Guild Wars 2

I think the most recent trailer for S3 dispels any notion that raids were not a significant part of the next story arc (the introduction, in fact).

That is, imo, bad form and bad storytelling – but only because of the raid accessibility issue.

As much as some don’t want it, raids need tiered difficulties, especially if they are to be used to advance the story (in even the slightest way).

Chaos.5072:

Did you even read the post lmao?

Did you? If you look closely, it does not address those points in the slightest. All the points that are answered are either side issues, or something noone was really concerned at all.

Blaeys.3102:

I think the most recent trailer for S3 dispels any notion that raids were not a significant part of the next story arc (the introduction, in fact).

That is, imo, bad form and bad storytelling – but only because of the raid accessibility issue.

As much as some don’t want it, raids need tiered difficulties, especially if they are to be used to advance the story (in even the slightest way).

I’m no lore expert, but is that Caudecus’s voice in the trailer?

BobbyStein.2315:

Blaeys.3102:

I think the most recent trailer for S3 dispels any notion that raids were not a significant part of the next story arc (the introduction, in fact).

Hold that judgment until you play the episode.

Okay, but if the next story is about the White Mantle, then you have to agree that our introduction to them – as the antagonists and primary source of conflict – came through the raid.

Even if you choose to retell that in some way in living story, it was still introduced to the smaller group of raiders first – something that could have been avoided with a more open raid model. That is where the bad form comes from (again, if WM are a major part of the next story).

Blaeys.3102:

BobbyStein.2315:

Blaeys.3102:

I think the most recent trailer for S3 dispels any notion that raids were not a significant part of the next story arc (the introduction, in fact).

Hold that judgment until you play the episode.

Okay, but if the next story is about the White Mantle, then you have to agree that our introduction to them – as the antagonists and primary source of conflict – came through the raid.

Even if you choose to retell that in some way in living story, it was still introduced to the smaller group of raiders first – something that could have been avoided with a more open raid model. That is where the bad form comes from (again, if WM are a major part of the next story).

Oh no! White Mantle was introduced to large group of people who played GW1. Now they can know all lore behind WM and what is worse – if, we, GW2 players want to experience it we would need to pay for that by buying game! Shame and pay2experience-lore.

Seriously? Can we stop that madness and endless (also pointless) discussion and let each subgroup of community enjoy content without interfering with game balance?
Thanks!

TheLilith.2849:

Blaeys.3102:

BobbyStein.2315:

Blaeys.3102:

I think the most recent trailer for S3 dispels any notion that raids were not a significant part of the next story arc (the introduction, in fact).

Hold that judgment until you play the episode.

Okay, but if the next story is about the White Mantle, then you have to agree that our introduction to them – as the antagonists and primary source of conflict – came through the raid.

Even if you choose to retell that in some way in living story, it was still introduced to the smaller group of raiders first – something that could have been avoided with a more open raid model. That is where the bad form comes from (again, if WM are a major part of the next story).

Oh no! White Mantle was introduced to large group of people who played GW1. Now they can know all lore behind WM and what is worse – if, we, GW2 players want to experience it we would need to pay for that by buying game! Shame and pay2experience-lore.

You’re confusing the terms lore and story.

What you are talking about above is lore – colorful background that isn’t part of the current story arc.

The issue is with the current story arc and how the player experiences it. If a key part of that story (and the introduction of the antagonist is a key part) is available to only a small group, then that – understandably – diminishes excitement for those who feel left out of it.

I agree that, imo, introducing a general story (who is for everyone) through raid (who is for a minority) is a wrong decission.

But bobby pointed the right thing: maybe what happens in the raid is not such important in the story.
And even if it is, it may be properly explained so everyone, includding those that never touched a raid or gw1 can understand it.

In any case i must say that i really liked the raid story, and that HoT story was really good until DS part, which was clearly rushed. So i trust the story team can deliver a good thing, well explained, with twists, and etc. And i hope there is some relation between raid and story, because that would make to me (a person who play raids and enjoyed that story) the whole game more cohisive.

In any case, lets wait till 26th to see if any raid related story was important or not or if it was well explained for any who didnt play gw1 or raids.

Then start discussing instead of diverting the topic to nitpick my word choices.

Easy mode raids will ruin raiding. Being able to see the bosses in an easy mode and then go in the normal mode will trivialize the only somewhat challenging content we have in the game.

Anyone who thinks otherwise isn’t a true raider, and shouldn’t even have a say in what raids should be. ArenaNet’s main goal with raids should be to satisfy RAIDERS, not non-raiders. You guys have literally the other 98% of the game. Let us have our 3 tiny instances.

If you’re that upset that you might miss out on a tiny bit of story that has nothing to do with the living world (that you can easily get though other means, BTW) and are willing to suffocate the enjoyment of an entire sub-community just to see it, you might want to get outside and rethink your priorities.

