Guild Wars 2

Ohoni.6057:

The other night I realized that I was one Tyrian master point away from what I’d need to buy the last available skill, so I completed the spoons collection.

Oh, the bane that has been the spoon collection for me.

I simply hate them.

Hate them. I’ll never get them all. I’ll get those last 2 fractal points first, I bet, not that I need anymore thank goodness!

Ohoni.6057:

This is in the OP. If this won’t convince you, I’m not sure what will.

Output from the raids team isn’t coming at the expense of other projects in development. Raids are made independently of Living World. We do communicate regularly with that team (and we share some resources and assets in both directions) but neither team prevents the other from doing its job.

It is an inarguable fact that by tasking these developers with producing raids, it did reduce the quantity or quality of other content in the game, however they choose to phrase it.

No, it is not. That’s only your assumption. If you really think it is an inarguable fact then prove it. The burden of proof is on you.

I’m not arguing that they should dissolve the raid team, or not make future raids, but I do think it would be nice if they took the time to make the existing raid content more accessible to players that for whatever reasons are not well suited to raids in their current form.

But that totally defeats the purpose of a raid?!? People shouldn’t be able to casually walk into a raid and just beat it. If you think you should be able to, then you are utterly wrong and this part of the game isn’t for you. Deal with it!

The second issue with that question though is that I don’t like the idea of comparing raids to single player story missions. I prefer comparing them to open world maps, and players overall spend WAY more collective hours on open world maps than they do in raid wings.

Comparing raids to either of them is a complete fail. All 3 types have totally different design choices behind them and it doesnt matter how many collective hours players spend on each.

I don’t think that they should make single player story-mission style versions of the raid wings, although some certainly would prefer that. What I’d be looking for is more of a reduced difficulty casual mode for the raids, where you would still play them with ten people, but with reduced difficulty you could be much more casual about forming a party, you wouldn’t need to select for “the right classes,” or “the right gearing,” or experienced only," or anything like that, you could just put out an LFG, grab the first nine people who show up, and stand a solid chance of completing the wing in a reasonable amount of time. This would be fun and repeatable for players who do not enjoy high-challenge encounters, and for those who do enjoy high challenge encounters, the original version would remain available.

Difficulty is fine. If anything raids could use a hardmode, but not a casual mode.
Again, a casual mode totally defeats the purpose of raids. You should finally get that in your head.

Siobhan.5273:

Ohoni.6057:

The other night I realized that I was one Tyrian master point away from what I’d need to buy the last available skill, so I completed the spoons collection.

Oh, the bane that has been the spoon collection for me.

I simply hate them.

Hate them. I’ll never get them all. I’ll get those last 2 fractal points first, I bet, not that I need anymore thank goodness!

See, I’d not really been paying much attention to them, I just eventually picked up the rare drop ones by randomly doing that sort of content occasionally, and then when I was looking over the achievements list for easy pick-ups I realized that the only ones still missing were the purchased Ascended spoon, and a bunch of karma spoons, so I just started WPing around the map and picking them up.

No, it is not. That’s only your assumption. If you really think it is an inarguable fact then prove it. The burden of proof is on you.

It’s not really something that needs “proving.” It’s like you’re arguing that if a kitchen has ten people in it, and two of them are making only vegan meals and the rest on steaks, that if those two people were also working on steaks it would not result in more steaks leaving the kitchen. It may be possible that shifting the raid team off raids would not make the expected Living Story come out any faster, but they would be working on something, and whatever that something is, it would come out better and/or faster because they were a part of it. There’s just no argument to be made otherwise.

But that totally defeats the purpose of a raid?!? People shouldn’t be able to casually walk into a raid and just beat it. If you think you should be able to, then you are utterly wrong and this part of the game isn’t for you. Deal with it!

And that sort of attitude is the entire problem here.

I don’t think that they should weaken the existing raids, because some like them how they are, but they should provide a VERSION of the raid, completely optional to those who don’t want it, that would make them more accessible to the remaining players.

Difficulty is fine. If anything raids could use a hardmode, but not a casual mode.
Again, a casual mode totally defeats the purpose of raids. You should finally get that in your head.

Again, it’s not for you, it’s not about what you want. The existing raids are about what you want, and if you want a more hardcore version, I’d be fine with that too. But a more casual mode is for players who feel differently about the game than you do, and nothing you can say will invalidate their tastes.

Ohoni.6057:

No, it is not. That’s only your assumption. If you really think it is an inarguable fact then prove it. The burden of proof is on you.

