guild Chat. There are even some small hints seeded where the main story will finally go.

They put so much emphasis into the story and target at the same time only a tiny fraction of the player base. How many of the passionate raider are simultaneously lore freaks? How many lore guys are excluded by raids?

Normally you want that as many people as possible can enjoy and experience the story. Therefore a story mode is highly needed where the focus is on the stories and not on fights and rewards.

Srsly. Give the Raid some Time. We aren’t a Week in and PUGs are already killing the Vale Guardian. Give it a few Months. With enough Time the PUGs will be able to kill Gorseval and finally Sabetha.

Remember Tequatl? Who went from “impossible for Casuals and everyone with a Job QQ” to a Loot Pinata again? ( And no Teq wasn’t nerfed, People just got better ).

Introducing an Easier Mode will just result in this Mode being Facerolled by everyone after enough Time.