No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.
Raid : Putting the pressure.
My proposition here is simply to remove the “timer” in favor of a bit more work on the “decay aura”.
Translation: I don’t want to dps
In short, I think that this is the perfect mechanism to gradually increase the pressure on the players instead of the sudden switch to enrage mode. I’ll just assume random value as exemple here. Let’s say that the “decay aura” do 1k damage per second to all naked (without any passive mitigation) player in range.
Translation: I want all zerk players to die a horrible death. I don’t want them to play the game.
What would it do?
Simply, it would make “passive” defence a thing.
Translation: Simply, it would make “passive” defense the only thing.
- It would make aegis or pretty much every “on block” skill less and less effective as a survival tool.
Translation: Make sure that no one else can play the game besides players who think like me.
But overall, I think it could be an healthier mechanism for build and strategy diversity than the boring “enrage mode” that every mmo use again and again.
What could be less healthy and more boring than a face tank / no skill meta, where everyone just gears up in max toughness/vitality/healing power and just tries to outlast every encounter without dodging or blocking or even using any abilities strategically? A meta where there is no chance of failure no matter how many hours you let the fight drag on, due to players being unkillable. What kind of fun would that be? There can’t be any excitement in that. This is a game. Games are supposed to be fun and exciting. What you are describing is neither of those things. I know I would not spend my money or my time on a game to just stand around waiting on bosses to eventually die of old age. Perhaps there is a reason that you see enrage timers in all of these games…because the developers are at least smart enough to realize how boring/annoying the alternative would be.
Your zerk hate is not very well disguised btw. Yet another post with an “idea” of how to make all zerk players die and not be able to enjoy the game that they also pay for. Although worded very well, this post was just as toxic as anything else on these forums…simply due to the underlying intent. You don’t see zerk players trying to come up with ways to keep you from playing the game.
They will not nor should they ever remove the timer; it is important to do a minimum level of DPS to the boss constantly to beat it.
[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!
While I think they need to keep the timer in place (heck actually shorten it), instead of the boss getting a straight up damage buff when it expires, instead something similar to this idea where it ramps up. So the 8 minute timer runs out, every X seconds, boss gets +x% damage. So the longer it takes you after the enrage timer, then the harder and harder he starts hitting.
I do think some cooler enrage mechanics would be welcome. I wouldn’t want it to be the case where you could just tank or mitigate whatever the mechanic is, though; the idea is to punish the players for taking so long by making it near-impossible to beat once it reaches that point.
[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!
snip
Well, I think you didn’t even understand a thing of what I said. This is not an idea to make “zerk” player die, this is an idea to make other option than “zerk” also viable.
A “zerk” player with proper teamplay would take less than 300 damage per tic since there will probably be perma weakness and perma prot. This is something that all base profession can whistand without any issue.
Gradually increasing the number of tic per second would put more pressure on the party allowing healing to make the difference and retaliation to become effective.
Simply put, a full dps party should be able to whistand the pressure to up to the 6-7 minute mark while a defensive team with proper teamwork should break at the 11-12 minute mark. It also mean that a balanced team with heal, tank and dps should be able to maintain themself up to the 8-10 minute mark. And for me this would be something logical that a defensive team by investing into defensive stat is able to stay alive for a longer time while a DPS team which kill thing faster also break faster.
A timer only favor a “dps” team whatever the feature you’ll put around on the encounters, a timer will alway favor “dps” over survivability. And this will only lead to the “dps” meta that a lot of people despise so much. There will be even more “gear check, kick if not DPS gear”. This mindset is unhealthy.
I do think some cooler enrage mechanics would be welcome. I wouldn’t want it to be the case where you could just tank or mitigate whatever the mechanic is, though; the idea is to punish the players for taking so long by making it near-impossible to beat once it reaches that point.
In the end with this kind of ramp up damage, there is no team that can whistand it for an unlimited amount of time, just it would actually take “skill” to be able to survive longer instead of : “how you didn’t beat the timer? sad… Byebye, try again.”
No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.
(edited by Dadnir.5038)
Lenient enrage mechanic means that skilled and well geared groups can play really sloppy and still get through.
They will not nor should they ever remove the timer; it is important to do a minimum level of DPS to the boss constantly to beat it.