It’s not really something that needs “proving.” It’s like you’re arguing that if a kitchen has ten people in it, and two of them are making only vegan meals and the rest on steaks, that if those two people were also working on steaks it would not result in more steaks leaving the kitchen. It may be possible that shifting the raid team off raids would not make the expected Living Story come out any faster, but they would be working on something, and whatever that something is, it would come out better and/or faster because they were a part of it. There’s just no argument to be made otherwise.

nice strawman mate…
says enough basically

On a side note, i am so happy you won’t ever see anything in this raid because of your attitude, serves you well

Arnath.2319:

I have provided plenty of proof of raids being terrible for this game but typical raiders refuse to listen to reason.

Where? You had no activity for 23 days and then in the last 24 hours you made 6 posts that go like this “Raids are bad because I said so.”

It is a good thing that Raids exist in this game, it adds to the variety and now that fractals are getting certain attention and dungeons have improved as well as a game feature it is one of the best times for PvE players. But there is still the issue of the bar of the Raids for people to finish it. Me and my guild are not hardcore players, but we have managed to beat the Vale Guardian, and we are close on beating Gorseval, too. It is a great experience overall and the encounters and the learning curve they offer are great, but we still want to experience that story! A good story deep in the lore of the world of Guild Wars the likes of which we haven’t seen since LS2, 1 and a half years ago, barred behind the Raid system. It is sad to me that they have come up with such a good and complex story but not all people can experience it. It even enhances the fact that Mordremoth actually died, that even then his death “awoke” the White Mantle. Why not give the players the chance to play a downscaled story mode version of this with no rewards? There are people out there that actually love immersing themselves in the lore and the story of the world ArenaNet has created, they shouldn’t be keeping it from them. As I said there should be no rewards in this downscaled version, sometimes the story is a reward of its own. I just want my GW2 character to fight against the guys that my character in GW1 defeated

It is a good thing that Raids exist in this game, it adds to the variety and now that fractals are getting certain attention and dungeons have improved as well as a game feature it is one of the best time for PvE players.

You mean instanced content players. For players that enjoy open world content the only new things added over the past six months have been the Leyline events, Bandit bounties, and Legendary moneypits, most of that over the last couple months.

Arnath.2319:

I have yet to see any proof that raids have been successful. I have provided plenty of proof of raids being terrible for this game but typical raiders refuse to listen to reason.

you provided like nothing? raids are successful in Arena Nets eyes and that is what counts, not your biased irrelevant opinion you try to sell as “facts” here.
More raids to come, more lore and story for you to lose, i’m not dissappointed

Ohoni.6057:

It is a good thing that Raids exist in this game, it adds to the variety and now that fractals are getting certain attention and dungeons have improved as well as a game feature it is one of the best time for PvE players.

You mean instanced content players. For players that enjoy open world content the only new things added over the past six months have been the Leyline events, Bandit bounties, and Legendary moneypits, most of that over the last couple months.

Still it is PvE content, people that don’t play PvP or WvW have things to do, from dungeons, to fractals to Raids to Jungle events to dailies etc. There is a slew of content if you are willing to look for it Though I have to agree that the current content drought is a problem that ArenaNet will have to solve at some point :/ It is true that people looking for new things don’t have many things in their hands

Ohoni.6057:

It’s not really something that needs “proving.”

Oh, yes it is.

It’s like…

Trying to “prove” your point by comparing large and complex project of software development (like a MMO) to cooking a steak is really ignorant and borderline insulting. Adding more people to a project does not necessarily increase productivity, it actually can (and often does) decrease it. If this doesn’t make sense to you, then you really need to educate yourself more on the subject. (Start here) If you think have the solution to it feel free to publish and become rich, it since there are many systems out there designed to tackle this very problem. (Like Agile)

tldr: making a MMO is not the same thing as cooking a steak.

Also, I’d like to quote a relevant topic:

BobbyStein.2315:

• Output from the raids team isn’t coming at the expense of other projects in development. Raids are made independently of Living World. We do communicate regularly with that team (and we share some resources and assets in both directions) but neither team prevents the other from doing its job.

guys guys! Bobby simply stated some tidbits about raid lore. No need to start an uproar about who plays raids and who doesn’t. Geez

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Arnath.2319:

I have provided plenty of proof of raids being terrible for this game but typical raiders refuse to listen to reason.

Where? You had no activity for 23 days and then in the last 24 hours you made 6 posts that go like this “Raids are bad because I said so.”

You want reasons, here are reasons.
– They have a dedicated team that only makes content for 5% of the playerbase.
– The other 95% has had nothing new outside of fixes to old content since HoT’s release.
– Putting lore content in a part of the game that most who will play it won’t care about it. So much so that they are promising to move over what is relevant to the main story as needed.

