Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.
Raid Narrative and Lore
Reading the forums and discussing raids let me at least know who Matthias could be. If I had not and would be completely new to GW2, the notes about Matthias are a red herring and would have let me to assume that we will meet him in the next episodes.
I am reasonably pleased how this was handled and trust the word of the people here that the raid holds no important storyline. It would have been different if you actually encountered Lazarus there and defeated him. It will be an issue again if the defeat of Lazarus is done in a raid, then Anet better barricade their headquarters because people will want to lynch them.^^
The issue isn’t that the story is impossible to understand, it’s that they just assumed that the audience had already played the raids, and designed the story around that, then threw in exposition dumps as afterthoughts for everyone else.
Forsaken Thicket story:
1. Find and save Pact Squad.
2. Find and save Bennett.
3. Finish the local WM leader.Bloodstone Fen story:
1. Pursue Caudecus.
2. Pressume that Caudecus caused the explosion and sucked up all the magic.
3. Learn that Caudecus is actually a White Mantle confessor and he’s not crazy like everyone else down there on the ground so he wasn’t affected by the explosion.
4. Lazarus appears.Two completly different stories. They designed Bloodstone Fen the way Forsaken Thicket was designed. First you make it through the encounters then you have time to gather all the notes, read them and sum up the informations to learn what had really happened. There is a minimal amount of lore in the encounters and a ton of optional lore.
And all of sudden it is so difficult for people to understand that bloodstone explosion wasn’t caused by the events which happened in raid, it wasn’t caused by Caudecus. It was caused by a player character who killed Zhaitan and Mordremoth. It overloaded the Bloodstone, its ‘shell’ was damaged by the WM experiments which didn’t have place in raids and ultimately led to its explosion. The exlosion is a result of HoT’s story not raid’s story. There is nothing about it in raid. All the informations come from NPCs and notes in Bloodstone Fen.
And also they didn’t assume that audience already went though the raid, because Bennett has two different sets of dialogs. One for players who managed to save him and the other for players who didn’t play the raid.
It’s amazing how much people think they know.
I can’t help feeling that you’re being deliberately dense.
If you had read more than just the paragraph that you quoted, you’d have realised that the whole point about his inclusion being an issue is because he seems like he’s going to be a major character in the story, while the scenes that are meant to give us an attachment to him were ommited because he had already been introduced elsewhere.
Those that didn’t complete the raids have no personal connection to him, thus lowering the impact of anything involving him, thus lowering the quality of the story for them.
Having finished Spirit Vale, you’re completely underselling the impact that they have. The aesthetics of the area and dialogue of the characters give a sense of what was actually happening as you pass through, even without stopping to look for notes.
The fact that information is provided about the necessary parts isn’t in question, the issue is that the way it was presented, a sudden lore dump with zero emotional impact is the issue. If it had been told in the proper manner, the antagonists would have been introduced in the same way that we saw with Mordremoth in Season 2, where strange occurrences occur, then we go to investigate them, run into a few of their subordinates, and look through their labs, essentially, actively discovering the information ourselves rather than just reading a manual as is done with the White Mantle and Cannach.
Lazarus’ introduction was the only good instance of the raid points being covered in the Living Story, and is what they should have done with them all. Tied it into another high impact plot, delivered it in a natural way, and most importantly of all, not killed the pacing.
The White Mantle recap however, was absolutely abysmal. Imagine if say, Mistborn had started with;
“The Final Empire is a totalitarian dictatorship run by a single leader titled the lord ruler (His real name is unknown). He is credited for saving the world in the past, and now worshiped as a god. Though the lord ruler sets policy, the groups that see to the maintenance of the empire are the Steel Ministry and the aristocracy.The Aristocracy is split into many noble houses, the great houses are those that hold stronger political and economic ties than the majority of other noble houses. These great houses tend to keep residences in Luthadel (The capital city) as signs of status, even when the majority of their operations take place outside of it. The current most powerful noble House is Venture, run by its head Straff Venture. It’s sole heir Elend rarely shows an interest in the political climate and prefers to spend his time reading at parties.
The Steel Inquisition is divided into four Cantons; The Canton of Finance, the Canton of Orthodoxy, the Canton of Resources, and the Canton of Inquisition. Each of these cantons has their own function…"
If it had covered the necessary information in the same way that the recap covered the White Mantle, I would have without a doubt put it back in disgust immediately after reading the very first page, or perhaps not even having gone that far.
Sorry, what? Lazarus is a character that goes back to GW1, you don’t even see him in raids. He’s referenced, but never actually appears. So no, your assumption that raiders would have more of a ‘personal connection’ is downright wrong. I’ve never played GW1 – should I feel offended that Anet’s not handing the original Mursaat storyline to me on a platter?
Also, as a huge Mistborn (and Cosmere) fan, your analogy comparing the White Mantle recap to Mistborn is utter nonsense. For starters, you’re comparing a series of novels to an MMO. The pacing is different, the medium is different, the information dump is going to be different. You don’t do storytelling the same way in all different mediums, that’s just ridiculous.
Now let’s look at the raid story. You have:
- A mercenary squad goes into Spirit Vale, Salvation Pass and Stronghold of the Faithful to rescue Bennett, than wipe out the White Mantle holding that area.
In LS S3, you have:
- The soon-to-be former Pact Commander crashing in Bloodstone Fen after a bloodstone goes kaboom, then chasing Caudecus and encountering White Mantle (after months of random WM encounters in Tyria) and realizing that Lazarus has been brought back to life, presumably through the energy of the bloodstone that was released.
How does this really require more than just a recap to begin with from raids? You didn’t need raids to know the White Mantle were returning. You didn’t need raids to know that there was a lot of magical energy running around.
If anything, the raid and LS S3’s narratives are similar to what Brandon Sanderson himself is doing with all his novels set in the Cosmere. I’ll bring up one example – Warbreaker and the Stormlight Archive. A major character in Warbreaker shows up in the Stormlight Archive. The Mistborn series as well. In fact, all those Cosmere novels have one recurring character, which is a hint to the meta story at hand.
Should I feel offended that Brandon Sanderson is restricting the Cosmere’s story from being available through more than just hints, then? Or that I have to buy multiple books to get more of that story?
TL;DR: Your analogy is wrong and as a Mistborn fan, it’s downright offensive how wrong it is.