Ive been discussing the topic – a lot more than I want to actually.

As it relates to story (this thread – there are others threads more appropriate for the other discussions about raids), I think it is a good idea, as Mr Stein prompted, to wait and see what next week brings and, if the issue still exists, address it in more detail then.

I obviously disagree with the points you are trying to make about raids (strongly disagree), but in order to keep threads on topic, I would direct you to one of those other threads, as the topic here really is about how the story is delivered – which again, is probably better discussed next week.

No Blaeys, you are not. Some day you also should accept that there are things not to be discussed any longer.
You are stepping into every thread spreading your opinion just to have a controversal thing going on. That leads to nothing.
Over the last two weeks everything was said about lore, different modes, untrue inaccessibility of raids and way more.
We are done here, nothing but circling over circling and even statemens from Arenanet developers weren’t read properly or just denied as to be untrue. Bobby told all we need to know and maybe you should accept what he was talking. Period.

At this point, I am willing to put this discussion on hold until we see what we actually get next week.

I think that is a fair request.

Yes, I have been diligent in communicating my point of view on the state of raiding, but I think it is worth noting that I have not started a single thread on the topic, and I am far from the only voice expressing this point of view (especially when you look at threads outside the raid and dungeon subforum, where you will – obviously – find more raiders and more in favor of what they are now).

Likewise, I have not been keeping the topic alive by myself. Voices from all sides weigh in daily. I don’t see it stopping any time soon. And there are still some good conversations taking place (like the one about story here).

Let’s continue to disagree with one another, and, likewise, let’s respect that the forums are here for exactly this kind of discussion. It is important that all of these voices be heard.

You know what’s even more likely….

Those current event’s are a larger tie in than raids. So lets hop off the raid hate station and use some common sense.

TexZero.7910:

You know what’s even more likely….

Those current event’s are a larger tie in than raids.

Considering how little they contain, that’s unlikely. But if that happened to be true, i’m not sure how this might be better, because it would mean the story in LS would have to be equally bad.

Chaos.5072:

Anyone who thinks otherwise isn’t a true raider, and shouldn’t even have a say in what raids should be. ArenaNet’s main goal with raids should be to satisfy RAIDERS, not non-raiders. You guys have literally the other 98% of the game. Let us have our 3 tiny instances.

I’m very much a non-raider, I couldn’t care a kitten for the phet lewt they have and which some raiders seem to think makes them somehow special for having.

I play for the story, and if story/lore is locked inside raids then I lose out .. there’s no point putting story/lore aspects into content 99.9% which I suggest of those who play it aren’t remotely interested in, as it doesn’t provide any ‘rewards’ they can kitten with.

BobbyStein.2315:

Blaeys.3102:

I think the most recent trailer for S3 dispels any notion that raids were not a significant part of the next story arc (the introduction, in fact).

Hold that judgment until you play the episode.

Didn’t we learn from the main story changes that came with the NPE that people hate experiencing the story out of order? There are people who simply wont be playing the episode until they’ve had the chance to experience the introduction to it.

BobbyStein.2315:

Blaeys.3102:

I think the most recent trailer for S3 dispels any notion that raids were not a significant part of the next story arc (the introduction, in fact).

Hold that judgment until you play the episode.

Spoilers ahead

I waited. I played the new storyline completely through – and I think that is obvious that the raid was indeed the first part of this story arc – even moreso that actually expected. This is illustrated even further by the reuse of assets on the new map.

The story is very well done – as is the content itself – but it doesn’t change the fact that the kickoff for the story was given to a small subset of the population.

To add, if the raid had been designed to offer accessibility to a greater percentage, it would have essentially solved this – and it would have made the content drought much less pronounced.

You really need to reconsider this approach – and, if you absolutely refuse to make the raid more accessible, please do not tie them back to the story of the White Mantle or the next dragon. Honestly, I do not see how you can raids as part of the story telling process if they remain as they currently are.

Blaeys.3102:

BobbyStein.2315:

Blaeys.3102:

I think the most recent trailer for S3 dispels any notion that raids were not a significant part of the next story arc (the introduction, in fact).

Hold that judgment until you play the episode.

Spoilers ahead

I waited. I played the new storyline completely through – and I think that is obvious that the raid was indeed the first part of this story arc – even moreso that actually expected. This is illustrated even further by the reuse of assets on the new map.

The story is very well done – as is the content itself – but it doesn’t change the fact that the kickoff for the story was given to a small subset of the population.

To add, if the raid had been designed to offer accessibility to a greater percentage, it would have essentially solved this – and it would have made the content drought much less pronounced.

You really need to reconsider this approach – and, if you absolutely refuse to make the raid more accessible, please do not tie them back to the story of the White Mantle or the next dragon. Honestly, I do not see how you can raids as part of the story telling process if they remain as they currently are.

