Guild Wars 2

After seeing what they have done and reading the reaction across the web (from players, reviewers and media alike), I have a much deeper issue with what has happened.

If they want to include raiding in the storytelling process, then accessibility is a big deal. All of the arguments about “raids have to be hard,” or “just find someone to carry you” really don’t fly.

Look at what they have just done. They (most likely) introduced the antagonist and primary conflict point of the next living story season (The return of the White Mantle) in a raid designed for a small percentage of the playerbase.

That means anyone that chooses not to raid – or doesn’t have the skill or patience required for raiding – was just left out of the first chapter of this story. They missed out on playing a pivotal role in that revelation. Even if they were to let people replay that introduction in some form during living story, the cat is now out of the bag. The opportunity has passed.

From a storytelling perspective that is bad. From an experiential storytelling perspective, it is disgusting.

They can say that they will cover all of this outside of raids as much as they want. But, what they actually just did is consciously leave a huge percentage of the playerbase out of what is arguably one of the most important parts of the story. For many, that will reduce both their excitement and their anticipation of the rest of the story.

Bad form.

Poor storytelling.

To the developers – either leave story out of raids or make experiencing them (not just taking a tour after someone else plays the role of the hero) considerably more accessible.

NOTE: I always go out of my way when posting on these forums to not point fingers or be overly negative, but what they have said (in this very thread) and what they have done in game are directly contradictory. It feels like there was a breakdown in communication between the teams at Anet. I love this game. I respect what they have done. But this is wrong.

So I am going to get this out of the way now. The story structure for this entire Raid has been fantastic. I’ve finally got to see the entirety of wing 3 now. So it pretty much wraps up my worries that things would fall apart in the final act. The raid has surpassed my expectations, and it has been better then core GW2 personal story all the way to HoT rushed narrative. It’s up there with season 1 introductions to the Molten Alliance and the Aetherblades. Before we found out who Scarlet was and what her involvement was. It has a good beginning, middle, and end. Even Slothasor “B” plot line made sense in some way and did not feel too jarring/forced.

Basically the writers ran with bandit connection to white mantle story arch in very well intermingled (rescue/mystery) way. Most of the questions presented at the beginning to the end are pretty much answered. Even if the “real” antagonist never shows up, but it’s still heavily hinted at. It’s kind of like Captain Mai Trin narrative in many ways, but this is far more superior.

First we start with a rescue as it’s branched off from the conclusion of HoT. Then we learn it’s not going to be a simple rescue, and there is something far more sinister is happening. However we don’t have all the answers until we succeed in the rescue. Plus there is enough narrative breadcrumbs to have us figure out what is really going on. We then have our motivation to stop this twisted and bleak legacy from continuing. The main antagonist of the raid get introduced, where we get the final piece of the puzzle. The story wraps up with us knowing just enough information without being overloaded by it.

One of the problems that GW2 has always had is pacing issues. Where the writing kept all of the answers of the story till the very end. The problem was when the end did come around, A-net was approaching a rushed deadline. Thus some of those structured narrative answers would get severely skewed. This raid story answers these questions gradually as the story progress. Instead of cramming it until the very end. Or leaving it on unsatisfying/anticlimactic cliffhanger at the narrative conclusion. Even if we still don’t have answers about either a certain Mursaat or Saul D’Alessio it still works. There is really no overuse of ambiguity in this narrative, which many main plot points in GW2 suffer from.

Now with all that said it brings me back to Bobby’s points. Since I am going to be really constructive as much as I can. First you proved me wrong. As you can see from most of what I have said above, the raid to me is a major step up from your previous endeavors. Second of all if this narrative continues only within the raid environment then is not a major problems. What I mean by that is this does not reconnect back into the main narrative in any shape or form. If any of the major plot points (minus the ley-line energy windstorm) in this raid does still intercept with the living world narrative then there might be an issue.

I still stand behind my original argument if this does connect with living world season 3. There has to be a clean narrative bridge between the raid and the living story. If it buckles then it could degrade all of the work done up to this point. Yes, there will be people who never touch this raid so they have to brought up to speed. Nevertheless it cannot be through a broad video recap of the events that happen in the raid. The raid itself was a major catalyst to reintroduce these story concepts to people who have or have not played GW1. Both Caudecus’s Manor and human personal story pale in comparison to what was done with the raid. So I beg you don’t torch that bridge if has to be made.

If this next hinted antagonist does come into the main narrative. Please don’t make them too bland like Kudu (Albert Wesker archetype) or Swiss Army Knife evil like Scarlet (British Harley Quinn archetype) was. One tip I can give is make this antagonist clever and manipulative. Just don’t go overboard and keep it grounded with actual rules. So they can be powerful but they have clear faults.

Furthermore the playable character and this antagonist must not jump to illogical conclusions. For instance both Elder Dragon “Achilles Heel” kills came out of nowhere in the end. Scarlet’s undoing was okay up till Braham stopped her from telling us why she did it abruptly. You might have not wanted a cliché of a villain using a monologue. However that writing transitions could have been handled bit better. Lastly please learn from your past mistakes. Especially rushing something out the door before it finished and polished to a shine.

On a side note I am still amazed this came from a small team of people (like SAB did). This has been probably one of the few high points for me; that Arena Net has been on for almost 4 years since GW2 launch. Just need to see if season 3 can carry this momentum from the beginning to it’s end. This is a bit shocking for me. I am actually being optimistic again about Guild Wars main narrative.

Blaeys.3102:

After seeing what they have done and reading the reaction across the web (from players, reviewers and media alike), I have a much deeper issue with what has happened.

If they want to include raiding in the storytelling process, then accessibility is a big deal. All of the arguments about “raids have to be hard,” or “just find someone to carry you” really don’t fly.