The issue isn’t that the story is impossible to understand, it’s that they just assumed that the audience had already played the raids, and designed the story around that, then threw in exposition dumps as afterthoughts for everyone else.
Forsaken Thicket story:
1. Find and save Pact Squad.
2. Find and save Bennett.
3. Finish the local WM leader.Bloodstone Fen story:
1. Pursue Caudecus.
2. Pressume that Caudecus caused the explosion and sucked up all the magic.
3. Learn that Caudecus is actually a White Mantle confessor and he’s not crazy like everyone else down there on the ground so he wasn’t affected by the explosion.
4. Lazarus appears.Two completly different stories. They designed Bloodstone Fen the way Forsaken Thicket was designed. First you make it through the encounters then you have time to gather all the notes, read them and sum up the informations to learn what had really happened. There is a minimal amount of lore in the encounters and a ton of optional lore.
And all of sudden it is so difficult for people to understand that bloodstone explosion wasn’t caused by the events which happened in raid, it wasn’t caused by Caudecus. It was caused by a player character who killed Zhaitan and Mordremoth. It overloaded the Bloodstone, its ‘shell’ was damaged by the WM experiments which didn’t have place in raids and ultimately led to its explosion. The exlosion is a result of HoT’s story not raid’s story. There is nothing about it in raid. All the informations come from NPCs and notes in Bloodstone Fen.
And also they didn’t assume that audience already went though the raid, because Bennett has two different sets of dialogs. One for players who managed to save him and the other for players who didn’t play the raid.
It’s amazing how much people think they know.
I can’t help feeling that you’re being deliberately dense.
If you had read more than just the paragraph that you quoted, you’d have realised that the whole point about his inclusion being an issue is because he seems like he’s going to be a major character in the story, while the scenes that are meant to give us an attachment to him were ommited because he had already been introduced elsewhere.
Those that didn’t complete the raids have no personal connection to him, thus lowering the impact of anything involving him, thus lowering the quality of the story for them.
Having finished Spirit Vale, you’re completely underselling the impact that they have. The aesthetics of the area and dialogue of the characters give a sense of what was actually happening as you pass through, even without stopping to look for notes.
The fact that information is provided about the necessary parts isn’t in question, the issue is that the way it was presented, a sudden lore dump with zero emotional impact is the issue. If it had been told in the proper manner, the antagonists would have been introduced in the same way that we saw with Mordremoth in Season 2, where strange occurrences occur, then we go to investigate them, run into a few of their subordinates, and look through their labs, essentially, actively discovering the information ourselves rather than just reading a manual as is done with the White Mantle and Cannach.
Lazarus’ introduction was the only good instance of the raid points being covered in the Living Story, and is what they should have done with them all. Tied it into another high impact plot, delivered it in a natural way, and most importantly of all, not killed the pacing.
The White Mantle recap however, was absolutely abysmal. Imagine if say, Mistborn had started with;
“The Final Empire is a totalitarian dictatorship run by a single leader titled the lord ruler (His real name is unknown). He is credited for saving the world in the past, and now worshiped as a god. Though the lord ruler sets policy, the groups that see to the maintenance of the empire are the Steel Ministry and the aristocracy.The Aristocracy is split into many noble houses, the great houses are those that hold stronger political and economic ties than the majority of other noble houses. These great houses tend to keep residences in Luthadel (The capital city) as signs of status, even when the majority of their operations take place outside of it. The current most powerful noble House is Venture, run by its head Straff Venture. It’s sole heir Elend rarely shows an interest in the political climate and prefers to spend his time reading at parties.
The Steel Inquisition is divided into four Cantons; The Canton of Finance, the Canton of Orthodoxy, the Canton of Resources, and the Canton of Inquisition. Each of these cantons has their own function…"
If it had covered the necessary information in the same way that the recap covered the White Mantle, I would have without a doubt put it back in disgust immediately after reading the very first page, or perhaps not even having gone that far.
Sorry, what? Lazarus is a character that goes back to GW1, you don’t even see him in raids. He’s referenced, but never actually appears. So no, your assumption that raiders would have more of a ‘personal connection’ is downright wrong. I’ve never played GW1 – should I feel offended that Anet’s not handing the original Mursaat storyline to me on a platter?
Also, as a huge Mistborn (and Cosmere) fan, your analogy comparing the White Mantle recap to Mistborn is utter nonsense. For starters, you’re comparing a series of novels to an MMO. The pacing is different, the medium is different, the information dump is going to be different. You don’t do storytelling the same way in all different mediums, that’s just ridiculous.
Now let’s look at the raid story. You have:
- A mercenary squad goes into Spirit Vale, Salvation Pass and Stronghold of the Faithful to rescue Bennett, than wipe out the White Mantle holding that area.
In LS S3, you have:
- The soon-to-be former Pact Commander crashing in Bloodstone Fen after a bloodstone goes kaboom, then chasing Caudecus and encountering White Mantle (after months of random WM encounters in Tyria) and realizing that Lazarus has been brought back to life, presumably through the energy of the bloodstone that was released.
How does this really require more than just a recap to begin with from raids? You didn’t need raids to know the White Mantle were returning. You didn’t need raids to know that there was a lot of magical energy running around.
If anything, the raid and LS S3’s narratives are similar to what Brandon Sanderson himself is doing with all his novels set in the Cosmere. I’ll bring up one example – Warbreaker and the Stormlight Archive. A major character in Warbreaker shows up in the Stormlight Archive. The Mistborn series as well. In fact, all those Cosmere novels have one recurring character, which is a hint to the meta story at hand.
Should I feel offended that Brandon Sanderson is restricting the Cosmere’s story from being available through more than just hints, then? Or that I have to buy multiple books to get more of that story?
TL;DR: Your analogy is wrong and as a Mistborn fan, it’s downright offensive how wrong it is.
The issue is, you’re looking at it from the events rather than the storytelling.
The big difference is, that, as he himself explained, the stories also need to hold up as good stories in their own rights. When he does bring in elements from other series as was done in some regard with Bands of Mourning, he doesn’t rely on you having read his other works, nor does he completely halt the pace of the story, creating a boring and emotionally uninteresting section purely to exposition dump those aspects like was done in the Living Story.