Simply put, they are wasting time, money, and story on something that most people will not experience. It’s a loss no matter how you look at it. And it does so at the price of invalidating old content. Dungeons and the raiding player base would have benefited far more from a “Raid Mode” option. Just as the casual player base would benefit from a normal 5-man mode in the raids. If both added than that’s more content for more people. In fact there is no doubt that given the low numbers of raiders that these are options already being looked into.

Dominik.5162:

More raids to come, more lore and story for you to lose, i’m not dissappointed

It’s this kind of thing that helps validate the way people feel about raids in this game.

Thanks for helping in proving the point.

Still it is PvE content, people that don’t play PvP or WvW have things to do, from dungeons, to fractals to Raids to Jungle events to dailies etc.

I’m really tired of people lumping PvE content together like it’s all the same thing. Instanced content and open world content are as far apart as PvP and WvW. Telling a fan of open world PvE that they have raids and Fractals to do is no different than telling a disgruntled WvW player that he has league PvP to be doing. “it’s all player vs player content after all.”

Oh, yes it is.

I’m not getting into a Bugs/Daffy with you.

Trying to “prove” your point by comparing large and complex project of software development (like a MMO) to cooking a steak is really ignorant and borderline insulting. Adding more people to a project does not necessarily increase productivity, it actually can (and often does) decrease it.

Only if you do it poorly. I mean if they just took the raid team and said “go help out the living story team somehow,” then that would probably work horribly, but the point is, the raid team COULD have sent the same time and effort they spent on raids in making some new PvE zone, one that includes the same setting and encounters as the raids, but tuned to be played as open world content, or as more casual dungeoning content. The fact remains that those developers COULD have spent their time working on features other than raids, and it would inevitably have resulted in something positive for the game.

Now you can argue that the team making bespoke content for raiders is overall better than that team putting the same time and effort into making content for everyone else to enjoy, fair enough, but let’s not pretend that if they weren’t working on raids then they would be providing no benefit to the game at all. They would be working on something, and given the quality we’ve seen out of the raids so far, it would almost certainly be something amazing.

Psygo.5976:

You want reasons, here are reasons.

I don’t want some made up reasons.
I want:

plenty of proof of raids being terrible for this game

Raiders are the most abusive, rude, toxic people you will ever meet. I just had someone whisper me in game spamming abuse at me because of my posts here.

I’ve had that happen too, just report them and move on.

Plenty of people like to talk kitten about raids, but not a single one can actually back their “facts” up with evidence, or reason, or logic.

Raids gate one the most popular and loved GW1 stories, a clear and deliberate attack on the fans of this game.

This is in my top 10 favorite internet drama comments ever, im keeping this one.

Fairly insulting to anet that you think they would “deliberately attack” their fans.

Lighten up, it’s just a game man. You seem tense.
Can’t we all just calm down a bit?

Ohoni.6057:

It is a good thing that Raids exist in this game, it adds to the variety and now that fractals are getting certain attention and dungeons have improved as well as a game feature it is one of the best time for PvE players.

You mean instanced content players. For players that enjoy open world content the only new things added over the past six months have been the Leyline events, Bandit bounties, and Legendary moneypits, most of that over the last couple months.

You got 4 big new open world PvE maps in the last 7 months. And you will probably get some new ones this summer.

I mean would you have been happier if they waited 2 months before release a new map? Or if all 3 raid wings were released with HoT?

Your problem isn’t the content but the way they release the content.

Also the amount of story in the 3 wings are like 3 of the 16 HoT story missions and the 3 wing maps together are like 1/3 of a single HoT map. So the 3 wings are basically only ~15% of the HoT open world maps in terms of content.

Ohoni.6057:

let’s not pretend that if they weren’t working on raids then they would be providing no benefit to the game at all.

Let’s not pretend these most of these raid designers suddenly appeared out of thin air prior to raids existing either. We’ve seen some of their content before: Tequatl, Boss Blitz and Triple Trouble to name a few. Didn’t you have similar grievances with that content?

It’s pretty obvious that the raid team want to keep designing engaging and challenging content like this. Raids were an environment where it seems like their talents can shine their brightest, instead of forcing them to fit their skills into places that just don’t feel quite right. (Like open world)

You got 4 big new open world PvE maps in the last 7 months. And you will probably get some new ones this summer.

We had to pay for those maps though, $12 per map, and they were very “raid-like” maps in the first place. And then nothing since.

Let’s not pretend these most of these raid designers suddenly appeared out of thin air prior to raids existing either. We’ve seen some of their content before: Tequatl, Boss Blitz and Triple Trouble to name a few. Didn’t you have similar grievances with that content?

Boss Blitz was ok, there were issues with the balance on the Teq revamp and Triple Trouble.