And it would have completely failed to do what raids were designed to do, give this game an end game it could be proud of.

I’m fine with a different storyline though, some kind of re-emergence of Abaddon or some follower of his could be entertaining (plus the lore people would lose their kitten )

Jerus.4350:

Blaeys.3102:

BobbyStein.2315:

Blaeys.3102:

I think the most recent trailer for S3 dispels any notion that raids were not a significant part of the next story arc (the introduction, in fact).

Hold that judgment until you play the episode.

Spoilers ahead

I waited. I played the new storyline completely through – and I think that is obvious that the raid was indeed the first part of this story arc – even moreso that actually expected. This is illustrated even further by the reuse of assets on the new map.

The story is very well done – as is the content itself – but it doesn’t change the fact that the kickoff for the story was given to a small subset of the population.

To add, if the raid had been designed to offer accessibility to a greater percentage, it would have essentially solved this – and it would have made the content drought much less pronounced.

You really need to reconsider this approach – and, if you absolutely refuse to make the raid more accessible, please do not tie them back to the story of the White Mantle or the next dragon. Honestly, I do not see how you can raids as part of the story telling process if they remain as they currently are.

And it would have completely failed to do what raids were designed to do, give this game an end game it could be proud of.

I’m fine with a different storyline though, some kind of re-emergence of Abaddon or some follower of his could be entertaining (plus the lore people would lose their kitten )

I’m not sure a secondary storyline would work either – especially one that the average player would love to see, like the Abaddon storyline.

If they are going to use raids as a storytelling tool, then raids needs to be more appealing – and accessible – to a larger percentage of the playerbase.

Blaeys.3102:

BobbyStein.2315:

Blaeys.3102:

I think the most recent trailer for S3 dispels any notion that raids were not a significant part of the next story arc (the introduction, in fact).

Hold that judgment until you play the episode.

Spoilers ahead

I waited. I played the new storyline completely through – and I think that is obvious that the raid was indeed the first part of this story arc – even moreso that actually expected. This is illustrated even further by the reuse of assets on the new map.

The story is very well done – as is the content itself – but it doesn’t change the fact that the kickoff for the story was given to a small subset of the population.

To add, if the raid had been designed to offer accessibility to a greater percentage, it would have essentially solved this – and it would have made the content drought much less pronounced.

You really need to reconsider this approach – and, if you absolutely refuse to make the raid more accessible, please do not tie them back to the story of the White Mantle or the next dragon. Honestly, I do not see how you can raids as part of the story telling process if they remain as they currently are.

As I’ve stated in another thread. I disagree with you. I felt like I got a ton of more story about events predating the raid, what happened during the raid etc from the scraps lying around the zone than from the raid itself.

Blaeys.3102:

Jerus.4350:

Blaeys.3102:

BobbyStein.2315:

Blaeys.3102:

I think the most recent trailer for S3 dispels any notion that raids were not a significant part of the next story arc (the introduction, in fact).

Hold that judgment until you play the episode.

Spoilers ahead

I waited. I played the new storyline completely through – and I think that is obvious that the raid was indeed the first part of this story arc – even moreso that actually expected. This is illustrated even further by the reuse of assets on the new map.

The story is very well done – as is the content itself – but it doesn’t change the fact that the kickoff for the story was given to a small subset of the population.

To add, if the raid had been designed to offer accessibility to a greater percentage, it would have essentially solved this – and it would have made the content drought much less pronounced.

You really need to reconsider this approach – and, if you absolutely refuse to make the raid more accessible, please do not tie them back to the story of the White Mantle or the next dragon. Honestly, I do not see how you can raids as part of the story telling process if they remain as they currently are.

And it would have completely failed to do what raids were designed to do, give this game an end game it could be proud of.

I’m fine with a different storyline though, some kind of re-emergence of Abaddon or some follower of his could be entertaining (plus the lore people would lose their kitten )

I’m not sure a secondary storyline would work either – especially one that the average player would love to see, like the Abaddon storyline.

If they are going to use raids as a storytelling tool, then raids needs to be more appealing – and accessible – to a larger percentage of the playerbase.

So it can’t be part of the main story, and it can’t be a different story…

Jerus.4350:

Blaeys.3102:

Jerus.4350:

Blaeys.3102:

BobbyStein.2315:

Blaeys.3102:

I think the most recent trailer for S3 dispels any notion that raids were not a significant part of the next story arc (the introduction, in fact).

Hold that judgment until you play the episode.

Spoilers ahead

I waited. I played the new storyline completely through – and I think that is obvious that the raid was indeed the first part of this story arc – even moreso that actually expected. This is illustrated even further by the reuse of assets on the new map.

The story is very well done – as is the content itself – but it doesn’t change the fact that the kickoff for the story was given to a small subset of the population.