It’s not just novels for whom the exposition method that was used to recap the white mantle’s involvement is a sin. Movies, television shows, and even plays also try to avoid the infamous scene of two cooperative people talking in a static environment. When they are used, there’s generally something else going on, a kind of disagreement on how they perceive their relationship to one another, it’s woven in as part of another emotionally stimulating scene, something interesting is happening in the background, or it’s the peak of a romantic declaration.
As I’ve said multiple times, but that no one arguing has seemed to acknowledge, it’s not about the events and whether or not what was put in was sufficient to understand the events. It’s about whether or not the story as entertainment is weaker because of it, and it is. If you do read the recap, it kills the pacing. If you don’t, instead of proper escalation of action, you suddenly go from the White Mantle being almost complete unknowns to anyone that isn’t also a human, to them suddenly being everywhere and apparently major antagonists despite them never properly building themselves up as such, leaving the audience with almost no personal feelings towards them.
Also, in light of that, I will take back what I said regarding Lazarus. If he wasn’t a part of the raid, then they completely failed to communicate the necessary elements of the raid story in a satisfying manner. Lazarus’ introduction is in fact the sort of thing that we /should/ have seen when regarding the White Mantle, but didn’t. Presumably because they felt that since they had covered it in raids, throwing in a second hand recap would be good enough.
I can’t help feeling that you’re being deliberately dense.
Why do you have to throw in insults if the previous poster was stating facts?
Those that didn’t complete the raids have no personal connection to him, thus lowering the impact of anything involving him, thus lowering the quality of the story for them.
Here’s the thing. Your post is showing that you have absoluteley no clue what is happening in the raids. It’s just a rescue story and Benett is only there waiting for his rescue but you don’t build up any personal connection to him. The lore about raids was kept so small it’s entirely negligible.
Having finished Spirit Vale, you’re completely underselling the impact that they have.
I can tell you the impact is 0.0%.
The fact that information is provided about the necessary parts isn’t in question, the issue is that the way it was presented, a sudden lore dump with zero emotional impact is the issue.
If you don’t like the recent story you better don’t point onto raids and start blaming the LS3 devs.
The story there is as small as it can be because almost no one who is playing raids is interested in a deeper story insight. That’s how they were designed. Designed to play the bosses, designed to have a challenge. You don’t go in there for the story or a story detail. It’s like Assic wrote about Forsaken thicket story, nothing more and nothing less.Really guys, it’s comfortable and interesting to discuss with you in this forum – this is also directed to Blaeys. But you start to argue unreasonably and without proper arguments so it became more obvious it is just pure hate against the raids for whatever reasons. Bring clear facts that you are disadvantaged, not feelings or sensitivities.
It’s been irritating that the people that try to defend the implementation of the story have been missing my point, over, and over. It’s at the point where I can’t help but feel that they’re intentionally ignoring it.
Can you really say that you care just as much for someone that you randomly bumped into than you do someone that you actively went to go and save? The very fact that you did go to rescue him builds investment in the character.
The impact is not 0%. Even just passing through Spirit Vale the first time, ignoring the notes, I thought the Vale Guardian was silly, but seeing the ghosts, hearing the dialogue, and listening to Gorseval went a long way toward creating a sense of enmity toward whomever were behind it. Then, upon reaching Sabetha and hearing her dialogue, had that feeling grow due to her complete indifference. That personal connection is why the personal story doesn’t start with "These are the bad guys, go kill them in its opening arcs, but with those antagonists making an active attack on you or those close to you. After having my party crashed by bandits, I was a lot more invested in stopping them than I would have been if someone had just told me that they were doing whatever dastardly deeds and that I should go capture them.
You’re completely unreasonable when saying that feelings aren’t an important part of entertainment storytelling. The point of fantasy isn’t to be factual, those facts are only important because they are a part of the experience that inspires emotion. If facts were the only thing that mattered, stories told in bullet point format would be the pinnacle of storytelling, which they clearly aren’t.
I dislike the implementation of the raid story in the same way that I did Living Story 1 being unplayable, or the Personal Story being switched around during the NPE patch. Not because it makes the events incomprehensible, but because it makes for an overall less engaging narrative.
(edited by Eponet.4829)
you suddenly go from the White Mantle being almost complete unknowns to anyone that isn’t also a human, to them suddenly being everywhere and apparently major antagonists despite them never properly building themselves up as such, leaving the audience with almost no personal feelings towards them.
Where have you been for the last months?
The current events section has been setting WM all that time.
- Bandits and Inquest drop “Encoded Orders” with White Mantle logo on them!
- There are White Mantle propaganda posters in Kryta, which directly support Caudecus:“Minister Caudecus fights for us—get the rest of the council replaced!”, “Caudecus the Wise has gone to Divinity’s Reach to knock some sense into the council—three cheers!”
- Justiciar Bauer’s Memoirs makes it clear that Inquest have been working with the WM ever since Arah P2
- Other diaries confirm that bandits at Fort Vandal were not just a random bandits but a White Mantle agents.
- Lost Badges found in Silverwastes.
All a regular player has to do is to think a little and connect the obvious facts. I quess it is too hard to read the three avaiable diaries in Bloodstone Fen and then deduce that the actual story is wider than anyone could expect. It touches on seemingly unimportant events like Inquest making reserch on Mursaat in Arah P2.
It’s an insanely good storytelling. It makes players go to that old places like Caudecus’s Manor and Arah. It adds more meaning to those stories.
After reading your comments I clearly see that you decided not to connect any facts. Shame.
(edited by Assic.2746)
It’s been irritating that the people that try to defend the implementation of the story have been missing my point, over, and over. It’s at the point where I can’t help but feel that they’re intentionally ignoring it.
Can you really say that you care just as much for someone that you randomly bumped into than you do someone that you actively went to go and save? The very fact that you did go to rescue him builds investment in the character.
The impact is not 0%. Even just passing through Spirit Vale the first time, ignoring the notes, I thought the Vale Guardian was silly, but seeing the ghosts, hearing the dialogue, and listening to Gorseval went a long way toward creating a sense of enmity toward whomever were behind it. Then, upon reaching Sabetha and hearing her dialogue, had that feeling grow due to her complete indifference. That personal connection is why the personal story doesn’t start with "These are the bad guys, go kill them in its opening arcs, but with those antagonists making an active attack on you or those close to you. After having my party crashed by bandits, I was a lot more invested in stopping them than I would have been if someone had just told me that they were doing whatever dastardly deeds and that I should go capture them.