It’s pretty obvious that the raid team want to keep designing engaging and challenging content like this. Raids were an environment where it seems like their talents can shine their brightest, instead of forcing them to fit their skills into places that just don’t feel quite right. (Like open world)

And they can continue to do that, but they should also provide alternate versions for players that don’t enjoy “challenging content” but do enjoy the other aspects of the raids.

I ask the team of raids to give out the lore of the raids like Anet already did with the book for ls1 that now rests in one of my bank tabs. I don´t intend to raid for various reasons, and don´t want to miss out on anything interesting lore wise.

And as you, Mr Stein, maybe still read this:
Please don´t go down the road of instanced ls2 again. That was very boring most of the time(Bomb Sylvari), repetitive(Dragon Minion goes on the hunt, fails, another one appears), without impact(Belinda appears and dies nearly in the same week) and had so many points to loathe that I still have not managed to get all the achievement points and the jewelry hidden behind it. It also had some good points, but the bad ones far outweighted the good episodes.

Arnath.2319:

Dominik.5162:

Arnath.2319:

I have yet to see any proof that raids have been successful. I have provided plenty of proof of raids being terrible for this game but typical raiders refuse to listen to reason.

you provided like nothing? raids are successful in Arena Nets eyes and that is what counts, not your biased irrelevant opinion you try to sell as “facts” here.
More raids to come, more lore and story for you to lose, i’m not dissappointed

I have provided plenty on here but mostly reddit. Where did ArenaNet say raids are successful? Provide facts, statistics, data shows they have been a complete failure.

Wrong, you did nothing but telling us that Raids are bad without Proof. Show us the Proof. You tell us that Raids are bad for the Game, then you have to prove it.

Walhalla.5473:

Wrong, you did nothing but telling us that Raids are bad without Proof. Show us the Proof. You tell us that Raids are bad for the Game, then you have to prove it.

Raids by themselves are not bad indeed. But raids being only endgame pve content, especially without good variety of difficulties, is certainly very bad, and I hope Anet not going to move game it that direction.

Rednik.3809:

Walhalla.5473:

Wrong, you did nothing but telling us that Raids are bad without Proof. Show us the Proof. You tell us that Raids are bad for the Game, then you have to prove it.

Raids by themselves are not bad indeed. But raids being only endgame pve content, especially without good variety of difficulties, is certainly very bad, and I hope Anet not going to move game it that direction.

They’re making more fractals this year for people who want different kind of instanced experience.

Just because you say raids have only hard difficulty doesn’t prove it’s bad design. There are other options out there in GW2 if you want scaling difficulty.

This discussion of raids being objectively bad for the game is nonsense. Since neither side can prove anything one way or another it’s completely ridiculous to make generalizing comments. In the end you only have people who like and who dislike raids, nothing more. And yes, there are toxic players on both side of the debate, not just on the raiders side.

Neox.3497:

Ohoni.6057:

It is a good thing that Raids exist in this game, it adds to the variety and now that fractals are getting certain attention and dungeons have improved as well as a game feature it is one of the best time for PvE players.

You mean instanced content players. For players that enjoy open world content the only new things added over the past six months have been the Leyline events, Bandit bounties, and Legendary moneypits, most of that over the last couple months.

Also the amount of story in the 3 wings are like 3 of the 16 HoT story missions and the 3 wing maps together are like 1/3 of a single HoT map. So the 3 wings are basically only ~15% of the HoT open world maps in terms of content.

And it’s also better than the whole of the HoT story! That is the point, not that its’ quantity is big but that its’ quality is superb and not everyone can experience it.

Dimitris.3195:

Neox.3497:

Ohoni.6057:

It is a good thing that Raids exist in this game, it adds to the variety and now that fractals are getting certain attention and dungeons have improved as well as a game feature it is one of the best time for PvE players.

You mean instanced content players. For players that enjoy open world content the only new things added over the past six months have been the Leyline events, Bandit bounties, and Legendary moneypits, most of that over the last couple months.

Also the amount of story in the 3 wings are like 3 of the 16 HoT story missions and the 3 wing maps together are like 1/3 of a single HoT map. So the 3 wings are basically only ~15% of the HoT open world maps in terms of content.

And it’s also better than the whole of the HoT story! That is the point, not that its’ quantity is big but that its’ quality is superb and not everyone can experience it.

And guess what! Maybe it IS because of the difficulty that makes them so high quality. The story >telling< of the raid is not that good IMO. You go in and fight some weird creatures and… well BANDITS. And you only get most of the story by reading the letters lying around.

I think if you could kill the bosses by just pressing 1 there would be no difference between raids and the HoT personal story or the open world events.