To add, if the raid had been designed to offer accessibility to a greater percentage, it would have essentially solved this – and it would have made the content drought much less pronounced.

You really need to reconsider this approach – and, if you absolutely refuse to make the raid more accessible, please do not tie them back to the story of the White Mantle or the next dragon. Honestly, I do not see how you can raids as part of the story telling process if they remain as they currently are.

And it would have completely failed to do what raids were designed to do, give this game an end game it could be proud of.

I’m fine with a different storyline though, some kind of re-emergence of Abaddon or some follower of his could be entertaining (plus the lore people would lose their kitten )

I’m not sure a secondary storyline would work either – especially one that the average player would love to see, like the Abaddon storyline.

If they are going to use raids as a storytelling tool, then raids needs to be more appealing – and accessible – to a larger percentage of the playerbase.

So it can’t be part of the main story, and it can’t be a different story…

I do have an issue with putting story even remotely connected to the lore or the main story line in content designed to be exclusionary.

Regardless, I think the idea that this past dungeon was not the start – and an important part of the experience – of the current living story has been debunked.

It was chapter one. It began the story of our conflict with these foes and started the bloodstone storyline.

Anet needs to make sure content like that is accessible to players regardless of playstyle, gear level, builds, etc. – which they most definitely did not do in this case – and they should be held accountable for that.

Spoiler

After going through the story, and the open world zone released…I can definitively say that the main story has little bearing to the events that transpired in the Forsaken Thicket. There was effectively no link during all the dialogue that ever indicated that my involvement in the raid directly or indirectly resulted in what happened at the ending climax of the episode.

Arenanet took the route to propose that the Bloodstone ‘explosion’ was the overall outcome, not at all what we did in the Forsaken Thicket, that was simply filler.

From a lore perspective, to get the details of everything to us, there was far more details and lore intensity in this patch than any part of the raid. Scraps of paper everywhere touch base on the actual why of what happens in the raid, I would even say that the open-world zone provided more on what was happening in the raid than the raid itself.

With that all being said, there was a single instance that I took issue with, that if it is confirmed, there is a legit lore concern I want to address.

For those who don’t know, Squad Leader Bennett is in the open world zone near one of the vendors. If you talk to him he can give you a run down of the White Mantle, what he experienced in the raid, etc etc.

This is a decent lore-bomb, except for a line he mentioned that I believe directly contradicts the intent of keeping raid lore as a side-story. He mentioned that I was the one who saved him.

Think for a moment here, if this line is addressed only to those who helped save him from Matthias aka clearing Salvation Pass, that’s bad. That’s lost lore and content for non-raiders. It might be fine if it’s a generic line he throws out to everyone albeit kind of immersion breaking. But I believe it does break the lore, it just barely crosses the line and I think it needs to be addressed.

Can the devs answer whether or not this lore bit from the Squad Leader is different for raiders? This is an actual concern I want to go through.

To me, it really is more about the story experience of the players and excitement levels going into this story season.

Even the devs saw this as an issue. It’s why they made such a point of telling us that the raid story wasn’t an important part of the living story arc.

The problem is, it was. It was the first introduction to the conflict, the bloodstone (in this timeline) and main enemy. It was chapter one – no matter how much they want to tell us it wasn’t.

That is bad form – poor storytelling – and a VERY BAD precedent for the future (in my opinion, of course).

Blaeys.3102:

The problem is, it was. It was the first introduction to the conflict, the bloodstone (in this timeline) and main enemy. It was chapter one – no matter how much they want to tell us it wasn’t.

That is bad form – poor storytelling – and a VERY BAD precedent for the future (in my opinion, of course).

Incorrect.

You are under the presumption that just because the Raid has the first instance from a gameplay standpoint of White Mantle Involvement and Bloodstone that it somehow breaks the storytelling by having it being the first chapter.

This is not true.

Even before the current events as we traveled through the Silverwastes we saw small indications of the White Mantle with badges, cloth, pieces.

The current events started escalating the story of the White Mantle, they becoming more directly involved. Without even going into the raid, the Living Story episode needed to escalate it further and just before we enter Bloodstone Fen we do hear about their activity, and Almorra was able to give you a low-down before going there.

This, chronologically and from a lore perspective, should be the first instance and massive lore dump for the White Mantle. And it WAS. Without even going into the raid, you can understand everything, and the Bloodstone Fen gave you more lore than the raid ever provided.

That’s why your concern falters, the raid is a side-story that is unneeded from a lore side. It is when the results of what you do in the raid that result in different context in the open-world is where I take offense.

BobbyStein.2315:

Blaeys.3102:

I think the most recent trailer for S3 dispels any notion that raids were not a significant part of the next story arc (the introduction, in fact).

Hold that judgment until you play the episode.

After seeing the actual content, instead of only the trailer, i’d say Blaeys’ fears were completely justified. That wasn’t just a tangential connection to raids. We’re definitely talking about a significant part of the story being given to only a small, chosen minority of the players.
That’s really disappointing.