Look at what they have just done. They (most likely) introduced the antagonist and primary conflict point of the next living story season (The return of the White Mantle) in a raid designed for a small percentage of the playerbase.

That means anyone that chooses not to raid – or doesn’t have the skill or patience required for raiding – was just left out of the first chapter of this story. They missed out on playing a pivotal role in that revelation. Even if they were to let people replay that introduction in some form during living story, the cat is now out of the bag. The opportunity has passed.

From a storytelling perspective that is bad. From an experiential storytelling perspective, it is disgusting.

They can say that they will cover all of this outside of raids as much as they want. But, what they actually just did is consciously leave a huge percentage of the playerbase out of what is arguably one of the most important parts of the story. For many, that will reduce both their excitement and their anticipation of the rest of the story.

Bad form.

Poor storytelling.

To the developers – either leave story out of raids or make experiencing them (not just taking a tour after someone else plays the role of the hero) considerably more accessible.

NOTE: I always go out of my way when posting on these forums to not point fingers or be overly negative, but what they have said (in this very thread) and what they have done in game are directly contradictory. It feels like there was a breakdown in communication between the teams at Anet. I love this game. I respect what they have done. But this is wrong.

So you basically say that ArenaNet is not allowed to tell the same story twice in different areas because some people can’t the one of the areas?

Miellyn.6847:

So you basically say that ArenaNet is not allowed to tell the same story twice in different areas because some people can’t the one of the areas?

Of course I’m not saying that. Don’t be silly.

I’m also not saying raids are a bad thing or that there shouldn’t be difficult content in the game.

I’m saying that the narrative is a very important part of the interactive experience of GW2, and that raiding in its current form is restrictive and exclusionary. With those two points in mind, it is bad form to limit important story steps (like the reveal of the White Mantle’s return and the dialogue related to Mursaat) to raids.

This isn’t a book. It isn’t a TV show. It is interactive storytelling. Players need to feel like they are the hero of the story. Anet just made the decision to leave a huge percentage of their playerbase out of the start of the next story. For many of us, that will definitely hurt excitement levels going into the rest of it.

I made this post in the hopes that they stop and consider that before doing something like this in the future (or, better yet, that they develop a way for all players to more easily experience – not just visit or read about – the raid story).

So, raid lore is not a side story?

Well, then you think Bobby Stein is lying?

BobbyStein.2315:

• It will not be necessary to play Forsaken Thicket—or any future raid—in order to complete Living World or expansion stories. Raids do not gate main story progress.

• If any lore information from the raids is relevant to storylines in other content, we’ll make sure that information is also available in that other content.

• Raids are not part of our Living World episodes; they are separate game elements.

Again:

RAIDS DO NOT GATE MAIN STORY PROGRESS.

Vinceman.4572:

So, raid lore is not a side story?

Well, then you think Bobby Stein is lying?

BobbyStein.2315:

• It will not be necessary to play Forsaken Thicket—or any future raid—in order to complete Living World or expansion stories. Raids do not gate main story progress.

• If any lore information from the raids is relevant to storylines in other content, we’ll make sure that information is also available in that other content.

• Raids are not part of our Living World episodes; they are separate game elements.

Again:

RAIDS DO NOT GATE MAIN STORY PROGRESS.

Not calling anyone a liar. I just don’t think they thought it through.

If the next LS is about us versus the White Mantle, then the experience in this raid was our introduction to that story line.

And the issue isn’t about gating. Of course we can still do the living story. The issue is about experiencing the important steps as the hero of our story. The approach they are taking leaves most of the players out of the first step of the next story.

If that doesn’t bother you, fine. I can see why people not interested in the story or LS seasons – or who are comfortable with the current raid model – wouldn’t have a problem.

It does bother me. Other games pour so much of their story into raids – they are a great storytelling tool. I think Anet sees that and is attempting to mirror that success. But – in every case I can think of – those other games offer multiple raiding experiences for players of different skill levels or level of commitment.

GW2 fails to do this. This part of the story is obviously important to the next living story season (it is chapter one). So again, it may not technically be gating, but it is definitely leaving a lot of people out – and placing a story reliance on raids that I am just not comfortable with as long as GW2 raids remain in their current state (thus my fervor on the forums related to the topic).

BobbyStein.2315:

• If any lore information from the raids is relevant to storylines in other content, we’ll make sure that information is also available in that other content.

So if that other content isnt created yet, can we assume it will for the sole purpose of providing lore information present in other content?
:3

It isn’t about making sure were informed – it is about experiencing the full story.

I can have someone tell me about the first 3o minutes of a movie and I will understand what is going on, but it isn’t the same as actually seeing it. This is even more true when we are talking about interactive storytelling.

Season 3 may come around and prove me wrong, but if season 3 is centered around a conflict with the White Mantle, then those who don’t raid will be coming into the movie 30 minutes late – they will have essentially been left out of chapter one (again, even worse since video games are about the player’s experience as much as the story itself).

I know it means more developmental work, but walling off an entire game mode and saying “this is where the hardcore kids play” is not conducive to a good storytelling environment.

PVE content should be developed around the story – with all players in mind. Then you should incorporate variable difficulties (through achievements, challenge motes, tiered levels, etc) that give players of all skill levels and interests something to do in all of those modes. There is no reason for raids to be this exclusive – just as there is no reason you cannot put optional facemelting challenges in a fractals/ story steps / even world bosses (using phasing via the guild event trigger flags).

Raids cannot be walled away (even a soft difficulty-based wall) if they are part of the story. Its like writing a book for an English speaking audience and then writing the prologue/introduction in Latin (yes, I could learn Latin, but I bought a book I thought I could read in English).

