Guild Wars 2

BobbyStein.2315:

Ranael.6423:

The debate has strongly shifted since the beginning. The question was not to know if there would be story in the raid that is tied to the world lore, it was more to know if this story was mandatory to understand what happens in LS.
And the answer is NO.
The events of chapter 1 are independent and the circumstances are well explained. The main villain we are chasing in the story is not a villain from the raid. We actually did not know that this very character was in the position of leading this group.
And the final appearance only happens in the story, not the raid. Actually after the raid the question on the survival of this character was basically in the same state than after GW:EN. We only discovered he is alive yesterday.
We also discovered yesterday that things were not as smooth as we thought within a certain group of enemy.

To me, raid story was as promised : a spin off of the main show. If you don’t see it you still understand the main story. If you did see it you get a bit more in touch with some character because you know where they are coming from…. this is exactly what happens in the PS when you are not sylvari and meet Carys and Tegwen or when human player were so happy to meet Riot Alice in Dry Top while I had no clue of who she was.

This is what I’ve been trying to say for months, but couldn’t until the LW content was released. Thank you.

I’ve said this before, but I think that you might be missing the forest for the trees on this one. You can call it a side story as many times as you want, but it doesn’t change the fact that you introduced most of the primary plotlines in the current story arc in the raid.

Excluding the majority of your players (or developing content that greatly favors a small subset) from the introduction of the antagonists and important plot points (which is exactly what happened here) is not a good way to kick off the story.

Again, I don’t think it was something you did intentionally, but the end results are pretty clear.

This was by no means a side story. Everything that takes place in Bloodstone Fen – and, for the most part, in the Living Story steps – is a direct result of what happened in the raid.

And you left a lot of players out of that experience (again, experience being the key word). It doesn’t matter how many NPCs you have recap it or how many youtube videos you post, that fact doesn’t change. It is about the player experiencing the story as the hero of the narrative. To quote the game from the first day I played a few years ago “this is my story.”

It worries me that you are still trying to defend the “side story” idea. It makes me worry that you will do this exact same thing with the next raid.

Blaeys.3102:

Everything that takes place in Bloodstone Fen – and, for the most part, in the Living Story steps – is a direct result of what happened in the raid.

Could you make a summary of episode 1 and raid story to be more precise on that please?
The reason for the Commander to go there, the explosion, the investigation, the chase of Caudecus…. nothing is a result of the raid. Should the raid not have existed, only Benett would be dead now, nothing else would have changed!
This is no direct result.

Ranael.6423:

Blaeys.3102:

Everything that takes place in Bloodstone Fen – and, for the most part, in the Living Story steps – is a direct result of what happened in the raid.

Could you make a summary of episode 1 and raid story to be more precise on that please?
The reason for the Commander to go there, the explosion, the investigation, the chase of Caudecus…. nothing is a result of the raid. Should the raid not have existed, only Benett would be dead now, nothing else would have changed!
This is no direct result.

Don’t know if you played the LS S3 story, but the reason for the explosion and the twist at the end is a direct result of the raid. Everything the White Mantle was doing in the raid is directly tied to the surprise at the end of the first S3 chapter and whatever future content tied with that.

Irregardless, whether one believes the lore/story in the raid is “vital” or not is just semantics. What really is the issue is that NO story content should be locked behind a raid.
While lore is behind things like dungeons and fractals, there’s a much larger barrier to get through raids to see story.
I don’t know why anyone would be against the idea of letting all players have easy access to any and all stories (and world maps for that matter). Whether delayed (such as giving broad access to the clear state of the raid already in the game to all players months after the raid has been released) or in tandem with the raids release.

There’s no reason not to do this, especially when such features are already in the game (said clear state).

And again, while is can be debated that it’s not “vital” is certainly helps with the context, as is it being a much easier way to fight content droughts than making all new content.
Also the raid will become dead, we all know it will when the next raid comes out, and then the overworld area of the raid just becomes a waste of space.

ANet can do what they want. I’m merely stating that I think this sort of content planning for story and map expansions is a bad idea and an inefficient use of developer resources, but in the end I can only vote with my wallet as a single person so they can do what they want, and clearly by looking at every other MMO, there’s apparently on ONE singly way to handle the release and content within raids. ANet has no ability to deal with raids in a more unique and better way, it HAS to be the way every other MMO company does it because laws of physics or something.

“Everything the White Mantle was doing in the raid is directly tied to the surprise at the end of the first S3 chapter and whatever future content tied with that.”

Yes exactly, that was their activity before the raid squad entered the raid and actions of this squad did not change the fate of it. The big guy had his own agenda.

Honestly, every single game with raid have story tied to it. The difference with other games being that you would never have killed an elder dragon solo… so they actually handle raid in a different manner. Here you kill major threat during personal stories in solo/group instance and save an NPC, who is not even a merchant, in a raid. And to say that it is not accessible is also not true because everyone can access the raid and get carried or find a finished instance… or actually train to beat it.

It is much better story telling than some parts of living world to be honest. By this I mean these things that are happening in the world and stay, or not. Who is able to witness the moment Rox found her devourer? Can any new player dig into krait lore and their prophet anymore? And what about helping Taimi to stop the tendrils invasion while there are no tendrils to be seen around waypoints?

If the raid would not have existed both from game point of view and lore point of view, nothing would be any different. They could have released the raid after LS3, things would be the same.

hardy.7469:

Ranael.6423:

Blaeys.3102:

Everything that takes place in Bloodstone Fen – and, for the most part, in the Living Story steps – is a direct result of what happened in the raid.

Could you make a summary of episode 1 and raid story to be more precise on that please?
The reason for the Commander to go there, the explosion, the investigation, the chase of Caudecus…. nothing is a result of the raid. Should the raid not have existed, only Benett would be dead now, nothing else would have changed!
This is no direct result.

Don’t know if you played the LS S3 story, but the reason for the explosion and the twist at the end is a direct result of the raid. Everything the White Mantle was doing in the raid is directly tied to the surprise at the end of the first S3 chapter and whatever future content tied with that.

Irregardless, whether one believes the lore/story in the raid is “vital” or not is just semantics. What really is the issue is that NO story content should be locked behind a raid.
While lore is behind things like dungeons and fractals, there’s a much larger barrier to get through raids to see story.
I don’t know why anyone would be against the idea of letting all players have easy access to any and all stories (and world maps for that matter). Whether delayed (such as giving broad access to the clear state of the raid already in the game to all players months after the raid has been released) or in tandem with the raids release.

There’s no reason not to do this, especially when such features are already in the game (said clear state).

And again, while is can be debated that it’s not “vital” is certainly helps with the context, as is it being a much easier way to fight content droughts than making all new content.
Also the raid will become dead, we all know it will when the next raid comes out, and then the overworld area of the raid just becomes a waste of space.