It’s not the story or the enviroment that raiders praise it’s mostly the combat and the difficulty that make raids that good.

Dimitris.3195:

Neox.3497:

Ohoni.6057:

It is a good thing that Raids exist in this game, it adds to the variety and now that fractals are getting certain attention and dungeons have improved as well as a game feature it is one of the best time for PvE players.

You mean instanced content players. For players that enjoy open world content the only new things added over the past six months have been the Leyline events, Bandit bounties, and Legendary moneypits, most of that over the last couple months.

Also the amount of story in the 3 wings are like 3 of the 16 HoT story missions and the 3 wing maps together are like 1/3 of a single HoT map. So the 3 wings are basically only ~15% of the HoT open world maps in terms of content.

And it’s also better than the whole of the HoT story! That is the point, not that its’ quantity is big but that its’ quality is superb and not everyone can experience it.

Ask someone to open you a finished instance. Done. You are experiencing raid story like all raiders. Or even better watch a youtube video from gw2 lore nerds and get a detailed recap of the story complete with explanations, theories and other stuff. Literally the only thing you will miss is a bit of gold and some loot from the raid bosses.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Dimitris.3195:

Neox.3497:

Ohoni.6057:

It is a good thing that Raids exist in this game, it adds to the variety and now that fractals are getting certain attention and dungeons have improved as well as a game feature it is one of the best time for PvE players.

You mean instanced content players. For players that enjoy open world content the only new things added over the past six months have been the Leyline events, Bandit bounties, and Legendary moneypits, most of that over the last couple months.

Also the amount of story in the 3 wings are like 3 of the 16 HoT story missions and the 3 wing maps together are like 1/3 of a single HoT map. So the 3 wings are basically only ~15% of the HoT open world maps in terms of content.

And it’s also better than the whole of the HoT story! That is the point, not that its’ quantity is big but that its’ quality is superb and not everyone can experience it.

Ask someone to open you a finished instance. Done. You are experiencing raid story like all raiders. Or even better watch a youtube video from gw2 lore nerds and get a detailed recap of the story complete with explanations, theories and other stuff. Literally the only thing you will miss is a bit of gold and some loot from the raid bosses.

Do you really think that is the solution? To me that statement is as lazy as when the developers said it themselves, it is like telling someone to let you enter the end of the Arah story mode and talk to the NPCs to get the story of said dungeon. No! Sometimes I like to roleplay and I want my character to play a part in the new battle against the White Mantle, I want my character, and as a consequence me, to experience the events of the raid. Why do I have to be a hardcore Raid player to achieve that and why is it even so bad in many people’s eyes to give an easier story mode to the masses just for story’s sake? It will literally take nothing away from those who are enjoying the Raid system, it will just give to the casual roleplayers and lore nerds a good story because sometimes the story is the bosses themselves, not the difficulty of them.

And guess what! Maybe it IS because of the difficulty that makes them so high quality.

No.

I think if you could kill the bosses by just pressing 1 there would be no difference between raids and the HoT personal story or the open world events.

Nobody’s asking for that, but there is plenty of room for a comfortable middleground between “press 1 to kill the boss” and “a random pug that could beat a standard dungeon can expect to wipe against each boss dozens of times before eventually beating it.”

It’s not the story or the enviroment that raiders praise it’s mostly the combat and the difficulty that make raids that good.

For you, perhaps, and if that’s what you believe then the hard mode should always remain available to you, but don’t project that reason onto others as a justification for them not having the version that they would enjoy just as much as you enjoy the existing one.

Dimitris.3195:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Dimitris.3195:

Neox.3497:

Ohoni.6057:

It is a good thing that Raids exist in this game, it adds to the variety and now that fractals are getting certain attention and dungeons have improved as well as a game feature it is one of the best time for PvE players.

You mean instanced content players. For players that enjoy open world content the only new things added over the past six months have been the Leyline events, Bandit bounties, and Legendary moneypits, most of that over the last couple months.

Also the amount of story in the 3 wings are like 3 of the 16 HoT story missions and the 3 wing maps together are like 1/3 of a single HoT map. So the 3 wings are basically only ~15% of the HoT open world maps in terms of content.

And it’s also better than the whole of the HoT story! That is the point, not that its’ quantity is big but that its’ quality is superb and not everyone can experience it.

Ask someone to open you a finished instance. Done. You are experiencing raid story like all raiders. Or even better watch a youtube video from gw2 lore nerds and get a detailed recap of the story complete with explanations, theories and other stuff. Literally the only thing you will miss is a bit of gold and some loot from the raid bosses.