Build the game for your community – and then deal with the variables therein.

Blaeys.3102:

It isn’t about making sure were informed – it is about experiencing the full story.

I can have someone tell me about the first 3o minutes of a movie and I will understand what is going on, but it isn’t the same as actually seeing it. This is even more true when we are talking about interactive storytelling.

Season 3 may come around and prove me wrong, but if season 3 is centered around a conflict with the White Mantle, then those who don’t raid will be coming into the movie 30 minutes late – they will have essentially been left out of chapter one (again, even worse since video games are about the player’s experience as much as the story itself).

I know it means more developmental work, but walling off an entire game mode and saying “this is where the hardcore kids play” is not conducive to a good storytelling environment.

PVE content should be developed around the story – with all players in mind. Then you should incorporate variable difficulties (through achievements, challenge motes, tiered levels, etc) that give players of all skill levels and interests something to do in all of those modes. There is no reason for raids to be this exclusive – just as there is no reason you cannot put optional facemelting challenges in a fractals/ story steps / even world bosses (using phasing via the guild event trigger flags).

Raids cannot be walled away (even a soft difficulty-based wall) if they are part of the story. Its like writing a book for an English speaking audience and then writing the prologue/introduction in Latin (yes, I could learn Latin, but I bought a book I thought I could read in English).

Build the game for your community – and then deal with the variables therein.

I don’t think this is a proper analogy. I generally despise analogies on the forums, but I think raids are more akin to star wars extended universe novels, and personal/living story is more akin to the movies.

The reality is that the lore in raids is a side show. That said, under your standard, no hard content could ever have any lore elements at all. Seems like a waste given how varied gw2 lore can be. And we’ve already had much more relevant lore behind hard content before — see arah and aether path.

BobbyStein.2315:

Stand The Wall.6987:

BobbyStein.2315:

• If any lore information from the raids is relevant to storylines in other content, we’ll make sure that information is also available in that other content.

So if that other content isnt created yet, can we assume it will for the sole purpose of providing lore information present in other content?
:3

Not sure I understand the question.

If any plot points or lore information from the raids are relevant to other content in the game (e.g. Living World, WvW, etc.) we’ll make sure that when you’re playing that other content you get the info you need. Does that make sense?

Even tho it was very clearly stated even before HoT launch that Raids would be a completely different separate story from Living World and all other GW2 main story.

I find it shocking, hilarious yet entirely predictable that over the last few months this has now changed into “the story is connected and if you don’t do raids we will add a wall of text to read somewhere else to catch you up”.

Once again in no way shape or form is this acceptable.

I just would like to ask, when is Anet going to adopt Blizzard’s strategy & raid design? Meaning, a functional LFR system that’s easy to use, accessible by all, and easy for people to hop in, get raiding, collect loot, and get out. People get to enjoy the lore, story, cinematics, and complete class sets all at the same time. Everything doable without min/maxing or being in a raid guild.

Until you do that, GW2 playerbase will continue to fight against raid content. You’re supposed to design a harder version of these raids for the 1%-2% hardcore raiders. While leave an accessible version for 95%+ of your playerbase that would play them.

Running LFR in that other game is part of expansion content and continued story content, something people have accustomed to doing. If GW2 wants to add raids as part of expansion content and continued story telling, then you need to make sure it’s accessible and playable by majority of your playerbase.

You can not…can not, attempt to create raid content that pleases both your casual and hardcores. By lowering difficulties of these raids, you’ll just tick off the segment of your playerbase that want more challenge. And they’ll call you on it as you promised them raids were for the challenge minded. By making these raids more difficult you’ll alienate majority of your playerbase, and you’ll be called on it once again for moving the game away from its original vision, the vision that made this game what it is today.

Don’t reinvent the wheels, look at what your competitors are doing, especially the one that’s got the most player population. By the way I’m posting this as someone who’s not interested in raiding, so I have no vested interest here. I’m not a wealthy raid guild that run raids and make bank selling raid runs, nor am I someone casual wanting to experience and get raid loot.

Personally I think raids are a mistake to implement at this point in time for GW2 because people are right, Anet isn’t Blizzard. Raids take a lot of resources to create and right now the game is lacking content, people aren’t exactly happy with content releases & development for all 3 game modes (PvE/PvP/WvW). Raids distract the game from other content no matter how much you want to say raids don’t affect other areas of the game. Blizzard has unlimited resources, Anet does not. Blizzard is printing money in Irvine, Anet is complaining about lackluster HoT expansion sales.

But, if you must do raids, then do it right. WoW has it right, make raids accessible, then make a hardcore version for those that enjoy them. The one size fits all approach doesn’t work.

Arnath.2319:

BobbyStein.2315:

Stand The Wall.6987:

BobbyStein.2315:

• If any lore information from the raids is relevant to storylines in other content, we’ll make sure that information is also available in that other content.

So if that other content isnt created yet, can we assume it will for the sole purpose of providing lore information present in other content?
:3

Not sure I understand the question.

If any plot points or lore information from the raids are relevant to other content in the game (e.g. Living World, WvW, etc.) we’ll make sure that when you’re playing that other content you get the info you need. Does that make sense?

Even tho it was very clearly stated even before HoT launch that Raids would be a completely different separate story from Living World and all other GW2 main story.

I find it shocking, hilarious yet entirely predictable that over the last few months this has now changed into “the story is connected and if you don’t do raids we will add a wall of text to read somewhere else to catch you up”.

Once again in no way shape or form is this acceptable.

Wherever I read a thread in the word “raid” in the name I find there how much you want “easy mode” for raids and statements that Living World content is not entertaining enough and it’s all a fault of raids… Don’t you think this is a bit annoying?

