Guild Wars 2

fishball.7204:

Not this again. Please.

Timers are there so you can’t run 10 nomads hammer guardians and tank your way through every fight.

Indeed. Being allowed to Stack survivability to a degree where dodging or any form of skilled play is no longer needed seems to be exactly what some people would like to see.

Astralporing.1957:

randomguy.1283:

Again, saying timers are a lazy boss mechanic is like saying driving to work is a lazy way to get there because its an easy solution to a simple problem.

Well, driving to work is a lazy way to get there, isn’kitten It’s just nobody cares, because getting to work is not supposed to be challenging.

randomguy.1283:

As pointed out a million times before, if it wasn’t a dps race you could stack nomads classes and breeze through the bosses.

Again, if boss mechanics allow for that, those are some really bad mechanics.

My point was timers are an EASY WAY to accomplish and EASY GOAL and they do it JUST fine. The boss mechanics DONT ALLOW for that, you know why? BECAUSE THE TIMERS ARE A BOSS MECHANIC.

You have STILL not shown why timers are a bad mechanic. They are not a bad mechanic, they do their job just fine.

You can keep saying “timers are lazy”, “timers are lazy”, “there could be better mechanics” but you have yet to show how, and you keep making up bullkitten reasons why this is the case.

randomguy.1283:

Astralporing.1957:

randomguy.1283:

Again, saying timers are a lazy boss mechanic is like saying driving to work is a lazy way to get there because its an easy solution to a simple problem.

Well, driving to work is a lazy way to get there, isn’kitten It’s just nobody cares, because getting to work is not supposed to be challenging.

randomguy.1283:

As pointed out a million times before, if it wasn’t a dps race you could stack nomads classes and breeze through the bosses.

Again, if boss mechanics allow for that, those are some really bad mechanics.

My point was timers are an EASY WAY to accomplish and EASY GOAL and they do it JUST fine. The boss mechanics DONT ALLOW for that, you know why? BECAUSE THE TIMERS ARE A BOSS MECHANIC.

You have STILL not shown why timers are a bad mechanic. They are not a bad mechanic, they do their job just fine.

You can keep saying “timers are lazy”, “timers are lazy”, “there could be better mechanics” but you have yet to show how, and you keep making up bullkitten reasons why this is the case.

Inb4 they add a heal check with HP dropping during the fight instead of timer next raid or boon check.

Amineo.8951:

Inb4 they add a heal check with HP dropping during the fight instead of timer next raid or boon check.

Inb4 they add a heal check with HP dropping during the fight next raid or boon check AND timers.

Cyninja.2954:

Ertrak.9506:

I’ve already stated how I’ve seen in other games. Short burn-phases to change phase or DPS vs the Boss’s DPS on specific phase(s) are ways i’ve seen. A timer for the whole kill itself is just…not creative and lazy. Also incorporating burst DPS into PvE would neat too.

And as others have pointed out, all you do is chop up the timer instead of actually working around it.

Please come up with a serious solution and not just timer semantics.

Your current “solution” is just as lazy as the timers you complain about.

Here is my suggestion, remove the timer but increase the boss damage by 500% after the same amount of time. Problem solved for 90% of the complaining people in this thread since it seems most don’t even understand how basic boss design works.

That’s how those timers work right now actually.

Neox.3497:

Cyninja.2954:

Ertrak.9506:

I’ve already stated how I’ve seen in other games. Short burn-phases to change phase or DPS vs the Boss’s DPS on specific phase(s) are ways i’ve seen. A timer for the whole kill itself is just…not creative and lazy. Also incorporating burst DPS into PvE would neat too.

And as others have pointed out, all you do is chop up the timer instead of actually working around it.

Please come up with a serious solution and not just timer semantics.

Your current “solution” is just as lazy as the timers you complain about.

Here is my suggestion, remove the timer but increase the boss damage by 500% after the same amount of time. Problem solved for 90% of the complaining people in this thread since it seems most don’t even understand how basic boss design works.

That’s how those timers work right now actually.

Hence why I suggested it since most of the suggestions so far have bee along the same lines.

Look, here’s my point…

A timer is a DPS check to make sure the team is not going full 10-man tank to cheese through the fight. we all agree on that.

The problem is that the DPS check that timer creates…should be integrated into the fight itself, not be an isolated arbitrary thing that just says “ok fail at this time”.

At least, this is my opinion on it. A small inherent timer, such as a vulnerable period to put a boss into the next phase for example, would be fine in my opinion as it then an actual part of the boss’s mechanic.

A possible other way might be to give the boss a permanent regen buff that increases as it’s health depletes. This can certainly be tuned such that its healing will outweigh the DPS of a team using mostly-to-full tank gear.