Well, if as the OP suggested, the damage goes up as a function of time. There will always be a point that even the tankiest build will not be able to survive. This is essentially requiring a minimum dps.
In terms of how much dps and tankiness you need, it all depends on what that time dependent function is.
Well, if as the OP suggested, the damage goes up as a function of time. There will always be a point that even the tankiest build will not be able to survive. This is essentially requiring a minimum dps.
In terms of how much dps and tankiness you need, it all depends on what that time dependent function is.
Sure, and this manner of creative enrage timer is okay, since it’s still an enrage timer. The one thing I want to make sure is clear, though, is that it cannot be a lenient timer; enrage mechanics cannot be forgiving. Part of what I really like about the hard enrage as we have it now, though, is that everyone gets exactly X minutes to work with, and knowing that number sets the pace for the entire encounter.
[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!
Well, if as the OP suggested, the damage goes up as a function of time. There will always be a point that even the tankiest build will not be able to survive. This is essentially requiring a minimum dps.
In terms of how much dps and tankiness you need, it all depends on what that time dependent function is.
Sure, and this manner of creative enrage timer is okay, since it’s still an enrage timer. The one thing I want to make sure is clear, though, is that it cannot be a lenient timer; enrage mechanics cannot be forgiving. Part of what I really like about the hard enrage as we have it now, though, is that everyone gets exactly X minutes to work with, and knowing that number sets the pace for the entire encounter.
Yes. Basically a binary enrage timer makes it a bit easier to figure out the optimal. It is not bad given that there are still plenty of other boss mechanics to worry about. Things won’t get overly complicated this way. You solely focus on the fight itself.
With a increasing damage as a function of time, you will have a larger parameter space to explore. It would be harder to find an optimal. It might promote some variety but could also require much more careful balance to ensure the content is still challenging and fun.
You people keep asking that berzerker not be the only option.
The problem isn’t berzerker, it’s that tank gear is BAD, the returns for the cost do not measure up.
If they merge toughness with boon duration and vitality with healing power, and merge ferocity with power, you would see some more gear variety going on.
They just dilute the effects too much. The cost of not having ferocity on gear simply punishes power builds too much, because power relies on 2 other stats to scale well, while condition far to a less extent.
So a sinister build can simply go dire instead for damage heavy encounters without anywhere close the huge damage loss a power build would see if it switched to knight stats instead.
And to be honest, the ship has sailed. People have invested ~600g+ in full berzerker ascended between armor and weapons. It would be a kick in the balls if you suddenly made encounters which punished them so heavily they had to dump another 600 gold on a different stat ascended set.
(edited by Zenith.7301)
And to be honest, the ship has sailed. People have invested ~600g+ in full berzerker ascended between armor and weapons. It would be a kick in the balls if you suddenly made encounters which punished them so heavily they had to dump another 600 gold on a different stat ascended set.
Let’s still remember that we all can change stat on any ascended gear via the mystic forge for a very low cost. If you got a gear set, you’ll never need to craft another one for another stat, you can simply change them.
No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.
Let’s still remember that we all can change stat on any ascended gear via the mystic forge for a very low cost. If you got a gear set, you’ll never need to craft another one for another stat, you can simply change them.
Shame you lose all of those expensive infusions and runes if you do this.
[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!
Let’s still remember that we all can change stat on any ascended gear via the mystic forge for a very low cost. If you got a gear set, you’ll never need to craft another one for another stat, you can simply change them.
Shame you lose all of those expensive infusions and runes if you do this.
Everything have a solution… Let’s welcome the new infusion extracteur at the trading post, only 200 gem per infusion.
No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.
Let’s still remember that we all can change stat on any ascended gear via the mystic forge for a very low cost. If you got a gear set, you’ll never need to craft another one for another stat, you can simply change them.
Shame you lose all of those expensive infusions and runes if you do this.
Everything have a solution… Let’s welcome the new infusion extracteur at the trading post, only 200 gem per infusion.
…Which adds an extra ~40g cost per armor piece that you want to change stats on, to a total extra cost of 240g for your whole armor set. This is all on top of the ~10g per armor set that converting costs (depending on the stats you want to convert to). That comes out to roughly 300g to convert your ascended armor to different stats for those who have invested fully into berserker gear.