Raids are so cool because youhave to learn something about every boss. You train it until you know all the mechanics: what to do, when to dodge. In “easy mode” no one would even consider things like that! Players wouldn’t do anything else than pressing 1 because why should they dodge or move away from AoE if it does nothing.

Instead of becoming a better player you want a game to downgrade to your personal level. And this content is not even hard. It just requires time. Wing 3 is out and it’s probably the easiest raid wing so far. I’ve beaten it all in 10 hours with PuGs. 1st event/boss doesn’t even have a timer. It can’t be any easier. Everyone can do it.

People are misinterpreting many of the reasons people want a story mode or tiered difficulty.

First, by choosing to introduce the antagonist and plot line from the next living story (most likely) in this content, they are leaving people out of the story. You may say things like “but there isn’t much story there” or “you can read it somewhere else,” but it doesn’t change the fact that this is an important part of the next story – it was the big reveal. That should be accessible to anyone wanting to experience (not just see it) – simply because, without that experience, there is considerably less excitement for what comes next.

Second, this isn’t a new concept. Pretty much every successful game out there with raids includes tiered difficulty or some other mechanic to ensure raids aren’t just for the most dedicated. They do that for good reason – it drums up more interest in raids, gives people a place to see and get used to mechanics before diving in and removes some of the frustration that comes with learning to raid.

Finally, as Assic notes above, raids aren’t necessarily hard (this is true in most raiding games). It is about time – the time to build out a character, to learn to play that character and to learn the dance steps of the raid encounters (it can be little more than a big memorization game in many cases). GW2 has always been the MMO for people with less time. That has been always been one of the game’s primary selling points. It is why I left a hardcore WoW raiding guild (after 6+ years) to come to GW2. The Anet approach to raids takes the game in a direction that doesn’t really fit with the rest of the game.

I don’t know if it will make a difference. It may be that the developers are dead set against this kind of change and we are stuck with what we’ve got. I for one hope that is not the case (thus my passion and willingness to tolerate the forum rage to press the point). GW2 has always been about innovation and community. I want to see a little more of both in their raid design.

Absurdo.8309:

The reality is that the lore in raids is a side show. That said, under your standard, no hard content could ever have any lore elements at all. Seems like a waste given how varied gw2 lore can be. And we’ve already had much more relevant lore behind hard content before — see arah and aether path.

The problem is, if the next LS chapter centers on the White Mantle conflict, then this raid story is most definitely not a side show – it is chapter one.

If the difficulty were on par with Arah or Aetherpath, I would be very pleased. Those were well designed instances. The big difference comes when they add enrage timers – which force people down specific metas and severely limit the strategic and tactical choices a group can make when dealing with an encounter. For me, creating an easy mode may be as easy as removing the timers (or going with the gold/silver/bronze reward system from the rest of the game – just based on kill time).

Again, I hope this is something they look at and consider strongly. There are a lot of people out there who could and would enjoy the experience.

I’ve heard two things from Bobby Stein on this. One, as stated in this thread, the story in the raid isn’t a central beat to what we’ll see in LS3, and the lore in the raid can all be gained from a cleared instance. Two, stated in yesterday’s Guild Chat, there are interesting clues in the dialogues from NPCs and players in the raids, that vary depending on race and profession of the player characters and on top of that have a bit of RNG as to which VO one hears at any given moment.

Until that Guild Chat comment I figured the fights were extraneous to the lore and was just mulling over when to figure out a way into a cleared instance. Now, hmm. It seems some nuances are available only during combat?

On the other hand I really don’t have time in combat to notice random commentary, so it might not matter to me anyway even if I could get past VG and see the rest of the story in there.

I think one big source of discontent for the non-raiders is there just hasn’t been any source of new story info for a very long time other than in the raids. The recent bits of ley and bandit incursions along with the propaganda broadsides has helped a lot, at least for me. If we’d been getting little things like that in the open world along with the stuff happening in the raids, perhaps fewer rabbles would have been roused? So to speak

IMO, raids should’ve never been in this game, but…whatever.

I’m going to agree with the people that want it accessible for more players. Do it through tiered difficulty with different reward levels or just stick an easy mode with no rewards at all. The “hardcore” literally have NO reason to complain. Their experience will not be affected. As a matter of fact, it will be added to it. More players will learn the raid for the highest level, therefore players won’t have to freakin’ join a guild or wait ages for pugs. The “hardcore” will actually BENEFIT from this.

For a tiered System the Raid Team needs to be bigger, which quite a few People here would Rage against, since they want the Raid Team disbanded.
There is a Core Team of 5 Devs working only on Raids and the Team itself is never bigger than 10. Anet is not Blizzard who has a big Team for Raids and thus being able to make multiple difficulty Tiers.

Every Mode has to be balanced so it isn’t too easy or too difficult for that Difficulty Tier and Balancing is not just tweaking Damage and Health Numbers its also changing Mechanics to make them more (un)forgiving more frequent less frequent, their effects etc etc. For Anet its not feasable right now to do that Extra Work.

And a Story Mode without Rewards? After a short Time it would be really hard to find People interested for Story Mode.

Walhalla.5473:

For a tiered System the Raid Team needs to be bigger, which quite a few People here would Rage against, since they want the Raid Team disbanded.
There is a Core Team of 5 Devs working only on Raids and the Team itself is never bigger than 10. Anet is not Blizzard who has a big Team for Raids and thus being able to make multiple difficulty Tiers.

Every Mode has to be balanced so it isn’t too easy or too difficult for that Difficulty Tier and Balancing is not just tweaking Damage and Health Numbers its also changing Mechanics to make them more (un)forgiving more frequent less frequent, their effects etc etc. For Anet its not feasable right now to do that Extra Work.