ANet can do what they want. I’m merely stating that I think this sort of content planning for story and map expansions is a bad idea and an inefficient use of developer resources, but in the end I can only vote with my wallet as a single person so they can do what they want, and clearly by looking at every other MMO, there’s apparently on ONE singly way to handle the release and content within raids. ANet has no ability to deal with raids in a more unique and better way, it HAS to be the way every other MMO company does it because laws of physics or something.

There’s always been minor story / lore elements behind hard content — see aetherpath and arah.

This debate is about degree. Your position seems a bit out of the norm.

hardy.7469:

Ranael.6423:

Blaeys.3102:

Everything that takes place in Bloodstone Fen – and, for the most part, in the Living Story steps – is a direct result of what happened in the raid.

Could you make a summary of episode 1 and raid story to be more precise on that please?
The reason for the Commander to go there, the explosion, the investigation, the chase of Caudecus…. nothing is a result of the raid. Should the raid not have existed, only Benett would be dead now, nothing else would have changed!
This is no direct result.

Don’t know if you played the LS S3 story, but the reason for the explosion and the twist at the end is a direct result of the raid. Everything the White Mantle was doing in the raid is directly tied to the surprise at the end of the first S3 chapter and whatever future content tied with that.

Irregardless, whether one believes the lore/story in the raid is “vital” or not is just semantics. What really is the issue is that NO story content should be locked behind a raid.
While lore is behind things like dungeons and fractals, there’s a much larger barrier to get through raids to see story.
I don’t know why anyone would be against the idea of letting all players have easy access to any and all stories (and world maps for that matter). Whether delayed (such as giving broad access to the clear state of the raid already in the game to all players months after the raid has been released) or in tandem with the raids release.

There’s no reason not to do this, especially when such features are already in the game (said clear state).

And again, while is can be debated that it’s not “vital” is certainly helps with the context, as is it being a much easier way to fight content droughts than making all new content.
Also the raid will become dead, we all know it will when the next raid comes out, and then the overworld area of the raid just becomes a waste of space.

ANet can do what they want. I’m merely stating that I think this sort of content planning for story and map expansions is a bad idea and an inefficient use of developer resources, but in the end I can only vote with my wallet as a single person so they can do what they want, and clearly by looking at every other MMO, there’s apparently on ONE singly way to handle the release and content within raids. ANet has no ability to deal with raids in a more unique and better way, it HAS to be the way every other MMO company does it because laws of physics or something.

So what you’re saying is that raids should just have signposts that say “boss this way” and the bosses should just be cubes named “boss”?

The raid’s story is only tangentially related to the start of LS3. You get exactly as much reliable information in the raid about what is to come as you got doing the open world current events.

Raid story is fine the way it is. It’s a side story, not necessary to know any of to understand and interact with the main plot.

It matters as much to the ingame plot of GW2 as the GW2 novels do, and is integrated to roughly the same degree. Will you now complain that you have to buy and read novels to experience the whole story? Or that you have to find a party that still plays GW1 so you can personally witness the entire prophecies storyline and war in kryta?

All three of these were brought back into the game via the Raid. Introducing the bad guy(s) is not a side story. It is not loosely associated.

It is part of the story. Even if it is done quickly and the actual story is short, it is still an important part of the story.

Looking at it after playing LS3, these were the three biggest themes/reveals in the Living Story 3 plotline – all of which a small percentage of the population were introduced to months before the rest of the players.

The raid was the introduction to Living Story 3. The developers may not have intended that to be they case. They may even have tried to keep it from happening.

But it is what it is.

And what we ended up with was, imo, unacceptable (and I’m far from the only one that feels that way).

A small group of players (most of whom probably didn’t even care about the story) came into Living Story 3 having already experienced part of the story. Now, while the rest weren’t completely in the dark or lost, they were left out of that first chapter and left with second hand recounting.

Basically, someone else got to be the hero up to that point, and then they got to come in part way through the narrative.

This was a really bad idea – and I really hope that, as the team develops raids in the future, they keep this in mind. It really is bad storytelling (the story itself is good, the way it is told is not) – and bad form.

What happened in Bloodstone Fen happened because the Confessor ordered Bloodstone Weapons and they began the Work because of it, despite also working on Lazarus.

The Mining caused a Crack on the Stone which grew in Size and the Deaths of Zhaitan and Mordremoth both accelerated the Growrate of the Crack. In short, we are also responsible for this Explosion. It happened because the White Mantle started Mining the Stone ( Mining it was also only possible for them because the Confessor ordered it ) and we killed two of the Elder Dragons.

The Raid itself has no impact on the Story itself. It doesn’t matter if we are going into the Raid. Lazarus will be alive. It is a Side Story and the LS3 would work just fine even without the Raids ever being Released, just as it does now.

You get everything you need in Bloodstone Fen and you really don’t miss out anything if you aren’t raiding.

Eponet.4829:

BobbyStein.2315:

Ranael.6423:

The debate has strongly shifted since the beginning. The question was not to know if there would be story in the raid that is tied to the world lore, it was more to know if this story was mandatory to understand what happens in LS.
And the answer is NO.
The events of chapter 1 are independent and the circumstances are well explained. The main villain we are chasing in the story is not a villain from the raid. We actually did not know that this very character was in the position of leading this group.
And the final appearance only happens in the story, not the raid. Actually after the raid the question on the survival of this character was basically in the same state than after GW:EN. We only discovered he is alive yesterday.
We also discovered yesterday that things were not as smooth as we thought within a certain group of enemy.

To me, raid story was as promised : a spin off of the main show. If you don’t see it you still understand the main story. If you did see it you get a bit more in touch with some character because you know where they are coming from…. this is exactly what happens in the PS when you are not sylvari and meet Carys and Tegwen or when human player were so happy to meet Riot Alice in Dry Top while I had no clue of who she was.

This is what I’ve been trying to say for months, but couldn’t until the LW content was released. Thank you.

Except that it isn’t just a little more. I experienced a similar thing when I started season 2. Because I missed the introduction of the group members, instead just having them show up out of nowhere, it completely ruined any emotional investment that I was supposed to have in them, and no, the recap and explanation didn’t help with that either.

The fact that it was done with the Destiny’s Edge members and the racial starting stories doesn’t make it a good thing either. How little you do see of them does weaken the attachment you get toward the ones that you didn’t play through with. The reason that the Priory/Vigil/Order mentors were so beloved in comparison was because we got to play through with them and because we gained a personal attachment to them.

There’s a world of difference in our levels of attachment toward a man that we personally met with and aided in their time of need, and someone that we just happened to come across afterwards.

Something that people don’t seem to be getting is that storytelling isn’t just about whether or not you understand what’s happening. It’s an emotional experience. I would have still perfectly understood the main story from just rushing through it, but stopping to talk to every character along the way, exhausting every piece of dialogue to get to know them as I did so heightened the emotional impact and sense of protectiveness toward them, and is what made the otherwise quite generic source of Orr one of the greatest experiences I’ve come across in a game so far.