You’re completely unreasonable when saying that feelings aren’t an important part of entertainment storytelling. The point of fantasy isn’t to be factual, those facts are only important because they are a part of the experience that inspires emotion. If facts were the only thing that mattered, stories told in bullet point format would be the pinnacle of storytelling, which they clearly aren’t.
I dislike the implementation of the raid story in the same way that I did Living Story 1 being unplayable, or the Personal Story being switched around during the NPE patch. Not because it makes the events incomprehensible, but because it makes for an overall less engaging narrative.
I repeat myself, the story of the raid was so superficial that you don’t build up a feeling, a relationship or anything else to the given npc (Benett or others) as a casual player. If you are a lore hunter or somebody like that with such deep feelings for story etc., you belong to a very small amount of the playerbase – a very very very very very small one to be honest.
And then it’s ok to invest some time or effort to play the raids or just read the notes.
But don’t pretend that the lore is inaccessible to a broader spectrum of the playerbase. The vast majority if not almost all of the players are completely pleased about the story. They don’t need the involvement of the raid part. Sorry to say, but your thing is very special-snowflake-like.
For the average player in this game there is only one question:
Does the raid has any additional information at all or any important detail to tell players aren’t gaining throughout playing the LS3?
And this question can be answered with a pure: “No!”
Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.
(edited by Vinceman.4572)
you suddenly go from the White Mantle being almost complete unknowns to anyone that isn’t also a human, to them suddenly being everywhere and apparently major antagonists despite them never properly building themselves up as such, leaving the audience with almost no personal feelings towards them.
Where have you been for the last month?
The current events section has been setting WM all that time.
- Bandits and Inquest drop “Encoded Orders” with White Mantle logo on them!
- There are White Mantle propaganda posters in Kryta, which directly support Caudecus:“Minister Caudecus fights for us—get the rest of the council replaced!”, “Caudecus the Wise has gone to Divinity’s Reach to knock some sense into the council—three cheers!”
- Justiciar Bauer’s Memoirs makes it clear that Inquest have been working with the WM ever since Arah P2
All a regular player has to do is to think a little and connect the obvious facts. I quess it is too hard to read the three avaiable diaries in Bloodstone Fen and then deduce that the actual story is wider than anyone could expect. It touches on seemingly unimportant events like Inquest making reserch on Mursaat in Arah P2.
It makes so much sense. It’s an insanely good storytelling. It makes players go to that old places like Caudecus’s Manor and Arah. It adds more meaning to those stories.
After reading your comments I clearly see that you decided not to connect any facts. Shame.
You seem to have missed the point completely, the issue isn’t that there aren’t enough facts to properly understand the story, but that the way it is presented makes the story significantly weaker. But, even ignoring that…
For one, you actually expect people to happen to decide to go back to old areas that as far as they know, they have no reason to return to just by happenstance?
Secondly, they’re also all indirect contact, you have no personal stake in the matter, which is a very, very important difference in the levels of emotional investment. For someone who hadn’t at least gotten past Gorseval, their first reaction upon seeing the White Mantle members there would probably be closer to pity than enmity. I know that I personally have a very different level of emotional intensity toward seeing someone assault another, and just hearing that they did.
Thirdly, you can’t gather the journal until you’re already in Bloodstone Fen, which is where you find the White Mantle swarming the place.
It’s been irritating that the people that try to defend the implementation of the story have been missing my point, over, and over. It’s at the point where I can’t help but feel that they’re intentionally ignoring it.
Can you really say that you care just as much for someone that you randomly bumped into than you do someone that you actively went to go and save? The very fact that you did go to rescue him builds investment in the character.
The impact is not 0%. Even just passing through Spirit Vale the first time, ignoring the notes, I thought the Vale Guardian was silly, but seeing the ghosts, hearing the dialogue, and listening to Gorseval went a long way toward creating a sense of enmity toward whomever were behind it. Then, upon reaching Sabetha and hearing her dialogue, had that feeling grow due to her complete indifference. That personal connection is why the personal story doesn’t start with "These are the bad guys, go kill them in its opening arcs, but with those antagonists making an active attack on you or those close to you. After having my party crashed by bandits, I was a lot more invested in stopping them than I would have been if someone had just told me that they were doing whatever dastardly deeds and that I should go capture them.
You’re completely unreasonable when saying that feelings aren’t an important part of entertainment storytelling. The point of fantasy isn’t to be factual, those facts are only important because they are a part of the experience that inspires emotion. If facts were the only thing that mattered, stories told in bullet point format would be the pinnacle of storytelling, which they clearly aren’t.
I dislike the implementation of the raid story in the same way that I did Living Story 1 being unplayable, or the Personal Story being switched around during the NPE patch. Not because it makes the events incomprehensible, but because it makes for an overall less engaging narrative.
I repeat myself, the story of the raid was so superficial that you don’t build up a feeling, a relationship or anything else to the given npc (Benett or others) as a casual player. If you are a lore hunter or somebody like that with such deep feelings for story etc., you belong to a very small amount of the playerbase – a very very very very very small one to be honest.
And then it’s ok to invest some time or effort to play the raids or just read the notes.
But don’t pretend that the lore is inaccessible to a broader spectrum of the playerbase. The vast majority if not almost all of the players are completely pleased about the story. They don’t need the involvement of the raid part. Sorry to say, but your thing is very special-snowflake-like.For the average player in this game there is only one question:
Does the raid has any additional information at all or any important detail to tell players aren’t gaining throughout playing the LS3?And this question can be answered with a pure: “No!”
From what I’ve seen apathy seems to be the predominant feeling towards it, it simply wasn’t good enough to inspire strong enough emotions to even merit mentioning for most, even during the week of its release like we saw happen with the Personal Story during launch and the early parts of Heart of Thorns.
(edited by Eponet.4829)
You seem to have missed the point completely, the issue isn’t that there aren’t enough facts to properly understand the story, but that the way it is presented makes the story significantly weaker.
There are player who simply choose to be involved with the story and seek for aditional informations and those players have much more insight. And there is a second group of players which chooses to play the story missions and be done with it. For those people story will alwas seem weaker. Not because it is weak, but because they chose to only to get the basic story. At any point they can go deeper into it.
At this point it’s not the way they presented it. It’s the way you see it, because you chose not be involved.