Anyway, berserker gear is never going to go away, so it’s kind of a non-issue in the first place.
[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!
I think a combination of soft enrage timers like the decay aura and hard enrage timers makes sense. The hard enrage should be there to prevent all super bunker groups from cheesing the fight – and the soft enrage should be there to prevent all super squishy zerkers from cheesing the fight as well.
A mix of the two should encourage a balance of playstyles/armor/etc and add more depth to GW2 PVE.
That would be a soft enrage and is actually quite good. In short: The longer the fight, the more damage the boss will deal.
Also this doesn’t make berserker useless. Probably the opposite. Berserkers are important because if the boss dies early, the damage won’t increase. Really simple. It should just be balanced right.
- It would make aegis or pretty much every “on block” skill less and less effective as a survival tool.
No, make sure guardians turn from still alright to barely decent/crappy, because why not. I got carried too many times by random aegis and now I want my revenge!
A mix of the two should encourage a balance of playstyles/armor/etc and add more depth to GW2 PVE.
How does equipping clerics or knights armor ADD DEPTH TO THE GAME? How does a trinity add—-nevermind, this is pointless. Phiws won’t down raids with their kittenty nomads armor and kittenty teamcomps anyway, it’s a non-issue.
If anet does it right.
(edited by deSade.9437)
- It would make aegis or pretty much every “on block” skill less and less effective as a survival tool.
No, make sure guardians turn from still alright to barely decent/crappy, because why not. I got carried too many times by random aegis and now I want my revenge!
Not wanna hurt you but the point is to shift a bit survivability from active defense to passive defense. Guardian gain a lot of value with simply the ability to give protection and retaliation. Beside, guard can trait their aegis to heal on block which make them pretty much a free aoe heal.
No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.
- It would make aegis or pretty much every “on block” skill less and less effective as a survival tool.
No, make sure guardians turn from still alright to barely decent/crappy, because why not. I got carried too many times by random aegis and now I want my revenge!
Not wanna hurt you but the point is to shift a bit survivability from active defense to passive defense. Guardian gain a lot of value with simply the ability to give protection and retaliation. Beside, guard can trait their aegis to heal on block which make them pretty much a free aoe heal.
Translation: Lets completely destroy the effectiveness/contribution of any other group…so long as it means I never have to swap out of my nomad gear! Everyone else should have to pay gold/gems to change their gear around except me!
[sarcasm]Make it happen ANET![/sarcasm]
Translation: Lets completely destroy the effectiveness/contribution of any other group…so long as it means I never have to swap out of my nomad gear! Everyone else should have to pay gold/gems to change their gear around except me!
[sarcasm]Make it happen ANET![/sarcasm]
Well, you don’t get it…
The most effective damage mitigation of the game on small hit is not the gear but protection and weakness.
Beside, I think that a full Nomad gear party would be pretty much a suicide with this kind of ramping up damage. Not to say, that I would never play in Nomad gear even in WvW. Like I said this kind of mechanism would break a zerker team in 6-7 minutes and a defensive team in 11-12 minutes. Since zerk do twice to thrice the damage of a any defensive gear, there should be no issue.
And, on the other side, ain’t it the point of a hard enrage timer? destroying any kind of group that does not play full damage? Everyone should play with a damage oriented gear because otherwise you can’t beat the timer? That’s nothing more than staying on the current PvE metagame.
No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.
- It would make aegis or pretty much every “on block” skill less and less effective as a survival tool.
No, make sure guardians turn from still alright to barely decent/crappy, because why not. I got carried too many times by random aegis and now I want my revenge!
Not wanna hurt you but the point is to shift a bit survivability from active defense to passive defense. Guardian gain a lot of value with simply the ability to give protection and retaliation. Beside, guard can trait their aegis to heal on block which make them pretty much a free aoe heal.
Why shift from active to passive defense? To encourage lazyness? Up to now, you could’ve done every type of content in full Nomads if you wanted to and sleep through it, it just would’ve taken forever. I’m really glad raids require a certain amount of DPS so that you’re forced to stay on your toes due to a certain degree of squishyness. This game is about reacting properly to attacks, not tanking them kittenmit.