Speaking of which… what did happen with the NPC interactions in Heart of Thorns? So few of the Heart of Thorns characters had anything to say outside of the main script.

What happened in the raid story had no bearing on the LS though which is different from not playing LS1. If you completely removed the raid from the game right now, the LS story would not be impacted. It can refer to that raid story as how the pact members got there, and even about the tests the enemies were doing, but it was just a side plot.

A good number of people feel differently. They feel left out of something important.

While I stand by the statement that the raid was most definitely tied directly to the Living Story (it was in fact the introduction), what really matters is that people are feeling excluded from experiencing (again, important word) part of the story.

And that is something that Anet should care more about, imo.

Blaeys.3102:

Ranael.6423:

So much disrespect for your fellow player… You are probably trying to compensate your lack of skill by showing that you are more intellectual than the others and that you are more interested in the story while raiders are stupid players who don’t care of the story and only fight bosses to get their loot….

No disrespect meant to raiders – seeing as I am one.

This isn’t about taking sides. I truly do see an issue here. Be careful of personal comments when you don’t know the person.

Tbh it’s clear that a lot of people arguing against you are simply thinking this is an anti-raid thread like most others. They are blinded and will not listen to even the most obvious arguments. The raid story is a direct prequel to the events of LS3. Some people like Vince claim relevance and necessity to be the same thing which is not the case.

Of course you can understand and follow LS3 without doing the raid, where the f did anyone say that you can’t. That doesn’t make the raid story irrelevant to LS3, honestly what is wrong with some people…

If Anet choose not to share the prequel plot to everyone as a conscious decision fine, it’s their game and their rules and is an enticement to do raids (which I love doing), but to say that – It’s ok guys, it’s a cracking prequel written and planned well with an enlightening twist at the end that makes you question the white mantle’s unity itself, demonstrated at the climax of the first episode of LS3, but don’t worry, it’s not absolutely necessary to the main story and you can still follow what’s going on – is the biggest cop-out I’ve heard from a gaming company.

Any story can be followed with the barebones of details. Adding flesh to these details is what gives a rich story experience. Is one cutscene (doesn’t even have to be animated, quality still-frame ones are better imo) explaining all this so much to ask? (Even I could do it ffs).

See Warhammer 40k for example, I don’t need to know the details of the Horus Heresy to follow how the Imperium of Man came about. But boy is the overall lore and story of the creation of the Imperium of Man much more exciting after reading it.

The Zealous Templar.3861:

Of course you can understand and follow LS3 without doing the raid, where the f did anyone say that you can’t. That doesn’t make the raid story irrelevant to LS3, honestly what is wrong with some people…

So… Something is relevant just because it is somehow inspired by something going on atm? The books were the prequel to the whole game, did you read them? Dungeons were highly relevant to understand what is going on with DE in the pers story, did you watch the cutscenes?
The raids are inspired by the lore of LS3, yes. That does not mean that they are really relevant. Nothing would have changed to the lore of LS3 if raids were never released. They could have just released the new map and nobody would recognice that there could have been a sidestory in Forsaken Thicket. Should they have waited with the raid just because its inspired by LS3, just because a few people would be upset about nothing? In my oppinion the answer would be a clear no.

BobbyStein.2315:

Sykper.6583:

Can the devs answer whether or not this lore bit from the Squad Leader is different for raiders? This is an actual concern I want to go through.

If you rescued Bennett in the raid and you have the corresponding achievement, he’ll say that you saved him. If you don’t have that achievement, he should simply say that he was rescued. It’s a simple acknowledgment in a couple of spots. Here’s what I mean.

Didn’t Rescue Bennett in Raid: “After I was rescued, I notified the queen about Salvation Pass. Then I regrouped with my squad and chased some White Mantle here.”

Rescued Bennett in Raid: “After you rescued me, I notified the queen about Salvation Pass. Then I regrouped with my squad and chased some White Mantle here.”

Didn’t Rescue Bennett in Raid: “I’ve been thanking Dwayna that the rescue team found me in time. If not for them, I’d be rotting in a ditch.”

Rescued Bennett in Raid: “I’ve been thanking Dwayna you busted me out of that infernal place. If not for you, I’d be rotting in a ditch.”

Thanks for this Bobby, this is more acceptable than my original assumption. If there had literally been extra dialogue rather than a few word substitution I would have been more upset. I still might be a little bit weary, but at the very least from a continuity standpoint both a non-raider and a raider will see extremely similar contexts.

I think part of the issue that needs to be addressed is that people are still working under the mentality that the lore follows the game releases. From a gameplay perspective Raiders have been fighting White Mantle in the raid for months. From a lore perspective though, the raid and then the Living Story are literally within days of one another, where the overall narrative of White Mantle, their goals, the Bloodstone and even Lazarus are definitely described better in the Open World.

What does the raid divulge? There’s bandits up to no good, that carries into White Mantle, and a few of their high ranks trying to mess with Bloodstones (things lore fans kind of take hand and hand), and finally their goal of reviving Lazarus.

…We get an unknown at the very end. There was no confirmation of what happened, we are left with uncertainty, as if our whole mission which was to originally save Bennett ended up leaving us scratching our heads. The only thing we accomplished was killing some White Mantle, and then days later the events of Living Story come out and we finally do get some true story involvement with climaxes and twists.

The raid lore is a side-story, unneeded for anyone to have a complete understanding of the Living Story.

Tornupto.2304:

The Zealous Templar.3861:

Of course you can understand and follow LS3 without doing the raid, where the f did anyone say that you can’t. That doesn’t make the raid story irrelevant to LS3, honestly what is wrong with some people…

So… Something is relevant just because it is somehow inspired by something going on atm? The books were the prequel to the whole game, did you read them? Dungeons were highly relevant to understand what is going on with DE in the pers story, did you watch the cutscenes?

No, but I wish that I had done so ahead of time. I simply didn’t realise that they existed.

Yes, I even learned to solo the dungeons’ story modes so that I could watch the cutscenes and stop to talk to the NPCs at my own pace.

Raids on the other hand are specifically designed with mechanics that make them literally impossible to solo, no matter how good you are.

Blaeys.3102:

A good number of people feel differently. They feel left out of something important.

While I stand by the statement that the raid was most definitely tied directly to the Living Story (it was in fact the introduction), what really matters is that people are feeling excluded from experiencing (again, important word) part of the story.

And that is something that Anet should care more about, imo.

No reals, only feels?

I don’t think people genuinely hold these views. I think they’re just anti-raids.

Where were the complaints that all dungeons have lore and story elements?