And a Story Mode without Rewards? After a short Time it would be really hard to find People interested for Story Mode.

If they cannot do it right, then they shouldn’t do it. The negative impacts (splintering the community, walling off important story steps, etc) just aren’t worth it.

That said, I think expanding raids to be more inclusive is worth the investment (and I’m not convinced that investment would be as large as people think).

You realize that Raids are the endgame content in Guild Wars 2. And finishing main story, expansion story doesn’t mean that you are in endgame already. Endgame in Guild Wars 2 means that you have spent a ton of time in this game and you have nothing else to do.
Just look at the graph: https://gw2efficiency.com/account/statistics

People with higher amount of time spent in game have much more Magnetide Shards than someone with less than 1000h. Because those people know all the mechanics, know how to dodge properly etc. Raids are for those people.

• At the begining you do easy dungeons.
• Then you do fractals.
• And then when you have experience and ascended gear from fractals you can go for raids.

I see a lot of people who just go stright on for raids, wipe a few times (what never happens in dungeons) and then cry on forums that they want raids to be easy like dungeons are. But they don’t get that this content is just not for them.

Assic.2746:

You realize that Raids are the endgame content in Guild Wars 2.

I really hope the developers do not agree with this statement.

It would be telling to hear from them on it, though.

I would hope that they understand – there is no right or wrong way to play this game, thus none of this is really endgame.

If the game is now designed to culminate in an experience just for raiders, then you will see a lot of people very displeased with the direction of the game.

I don’t get it… everyone can try out raids. But it doesn’t mean that everyone can make it though the raid. The same thing as in PvP everyone can play it and not everyone will be able to hit the Legendary Division.

Conclusion: It’s not the game mode that is bad, but a player who is not good enough.

Assic.2746:

I don’t get it… everyone can try out raids. But it doesn’t mean that everyone can make it though the raid. The same thing as in PvP everyone can play it and not everyone will be able to hit the Legendary Division.

Conclusion: It’s not the game mode that is bad, but a player who is not good enough.

All of these other game modes – even PvP through the lower divisions – offer a tiered experience for players of varied skill and interest levels.

And, every other successful raiding MMO out there does the same.

That is where GW2 raids fail.

ESPECIALLY if story is involved (the topic of this thread), then raids need that tiered experience.

Ok now I have a question how much time have you spend in raids so far? In Spirit Vale, Salvation Pass, Stronghold of the Faithful?

Assic.2746:

Ok now I have a question how much time have you spend in raids so far? In Spirit Vale, Salvation Pass, Stronghold of the Faithful?

A lot, actually, and I even enjoy the difficulty and experience. I am also an ex WoW hardcore raider – I led progression level raiding there for 6+ years and even have some world firsts under my belt.

I understand the appeal of raiding. I’m also the guild leader for a very active diverse group of people in GW2 (100+ very active members). I see first hand the divisive nature of raids in the game – and the need for a deeper experience that appeals to a broader group of players, including what you would label casuals.

I don’t make these statements as uniformed or just crying about wanting things I cant have (I can have them). I am legitimately worried about the divisive nature of raids – the exclusion of PVE players from an important part of the story – and the need for tiered difficultly levels to appeal to more players.

It is about the direction of the game. I love GW2. I have loved it since the very first beta weekend. I am (obviously) very passionate about it. I want to keep on loving it.

But raids rather or raid already has different difficulty levels.

Forsaken Thicket:

• Wing 3 – the easiest wing, very forgiving,
• Wing 1 – a bit harder than Wing 3 mainly because there is one more boss and Gorseval requires a lot more DPS from players than Keep Construct,
• Wing 2 – the harderst.

I believe Raid Team noticed that people want scaled difficulty so they implemented it in Wing 3.

• First boss is an event without a timer!
• Second boss literally can’t kill a player. If you kitten up with ghosts it’s not even a wipe. Just the fight will be a bit harder.
• And to beat Xera you just have to know how to glide.

At the same time they showed that raiders can expect scalled difficulty in the future raids. Each next boss will be harder. But there won’t be an easy mode. Which I believe is really fair for the players who are raiding for a long time now and for the newbies. Casual raider will most likely kill the first boss and get a lot of experience at the second one, but beating the last boss will require something more. And that’s fine I think.

Assic.2746:

…

I do believe they will implement tiered difficulty. They have already communicated that they are willing to consider it – and I believe they will eventually have to see the very clear reasons it is needed.

That said – and back to the topic of this thread – if they choose to use the model you use above, then they definitely should not have any relevant story in raids. You cannot exclude players from important steps (and the reveal of the White Mantle is an important step) and expect it to not have an impact on their excitement for the rest of the story.

Again, however, I think this will be a moot point eventually. Every raiding MMO out there eventually realizes the importance of a tiered difficulty model. Anet will too.

I know that a lot of people demands raid’s story. But one thing they can make is to improve chatters between the character.

What do I mean here is (example):
1. A completly new person enters the instance.
2. The new player passes through the boss arena (ofc boss have already been defeated).
3. The player’s character asks “What was that?” etc.
4. One of the instance owners gives him an answer/a short description of the boss.

Blaeys.3102:

Walhalla.5473:

For a tiered System the Raid Team needs to be bigger, which quite a few People here would Rage against, since they want the Raid Team disbanded.
There is a Core Team of 5 Devs working only on Raids and the Team itself is never bigger than 10. Anet is not Blizzard who has a big Team for Raids and thus being able to make multiple difficulty Tiers.