Do you really think that is the solution? To me that statement is as lazy as when the developers said it themselves, it is like telling someone to let you enter the end of the Arah story mode and talk to the NPCs to get the story of said dungeon.

Raid story is told through hidden notes, environment and npc dialogue. It does not work like arah.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Raid story is told through hidden notes, environment and npc dialogue. It does not work like arah.

Yup, the only ‘lore’ you might miss by not fighting the actual bosses is some meaningless boss banter to give them some personality and vague hints at what the notes and environment proceed to explain in a crystal clear manner.

And that’s for only 3 bosses really, the other 3 might as well be giant space-fleas out of nowhere with some very vague lore given to why they are there and you have to fight them (VG/Gorse/Sloth).

Edit: Scratch that, make that 2 only bosses, you could remove Trio and all you’d lose was some loot.

If Arenanet should not invest in raids that only 5% of the player population plays, why should Anet invest in opening up the bossfights to the even smaller lore enthusiast and role playing community?

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Dimitris.3195:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Dimitris.3195:

Neox.3497:

Ohoni.6057:

It is a good thing that Raids exist in this game, it adds to the variety and now that fractals are getting certain attention and dungeons have improved as well as a game feature it is one of the best time for PvE players.

You mean instanced content players. For players that enjoy open world content the only new things added over the past six months have been the Leyline events, Bandit bounties, and Legendary moneypits, most of that over the last couple months.

Also the amount of story in the 3 wings are like 3 of the 16 HoT story missions and the 3 wing maps together are like 1/3 of a single HoT map. So the 3 wings are basically only ~15% of the HoT open world maps in terms of content.

And it’s also better than the whole of the HoT story! That is the point, not that its’ quantity is big but that its’ quality is superb and not everyone can experience it.

Ask someone to open you a finished instance. Done. You are experiencing raid story like all raiders. Or even better watch a youtube video from gw2 lore nerds and get a detailed recap of the story complete with explanations, theories and other stuff. Literally the only thing you will miss is a bit of gold and some loot from the raid bosses.

Do you really think that is the solution? To me that statement is as lazy as when the developers said it themselves, it is like telling someone to let you enter the end of the Arah story mode and talk to the NPCs to get the story of said dungeon.

Raid story is told through hidden notes, environment and npc dialogue. It does not work like arah.

Are you telling me that Matthias, the very first true White Mantle member in Guild Wars 2 or his dialogue during the fight does not tell part of the story? Simply not true! To the story fighting Mordremoth or Zhaitan in person is as important as fighting Matthias or whatever the last boss of the Stronghold of the Faithful is going to be (possibly Lazarus), and just a run through of what remains isn’t going to give the full context of the plot of the Forsaken Thicket. And telling to experience the story through Youtube is even more atrocious, I paid the game to watch the story through that medium, not through one of the lore experts.

DrEckers.2039:

If Arenanet should not invest in raids that only 5% of the player population plays, why should Anet invest in opening up the bossfights to the even smaller lore enthusiast and role playing community?

First investing to make a second, more user-friendly version of the Raid would not be as much of a process since the most of it (models, animations, map, etc.) is already prepared. Second you say that the number of the lore enthusiasts is even smaller than those playing raids often, which is simply wrong. Just from looking at the fame of Youtubers like WoodenPotatoes in the GW2 community you can see that the people that care about the lore and the story of the game are not as few as you think. Most of the people I know care about the story and the lore, not as many care about raids.

Great praise for the story and the boss mechanics.

On topic: A story mode with gold-reward only would be fair imo.
I would not even mind if legendary armor was available outside the raids.
But please guys, read the following points:

1) “amount of raiders is 5%.” Even if this is the truth…it is completeley meaningless.
The only relevant number is the amount of players playing raids multiplied with the amount of money they do spend. As long as you dont know both numbers (which you can not know for sure), 5% is just a meaningless number! It is waste of time to speculate about it.

2) Raid-team size: there are ongoing discussions about it in numerous threads. I will try to sum it up:
Player A: “Raid team steals our content!”
Player B: “No it doesnt!”
Player A: “Yes it does!”
Player C: “No it doesnt!”
Player D: “Of course it does!”
Player B: “No it doesnt!”
…
Well, i am sure this will lead to success.

3) “everything has to be available for me!”
First of all, there is no gate when it comes to raids. If you dont raid, you are excluding youself.
Btw, there is a lot of content that “excludes” me (as a raider)!
Like living story season 2. I almost fall asleep when i try to do those achievements (i still did not a single one)!
Same thing regarding to collections. Out of all collections, i completed 3 (three!) of them.
I have to accept that i will never get those rewards (and this is a large part of the game).
Why cant you accept that you wont get raid rewards if you dont play them????
(As a reminder: I dont mind if legendary armor will be available on a different way)

Please, think about it.