Where are the complaints that aetherpath, arguably the hardest dungeon in the game, directly tied into living story and hinted at living story season 2?

Where are the complaints that Arah had the bloodstone and important dragon lore?

There wasn’t any. Because these instances contained minor story elements. They contain more story than raids. You could do the current living story and not miss anything.

Even the most minimal amount of story or lore would not satisfy the anti-raiders. Your standard is a grey blob in a grey dome.

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

A good number of people feel differently. They feel left out of something important.

While I stand by the statement that the raid was most definitely tied directly to the Living Story (it was in fact the introduction), what really matters is that people are feeling excluded from experiencing (again, important word) part of the story.

And that is something that Anet should care more about, imo.

No reals, only feels?

I don’t think people genuinely hold these views. I think they’re just anti-raids.

Where were the complaints that all dungeons have lore and story elements?

Where are the complaints that aetherpath, arguably the hardest dungeon in the game, directly tied into living story and hinted at living story season 2?

Where are the complaints that Arah had the bloodstone and important dragon lore?

There wasn’t any. Because these instances contained minor story elements. They contain more story than raids. You could do the current living story and not miss anything.

Even the most minimal amount of story or lore would not satisfy the anti-raiders. Your standard is a grey blob in a grey dome.

There wasn’t any because these were all easily accessible content. Some might be more difficult than others, but you could actually get through them on your own for the major story based parts, or with literally anyone that you come across for the few dungeons that did have impassable gates.

With raids, you need a large number of people that actually know what they’re doing, which is an incredibly restrictive requirement.

Additionally, it seems that you severely underestimate the value of emotion in storytelling. The whole point behind entertainment storytelling is the emotions that it inspires within people. If you’re seriously not saying that feelings are an important part of the experience, it’s quite disappointing to see that they wasted it on someone that doesn’t appreciate it.

Missing out on the initial introduction is in fact a huge deal. In the living world season 2 story, I came across so many scenes that were almost certainly intended to be emotionally moving, but simply weren’t, because I had missed season 1. Despite basically understanding what happened in it, the fact that it wasn’t there did greatly reduce the quality of the experience of season 2 because I simply didn’t care about those characters due to the parts that I missed.

Eponet.4829:

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

A good number of people feel differently. They feel left out of something important.

While I stand by the statement that the raid was most definitely tied directly to the Living Story (it was in fact the introduction), what really matters is that people are feeling excluded from experiencing (again, important word) part of the story.

And that is something that Anet should care more about, imo.

No reals, only feels?

I don’t think people genuinely hold these views. I think they’re just anti-raids.

Where were the complaints that all dungeons have lore and story elements?

Where are the complaints that aetherpath, arguably the hardest dungeon in the game, directly tied into living story and hinted at living story season 2?

Where are the complaints that Arah had the bloodstone and important dragon lore?

There wasn’t any. Because these instances contained minor story elements. They contain more story than raids. You could do the current living story and not miss anything.

Even the most minimal amount of story or lore would not satisfy the anti-raiders. Your standard is a grey blob in a grey dome.

There wasn’t any because these were all easily accessible content. Some might be more difficult than others, but you could actually get through them on your own for the major story based parts, or with literally anyone that you come across for the few dungeons that did have impassable gates.

With raids, you need a large number of people that actually know what they’re doing, which is an incredibly restrictive requirement.

This is not true for aetherpath and arah. Both, to me, seem to be a similar difficulty as raids. You’re certainly unlikely to beat them “with literally anyone that you come across.”

Edit: and I doubt the average player could solo a regular dungeon path

I find it funny that people are calling Arah accessible content. From what I remember Pre-HoT there weren’t many doing it, and the general sense I got from people new to the zone was just dread, and a broken back for me.

Overall difficulty doesn’t seem much different other than the fact that one good player could solo Arah for you where you can easily kill your raid if you don’t know what you’re doing.

PS I miss doing Lupi normally, and especially the hardmode that is a group full of new players trying to range Lupi in phase 2/3.

Jerus.4350:

I find it funny that people are calling Arah accessible content. From what I remember Pre-HoT there weren’t many doing it, and the general sense I got from people new to the zone was just dread, and a broken back for me.

Overall difficulty doesn’t seem much different other than the fact that one good player could solo Arah for you where you can easily kill your raid if you don’t know what you’re doing.

PS I miss doing Lupi normally, and especially the hardmode that is a group full of new players trying to range Lupi in phase 2/3.

You touched on the main difference. The raid mechanics aren’t difficult individually, the difficult part is getting everyone to learn them, which unfortunately, some people aren’t able to do. This inherently excludes people that don’t want to upset others, where they could just learn to do them on their own (Speaking of which, some of the more boring dungeon bosses were a ton of fun to play solo).

Soloing dungeons isn’t something that everyone could successfully do right away, but it’s something that they could work on and experience in their own time until they did get it. With raids, 90% of it is finding the right people in a system that has so few ways to learn without causing commotion.

I’ve hosted learning runs for Vale Guardian, Gorseval, and Slothasor, and because the phases only trigger after certain health thresholds, almost every learning group doesn’t even see everything about the encounter due to simply not reaching it.

Eponet.4829:

Jerus.4350:

I find it funny that people are calling Arah accessible content. From what I remember Pre-HoT there weren’t many doing it, and the general sense I got from people new to the zone was just dread, and a broken back for me.

Overall difficulty doesn’t seem much different other than the fact that one good player could solo Arah for you where you can easily kill your raid if you don’t know what you’re doing.

PS I miss doing Lupi normally, and especially the hardmode that is a group full of new players trying to range Lupi in phase 2/3.

You touched on the main difference. The raid mechanics aren’t difficult individually, the difficult part is getting everyone to learn them, which unfortunately, some people aren’t able to do. This inherently excludes people that don’t want to upset others, where they could just learn to do them on their own (Speaking of which, some of the more boring dungeon bosses were a ton of fun to play solo).

Yup, but that means that it’s not that These raids are inaccessible, it’s that raiding in general is inaccessible to those players. In one of my old games we called raid leading “herding cats” as the hardest part is getting everyone together and on the same page, seems that hasn’t changed with less numbers and a different game.

Eponet.4829:

Jerus.4350:

I find it funny that people are calling Arah accessible content. From what I remember Pre-HoT there weren’t many doing it, and the general sense I got from people new to the zone was just dread, and a broken back for me.

Overall difficulty doesn’t seem much different other than the fact that one good player could solo Arah for you where you can easily kill your raid if you don’t know what you’re doing.

PS I miss doing Lupi normally, and especially the hardmode that is a group full of new players trying to range Lupi in phase 2/3.

You touched on the main difference. The raid mechanics aren’t difficult individually, the difficult part is getting everyone to learn them, which unfortunately, some people aren’t able to do. This inherently excludes people that don’t want to upset others, where they could just learn to do them on their own (Speaking of which, some of the more boring dungeon bosses were a ton of fun to play solo).