Every Mode has to be balanced so it isn’t too easy or too difficult for that Difficulty Tier and Balancing is not just tweaking Damage and Health Numbers its also changing Mechanics to make them more (un)forgiving more frequent less frequent, their effects etc etc. For Anet its not feasable right now to do that Extra Work.

And a Story Mode without Rewards? After a short Time it would be really hard to find People interested for Story Mode.

If they cannot do it right, then they shouldn’t do it. The negative impacts (splintering the community, walling off important story steps, etc) just aren’t worth it.

That said, I think expanding raids to be more inclusive is worth the investment (and I’m not convinced that investment would be as large as people think).

So you want Anet to drop Raid Development because you can’t get an easy Mode?

Sounds pretty selfish.

Assic.2746:

I know that a lot of people demands raid’s story. But one thing they can make is to improve chatters between the character.

What do I mean here is (example):
1. A completly new person enters the instance.
2. The new player passes through the boss arena (ofc boss have already been defeated).
3. The player’s character asks “What was that?” etc.
4. One of the instance owners gives him an answer/a short description of the boss.

This is interactive storytelling. It isn’t about the lore. It is about experiencing the content as the hero of the story. The first thing we all heard our characters say in the game ended with the statement “this is my story,” – not, this is the story I got to hear about after the fact.

It’s only one sentence for cutscene and moreover it comes from personal story. It has nothing to do with raids.

Assic.2746:

It’s only one sentence for cutscene and moreover it comes from personal story. It has nothing to do with raids.

The raid itself was the reveal of the White Mantle as the next threat to Tyria. Raiders experienced that in the same way we experienced the reveal of Mordremoth, Scarlett or Zhaitan as the enemy during those story arcs.

Chapter one of the next story is done and revealed (or at least the prologue). Anet chose to give that experience (key word – experience, not just knowledge of) exclusively to raiders. The big irony is most raiders probably cared very little about that experience in comparison to the fights themselves.

That was a misstep, imo – and something I don’t think they thought through properly.

That kind of reveal (or any resolution or other key plot points) cannot be limited to that degree – if they choose to keep raids solely in their current format.

Silverwastes map revealed it 1,5 year ago – [Lost Badge] White Mantle was teased a long time ago as well as connections between bandits from Brisban Wildlands and White Mantle members from Silverwastes. Just read the notes in bandit camps (Brisban) and notes in Silverwastes they are talking about the same things: unsusual events & further observations.

All story fans should know that.

edit: typo

Assic.2746:

Silverwastes map revealed it 1,5 year ago – [Lost Badge]

Youre saying that picking up a badge in the desert a year and a half ago was the reveal for the next living story – and that is somehow comparable to actually fighting through an instance in terms of story telling value?

I think that is reaching just a little bit.

Blaeys.3102:

Youre saying that picking up a badge in the desert a year and a half ago was the reveal for the next living story – and that is somehow comparable to actually fighting through an instance in terms of story telling value?

I think that is reaching just a little bit.

Yep, because fighting a giant thing made out of energy – Vale Guardian points more at the White Mantle than actually finding a White Mantle badge. Sarcasm Overload

By the way if you didn’t notice story telling in raids comes from: talking to NPCs, interacting with objects, examinating dead bodies in Spirit Vale, reading notes in Salvation Pass, reading journals in Stronghold of the Faithful (there are more books than just Glenna’s journal) and of course talking to Glenna. All those things can be done in a cleared instance.

Majority of story is contained in things listed above when bosses say only a few sentences if any at all (Slothosor, VG, Gorseval, McLeod). So yea interacting with objects like Lost Badges is a important way of story telling and has much more value than a few boss dialogues.

Assic.2746:

Yep, because fighting a giant thing made out of energy – Vale Guardian points more at the White Mantle than actually finding a White Mantle badge.

By the way if you didn’t notice story telling from raids comes from: talking to NPCs, interacting with objects, examinating dead bodies in Spirit Vale, reading notes in Salvation Pass, reading journals in Stronghold of the Faithful (there are more books than just Glenna’s journal) and of course talking to Glenna. All those things can be done in a cleared instance.

Majority of story is contained in things listed above when bosses say only a few sentences if any at all (Slothosor, VG, Gorseval, McLeod). So yea interacting with objects like Lost Badges is a important way of story telling and has much moe value than a few boss dialogues.

Again, youre missing the key word – which is experiencing the story, not just reading about it.

Well not in raids. Story in raids is gated between the encounters.

Stronghost of the Faithful:

• Glenna sums up the events.
• McLeod encounter.
• Then you can explore the stronghold and interact with objects.
• Keep Construct encounter.
• Then you can explore the Twisted Castle (nothing in there, but you can play inside even in the cleared instance).
• Xera encounter.
• You can explore Temple of The Awakening and interact with object. All the dialogs here come from Glenna and from interacting with the objects. And you don’t even need to read your character will comment on it.

I could say that in the Raid we are

Wrecking some Pylons
Meeting up with a Hentai Monster
Seducing a Hot Chick
Sleeping with a Mutant after eating too many Muschrooms
Giving 3 Bandits what they want ( Berg his Honey, Zane a bit Playtime with his Wargs and Narella the Funeral Pyre she always wanted )
Using a Backscratcher to scratch some Crystals off Matthias Back
Calling our Ten good Men
Trashing some Rubble
And finally having Glider Malfunctions high up in the Air.

And It would still be accurate for all the Boss Fights, since the Boss Fights reveal nothing. ( Still awesome the Bossfights )

That there would be White Mantle Stuff in the Story somewhere is known since LS2 with the Silverwastes. You have White Mantle Badges in SW and a few Pieces of Paper there, one talking about New Kryta and the Forts were abandoned because of Mordremoth.