BobbyStein.2315:

Please keep the discussions civil and on topic. This thread isn’t for debating “Raids vs. Living World” or “easy mode” but for answering high level questions regarding how raid lore fits into the rest of the game.

Here’s a tidbit for lorehounds and non-raiders, in case you’re curious about Stronghold of the Faithful but are nervous about raiding. You can enter wing 3 and get some lore and story bits right at the beginning. Anyone in a raid squad can do it.

Would love to hear from from raiders and non-raiders after the release is live and people have had a chance to check it out. We value your constructive feedback.

Sorry if I went OT, Bobby, I did try to bring it back to the central topic.

I did step into the raid with my husband when it first came out and swiftly got my behind handed to me (surprise, surprise!) so this is actually good news to hear.

Dimitris.3195:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Dimitris.3195:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Dimitris.3195:

Neox.3497:

Ohoni.6057:

It is a good thing that Raids exist in this game, it adds to the variety and now that fractals are getting certain attention and dungeons have improved as well as a game feature it is one of the best time for PvE players.

You mean instanced content players. For players that enjoy open world content the only new things added over the past six months have been the Leyline events, Bandit bounties, and Legendary moneypits, most of that over the last couple months.

Also the amount of story in the 3 wings are like 3 of the 16 HoT story missions and the 3 wing maps together are like 1/3 of a single HoT map. So the 3 wings are basically only ~15% of the HoT open world maps in terms of content.

And it’s also better than the whole of the HoT story! That is the point, not that its’ quantity is big but that its’ quality is superb and not everyone can experience it.

Ask someone to open you a finished instance. Done. You are experiencing raid story like all raiders. Or even better watch a youtube video from gw2 lore nerds and get a detailed recap of the story complete with explanations, theories and other stuff. Literally the only thing you will miss is a bit of gold and some loot from the raid bosses.

Do you really think that is the solution? To me that statement is as lazy as when the developers said it themselves, it is like telling someone to let you enter the end of the Arah story mode and talk to the NPCs to get the story of said dungeon.

Raid story is told through hidden notes, environment and npc dialogue. It does not work like arah.

Are you telling me that Matthias, the very first true White Mantle member in Guild Wars 2 or his dialogue during the fight does not tell part of the story? Simply not true! To the story fighting Mordremoth or Zhaitan in person is as important as fighting Matthias or whatever the last boss of the Stronghold of the Faithful is going to be (possibly Lazarus), and just a run through of what remains isn’t going to give the full context of the plot of the Forsaken Thicket. And telling to experience the story through Youtube is even more atrocious, I paid the game to watch the story through that medium, not through one of the lore experts.

If you wish to experience the lore of raids, there is a very simple solution: play raids.

If you don’t want to play raids, then perhaps you don’t care about the lore that much anyways.

BobbyStein.2315:

Please keep the discussions civil and on topic. This thread isn’t for debating “Raids vs. Living World” or “easy mode” but for answering high level questions regarding how raid lore fits into the rest of the game.

Here’s a tidbit for lorehounds and non-raiders, in case you’re curious about Stronghold of the Faithful but are nervous about raiding. You can enter wing 3 and get some lore and story bits right at the beginning. Anyone in a raid squad can do it.

Would love to hear from from raiders and non-raiders after the release is live and people have had a chance to check it out. We value your constructive feedback.

Really sorry for getting a bit out of topic with the “story mode”. Will post opinion for the next wing soon! Will not probably get far the first day but since there is something at the beginning as well we will have something to talk about Cheers!

Lord Darghaz.2314:

First of all, there is no gate when it comes to raids. If you don’t raid, you are excluding yourself.

There is so much truth in this.
Raids are the only reason I play the game at the moment. They offer a lot pf content, since killing a raid boss needs a lot of training. Also, preparing for raids, getting your class ready with the right equip (exotic armor is totally fine, just weapons in ascended would be nice) takes some (play-)time.

Also, I don’t understand this whole “raid team is stealing our content” discussion. I don’t play pvp… so should I brag about “pvp team is stealing my content”? So please, stop being ridiculous.

P.S. My guild has cleared raid wing 1 and 2 after several months of training. We have some players with us, that, well are not the most skilled (I would put myself somewhere there). I see no reason, why somebody should not be able to do raids. They are supposed to be difficult and there are, but on a good level in my opinion. So please, please ANET, leave raids as they are, don’t make them easier, just because some people seem to lazy to do them.

BobbyStein.2315:

Please keep the discussions civil and on topic. This thread isn’t for debating “Raids vs. Living World” or “easy mode” but for answering high level questions regarding how raid lore fits into the rest of the game.