Soloing dungeons isn’t something that everyone could successfully do right away, but it’s something that they could work on and experience in their own time until they did get it. With raids, 90% of it is finding the right people in a system that has so few ways to learn without causing commotion.

I’ve hosted learning runs for Vale Guardian, Gorseval, and Slothasor, and because the phases only trigger after certain health thresholds, almost every learning group doesn’t even see everything about the encounter due to simply not reaching it.

So, in summary:

- You agree it’s ok to have lore/story elements behind hard, possibly inaccessible content
- Some players can’t solo dungeons, just as some players can’t beat raids (I can’t solo arah, for instance)
- There was no outcry then
- Unlike dungeons, all raid lore is in a completed instance and summarized at wing 3

Seems like people are using this issue as a proxy to hate on raids.

Absurdo.8309:

Eponet.4829:

Jerus.4350:

I find it funny that people are calling Arah accessible content. From what I remember Pre-HoT there weren’t many doing it, and the general sense I got from people new to the zone was just dread, and a broken back for me.

Overall difficulty doesn’t seem much different other than the fact that one good player could solo Arah for you where you can easily kill your raid if you don’t know what you’re doing.

PS I miss doing Lupi normally, and especially the hardmode that is a group full of new players trying to range Lupi in phase 2/3.

You touched on the main difference. The raid mechanics aren’t difficult individually, the difficult part is getting everyone to learn them, which unfortunately, some people aren’t able to do. This inherently excludes people that don’t want to upset others, where they could just learn to do them on their own (Speaking of which, some of the more boring dungeon bosses were a ton of fun to play solo).

Soloing dungeons isn’t something that everyone could successfully do right away, but it’s something that they could work on and experience in their own time until they did get it. With raids, 90% of it is finding the right people in a system that has so few ways to learn without causing commotion.

I’ve hosted learning runs for Vale Guardian, Gorseval, and Slothasor, and because the phases only trigger after certain health thresholds, almost every learning group doesn’t even see everything about the encounter due to simply not reaching it.

So, in summary:

- You agree it’s ok to have lore/story elements behind hard, possibly inaccessible content
- Some players can’t solo dungeons, just as some players can’t beat raids (I can’t solo arah, for instance)
- There was no outcry then
- Unlike dungeons, all raid lore is in a completed instance and summarized at wing 3

Seems like people are using this issue as a proxy to hate on raids.

I agree that it’s fine for it to be behind difficult content, but not behind inaccessible content. There’s a huge difference between the two. With one, you can try and try again, improving until you get it (Hence why things like the Souls series despite being difficult for most people is considered to be fair.), while the other is standing around trying to get a group that can actually manage it.

If the raids were all things like the Super Adventure Box which did have basically no impact on the story whatsoever, I’d have no issues with those. You simply see this as people complaining about raids because that’s what you choose to see. I was quite happy to pretend that they didn’t exist for months up until now, because I assumed that they were actual side stories, and that they wouldn’t be making their way into the living story at all.

Please stop assuming that people are anti-raid simply because they disagree with some elements of how raids are currently implemented.

If many of us were anti-raid, we would be call for the removal of raids. While I have seen that a few times, it is very very rare.

In truth, most of the posters I see are very much pro-raiding. They just have concerns about how it is currently implemented in the game. Wanting to see something improved (even if you disagree about how those improvements manifest) is the exact opposite of anti-raid.

I want to see more support for raids, not less.

As for the Arah/Aetherpath argument, we’ve addressed that many many times. There are huge accessibility differences between that content and how they have implemented raids, most notably the use of enrage timers. If they had implemented the raids in the same way they implemented Aetherpath (one of my FAVORITE things in the game), I would have absolutely no issues with them. I have said this every time you have brought this argument up. The comparison between raiding and that content is faulty.

So, to repeat I DO NOT HATE RAIDS. I like raiding. I want to see more people raiding.

None of that changes the argument people are putting forward in this thread, however. The current story arcs began in the raid. While that experience may not be 100% required to play and understand the game, it is still an important part of the current story experience. There are players left out of that experience that feel disenfranchised and much less enthusiastic about what we are doing now in game because of that exclusion. I know this because I hear from them daily.

So, to repeat just because someone wants to see something improved does not mean they hate that thing. In fact, the exact opposite is true. So please stop the silly argument that people hate raiding just because they want to see some changes.

Blaeys.3102:

Please stop assuming that people are anti-raid simply because they disagree with some elements of how raids are currently implemented.

If many of us were anti-raid, we would be call for the removal of raids. While I have seen that a few times, it is very very rare.

In truth, most of the posters I see are very much pro-raiding. They just have concerns about how it is currently implemented in the game. Wanting to see something improved (even if you disagree about how those improvements manifest) is the exact opposite of anti-raid.

I want to see more support for raids, not less.

As for the Arah/Aetherpath argument, we’ve addressed that many many times. There are huge accessibility differences between that content and how they have implemented raids, most notably the use of enrage timers. If they had implemented the raids in the same way they implemented Aetherpath (one of my FAVORITE things in the game), I would have absolutely no issues with them. I have said this every time you have brought this argument up. The comparison between raiding and that content is faulty.

So, to repeat I DO NOT HATE RAIDS. I like raiding. I want to see more people raiding.

None of that changes the argument people are putting forward in this thread, however. The current story arcs began in the raid. While that experience may not be 100% required to play and understand the game, it is still an important part of the current story experience. There are players left out of that experience that feel disenfranchised and much less enthusiastic about what we are doing now in game because of that exclusion. I know this because I hear from them daily.

So, to repeat just because someone wants to see something improved does not mean they hate that thing. In fact, the exact opposite is true. So please stop the silly argument that people hate raiding just because they want to see some changes.

Almost every argument I’ve seen in this thread and others is consistent with simply being anti-raid. There have been zero constructive suggestions on how to make lore more accessible. There have been zero constructive suggestions on improving the mechanics.

Here’s why the other side just seems anti-raid:

- Complaints about lore even though all of it is available in a completed instance
- Complaints about lore even though it’s summarized in wing 3.
- Complaints about living story tie in before it was released, suggesting bias
- Complaints about living story tie in even though the living story stands on its own without raids
- Complaints about story even though story has been behind hard content before
- Complaints about lore from people who were actually able to see the lore. Where are these lore unicorns?
- Suggestions to discontinue raids
- Suggestions to eliminate all lore and story flavor from raids.

Seems anti-raid to me. And zero constructive suggestions in this thread. We should probably close it.

Absurdo.8309:

Seems anti-raid to me. And zero constructive suggestions in this thread. We sould probably close it.

Again, wanting to see something improved is not the same as being against that thing. It is the opposite actually.