And, on the other side, ain’t it the point of a hard enrage timer? destroying any kind of group that does not play full damage? Everyone should play with a damage oriented gear because otherwise you can’t beat the timer? That’s nothing more than staying on the current PvE metagame.
Actually, that’s not the case. The timer is to enforce enough DPS, not 100% DPS. A number of groups beat the first encounter in the raid during the beta while still having a celestial or knight’s or even cleric’s character (or two) in the party. Crystal has also confirmed that she’s lightened the enrage timer a little bit to give more flexibility. All of this leads to a composition requirement that should ideally be around 8 DPS classes, but doesn’t require all 10 players be pure DPS.
[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!
Why shift from active to passive defense? To encourage lazyness? Up to now, you could’ve done every type of content in full Nomads if you wanted to and sleep through it, it just would’ve taken forever. I’m really glad raids require a certain amount of DPS so that you’re forced to stay on your toes due to a certain degree of squishyness. This game is about reacting properly to attacks, not tanking them kittenmit.
I’m not saying that there should be only one source of damage nor will there be only one source of damage. What I suggest is a mechanism that make the boss more and more threatening as time pass as a passive aura on the boss while other source of damage are still there and need to be avoided or disabled. Simply put It’s a system that require the group to be able to have a minimum of tankiness as well as a minimum of dps. And why shift active defense to passive? To make healing a thing! Because healing have to be needed as a active way to sustain your party.
You do not encourage lazyness by doing this. You encourage player to provide protection, retaliation, healing, debuff your enemy, use combo for something that isn’t only fury and might. This is all but lazyness, in a sense what you advocate is a system that is even lazyer than this one.
Actually, that’s not the case. The timer is to enforce enough DPS, not 100% DPS. A number of groups beat the first encounter in the raid during the beta while still having a celestial or knight’s or even cleric’s character (or two) in the party. Crystal has also confirmed that she’s lightened the enrage timer a little bit to give more flexibility. All of this leads to a composition requirement that should ideally be around 8 DPS classes, but doesn’t require all 10 players be pure DPS.
That is not the issue, what the enrage timer lead to is simply : learn the mechanic and play full DPS because this is what will be the most optimal way to beat it. An hard timer like this will always be more forgiving for full DPS party and less forgiving for defensive or mixed party.
On this encounter that we test on the BWE3, the most optimal way to beat it was full dps since heal could be provided without the need of healing power and a shield was enough to ensure agro on the boss.
No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.
(edited by Dadnir.5038)
Why shift from active to passive defense? To encourage lazyness? Up to now, you could’ve done every type of content in full Nomads if you wanted to and sleep through it, it just would’ve taken forever. I’m really glad raids require a certain amount of DPS so that you’re forced to stay on your toes due to a certain degree of squishyness. This game is about reacting properly to attacks, not tanking them kittenmit.
I’m not saying that there should be only one source of damage nor will there be only one source of damage. What I suggest is a mechanism that make the boss more and more threatening as time pass as a passive aura on the boss while other source of damage are still there and need to be avoided or disabled. Simply put It’s a system that require the group to be able to have a minimum of tankiness as well as a minimum of dps. And why shift active defense to passive? To make healing a thing! Because healing have to be needed as a active way to sustain your party.
Well, lets start with the most important thing: There is no classic Damage/Tank/Heal trinity in this game, ANet doesn’t want it and it will never happen. Your idea tries to make it happen, even if it’s just to some degree and not a full blown classic trinity, thus it’s unlikely to see it implemented.
If we’re really going with something like that, I’d rather prefer the boss to hit harder on his own instead of his aura, maybe give him more and more range over time. That’s probably going to be wonky though.
Oh and, even if healing was required, you can be quite certain that most of it would be done through water fields so you can still get as much dps as possible.
Nope, The point is that damage from the “decay aura” have to be negate thought passive healing/defense : Protection, regeneration, thing like soothing mist, weakness, vampiric aura, combo with dark field etc.
Damage from boss attack have to be evaded, reflected or blocked.
Unavoidable damage have to be disabled through the mean they give us.
And all of this still mean that you have to be as effective as possible through DPS if you want to beat the boss before breaking, so might, fury and sheer damage boost still have high value.