That level of sarcasm though… My favourite achievement so far.

Astralporing.1957:

BobbyStein.2315:

Blaeys.3102:

I think the most recent trailer for S3 dispels any notion that raids were not a significant part of the next story arc (the introduction, in fact).

Hold that judgment until you play the episode.

After seeing the actual content, instead of only the trailer, i’d say Blaeys’ fears were completely justified. That wasn’t just a tangential connection to raids. We’re definitely talking about a significant part of the story being given to only a small, chosen minority of the players.
That’s really disappointing.

“Only a small, chosen minority of the players” can press F near journal pages and ask for cleared instance confirmed?

One of my biggest concerns about the Raid lore was that there would have been a very clear indicator that the events in the raid actually impacted the open world content. For instance, if the raid lore was indeed part of the main story rather than a side-story, you would have heard members of your group literally talk to you about it or mention ‘So I heard you infiltrated some White Mantle Stronghold’.

There would have been more animosity from the White Mantle zealots who definitely have you KoS. “You killed Inquisitor Matthias! We will see you bleed!” Things of that nature.

By and large, if we pretended that the Raid literally did not exist and we had this Living Story episode, there would have been just about zero loss in lore. The scraps of paper we find in the open world zone that talk about some ‘Matthias’ and his experiments would just be some random NPC name-drop about White Mantle Activity further north of Verdant Brink and nothing more. We get that all the time in the game, not all stories or lore points are spoken for.

This is why for the most part they did extremely well, in fact the Living Story never even brings up the Forsaken Thicket, the events that transpired there never impacted the lore we get from not raiding.

Maybe you all need to play through it again to understand that what you talk about with concern to ‘significant part of the story behind raids’ is not true in the slightest. Literally the only thing I have justified as to breaking the lore isn’t found at all in the Living Story so far, it’s an open world NPC who may or may not change his dialogue.

That’s it. That’s the only instance, and although it is a slight 2 lines (Start of Options 3 and 4) I believe that still crosses a line that a lore snippet is locked behind Raids, because it does mention that you had a contribution in at least saving Bennett.

That’s literally it.

I can say this. The Raids are a good Sidestory to the Mainstory but absolutely not needed to understand whats going on. The Raid Story doesn’t even impact Things in the Bloodstone Fen. All you need to know is in the new Map. Finish the LS and collect the Scraps there and you’ll learn much more than you ever could in the Raid Instance. There isn’t something that you’ll miss if you don’t Raid.

What you miss is experiencing the beginning of the story – the introduction of the antagonists and primary conflict. It is bad form from a narrative perspective.

And, yes, the “Available Guardian” achievement name does seem a bit like a dev purposefully insulting a portion of their playerbase.

Blaeys.3102:

What you miss is experiencing the beginning of the story – the introduction of the antagonists and primary conflict. It is bad form from a narrative perspective.

And, yes, the “Available Guardian” achievement name does seem a bit like a dev purposefully insulting a portion of their playerbase.

I have not yet played the new story, but I do raid.

I don’t care about spoilers.

Can you tell me specifically how raids tie into the story? I see a lot of complaining from you but no specifics.

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

What you miss is experiencing the beginning of the story – the introduction of the antagonists and primary conflict. It is bad form from a narrative perspective.

And, yes, the “Available Guardian” achievement name does seem a bit like a dev purposefully insulting a portion of their playerbase.

I have not yet played the new story, but I do raid.

I don’t care about spoilers.

Can you tell me specifically how raids tie into the story? I see a lot of complaining from you but no specifics.

Spoilers -Obviously

When you play the story, its pretty obvious. Everything goes back to the bloodstone and the White Mantle siphoning its energy.

They reuse assets from the raid throughout the new zone – including using the Vale Guardian (with almost all of his mechanics) as the final fight in the meta. An NPC down in the crater talks about the significance of the raid story to what is going on now. The final reveal in the last story is directly related to what happens in the raid (even with the no spoiler tag, I’m not gonna list that one).

While I love the use of the VG in open world (they should do that with more dungeon and raid assets), it, the story steps, the bloodstone and the visual assets throughout the zone do make the claim that the raid wasn’t an important part of the story (that players would want to experience for themselves) a bit ridiculous. It was most definitely the introduction of the current story arc, including our introduction to the primary conflict and antagonists.

I know I am harping on this a bit more than feels comfortable (making it very easy for people not wanting things changed to mock me – I realize), but it really is bad from a narrative and interactive storytelling perspective. I going to stand my ground on this point. They need to keep this in mind when developing this kind of content in the future.

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

What you miss is experiencing the beginning of the story – the introduction of the antagonists and primary conflict. It is bad form from a narrative perspective.