And, just because you disagree with suggestions does not mean they aren’t constructive or useful. It just means you disagree and that we should continue to engage in civil and healthy dialogue on that topic.

If people would stop trying to break the conversation into pro- and anti- camps and actually discuss potential compromises/solutions, this could be a very powerful discussion. No one wants the game to fail – and (almost) no one wants raids to go away. To the people that do want raids to go away, I will say it now – I disagree with that point of view adamantly. I simply see room for improvement.

If you feel there is no room to compromise or no improvements are needed, then say that and let the people willing to have that conversation do so without the constant “you’re wrong and always will be – get over it” posts. Saying that once gets your point across. Saying it after every single post you disagree with adds nothing to the conversation.

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

Please stop assuming that people are anti-raid simply because they disagree with some elements of how raids are currently implemented.

If many of us were anti-raid, we would be call for the removal of raids. While I have seen that a few times, it is very very rare.

In truth, most of the posters I see are very much pro-raiding. They just have concerns about how it is currently implemented in the game. Wanting to see something improved (even if you disagree about how those improvements manifest) is the exact opposite of anti-raid.

I want to see more support for raids, not less.

As for the Arah/Aetherpath argument, we’ve addressed that many many times. There are huge accessibility differences between that content and how they have implemented raids, most notably the use of enrage timers. If they had implemented the raids in the same way they implemented Aetherpath (one of my FAVORITE things in the game), I would have absolutely no issues with them. I have said this every time you have brought this argument up. The comparison between raiding and that content is faulty.

So, to repeat I DO NOT HATE RAIDS. I like raiding. I want to see more people raiding.

None of that changes the argument people are putting forward in this thread, however. The current story arcs began in the raid. While that experience may not be 100% required to play and understand the game, it is still an important part of the current story experience. There are players left out of that experience that feel disenfranchised and much less enthusiastic about what we are doing now in game because of that exclusion. I know this because I hear from them daily.

So, to repeat just because someone wants to see something improved does not mean they hate that thing. In fact, the exact opposite is true. So please stop the silly argument that people hate raiding just because they want to see some changes.

Almost every argument I’ve seen in this thread and others is consistent with simply being anti-raid. There have been zero constructive suggestions on how to make lore more accessible. There have been zero constructive suggestions on improving the mechanics.

Here’s why the other side just seems anti-raid:

- Complaints about lore even though all of it is available in a completed instance
- Complaints about lore even though it’s summarized in wing 3.
- Complaints about living story tie in before it was released, suggesting bias
- Complaints about living story tie in even though the living story stands on its own without raids
- Complaints about story even though story has been behind hard content before
- Complaints about lore from people who were actually able to see the lore. Where are these lore unicorns?
- Suggestions to discontinue raids
- Suggestions to eliminate all lore and story flavor from raids.

Seems anti-raid to me. And zero constructive suggestions in this thread. We should probably close it.

You’re mistaking anti-“Gating story behind raids” with anti-raids. The raid environment doesn’t add anything to the story presentation, in fact, the reliance on constantly talking about out of character aspects and groups rushing to get through it for the rewards rather than the experience only take away from it.

You also missed one of the most common suggestions way back. Make easier scaled down versions raids with no item rewards that can be completed with more reasonable groups, or even soloed if the player is good enough.

Additionally, lore is not story. How many stories have you seen where it’s simply someone with no goal walking through an area after the important events and reading about them? The closest you’ll see to that are mystery stories, which, as it turns out also have their own conflict and stakes in the current time frame. Walking through a cleared instance… doesn’t.

Absurdo.8309:

So, in summary:

- You agree it’s ok to have lore/story elements behind hard, possibly inaccessible content
- Some players can’t solo dungeons, just as some players can’t beat raids (I can’t solo arah, for instance)
- There was no outcry then
- Unlike dungeons, all raid lore is in a completed instance and summarized at wing 3

Seems like people are using this issue as a proxy to hate on raids.

Thank you for that post. Best post of the day in this forum.

How is joining a cleared instance or talking to Bennett exclusionary?

Blaeys.3102:

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The White Mantle.

Tampering with the Bloodstone.

Lazarus the Dire.

All three of these were brought back into the game via the Raid. Introducing the bad guy(s) is not a side story. It is not loosely associated.

A small group of players (most of whom probably didn’t even care about the story) came into Living Story 3 having already experienced part of the story. Now, while the rest weren’t completely in the dark or lost, they were left out of that first chapter and left with second hand recounting.

Basically, someone else got to be the hero up to that point, and then they got to come in part way through the narrative.

This was a really bad idea – and I really hope that, as the team develops raids in the future, they keep this in mind. It really is bad storytelling (the story itself is good, the way it is told is not) – and bad form.

This is factually wrong.

White mantle are in the Human personal story as well as being reintroduced in Season 2/CM.

Tampering with the bloodstone, the idea and concept appeared in GW2 long before raids. Hello Arah P4.

Lazerus the Dire, again was in GW2 already. All you had to do was visit the Durmand Priory and read.

Nothing about this story, and i do mean nothing is a new/unique nor was it a direct addition or revival due to raids. That’s not a knock on bobby or the narrative team.

Blaeys.3102:

None of that changes the argument people are putting forward in this thread, however. The current story arcs began in the raid. While that experience may not be 100% required to play and understand the game, it is still an important part of the current story experience. There are players left out of that experience that feel disenfranchised and much less enthusiastic about what we are doing now in game because of that exclusion. I know this because I hear from them daily.

My feelings exactly. I like to play games for their narratives and when I encounter inconsistency in that narrative experience it irks the hell out of me. My main is a Charr male and after the big eventbloodstone explosion opening the new zone happens he has become all of these things, despite never completing a raid wing:

1) An expert on magical thingsblood stones despite rarely encountering them in the narrative . Only mention I recall is in Arah.
2) More than passing familiarity with the big badWhite Mantle
3) Seemingly chummy with Squad Leader Bennett, an NPC I’ve never encountered before.

To me, it definitely feels like my character has done something he hasn’t and missed other things entirely.

I never did a single raid in GW2 and from that perspective I can only tell you that the new Living World story arc makes no sense to me. I know White Mantle, I know Lazarus, I know the story of Bloodstones (I played GW1) but the rest of this popped out of nowhere…

SirMoogie.9263:

My feelings exactly. I like to play games for their narratives and when I encounter inconsistency in that narrative experience it irks the hell out of me. My main is a Charr male and after the big eventbloodstone explosion opening the new zone happens he has become all of these things, despite never completing a raid wing:

1) An expert on magical thingsblood stones despite rarely encountering them in the narrative . Only mention I recall is in Arah.
2) More than passing familiarity with the big badWhite Mantle
3) Seemingly chummy with Squad Leader Bennett, an NPC I’ve never encountered before.

To me, it definitely feels like my character has done something he hasn’t and missed other things entirely.