Walhalla.5473:

I could say that in the Raid we are

Wrecking some Pylons
Meeting up with a Hentai Monster
Seducing a Hot Chick
Sleeping with a Mutant after eating too many Muschrooms
Giving 3 Bandits what they want ( Berg his Honey, Zane a bit Playtime with his Wargs and Narella the Funeral Pyre she always wanted )
Using a Backscratcher to scratch some Crystals off Matthias Back
Calling our Ten good Men
Trashing some Rubble
And finally having Glider Malfunctions high up in the Air.

And It would still be accurate for all the Boss Fights, since the Boss Fights reveal nothing. ( Still awesome the Bossfights )

That there would be White Mantle Stuff in the Story somewhere is known since LS2 with the Silverwastes. You have White Mantle Badges in SW and a few Pieces of Paper there, one talking about New Kryta and the Forts were abandoned because of Mordremoth.

Then, there is absolutely no reason for that story to have been first put into play through raids. Were back to my original premise – including this story experience in raids (in their current, less accessible form) was a misstep on the part of the developers. This should have been revealed through living story or other more accessible content.

Be honest – how many raiders raid for the story? Compare that to the number of people in the game interested in being the hero of the story. It may not be huge, but it was a mistake to have this story step revealed in a raid.

What I’m saying is that the Fights itself don’t add anything substantional to the Story. You want to experience the Story? Go into a Cleared Instance, you are meant to read the Stuff if you want to experience the Story. Reading about it is the same as experiencing it.

Also Raids are very accessible, you have no Gear Score attunments etc preventing you from entering them.

Yep it’s as Walhalla says. If someone wants to experience the fight he can just go for the training run. Many of training raids are only to teach mechanic of the boss not to beat it and players don’t need ascended armor for it, exotic is enough. Everyone can experience the fight.

I do raids for the story and for the LI, fancy titles, exclusive skins, miniatures and everything else it offers. And I really read everything and interact with everything. I run with my Spirit Quest Tonic here and there looking for some hints. Glenna’s Journal has more informations about Spirit Vale and Salvation Pass than you can find by doing those wings. But you have to read it all. Why you can’t understand that reading books and interacting with objects is a way to experience story in raids.

I am a lore freak. I try to find out everything I can about events, characters etc. If I can’t do it in game I look for more on reddit on wiki. And there is nothing wrong with learining about the raid’s story from this sources of from cleared instances.

I bet majority of players that love story so much didn’t know that:

Silverwastes map revealed it 1,5 year ago – [Lost Badge] White Mantle was teased a long time ago as well as connections between bandits from Brisban Wildlands and White Mantle members from Silverwastes. Just read the notes in bandit camps (Brisban) and notes in Silverwastes they are talking about the same things: unsusual events & further observations.

But they keep saying that White Mantle was revealed in raids. And that is incorrect!

Assic.2746:

Yep it’s as Walhalla says. If someone wants to experience the fight he can just go for the training run. Many of training raids are only to teach mechanic of the boss not to beat it and players don’t need ascended armor for it, exotic is enough. Everyone can experience the fight.

I do raids for the story and for the LI, fancy titles, exclusive skins, miniatures and everything else it offers. And I really read everything and interact with everything. I run with my Spirit Quest Tonic here and there looking for some hints. Glenna’s Journal has more informations about Spirit Vale and Salvation Pass than you can find by doing those wings. But you have to read it all. Why you can’t understand that reading books and interacting with objects is a way to experience story in raids.

I am a lore freak. I try to find out everything I can about events, characters etc. If I can’t do it in game I look for more on reddit on wiki. And there is nothing wrong with learining about the raid’s story from this sources of from cleared instances.

I bet majority of players that love story so much didn’t know that:

Silverwastes map revealed it 1,5 year ago – [Lost Badge] White Mantle was teased a long time ago as well as connections between bandits from Brisban Wildlands and White Mantle members from Silverwastes. Just read the notes in bandit camps (Brisban) and notes in Silverwastes they are talking about the same things: unsusual events & further observations.

But they keep saying that White Mantle was revealed in raids. And that is incorrect!

Not the White Mantle themselves, but their involvement in the next living story (which I realize I am assuming).

Its a video game. The experience is everything. Being at the center of the story is just as important (moreso) than the story itself.

That is what casual players are missing out on.

Again, I realize how trivial this seems. It is still something that should have been done in an inclusive setting. If raids aren’t going to be inclusive, then they are the wrong place for stuff like this.

Existance of the White Mantle was revealed even earlier in the human personal story. Why we don’t complain about it? Why it’s only for humans? Maybe my sylvari want to experience it as well? Maybe I don’t have enough character slots to create a human and experience it? It’s all sarcasm of course. But it’s none different than saying that only raiders can interract with the White Mantle.

Assic.2746:

Existance of the White Mantle was revealed even earlier in the human personal story. Why we don’t complain about it? Why it’s only for humans? Maybe my sylvari want to experience it as well? Maybe I don’t have enough character slots to create a human and experience it? It’s all sarcasm of course. But it’s none different than saying that only raiders can interract with the White Mantle.

Once again, not their existence, but their role in the next living story step. Storytelling in an active setting.

I know that the flame legion exist too, but that doesn’t mean were getting ready to go face them. I will know that when my character experiences a conflict situation with someone from the Flame Legion and realizes “oh crap, here they come” (hopefully not in a less inclusive setting like a raid).

I’m going to make a very, very silly and not really accurate comparison. Yet I’ll do it to reflect how I feel about all this. Here it goes:

Let’s say “The Lord of the Rings” movie trilogy is the whole story.

Now let’s imagine we all can see “The Two Towers” and “The Return of the King” without any problem, but “The Fellowship of he Ring” is only available to people who can play piano. They will also receive a cool piano as a reward for their performance.