And, yes, the “Available Guardian” achievement name does seem a bit like a dev purposefully insulting a portion of their playerbase.

I have not yet played the new story, but I do raid.

I don’t care about spoilers.

Can you tell me specifically how raids tie into the story? I see a lot of complaining from you but no specifics.

Spoilers -Obviously

When you play the story, its pretty obvious. Everything goes back to the bloodstone and the White Mantle siphoning its energy.

They reuse assets from the raid throughout the new zone – including using the Vale Guardian (with almost all of his mechanics) as the final fight in the meta. An NPC down in the crater talks about the significance of the raid story to what is going on now. The final reveal in the last story is directly related to what happens in the raid (even with the no spoiler tag, I’m not gonna list that one).

While I love the use of the VG in open world (they should do that with more dungeon and raid assets), it, the story steps, the bloodstone and the visual assets throughout the zone do make the claim that the raid wasn’t an important part of the story (that players would want to experience for themselves) a bit ridiculous. It was most definitely the introduction of the current story arc, including our introduction to the primary conflict and antagonists.

I know I am harping on this a bit more than feels comfortable (making it very easy for people not wanting things changed to mock me – I realize), but it really is bad from a narrative and interactive storytelling perspective. I going to stand my ground on this point. They need to keep this in mind when developing this kind of content in the future.

Ok, I’ll need to play it for myself to form my own opinion. But you’re not making very strong arguments here.

There’s no specifics in this answer. Simply involving the white mantle and blood stone is not specific to me. These items have been introduced before — arah, cm, and human story.

Based on your description, I have no idea what’s happening in the living story, even as a raider.

Absurdo.8309:

Based on your description, I have no idea what’s happening in the living story, even as a raider.

Basically, the events from Bloodstone Fen and living story there are a direct consequence of White Mantle activity in Forsaken Thicket.

It’s not about blood stones and white mantle in general. It’s about this specific group of white mantle, this specific bloodstone, very specific use for that bloodstone that this group had, and very specific set of events that lead directly to LS.

Usually I’m on the other side of an argument with regards to raids but in this case it’s pretty obvious that the raid story is quite important and relevant to the LS3 story.

Spoilers:

The resummoning/re-empowering of Lazarus happens in the raid. You find out that the white mantle hired bandits to kidnap people who are then sacrificed to summon Lazarus. The place where he was awakened was in the stronghold of the faithful, a huge settlement built next to the bloodstone in order to harness its energy, he was awakened by Xera and importantly Caudecus didn’t know about the re-summoning in LS3 episode 1.

One of the most climactic parts of LS3 episode 1 (Lazarus suddenly appearing when we thought he was gone and challenging Caudecus) is explained by the raid story. The recap cutscene is just simply insufficient and doesn’t explain the raid story other than the white mantle were working in the shadows.

The raid story also introduces some intriguing speculation:

Were the white mantle working under High Inquisitor Xera hiding their work from Confessor Caudecus? Had they simply hid their work or completely disobeyed orders from Caudecus? Even the name of the stronghold could have some meaning, ‘Stronghold of the Faithful’ – A faction secretly faithful to the mursaat? whereas the rest of the white mantle are simply loyal to Caudecus and his aspirations for power.

Most of this interesting speculation and knowledge is unknown if you didn’t follow the raid story which isn’t really good tbh. It’s not that the story shouldn’t have been put into the raids but it should have been explained clearly in a much more detailed video.

The Zealous Templar.3861:

Usually I’m on the other side of an argument with regards to raids but in this case it’s pretty obvious that the raid story is quite important and relevant to the LS3 story.

Spoilers:

The resummoning/re-empowering of Lazarus happens in the raid. You find out that the white mantle hired bandits to kidnap people who are then sacrificed to summon Lazarus. The place where he was awakened was in the stronghold of the faithful, a huge settlement built next to the bloodstone in order to harness its energy, he was awakened by Xera and importantly Caudecus didn’t know about the re-summoning in LS3 episode 1.

One of the most climactic parts of LS3 episode 1 (Lazarus suddenly appearing when we thought he was gone and challenging Caudecus) is explained by the raid story. The recap cutscene is just simply insufficient and doesn’t explain the raid story other than the white mantle were working in the shadows.

The raid story also introduces some intriguing speculation:

Were the white mantle working under High Inquisitor Xera hiding their work from Confessor Caudecus? Had they simply hid their work or completely disobeyed orders from Caudecus? Even the name of the stronghold could have some meaning, ‘Stronghold of the Faithful’ – A faction secretly faithful to the mursaat? whereas the rest of the white mantle are simply loyal to Caudecus and his aspirations for power.

Most of this interesting speculation and knowledge is unknown if you didn’t follow the raid story which isn’t really good tbh. It’s not that the story shouldn’t have been put into the raids but it should have been explained clearly in a much more detailed video.