I agree with this last sentence and especially #3 about Bennett. I don’t think there was enough time spent on his introduction in LW for characters who didn’t do the raid (or, if he is only supposed to be a very minor character, why include him at all in LW for those who didn’t do the raid). The white mantle cutscene info would have been better incorporated into the main LW story rather than having it as one random option to watch from him (in LW). The way it was done felt more like a recap of things the player had missed rather than the PC learning about the info or NPC through the story of the LW, which is what I would have liked.

Just as an FYI, things like the Bloodstones and White Mantle are canonically common knowledge, the former especially given what a Bloodstone actually is to Tyria. The White Mantle were likely lesser remembered, and I would say that Sylvari characters probably would have the least impressions from them given their short span being on Tyria.

The ‘Chummy with Bennett’ point is something I have not really considered, albeit he’s a NPC you have to meet up with during the LS episode. I would have to run through the dialogue again to see if I can’t get a different perspective from him, it’s difficult to come up with subjective viewpoints.

Sykper.6583:

Just as an FYI, things like the Bloodstones and White Mantle are canonically common knowledge, the former especially given what a Bloodstone actually is to Tyria.

The lines regarding Bloodstones I found particularly out of place were:

• “I think…. it’s hard for me to actually say, but I think a Bloodstone just exploded.” I presumed that something like this happened in the raid or was acquired knowledge in the raid, but if not it’s just jarring. I don’t recall anyone witnessing one explode before.

• When encountering members of the pact. “They’ve been consumed by bloodstone magic.” Again, I don’t recall witnessing anyone consumed by it and going mad. Another raid reference?

The lines regarding the White Mantel:

• Upon first encountering the White Mantel. “White Mantel… but they’re different.” Since this is my first time seeing them, they can’t be different.

There are a few others I found odd, but they could be interpreted as your character being really good at everything (including White Mantel history). I don’t particularly like this, but it’s a valid interpretation.

SirMoogie.9263:

The lines regarding Bloodstones I found particularly out of place were:

• “I think…. it’s hard for me to actually say, but I think a Bloodstone just exploded.” I presumed that something like this happened in the raid or was acquired knowledge in the raid, but if not it’s just jarring. I don’t recall anyone witnessing one explode before.

Or it could be that literally 5 minutes ago Taimi showed us where it is located and said that it went apekitten.

SirMoogie.9263:

Sykper.6583:

Just as an FYI, things like the Bloodstones and White Mantle are canonically common knowledge, the former especially given what a Bloodstone actually is to Tyria.

The lines regarding Bloodstones I found particularly out of place were:

• “I think…. it’s hard for me to actually say, but I think a Bloodstone just exploded.” I presumed that something like this happened in the raid or was acquired knowledge in the raid, but if not it’s just jarring. I don’t recall anyone witnessing one explode before.

• When encountering members of the pact. “They’ve been consumed by bloodstone magic.” Again, I don’t recall witnessing anyone consumed by it and going mad. Another raid reference?

Both are not really raid references. You can see Matthias going mad as he merges with a bloodstone shard, but there is no explosion or something like that. The thing with Matthias is also mentioned in the diarys laying around everywhere in bloodstone fen.

Sykper.6583:

Just as an FYI, things like the Bloodstones and White Mantle are canonically common knowledge, the former especially given what a Bloodstone actually is to Tyria. The White Mantle were likely lesser remembered, and I would say that Sylvari characters probably would have the least impressions from them given their short span being on Tyria.

Neither Sylvari, nor Asura or Norn had any contact with White Mantle (until possibly long after they were overthrown and mainly destroyed). Norn weren’t in the victinity, Asura went out of the tunnels at around the same time War in Kryta happened, but weren’t in Kryta yet, and Sylvari weren’t even born. Charr would remember them mostly as “those guys that kicked us out of kryta”, and are also the only ones besides humans whose history might include the Mursaat. Beyond them being on the “ancient races” list at least, and i believe even that wouldn’t even be a common knowledge. In GW1 Forgotten weren’t really that well remembered even by Humans (and they were supposed to be previous servitor race of the human gods), and Mursaat and Sages were definitely something only scholars might have heard about.

Bloodstones might be a more common knowledge, but again, outside humanity also mostly among scholars (and perhaps asura, as all of them seem to be at least part-time scholars when magic-related topics are concerned).

Notice, that a human generelly would not expect one to blow up, as in human history they are divine artifacts, and the magic contained within is supposed to be released only the same way it was first locked – with the blood of Doric.

(seriously, they were thrown into a volcano once, and the explosion of that volcano scattered them all over the continent without damaging them).

I don’t think it’s all that far of a stretch, it’s still all Tyria history, something that isn’t spoken about often until brought up (Hence that whole joke about ‘Human History Class’ when my Norn was asked).

Point being, the Player Characters didn’t really need to recall the White Mantle until it became relevant, their knowledge across any of the races might have been spotty at best but they only needed to recall that the White Mantle were hostile Zealots. It also helps that Almorra in game was more than willing to refresh the lore for the Commander prior to going on the airship.

The Bloodstones, or rather the Magumma Bloodstone blowing up was not an instant process. The White Mantle have been working on it for years, they managed to put a small crack in it before Zhaitan’s death (Introduction of Small Crack = Vaporized Slaves according to Justicar’s notes).

Overtime, even when Zhaitan died and his energy released the Magumma Bloodstone in canon received some of it, and began growing out of the crack, cracking it some more and forming crystals for the White Mantle to experiment with. As you said, Volcanic Explosions are potent, but the outer shell of the bloodstones were quite durable enough.

I am actually more curious about what kind of tools managed to finally break the outer shell originally of the Magumma Bloodstone, all it says in the notes you find in Bloodstone Fen is that they were increasingly annoyed by how much longer they would have to try to break the shell open until I guess the shell caved.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Or it could be that literally 5 minutes ago Taimi showed us where it is located and said that it went apekitten.

Taimi mentions activity. She doesn’t say the bloodstone is going to explode. The line is:

“The northern Bloodstone dot is flaring up. I’ll have to keep an eye on that.”

No urgency, just bemused interest. If Taimi really thought this were a possibility why wouldn’t she warn you against going? At many points in the story we get magic transfers without explosions happening, and again we’ve never seen the bloodstone as characters and if they can explode. To immediately leap to that as the explanation as opposed to the numerous possibilities in a world of magic struck me as odd.

SirMoogie.9263:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Or it could be that literally 5 minutes ago Taimi showed us where it is located and said that it went apekitten.

Taimi mentions activity. She doesn’t say the bloodstone is going to explode. The line is:

“The northern Bloodstone dot is flaring up. I’ll have to keep an eye on that.”

And shortly after that, when you go there, the exact Position where the Bloodstone is went Nuke. The logical Conclusion is, that the Bloodstone exploded, what else should explode? Caudecus’s Temper?