Of course, everyone can read the novels, and read the reviews, and ask a piano player friend to narrate the whole movie. But it still isn’t the same as seeing the movie.

Playing the piano is a nice skill to have, but you’ll need to invest a lot of time just to get the basics, and anyone who can’t invest that time just will never be able to see the movie.

Fun thing is we all paid the ticket for the movies. But as long as you can’t play the piano, you’ll not be able to see the beggining of the story, period.

Some people who can’t play piano are asking if they can just sing instead. They are also saying they don’t want the great piano prize, they would be happy with only seeing the movie. On the other side a bunch of piano players say they want the movie to remain exclusive only for them.

I’m sure I could sing decently if I practice for a time. The time I would need to learn how to play piano, and all the equipment involved is just beyond my possibilities. Yet I don’t understand why the first movie have to be only for people who play piano.

Ardid.7203:

I’m going to make a very, very silly and not really accurate comparison. Yet I’ll do it to reflect how I feel about all this. Here it goes:

Let’s say “The Lord of the Rings” movie trilogy is the whole story.

Now let’s imagine we all can see “The Two Towers” and “The Return of the King” without any problem, but “The Fellowship of he Ring” is only available to people who can play piano. They will also receive a cool piano as a reward for their performance.

Of course, everyone can read the novels, and read the reviews, and ask a piano player friend to narrate the whole movie. But it still isn’t the same as seeing the movie.

Playing the piano is a nice skill to have, but you’ll need to invest a lot of time just to get the basics, and anyone who can’t invest that time just will never be able to see the movie.

Fun thing is we all paid the ticket for the movies. But as long as you can’t play the piano, you’ll not be able to see the beggining of the story, period.

Some people who can’t play piano are asking if they can just sing instead. They are also saying they don’t want the great piano prize, they would be happy with only seeing the movie. On the other side a bunch of piano players say they want the movie to remain exclusive only for them.

I’m sure I could sing decently if I practice for a time. The time I would need to learn how to play piano, and all the equipment involved is just beyond my possibilities. Yet I don’t understand why the first movie have to be only for people who play piano.

I think this is a false analogy. I find that these types of analogies rarely aid in these forum discussions.

All that is stopping you from raiding is you. All you need to do is walk in.

And the lore in raids is not the main event. It’s not the blockbuster movie. It’s more akin to the LOTR DVD commentary, the GW2 novels, or the star wars extended universe novels.

The main event is personal story and living world, which is pretty easy.

And lets not pretend that lore elements have not been behind hard content before. See arah explorable, aether path.

Ah, but Aether path and other dungeons are doable with 5 pugs, 10 mins of coordination and 1 hour of work. Raids require WAY more time and interaction just to make a group.

I was trying raid wing 3 at the weekend to see how much of the lore promise Mr Stein was able to hold, but on the way to look at it, I realized why I personally don´t like to raid:
Its boring to run on again and again against the same obstacle while you have to pay attention to it at same time. My team mates went nuts when we fought on for another little patch of land at the tower stuff, but I simply could not get the thrill of that. I did not even have the short lived rush of attempting VG for the first time.

I am principly a solo PvE’r who will do casual dungeon runs, and tried fractals back before the recent changes were made. Which means that raids could be hit-or-miss for me. And after reading up on the ANet here and other people’s thoughts about the implications of LWS3, I can say that I’m one of the players who isn’t too excited about this. Yes, nothing will be “gated” if you haven’t done the raid, but gated content is not the same as experience vs synopsis. Those of us who did not run the raid or aren’t interested in it can still play LWS3, but the only way we will learn about the story connected to the raid is by watching/reading the synposis that will be in S3 and/or looking it up online in our free time. Which, to me, even if it isn’t something that will take any time or effort, still seems like a strange story choice.

Example: Dungeons have stories and lore that tie in to the bigger picture, but no where, beyond the little mail messages you get when you hit the respective level for that dungeon, is that dungeon’s story referenced to much degree in the PvE environment. You can go through your Personal Story, defeat Zhaitan, and the dungeon stories contribute very little beyond simply telling you what the members of Destiny’s Edge were doing while you were off gallivanting with your Order.

Now, with LWS3, it sounds like the raid will be heavily referenced, unlike the dungeons of core Tyria.

Moyayuki.3619:

I am principly a solo PvE’r who will do casual dungeon runs, and tried fractals back before the recent changes were made. Which means that raids could be hit-or-miss for me. And after reading up on the ANet here and other people’s thoughts about the implications of LWS3, I can say that I’m one of the players who isn’t too excited about this. Yes, nothing will be “gated” if you haven’t done the raid, but gated content is not the same as experience vs synopsis. Those of us who did not run the raid or aren’t interested in it can still play LWS3, but the only way we will learn about the story connected to the raid is by watching/reading the synposis that will be in S3 and/or looking it up online in our free time. Which, to me, even if it isn’t something that will take any time or effort, still seems like a strange story choice.

Example: Dungeons have stories and lore that tie in to the bigger picture, but no where, beyond the little mail messages you get when you hit the respective level for that dungeon, is that dungeon’s story referenced to much degree in the PvE environment. You can go through your Personal Story, defeat Zhaitan, and the dungeon stories contribute very little beyond simply telling you what the members of Destiny’s Edge were doing while you were off gallivanting with your Order.

Now, with LWS3, it sounds like the raid will be heavily referenced, unlike the dungeons of core Tyria.

Did you even read the post lmao?

Moyayuki.3619:

Now, with LWS3, it sounds like the raid will be heavily referenced, unlike the dungeons of core Tyria.

If the villain is Caudecus, which is pretty likely, then you can expect some references to CM.