Here’s a tidbit for lorehounds and non-raiders, in case you’re curious about Stronghold of the Faithful but are nervous about raiding. You can enter wing 3 and get some lore and story bits right at the beginning. Anyone in a raid squad can do it.

Would love to hear from from raiders and non-raiders after the release is live and people have had a chance to check it out. We value your constructive feedback.

But it’s a bit sad to be able to explore a tiny bit of the raid story, and then know that the rest will be locked out because you can’t do the rest of the raid. PLEASE open up the entire scope of it to people who are incompatible with the existing raiding experience.

CorruptEagle.1948:

Dimitris.3195:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Dimitris.3195:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Dimitris.3195:

Neox.3497:

Ohoni.6057:

It is a good thing that Raids exist in this game, it adds to the variety and now that fractals are getting certain attention and dungeons have improved as well as a game feature it is one of the best time for PvE players.

You mean instanced content players. For players that enjoy open world content the only new things added over the past six months have been the Leyline events, Bandit bounties, and Legendary moneypits, most of that over the last couple months.

Also the amount of story in the 3 wings are like 3 of the 16 HoT story missions and the 3 wing maps together are like 1/3 of a single HoT map. So the 3 wings are basically only ~15% of the HoT open world maps in terms of content.

And it’s also better than the whole of the HoT story! That is the point, not that its’ quantity is big but that its’ quality is superb and not everyone can experience it.

Ask someone to open you a finished instance. Done. You are experiencing raid story like all raiders. Or even better watch a youtube video from gw2 lore nerds and get a detailed recap of the story complete with explanations, theories and other stuff. Literally the only thing you will miss is a bit of gold and some loot from the raid bosses.

Do you really think that is the solution? To me that statement is as lazy as when the developers said it themselves, it is like telling someone to let you enter the end of the Arah story mode and talk to the NPCs to get the story of said dungeon.

Raid story is told through hidden notes, environment and npc dialogue. It does not work like arah.

Are you telling me that Matthias, the very first true White Mantle member in Guild Wars 2 or his dialogue during the fight does not tell part of the story? Simply not true! To the story fighting Mordremoth or Zhaitan in person is as important as fighting Matthias or whatever the last boss of the Stronghold of the Faithful is going to be (possibly Lazarus), and just a run through of what remains isn’t going to give the full context of the plot of the Forsaken Thicket. And telling to experience the story through Youtube is even more atrocious, I paid the game to watch the story through that medium, not through one of the lore experts.

If you wish to experience the lore of raids, there is a very simple solution: play raids.

If you don’t want to play raids, then perhaps you don’t care about the lore that much anyways.

Do you really think that roleplayers would gear up for the raid and practice bosses for hours? That is basically the diametrical opposite to roleplaying. A point blank strategy like you suggest will probably not win this kind of people over to raids as they simply are not interested in the competetive side of GW2.
Luckily, these type of player can generate their own content in their community, so they are very easy to keep in general but hard to lure into something. That does not mean that they are not interested in canon lore as it mostly the basis of their roleplaying efforts.
Only because knights and damsels are not viable in GW2 does not mean that people do not want to play them. People form RP communities for a reason, mostly because they want to play in a way that is not viable for raids.

I think an ingame book with the lore like for ls1 would be pretty sufficient for all sides.

Edit: I actually agree with you regarding ls2. That was boring and frustrating all at once.

Some kind of lore book like for ls1 seems like a completely reasonable idea to me.

Dimitris.3195:

Are you telling me that Matthias, the very first true White Mantle member in Guild Wars 2 or his dialogue during the fight does not tell part of the story?

He has 6 lines of dialogue. 2 are his generic bad guy threat, 2 is his mid combat meaningless chatter and the other 2 trigger when he uses his sacrifice attack.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Matthias_Gabrel#Dialogue

Story is gated behind ls, story is gated behind dungeons, and story is gated behind raids. But why is it only raids that people get mad about having story gated behind? Just because raids are less popular?

“Raids need a Story Mode / Dungeon Mode / Solo Mode / Easy Mode / Casual Mode” No, they don’t NEED any of this. I think the definition of “need” is a bit different than what you seem to be using it for.

“expecting the other 99% of players to read it on a Wiki or go into a empty stale cleared Raid instance.”

Again, if you want to experience the lore behind raids, then the simple solution is to play raids. If you don’t want to experience the lore enough to play raids, then why do you keep complaining here about wanting to experience the lore?

I suppose its something having 5%-10% of your players happy when the rest have been starved of proper content for 8 months.Not sure what that something is but im sure its something.