(edited by Assic.2746)
I repeat myself, the story of the raid was so superficial that you don’t build up a feeling, a relationship or anything else to the given npc (Benett or others) as a casual player. If you are a lore hunter or somebody like that with such deep feelings for story etc., you belong to a very small amount of the playerbase – a very very very very very small one to be honest.
And then it’s ok to invest some time or effort to play the raids or just read the notes.
But don’t pretend that the lore is inaccessible to a broader spectrum of the playerbase. The vast majority if not almost all of the players are completely pleased about the story. They don’t need the involvement of the raid part. Sorry to say, but your thing is very special-snowflake-like.For the average player in this game there is only one question:
Does the raid has any additional information at all or any important detail to tell players aren’t gaining throughout playing the LS3?And this question can be answered with a pure: “No!”
Lol, if I didn’t do the raids I wouldn’t have a clue how Lazarus randomly showed up from his severely weakened state. If I did do the raids, I’d realise that the white mantle working under Xera were responsible and chose to hide the information from Caudecus, creating a fundamental split in the white mantle.
Frankly you try to display your opinions as facts when they aren’t facts and use numbers such as 0% and 100% to try and make your arguments seem intelligent, pro tip – don’t make up statistics based on your opinion, it looks very amateurish and diminishes the validity of any arguments you make.
The raid story is a direct prequel of LS3. Whether or not you think the events were important enough to be told to non-raiders is what is up for debate. The answer to that is also fully opinionated. All you are trying to do is say that their opinion is wrong and the events are not important enough and yours is right, there are no ‘facts’ in that.
Lol, if I didn’t do the raids I wouldn’t have a clue how Lazarus randomly showed up from his severely weakened state. If I did do the raids, I’d realise that the white mantle working under Xera were responsible and chose to hide the information from Caudecus, creating a fundamental split in the white mantle.
Frankly you try to display your opinions as facts when they aren’t facts and use numbers such as 0% and 100% to try and make your arguments seem intelligent, pro tip – don’t make up statistics based on your opinion, it looks very amateurish and diminishes the validity of any arguments you make.
The raid story is a direct prequel of LS3. Whether or not you think the events were important enough to be told to non-raiders is what is up for debate. The answer to that is also fully opinionated. All you are trying to do is say that their opinion is wrong and the events are not important enough and yours is right, there are no ‘facts’ in that.
You are wrong in so many different things I don’t know where to start to correct you. Seems like you haven’t even read things written by Assic and TexZero on this page 8 of the thread. Maybe you should do that before you try to argue.
I’m very confident about the usage of my numbers, maybe you try to understand first for what I was using them and rate afterwards. Sorry, but try harder!
Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.
(edited by Vinceman.4572)
The issue isn’t that the story is impossible to understand, it’s that they just assumed that the audience had already played the raids, and designed the story around that, then threw in exposition dumps as afterthoughts for everyone else.
Forsaken Thicket story:
1. Find and save Pact Squad.
2. Find and save Bennett.
3. Finish the local WM leader.Bloodstone Fen story:
1. Pursue Caudecus.
2. Pressume that Caudecus caused the explosion and sucked up all the magic.
3. Learn that Caudecus is actually a White Mantle confessor and he’s not crazy like everyone else down there on the ground so he wasn’t affected by the explosion.
4. Lazarus appears.Two completly different stories. They designed Bloodstone Fen the way Forsaken Thicket was designed. First you make it through the encounters then you have time to gather all the notes, read them and sum up the informations to learn what had really happened. There is a minimal amount of lore in the encounters and a ton of optional lore.
And all of sudden it is so difficult for people to understand that bloodstone explosion wasn’t caused by the events which happened in raid, it wasn’t caused by Caudecus. It was caused by a player character who killed Zhaitan and Mordremoth. It overloaded the Bloodstone, its ‘shell’ was damaged by the WM experiments which didn’t have place in raids and ultimately led to its explosion. The exlosion is a result of HoT’s story not raid’s story. There is nothing about it in raid. All the informations come from NPCs and notes in Bloodstone Fen.
And also they didn’t assume that audience already went though the raid, because Bennett has two different sets of dialogs. One for players who managed to save him and the other for players who didn’t play the raid.
It’s amazing how much people think they know.
I can’t help feeling that you’re being deliberately dense.
If you had read more than just the paragraph that you quoted, you’d have realised that the whole point about his inclusion being an issue is because he seems like he’s going to be a major character in the story, while the scenes that are meant to give us an attachment to him were ommited because he had already been introduced elsewhere.
Those that didn’t complete the raids have no personal connection to him, thus lowering the impact of anything involving him, thus lowering the quality of the story for them.
Having finished Spirit Vale, you’re completely underselling the impact that they have. The aesthetics of the area and dialogue of the characters give a sense of what was actually happening as you pass through, even without stopping to look for notes.
The fact that information is provided about the necessary parts isn’t in question, the issue is that the way it was presented, a sudden lore dump with zero emotional impact is the issue. If it had been told in the proper manner, the antagonists would have been introduced in the same way that we saw with Mordremoth in Season 2, where strange occurrences occur, then we go to investigate them, run into a few of their subordinates, and look through their labs, essentially, actively discovering the information ourselves rather than just reading a manual as is done with the White Mantle and Cannach.
Lazarus’ introduction was the only good instance of the raid points being covered in the Living Story, and is what they should have done with them all. Tied it into another high impact plot, delivered it in a natural way, and most importantly of all, not killed the pacing.
The White Mantle recap however, was absolutely abysmal. Imagine if say, Mistborn had started with;
“The Final Empire is a totalitarian dictatorship run by a single leader titled the lord ruler (His real name is unknown). He is credited for saving the world in the past, and now worshiped as a god. Though the lord ruler sets policy, the groups that see to the maintenance of the empire are the Steel Ministry and the aristocracy.The Aristocracy is split into many noble houses, the great houses are those that hold stronger political and economic ties than the majority of other noble houses. These great houses tend to keep residences in Luthadel (The capital city) as signs of status, even when the majority of their operations take place outside of it. The current most powerful noble House is Venture, run by its head Straff Venture. It’s sole heir Elend rarely shows an interest in the political climate and prefers to spend his time reading at parties.