I’m no game dev, and I know I’m not the most creative person, but I’d certainly rather see DPS check within the mechanics of the boss itself rather than an arbitrary factor. It just takes away from the fun of fighting it for me.

Ertrak.9506:

Look, here’s my point…

A timer is a DPS check to make sure the team is not going full 10-man tank to cheese through the fight. we all agree on that.

The problem is that the DPS check that timer creates…should be integrated into the fight itself, not be an isolated arbitrary thing that just says “ok fail at this time”.

Its not arbitrary, its part of the balance.

If you still need something, imagine VG’s pillars are charging up power (you need to kill him before 8mins or the charge will be absorbed!!!), Gorseval is preparing for a devasting attack (he’s sucking souls from the river and will be able to kill everything in the spiritwoods in 6mins!!!) and Sabetha is getting angrier with you (her flame thrower got over heated recently and has to reset before she can unleash her full power!!!) – there’s your motivation…

PS: Your regen buff idea means there is no end to the fight if they cannot get past the DPS requirement… This needs to be coupled with asoft enrage to wipe the group, WHICH BRINGS US FULL CIRCLE TO A TIMER.

…

I never said it wasn’t part of the balance. I said that its not integrated into the fight itself, thereby making it arbitrary. I want the mechanics of boss to be the DPS checks. not an external timer.

Also regen was just a random idea. I never said it was perfect. Stop nit-picking. Also, you don’t actually necessarily need a mechanic that can wipe the group. Not being able to succeed is failure in itself.

Ertrak.9506:

arbitrary

Nothing about the timers is arbitrary, they are chosen specificly to balance the encounter (which you have agreed yourself), this means the opposite of arbitrary.

The enrage timer doesn’t say “fail at this time”. We enraged sabetha once and still could kill her in the following 30 seconds she was enraged.

Ertrak.9506:

Look, here’s my point…

A timer is a DPS check to make sure the team is not going full 10-man tank to cheese through the fight. we all agree on that.

The problem is that the DPS check that timer creates…should be integrated into the fight itself, not be an isolated arbitrary thing that just says “ok fail at this time”.

At least, this is my opinion on it. A small inherent timer, such as a vulnerable period to put a boss into the next phase for example, would be fine in my opinion as it then an actual part of the boss’s mechanic.

A possible other way might be to give the boss a permanent regen buff that increases as it’s health depletes. This can certainly be tuned such that its healing will outweigh the DPS of a team using mostly-to-full tank gear.

I’m no game dev, and I know I’m not the most creative person, but I’d certainly rather see DPS check within the mechanics of the boss itself rather than an arbitrary factor. It just takes away from the fun of fighting it for me.

Yeah the major problem with this post (and this entire thread) is that DPS stands for “damage per second” and it is literally impossible to have a DPS check without a timer of some sort unless you have unlimited tries at completing the DPS check. Pretty much every complaint about raid timers in this thread goes away if you remove the timer from the UI and provide an explanation for why the boss gets stronger over time (even while changing nothing about the fight). You can have all the cool mechanics you want that make the boss vulnerable at a certain time and then require you to damage fast enough…but in the end you are still racing against a timer to kill the boss fast enough.

The “boss vulnerable period” thing does in fact exist in the game for several bosses, most notably the evolved jungle worm. That’s a great fight but I don’t see why you think having a burn phase after fulfilling a requirement is so much better than having a timer. Of course, that fight has a timer anyway because it doesn’t get harder over time, and you would get unlimited burn phases if there were no timer. Though you could make it get harder over time by spawning more and more larva and vet worms to the point that it would eventually be impossible to complete. That way the fight gets harder the further you get into it, but if you can keep DPSing you can still kill the boss even when it gets really difficult…oh wait that’s the same as the current raid wing but with the timer UI removed.

I know you said your regen idea was a dumb random thing, but it actually isn’t a bad attempt at a solution. The problem is that it is equivalent to throwing a timer on the screen and saying “maintain this DPS for 20 seconds” which isn’t really that much different than what we’re already doing.The major difference between this and the spirit vale enrage timer is that you don’t get killed afterwards. So you need to either solve this by having the fight get more difficult over time (equivalent to an enrage timer), or by having the fight never end. The reason I bring this up is that there is no other solution – either some boss mechanic kills you after one or more DPS check failures (equivalent to enrage timer) or it doesn’t (neverending fight). There isn’t really another option, and since neverending fight is an awful solution in general, there must be some kind of enrage timer in every fight.

tl;dr every DPS check has a timer, even if the numbers aren’t shown on the screen

fishball.7204:

Not this again. Please.

Timers are there so you can’t run 10 nomads hammer guardians and tank your way through every fight.

And what is wrong about that? Weren’t we supposed to play the way we want?