While I disagree that a simple video is enough to give players the adequate story experience, I will say this is a better description than I gave – and illustrates the problem very well.

I would add that the story of the bloodstone itself began in the raid. It started with the White Mantle fiddling with bloodstone shards taken from a Bloodstone, causing it to become unstable (and eventually explode). In this living story, we are dealing with the results of that explosion – and fighting the forces we were first introduced to in the raid (which, for the record, aren’t there in a cleared instance). There is a direct narrative and causal link between the story in the raid and the living story. Everything we are doing now is a direct result of what the White Mantle were doing with those shards in the raid.

What it amounts to is that the story we are currently playing through started in the raid. It is impossible to rationalize that away.

The raid story is just a side story to the living story. It’s pretty much inconsequential to the LS. The overall story starts before the raid story did if you read the journal pages on the new map.

Blaeys.3102:

What you miss is experiencing the beginning of the story – the introduction of the antagonists and primary conflict. It is bad form from a narrative perspective.

You don’t.

The primary antagonists in the story are Caudecus and Lazarus the Dire.

The first is introduced in Human Personal Story stages and Caudecus's Manor. The second is introduced in GW1.

So the inaccessible lore that was in the raid that was said to be “side” lore is in fact part of the entire LS S3 storyline. Everything that happened in there is directly relevant and vital to the story of the LS… Okay.

…. Tell me again why making is inaccessible was a good idea?

That’s like showing Lore of the Ring in theaters, but having only a select few theaters in a few cities show the first 30 minutes.
Sure, people will argue you don’t NEED that story to know what’s going on but it IS pretty vital to understand the whole story.
I mean you have NPCs to recap the raids story in the new zone… Why didn’t you just make a clear state of the raid easily available to players in the first place!? It’s right there! lol

I don’t want this game to be like EVERY other MMO where raids have vital storyline hidden behind a gameplay type that not everyone participates in.
I mean I can’t even imagine lore/story is the go to reason to raid to begin with.

I really hope you guys learn your lesson, either within the 2-3 gap between chapters for LS S3 and having a clear state for the raid (timeline wise it’s beaten, there’s no reason not to) available for everyone at any time, as well as being smarter about the release schedules of future raids and accessibility to the story.

Again, raids are fine, totally fine,keep doing them, but don’t cut off people from plot when there is literally zero reason to do that. Delayed access is fine, completely cut off is not.

I’m even willing to pay for permanent access to a personal clear state if that helps. $5-$10 so I can’t explore it at will.

hardy.7469:

Everything that happened in there is directly relevant and vital to the story of the LS… Okay.

No, it isn’t. It’s the other way round. The raid lore is completely irrelevant. 100% irrelevant.

Everything else of your post can be neglected.

I’ve only ever been in a raid map once, after some guildies had completed it. I hardly remember what I saw there (I don’t even know which one it was). I can assure you that the LS3 story is making perfect sense without having done the raids; I don’t feel like I’ve missed anything vital.

Vinceman.4572:

hardy.7469:

Everything that happened in there is directly relevant and vital to the story of the LS… Okay.

No, it isn’t. It’s the other way round. The raid lore is completely irrelevant. 100% irrelevant.

Everything else of your post can be neglected.

Definition of relevant: closely connected or appropriate to the matter in hand.

And you say that the re-empowering of Lazarus by members of the white mantle that have likely done so against the wishes of their confessor (Caudecus) is 100% irrelevant. By all means defend having part of the main story in a raid, I’m fine with that, disagreeing on relevance however is just a tad child-ish (arguing for the sake of it) in this case tbh.

Game of Thrones Spoilers:

It’s like saying how John Snow got revived is irrelevant to the story in GoT, all that’s relevant is that he got revived. Pretty sure anybody can see that who, how and by whom he was revived is critically important, it influences many other decisions in the show, e.g why he doesn’t execute Melissandre, potential relationship with other Lord of Light followers.

The debate has strongly shifted since the beginning. The question was not to know if there would be story in the raid that is tied to the world lore, it was more to know if this story was mandatory to understand what happens in LS.
And the answer is NO.
The events of chapter 1 are independent and the circumstances are well explained. The main villain we are chasing in the story is not a villain from the raid. We actually did not know that this very character was in the position of leading this group.
And the final appearance only happens in the story, not the raid. Actually after the raid the question on the survival of this character was basically in the same state than after GW:EN. We only discovered he is alive yesterday.
We also discovered yesterday that things were not as smooth as we thought within a certain group of enemy.

To me, raid story was as promised : a spin off of the main show. If you don’t see it you still understand the main story. If you did see it you get a bit more in touch with some character because you know where they are coming from…. this is exactly what happens in the PS when you are not sylvari and meet Carys and Tegwen or when human player were so happy to meet Riot Alice in Dry Top while I had no clue of who she was.