The Steel Inquisition is divided into four Cantons; The Canton of Finance, the Canton of Orthodoxy, the Canton of Resources, and the Canton of Inquisition. Each of these cantons has their own function…"
If it had covered the necessary information in the same way that the recap covered the White Mantle, I would have without a doubt put it back in disgust immediately after reading the very first page, or perhaps not even having gone that far.
Sorry, what? Lazarus is a character that goes back to GW1, you don’t even see him in raids. He’s referenced, but never actually appears. So no, your assumption that raiders would have more of a ‘personal connection’ is downright wrong. I’ve never played GW1 – should I feel offended that Anet’s not handing the original Mursaat storyline to me on a platter?
Also, as a huge Mistborn (and Cosmere) fan, your analogy comparing the White Mantle recap to Mistborn is utter nonsense. For starters, you’re comparing a series of novels to an MMO. The pacing is different, the medium is different, the information dump is going to be different. You don’t do storytelling the same way in all different mediums, that’s just ridiculous.
Now let’s look at the raid story. You have:
- A mercenary squad goes into Spirit Vale, Salvation Pass and Stronghold of the Faithful to rescue Bennett, than wipe out the White Mantle holding that area.
In LS S3, you have:
- The soon-to-be former Pact Commander crashing in Bloodstone Fen after a bloodstone goes kaboom, then chasing Caudecus and encountering White Mantle (after months of random WM encounters in Tyria) and realizing that Lazarus has been brought back to life, presumably through the energy of the bloodstone that was released.
How does this really require more than just a recap to begin with from raids? You didn’t need raids to know the White Mantle were returning. You didn’t need raids to know that there was a lot of magical energy running around.
If anything, the raid and LS S3’s narratives are similar to what Brandon Sanderson himself is doing with all his novels set in the Cosmere. I’ll bring up one example – Warbreaker and the Stormlight Archive. A major character in Warbreaker shows up in the Stormlight Archive. The Mistborn series as well. In fact, all those Cosmere novels have one recurring character, which is a hint to the meta story at hand.
Should I feel offended that Brandon Sanderson is restricting the Cosmere’s story from being available through more than just hints, then? Or that I have to buy multiple books to get more of that story?
TL;DR: Your analogy is wrong and as a Mistborn fan, it’s downright offensive how wrong it is.
The issue is, you’re looking at it from the events rather than the storytelling.
The big difference is, that, as he himself explained, the stories also need to hold up as good stories in their own rights. When he does bring in elements from other series as was done in some regard with Bands of Mourning, he doesn’t rely on you having read his other works, nor does he completely halt the pace of the story, creating a boring and emotionally uninteresting section purely to exposition dump those aspects like was done in the Living Story.
It’s not just novels for whom the exposition method that was used to recap the white mantle’s involvement is a sin. Movies, television shows, and even plays also try to avoid the infamous scene of two cooperative people talking in a static environment. When they are used, there’s generally something else going on, a kind of disagreement on how they perceive their relationship to one another, it’s woven in as part of another emotionally stimulating scene, something interesting is happening in the background, or it’s the peak of a romantic declaration.
As I’ve said multiple times, but that no one arguing has seemed to acknowledge, it’s not about the events and whether or not what was put in was sufficient to understand the events. It’s about whether or not the story as entertainment is weaker because of it, and it is. If you do read the recap, it kills the pacing. If you don’t, instead of proper escalation of action, you suddenly go from the White Mantle being almost complete unknowns to anyone that isn’t also a human, to them suddenly being everywhere and apparently major antagonists despite them never properly building themselves up as such, leaving the audience with almost no personal feelings towards them.
Also, in light of that, I will take back what I said regarding Lazarus. If he wasn’t a part of the raid, then they completely failed to communicate the necessary elements of the raid story in a satisfying manner. Lazarus’ introduction is in fact the sort of thing that we /should/ have seen when regarding the White Mantle, but didn’t. Presumably because they felt that since they had covered it in raids, throwing in a second hand recap would be good enough.
That’s really just your opinion. For an MMO where I’d rather be doing things, than wondering about the lore consequences, the recap was done well enough. The Mistborn series has tons of scenes where one character or another would just stop to explain stuff that was happening; I can name several examples. However, in all honesty I wish you’d stop comparing the Cosmere novels to GW2 – nobody will understand your arguments because they haven’t read the material, and the only thing it’s useful for is making you seem intellectual, which given how you butchered your analogy… well. Use something people will actually get if you want a proper response.
Also, the prologue open-world events very clearly showed the return of the White Mantle, they’re not just a threat that sprung out from nowhere. The ‘personal feelings’ complaint bears no weight either; I’ve done all three wings and I don’t feel anything special about LS S3.
As for Lazarus – again, just your opinion, and it’s so, so wrong. It was never ‘covered in raids’, there was only a recap of the mursaat’s invasion 200 years ago, plus some throwaway comments which literally could have been removed and would make no difference. Again, should I complain because Anet gave me a recap of 200 years ago and not something properly fleshed out? No one, raider or not, got anything beyond hints about the mursaat.
Your argument would be a lot more entertaining, if it weren’t so flawed in the first place.
This argument is hilarious.
I finally finished living story today, and there is almost 0 connection between raid story and living world story.
The argument seems so weak, that, in my mind, whoever makes the arguments seems disingenuous and anti-raid.
This argument is hilarious.
I finally finished living story today, and there is almost 0 connection between raid story and living world story.
The argument seems so weak, that, in my mind, whoever makes the arguments seems disingenuous and anti-raid.
Please avoid making statements about the people posting. It really only serves to stifle the conversation and browbeat people into not expressing their opinions.
Again, believing that something needs changed or improved does not mean people are completely against that thing. In fact, I don’t think many would be as adamant or concerned if they didn’t care about raids.
It isn’t raiders versus non (or anti-) raiders. It’s more nuanced than that. Most sides (and there are definitely more than 2) have brought up some good points. Let’s debate those points on the merits of arguments – not by trying to make it about the people posting personally. That really is counterproductive.
This argument is hilarious.
I finally finished living story today, and there is almost 0 connection between raid story and living world story.
The argument seems so weak, that, in my mind, whoever makes the arguments seems disingenuous and anti-raid.
Please avoid making statements about the people posting. It really only serves to stifle the conversation and browbeat people into not expressing their opinions.
Again, believing that something needs changed or improved does not mean people are completely against that thing. In fact, I don’t think many would be as adamant or concerned if they didn’t care about raids.