Now, the interesting thing is that as time pass, Retaliation start to gain a real value as well while it won’t have any kind of value with an enrage timer or with a boss that hit harder on it’s own.
The actual system just leave outside of the equation everything that is not pure DPS and burst heal which simply mean that there is no room for defensive stat in PvE since like you said a water field and some blast will take care of the consequence of a failed dodge on a big hit.
No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.
That is not the issue, what the enrage timer lead to is simply : learn the mechanic and play full DPS because this is what will be the most optimal way to beat it. An hard timer like this will always be more forgiving for full DPS party and less forgiving for defensive or mixed party.
On this encounter that we test on the BWE3, the most optimal way to beat it was full dps since heal could be provided without the need of healing power and a shield was enough to ensure agro on the boss.
This is going to be important to keep in mind—You can’t easily pub raids by design due to the need for voice coordination, understanding strengths and encounters, and so forth. This is the mentality shift: what matters is completing it at all, not necessarily completing it fast. The enrage timers put an upper limit on time spent per encounter anyway, and they force having enough DPS, but do not enough total DPS. Not every guild is [SC] or [vC] or [rT] or [DnT], and not every guild will be capable of running 10 DPS classes and winning every single time. That’s okay. I argue that even those pro guilds will find that having some anchor characters will increase the success rate enough to validate their use. For non-super-awesome guilds, those anchors will be even more important.
[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!
This is going to be important to keep in mind—You can’t easily pub raids by design due to the need for voice coordination, understanding strengths and encounters, and so forth. This is the mentality shift: what matters is completing it at all, not necessarily completing it fast. The enrage timers put an upper limit on time spent per encounter anyway, and they force having enough DPS, but do not enough total DPS. Not every guild is [SC] or [vC] or [rT] or [DnT], and not every guild will be capable of running 10 DPS classes and winning every single time. That’s okay. I argue that even those pro guilds will find that having some anchor characters will increase the success rate enough to validate their use. For non-super-awesome guilds, those anchors will be even more important.
Well, I’m sorry but it hurt me that you don’t understand (or don’t want to understand) my point.
The kind of encounter that we tested, by it’s design, and timer is a part of it, only favor might staking, fury and burst of heal. Every defensive/offensive mechanisms that are a bit passive were in the same place as they are in the old dungeon : unneeded.
Does it take skill to dps a boss through minimal pressure? No
Does it take skill to survive a boss that put high pressure? Yes
A hard enrage timer in itself is something that say : this boss require a minimum dps.
A gradually increasing pressure is something that say : this boss require a minimum dps and a minimum of defense, it’s up to you to find your optimal party.
No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.
- It would make aegis or pretty much every “on block” skill less and less effective as a survival tool.
No, make sure guardians turn from still alright to barely decent/crappy, because why not. I got carried too many times by random aegis and now I want my revenge!
A mix of the two should encourage a balance of playstyles/armor/etc and add more depth to GW2 PVE.
How does equipping clerics or knights armor ADD DEPTH TO THE GAME? How does a trinity add—-nevermind, this is pointless. Phiws won’t down raids with their kittenty nomads armor and kittenty teamcomps anyway, it’s a non-issue.
If anet does it right.
I said a mix of soft and hard enrage timers – with the soft enrage beginning really early in the fight and requiring cooperative survival techniques in order for the group to remain alive. In other words, if the only survival element is “dodge, dodge, dodge, heal, rinse, repeat” then there is a problem. I dont want a trinity and dont want groups full of clerics or knights gear.
But having a mechanic (such as the red orbs on the Vale boss) that encourages (not requires) the use of one or two “tanky” players in knights or soldiers to intercept big hits so the rest of the group doesnt have to, or a progressively increasing persistent damage tick (the soft enrage) that encourages the use of one or two people in zealots or clerics gear to up AOE heals in certain areas ADDS more to the encounter. It doesnt make it easier (the opposite actually).
The alternative means every fight has the exact same strategy – kill fast – because everyone is filling the exact same role. I know that is what people are used to from fractal and dungeon pugs, but it isnt the only way.
We dont need the trinity to add depth to the encounters, but there are ways to design fights with more than just pure dps requirements.