Bobby Stein:

If you rescued Bennett in the raid and you have the corresponding achievement, he’ll say that you saved him. If you don’t have that achievement, he should simply say that he was rescued. It’s a simple acknowledgment in a couple of spots. Here’s what I mean.

Didn’t Rescue Bennett in Raid: “After I was rescued, I notified the queen about Salvation Pass. Then I regrouped with my squad and chased some White Mantle here.”

Rescued Bennett in Raid: “After you rescued me, I notified the queen about Salvation Pass. Then I regrouped with my squad and chased some White Mantle here.”

Didn’t Rescue Bennett in Raid: “I’ve been thanking Dwayna that the rescue team found me in time. If not for them, I’d be rotting in a ditch.”

Rescued Bennett in Raid: “I’ve been thanking Dwayna you busted me out of that infernal place. If not for you, I’d be rotting in a ditch.”

And that is for a simple case of boolean (achievement or not). I can’t imagine the work load if you want to take into account race/orders/PS choices …. A big amount of work for writers!

The Zealous Templar.3861:

Definition of relevant: closely connected or appropriate to the matter in hand.

And you say that the re-empowering of Lazarus by members of the white mantle that have likely done so against the wishes of their confessor (Caudecus) is 100% irrelevant. By all means defend having part of the main story in a raid, I’m fine with that, disagreeing on relevance however is just a tad child-ish (arguing for the sake of it) in this case tbh.

Fact is, you don’t miss anything if you haven’t played raids. See Ranael/Bobby above. You also don’t get any further inside information or anything else. So, there is absolutely no point in saying if you don’t raid you are excluded from the important story line or miss a thing. It’s just no true to hold such a point.
Also, it has nothing to do with a childish argumentation. If there isn’t anything to discuss I don’t need to throw in arguments.
Again, everything that had to be said was told by Bobby. If some guys want to nitpick about tiny fine details, do so. But this is a thing I can’t take seriously.

If you genuinely don’t understand living story because you haven’t played the raid, you might have a comprehension problem.

You don’t need to experience every single corner of lore in this game to understand living world. I doubt you’ve read every GW book, explored all of GW1 and 2, done every possible quest/mission/event as every race, read every page on the wiki, etc.

Stop complaining for the sake of complaining. It really shouldn’t be the end of the world that you missed out on an OPTIONAL side story that you could easily experience yourself through multiple means, or by utilizing one of the many built-in recap systems in the game.

I have no sympathy for anyone who is still complaining about this non-issue, especially after we’ve seen how easily the living story can stand on it’s own without the raid.

BobbyStein.2315:

Ranael.6423:

The debate has strongly shifted since the beginning. The question was not to know if there would be story in the raid that is tied to the world lore, it was more to know if this story was mandatory to understand what happens in LS.
And the answer is NO.
The events of chapter 1 are independent and the circumstances are well explained. The main villain we are chasing in the story is not a villain from the raid. We actually did not know that this very character was in the position of leading this group.
And the final appearance only happens in the story, not the raid. Actually after the raid the question on the survival of this character was basically in the same state than after GW:EN. We only discovered he is alive yesterday.
We also discovered yesterday that things were not as smooth as we thought within a certain group of enemy.

To me, raid story was as promised : a spin off of the main show. If you don’t see it you still understand the main story. If you did see it you get a bit more in touch with some character because you know where they are coming from…. this is exactly what happens in the PS when you are not sylvari and meet Carys and Tegwen or when human player were so happy to meet Riot Alice in Dry Top while I had no clue of who she was.

This is what I’ve been trying to say for months, but couldn’t until the LW content was released. Thank you.

Except that it isn’t just a little more. I experienced a similar thing when I started season 2. Because I missed the introduction of the group members, instead just having them show up out of nowhere, it completely ruined any emotional investment that I was supposed to have in them, and no, the recap and explanation didn’t help with that either.

The fact that it was done with the Destiny’s Edge members and the racial starting stories doesn’t make it a good thing either. How little you do see of them does weaken the attachment you get toward the ones that you didn’t play through with. The reason that the Priory/Vigil/Order mentors were so beloved in comparison was because we got to play through with them and because we gained a personal attachment to them.

There’s a world of difference in our levels of attachment toward a man that we personally met with and aided in their time of need, and someone that we just happened to come across afterwards.

Something that people don’t seem to be getting is that storytelling isn’t just about whether or not you understand what’s happening. It’s an emotional experience. I would have still perfectly understood the main story from just rushing through it, but stopping to talk to every character along the way, exhausting every piece of dialogue to get to know them as I did so heightened the emotional impact and sense of protectiveness toward them, and is what made the otherwise quite generic source of Orr one of the greatest experiences I’ve come across in a game so far.

Speaking of which… what did happen with the NPC interactions in Heart of Thorns? So few of the Heart of Thorns characters had anything to say outside of the main script.