It isn’t raiders versus non (or anti-) raiders. It’s more nuanced than that. Most sides (and there are definitely more than 2) have brought up some good points. Let’s debate those points on the merits of arguments – not by trying to make it about the people posting personally. That really is counterproductive.
After playing through the living story, its extremely difficult to take your argument seriously.
The only connection is white mantle overtones in raids, and one npc. That’s it.
And, again, not one constructive post in this thread how to make the raid story more accessible. They already put all the lore in a competed instance, and have a summary at wing 3. Seems like they did a good job to me.
All I’ve seen are anti-raid complaints. Please close this thread.
All I’ve seen are anti-raid complaints.
And, once again, this isn’t about anyone being anti-raid. I know it makes the argument easier if it is simplified, but that isn’t the case here.
I respect that you do not feel the raid ties directly to the living story. There are people who feel differently. The forums are here so that they – as well as you – can express those opinions.
After playing through the raid and the story, I see a direct continuation of the story in the Living Story Season. I – and several other posters – have outlined those connections multiple times above.
I don’t want raids to go away. I think they have a place in this game. I just do not see the current raid model as sustainable long term – and I want to bring up the points I think will fix that now. We see too many good things die due to lack of large scale player support for them. If raids are going to survive, they need better mass appeal.
As it relates to this thread, they have to be more careful about disenfranchising people from the story by leaving them out of parts of it. While you see the connections as minor or insignificant, someone who cares more about story will see it differently.
If you feel the conversation has run its course, then simply do not be a part of it any more – its existence will not hurt you in any way. But, there are those that feel a need to continue this dialogue. Respect that they are entitled to those opinions and to having their voices heard.
Not really a direct continuation of the raid story. The raid story was only a side story connected by the pact members in the camp below the airship and through the journals. All the raid story does is add a bit more depth into the experiments that the white mantle were doing and that’s it. None of it was critical to the LS3 story.
It’s not critical and it is not required, but I do believe they were both part of the same story arc. The raid was the player’s first introduction to the current conflict and what the White Mantle was actually up to.
As an example, when the Lazarus revelation came at the end, those who had experienced the raid story had a better understanding of how he came to be there – and they felt a much stronger connection to that storyline. For everyone else, it likely came out of left field – and definitely didn’t have that same level of connection.
The same is true earlier in the living story when we learn of the bloodstone explosion and its effect on NPCs – and of certain details surrounding the White Mantle.
Raiders were there first. They were given the chance (those that cared about that kind of thing) at greater immersion into the plot. And, that isn’t something that can be achieved with video or a few lines of NPC dialogue text (and definitely not with a cleared instance).
It potentially lessens the excitement for non raiders and makes them feel disenfranchised (we some examples of that in this very thread).
My point, however, is that this level of disconnect is not necessary. They need to take a more holistic approach to the PvE end game, making sure everything is there for all players to experience – and then add the challenge across multiple areas of the game through tiered difficulty levels – creating a mix of accessibility, challenge and storytelling tools that aren’t hindered by either of those things.
(edited by Blaeys.3102)
All I’ve seen are anti-raid complaints.
And, once again, this isn’t about anyone being anti-raid. I know it makes the argument easier if it is simplified, but that isn’t the case here.
I respect that you do not feel the raid ties directly to the living story. There are people who feel differently. The forums are here so that they – as well as you – can express those opinions.
After playing through the raid and the story, I see a direct continuation of the story in the Living Story Season. I – and several other posters – have outlined those connections multiple times above.
I don’t want raids to go away. I think they have a place in this game. I just do not see the current raid model as sustainable long term – and I want to bring up the points I think will fix that now. We see too many good things die due to lack of large scale player support for them. If raids are going to survive, they need better mass appeal.
As it relates to this thread, they have to be more careful about disenfranchising people from the story by leaving them out of parts of it. While you see the connections as minor or insignificant, someone who cares more about story will see it differently.
If you feel the conversation has run its course, then simply do not be a part of it any more – its existence will not hurt you in any way. But, there are those that feel a need to continue this dialogue. Respect that they are entitled to those opinions and to having their voices heard.
Some spoilers ahead.
Lately, all I’ve seen is “let’s have a discussion.” But, really, there hasn’t been a discussion for several pages.
Zero constructive posts. I actually think anet did a good job in making the story accessible. But, there’s only posts about complaining and how important the discussion is.
Very few explanations on what the actual problem is. Prior to today, only vague assertions about the white mantle. I actually didn’t even know Lazarus was mentioned in raids. I looked it up on the wiki. The reference comes from the completed instance after the final boss. Seems accessible to me.
And that’s ignoring all the other white mantle activity in open world recently.
And, as someone who knows almost 0 gw1 lore, I don’t even know who Lazarus is. But I expect anet will explain in future episodes. I don’t need to play gw1 to have the “holistic” experience.
So, yes, this argument seems so incredibly weak, that the simplest conclusion is the people making it are just anti-raid.
If someone actually cared about lore, they would have set out to beat the raid, or ask someone to open a completed instance.
It’s not critical and it is not required, but I do believe they were both part of the same story arc. The raid was the player’s first introduction to the current conflict and what the White Mantle was actually up to.
As an example, when the Lazarus revelation came at the end, those who had experienced the raid story had a better understanding of how he came to be there – and they felt a much stronger connection to that storyline. For everyone else, it likely came out of left field – and definitely didn’t have that same level of connection.
The same is true earlier in the living story when we learn of the bloodstone explosion and its effect on NPCs – and of certain details surrounding the White Mantle.
Raiders were there first. They were given the chance (those that cared about that kind of thing) at greater immersion into the plot. And, that isn’t something that can be achieved with video or a few lines of NPC dialogue text (and definitely not with a cleared instance).
It potentially lessens the excitement for non raiders and makes them feel disenfranchised (we some examples of that in this very thread).
My point, however, is that this level of disconnect is not necessary. They need to take a more holistic approach to the PvE end game, making sure everything is there for all players to experience – and then add the challenge across multiple areas of the game through tiered difficulty levels – creating a mix of accessibility, challenge and storytelling tools that aren’t hindered by either of those things.
You’re making the raid story out to be more than it really is.
It’s not critical and it is not required, but I do believe they were both part of the same story arc. The raid was the player’s first introduction to the current conflict and what the White Mantle was actually up to.