SirMoogie.9263:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Or it could be that literally 5 minutes ago Taimi showed us where it is located and said that it went apekitten.

Taimi mentions activity. She doesn’t say the bloodstone is going to explode. The line is:

“The northern Bloodstone dot is flaring up. I’ll have to keep an eye on that.”

No urgency, just bemused interest. If Taimi really thought this were a possibility why wouldn’t she warn you against going? At many points in the story we get magic transfers without explosions happening, and again we’ve never seen the bloodstone as characters and if they can explode. To immediately leap to that as the explanation as opposed to the numerous possibilities in a world of magic struck me as odd.

We know where bloodstone is, we know that white mantle is experimenting with it, we know that bloodstone just turned in to a “crazy magical hot spot”. 5 minutes later we see a nuke going off right where bloodstone is located. I don’t see anything odd here.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

We know where bloodstone is, we know that white mantle is experimenting with it, we know that bloodstone just turned in to a “crazy magical hot spot”. 5 minutes later we see a nuke going off right where bloodstone is located. I don’t see anything odd here.

Non-raiders do not know of these experiments before reaching the zone. All we get on the White Mantel is that they are in Magumma and Minister Caudecus escaped. As a non-raider I am voicing what I felt and it still feels, from my character’s perspective, that he is not in the loop on what’s going on.

Walhalla.5473:

The logical Conclusion is, that the Bloodstone exploded, what else should explode? Caudecus’s Temper?

For one, that the bloodstone is still intact and merely used to cast the spell. If knowledge of the bloodstones is as common as people are claiming in this thread, and it was so obvious what happened, why did Almora even bother asking what happened?

SirMoogie.9263:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

We know where bloodstone is, we know that white mantle is experimenting with it, we know that bloodstone just turned in to a “crazy magical hot spot”. 5 minutes later we see a nuke going off right where bloodstone is located. I don’t see anything odd here.

Non-raiders do not know of these experiments before reaching the zone. All we get on the White Mantel is that they are in Magumma and Minister Caudecus escaped. As a non-raider I am voicing what I felt and it still feels, from my character’s perspective, that he is not in the loop on what’s going on.

I stand corrected on that point thanks. :-)

I just want to say that although the devs did a superb job at keeping the main overall lore and side-story lore intertwined in such as way that it does not mess with the main narrative, that I really do hope they keep up this…distance between the two.

If Lazarus in the next episode makes a quote at me for being the one to indirectly interfere with his plans previously, that would be crossing a very big line.

But, I think overall this episode proved that the devs did not absolutely break the lore continuity. Keep it up and most of all, I really think this previous LS episode was one of the best episodes by far.

Assic.2746:

SirMoogie.9263:

I stand corrected on that point thanks. :-)

Canach is a walking White Mantle Encyclopedia. How can anyone not know about White Mantle plans and motives after talking with him? So, you are not correct on this one. Also raid’s story has nothing to do with the bloodstone explosion. I suggest you to read Kassandra’s Diary and two other books to learn what events caused the bloodstone to explode. “As a non-raider” you shouldn’t assume things you have no knowledge about, because you feel something is wrong with the story.

I suggest you making reserch on raid story or on any other subject before stating any arguments. Feelings are not an argument.

Feelings are absolutely an argument when discussing storytelling. The whole point of it is to inspire enjoyable feelings for the user.

The recaps are prime examples of scenes that you should not use. As has been stated previously, but that no one arguing against ever acknowledged, this isn’t about whether or not you can understand it, but whether or not it’s a good story that inspires the right feelings. When you look at it from that perspective, it really, really isn’t.

Dry, recapped lore dumps bring the pace to a screeching halt and are completely dull. It’s why fiction authors spread their exposition across large periods of time, and weave the exposition in with other events that are exciting rather than throwing an encyclopedia at you.

Additionally, Captain Bennet seems like he’s going to be a recurring character. For non-raiders, they have no reason to have any emotional investment in him. Despite that, the living story skips any introductions or interesting events surrounding him that a competent story would normally have in order to give the reader a personal connection to him, presumably because they already did that in the raid instances.

The issue isn’t that the story is impossible to understand, it’s that they just assumed that the audience had already played the raids, and designed the story around that, then threw in exposition dumps as afterthoughts for everyone else.

Eponet.4829:

The issue isn’t that the story is impossible to understand, it’s that they just assumed that the audience had already played the raids, and designed the story around that, then threw in exposition dumps as afterthoughts for everyone else.

Forsaken Thicket story:
1. Find and save Pact Squad.
2. Find and save Bennett.
3. Finish the local WM leader.

Bloodstone Fen story:
1. Pursue Caudecus.
2. Pressume that Caudecus caused the explosion and sucked up all the magic.
3. Learn that Caudecus is actually a White Mantle confessor and he’s not crazy like everyone else down there on the ground so he wasn’t affected by the explosion.
4. Lazarus appears.

Two completly different stories. They designed Bloodstone Fen the way Forsaken Thicket was designed. First you make it through the encounters then you have time to gather all the notes, read them and sum up the informations to learn what had really happened. There is a minimal amount of lore in the encounters and a ton of optional lore.

And all of sudden it is so difficult for people to understand that bloodstone explosion wasn’t caused by the events which happened in raid, it wasn’t caused by Caudecus. It was caused by a player character who killed Zhaitan and Mordremoth. It overloaded the Bloodstone, its ‘shell’ was damaged by the WM experiments which didn’t have place in raids and ultimately led to its explosion. The exlosion is a result of HoT’s story not raid’s story. There is nothing about it in raid. All the informations come from NPCs and notes in Bloodstone Fen.

And also they didn’t assume that audience already went though the raid, because Bennett has two different sets of dialogs. One for players who managed to save him and the other for players who didn’t play the raid.

It’s amazing how much people think they know.

All of this could be solved by making raids more accessible to everyone. Go back to what made this game great at launch.

That seems like a no brainer – and definitely worth the effort – to me.

Blaeys.3102:

All of this could be solved by making raids more accessible to everyone. Go back to what made this game great at launch.

That seems like a no brainer – and definitely worth the effort – to me.

Yeah, no.

It’s clear your bias is clouding any rationale here.

The lore you’re complaining about coming from raids is completely independent of LS3.

Caudecaus was a know threat to the throne and had been under watch since the personal story where he tried to assassinate Demi. This re-emerged as a plot point in s2 when he and Wi were under countess Anise’s suspicion.

The white mantle were brought up in the human story line and are cannon as far as history goes. Most races would have learned of their exploits in the 250 years since gw1….

The same thing said above can be said for Lazerus.

Besides, all of that aside the raids are already accessible. Don’t confuse accessible for being able to complete it. Those are both choices you willingly opted out of, and you cannot blame Anet for your choice there.