As an example, when the Lazarus revelation came at the end, those who had experienced the raid story had a better understanding of how he came to be there – and they felt a much stronger connection to that storyline. For everyone else, it likely came out of left field – and definitely didn’t have that same level of connection.
The same is true earlier in the living story when we learn of the bloodstone explosion and its effect on NPCs – and of certain details surrounding the White Mantle.
Raiders were there first. They were given the chance (those that cared about that kind of thing) at greater immersion into the plot. And, that isn’t something that can be achieved with video or a few lines of NPC dialogue text (and definitely not with a cleared instance).
It potentially lessens the excitement for non raiders and makes them feel disenfranchised (we some examples of that in this very thread).
My point, however, is that this level of disconnect is not necessary. They need to take a more holistic approach to the PvE end game, making sure everything is there for all players to experience – and then add the challenge across multiple areas of the game through tiered difficulty levels – creating a mix of accessibility, challenge and storytelling tools that aren’t hindered by either of those things.
You’re making the raid story out to be more than it really is.
Agreed on this count. I didn’t feel much of anything when Lazarus was ‘introduced’ (not much of an introduction given he doesn’t even appear). Blaeys is really overstating the impact it has.
As for claims that raiders were ‘first’, well then. [SALT] were the very first in the world to kill Matthias and witness that mursaat cutscene, which was more of a recap than anything else. Should I be envious of them? The same goes to non-raiders: Why should you be envious when you can do it yourself? I won’t restate what so many people have already said, but to be simple, the ones setting the barriers are you yourself.
Raids need to be engaging with their story as well. Complaining about it just because you’re lazy/too busy to raid is pointless. I currently live in Southeast Asia, and play in an EU server. I may not get to raid much in the future either – but I’d never resent people for being able to do what I can’t.
Everyone is going to be first at something, getting bitter about it won’t change it. It’s how the world works. Adapt and learn.
Just to say but if the next raid is about Rytlock on the beach where we are with him to fight Mr Big Sandman so that he can have rest in the sun, we will still create some connection with him. We will share some intimacy with him.
If the next raid story is to fight the last blighting tree in the jungle and one of the main boss is Mordrem Malyck, there will be outcries on how few selected hardcore gamers who have no clue about the lore and only care about fights are being given some privileges regarding the story. Even if there is nothing more to say after this because it will end this arc.
Then the other possibility is to make raiders fight a giant mob with no lore, and no one will care on the long run. Actually that is one of the weakest point in Fractals for me, there is few lore in them and I sometimes loose the point of fighting in those. It is changing lately (maybe) but the story is not evolving much…
A good story which is connected to the world story is actually a good way to attract players in raid. Especially those raids where after a fight you can sneak in every corner and read some journal entries or search dead bodies. You feel you are here for something. Yet the main story, though related, is actually another bundle independent of it. I would even say that the story is more important to understand what has happened in the raid than the other around.
Just as an example, it because of the story and the journal that I realized that we, players, enriched the white mantle because the were trading bloodstone dust via bandits. When we all crafted our ascended stuff to go in Fractals or force-fed poor Mawdrey to get some shinies from it we were actually helping Caudecus to overthrow Jennah… The raid story did not made that connection although a lot of bloodstone weapon were used.
As I said earlier, the forbidden thicket is a good spin off of the main show. You may choose to watch/buy/do it to have a deeper knowledge or you can just follow the main show and still understand what is going on. Can one understand Torchwood without watching Doctor Who? Answer is yes, but if you do you have a bit more background about Captain Jack Harkness…
And I think this kind of analogy does not come out of nowhere seeing where Leah Hoyer, head of narrative of the game, is coming from. I think this is related, but maybe she would be best to share her vision on this.
How on earth are raids not accessible?
There are literally no prerequisites or hard lockouts other than simply owning the expansion. The only thing holding players back is their own choice to not raid.
If someone cares that much about experiencing the minuscule amount of irrelevant lore in the raids and they are too lazy to actually raid they can easily join a cleared instance or talk to Bennett in the new zone. Failing to do that is your own fault, not ArenaNet’s.
How on earth are raids not accessible?
There are literally no prerequisites or hard lockouts other than simply owning the expansion. The only thing holding players back is their own choice to not raid.
If someone cares that much about experiencing the minuscule amount of irrelevant lore in the raids and they are too lazy to actually raid they can easily join a cleared instance or talk to Bennett in the new zone. Failing to do that is your own fault, not ArenaNet’s.
Because they should be able to be face rolled like dungeons or something. I don’t know.
It’s not critical and it is not required, but I do believe they were both part of the same story arc. The raid was the player’s first introduction to the current conflict and what the White Mantle was actually up to.
As an example, when the Lazarus revelation came at the end, those who had experienced the raid story had a better understanding of how he came to be there – and they felt a much stronger connection to that storyline. For everyone else, it likely came out of left field – and definitely didn’t have that same level of connection.
The same is true earlier in the living story when we learn of the bloodstone explosion and its effect on NPCs – and of certain details surrounding the White Mantle.
Raiders were there first. They were given the chance (those that cared about that kind of thing) at greater immersion into the plot. And, that isn’t something that can be achieved with video or a few lines of NPC dialogue text (and definitely not with a cleared instance).
It potentially lessens the excitement for non raiders and makes them feel disenfranchised (we some examples of that in this very thread).
My point, however, is that this level of disconnect is not necessary. They need to take a more holistic approach to the PvE end game, making sure everything is there for all players to experience – and then add the challenge across multiple areas of the game through tiered difficulty levels – creating a mix of accessibility, challenge and storytelling tools that aren’t hindered by either of those things.
You’re making the raid story out to be more than it really is.
This.
Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”
I’m willing to concede that the raid story is not 100% required to enjoy the living story – and that, in my zeal, I may have stretched the topic further than I should have.
But, I do still feel that making that story more accessible to the general playerbase would have added something to the holistic story experience. While it wasn’t 100% required, it was the first introduction to the antagonists and key plot points (which were then reintroduced during the Living Story).
Not only would it have provided content during the “drought,” it would have built more anticipation and excitement for the story we just played through – and that would have been good for the game, the community and Anet.
More importantly, I think it is important that this be addressed in some small way – if only to make sure the content and story developers at Anet understand the concerns when working on future raid content.
You’re making the raid story out to be more than it really is.
You are making it less than it is.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
We are locking this thread as it has run its course.