Dinosaurs.8674:

The reason I bring this up is that there is no other solution – either some boss mechanic kills you after one or more DPS check failures (equivalent to enrage timer) or it doesn’t (neverending fight). There isn’t really another option, and since neverending fight is an awful solution in general, there must be some kind of enrage timer in every fight.

Doesn’t follow. As long as there are checks that must be passed to continue (which do not have to be dps-based. Gorse World Eater is a good example), the fight can throw them at you infinitely. As long as the checks themselves are not trivial to clear, people will eventually start making urrecoverable mistakes. DPS-specced group will get through having to engage with those only few times (or perhaps not even once, if they are really good, or if some dps-based phasing mechanics are possible), but the oft-quoted “bane of all that is raid”, full nomad group would need to stay on their toes for a lot longer. Granted, they might have sustain to ignore some lesser mechanics, but if the major ones are done well, no way of facetanking would get them through it. In the end, they might actually work harder for that win.

randomguy.1283:

My point was timers are an EASY WAY to accomplish and EASY GOAL and they do it JUST fine.

They do it about as fine as grind and hamster wheels replace content. Those are also simple and easy solutions to accomplish easy goal.
Simple and easy doesn’t equal good. Quite often it isn’t.

Astralporing.1957:

As long as there are checks that must be passed to continue (which do not have to be dps-based. Gorse World Eater is a good example)

Are you under the assumption Gorse’s World Ender isn’t a timed DPS race? Because you’re wrong if you are and need to go back and think again.

Mortifer.2946:

fishball.7204:

Not this again. Please.

Timers are there so you can’t run 10 nomads hammer guardians and tank your way through every fight.

And what is wrong about that? Weren’t we supposed to play the way we want?

and raids were ment to be the most challenging content ingame. Both of those conflict when one makes the other obsolete.

Astralporing.1957:

Doesn’t follow. As long as there are checks that must be passed to continue (which do not have to be dps-based. Gorse World Eater is a good example), the fight can throw them at you infinitely. As long as the checks themselves are not trivial to clear, people will eventually start making urrecoverable mistakes.

Not sure what you are smoking. Goreseval is THE definition of a timer which cuts off the fight. It’s probably the only fight where raids wipe due to timer instead of mechanics.

On the same note, yes you are correct in that if you made challenging content challenging enough it would not matter what gear you were wearing. Unfortunately your reasoning ends there since you do not consider (neither have you given any suggestions) as to how this would account for the higher survivability in tanky gear versus glass canon gear. In order for tanky gear to not trivilise content you’d have to make up some insane kitten which essentially becomes undoable in glass canon gear (essentially only making people wear again the minimum amount of tank required, rest damage). Even IF you somehow managed to create a couple of encounters, you would be severly limiting yourself as a developer.

Astralporing.1957:

They do it about as fine as grind and hamster wheels replace content. Those are also simple and easy solutions to accomplish easy goal.
Simple and easy doesn’t equal good. Quite often it isn’t.

I’m going to go out on a limp and say that you just felt like comparing apples to oranges. You’ve already shown you have no understanding of how encounter design works in a game, no reason not to throw in a good sounding but totally nonsens comparison.

Let’s be honest here, I’m pretty sure everybody here who has beaten any of the bosses, will fail rarely because of the enrage timer.
Mechanics will do that for you just fine.
Analyze the situation with me. Knowing full well that without a timer, people will try going for more tanky specs, that’s a given. However More tankiness means less DPS everybody should agree on that. Less DPS means more time to take down a boss, everyone should also agree to that.

The more time there is, the higher the chance for someone to misstep and fail somehow, whether is it porting into the danger zone in VG or failing to get 4 people in the circle for instance can get quite deadly for any raid, or just getting in the flame line on sabetha(which is instagib, mind you, regardless of gear), or having kard still up when sabetha comes back. Even without a timer the more people that will die due to mistakes the longer it’ll take and more time it’ll take to take the boss down. And the cycle continues. Would it make the bosses easier? Yes and no. Again, mechanics are what kills people and raids, people failing to see that are naive. Would more tanky builds be used for higher survivability? certainly, but again, that means less DPS and longer TTK for the boss and higher mistake rates and fail rate.

Remove the timer on vale guardian, get 10 nomads to last phase, how many people can claim they can keep up with this for a full 5-10 minutes without saying skill isn’t involved?

There’s already soft enrage timer on two of the bosses, VG has softish in the form of the 5th phase, gorseval even has 2 with the updrafts and charged souls, why is it even necessary to have a hard enrage timer that essentially makes every build but 1 or 2 for each profession viable, which among other things excluded thieves from most raid comps raids because of their low DPS.

I agree that timers are lazy design and the analogy of the car just doesn’t work, simply put because it’s not even remotely the same. It’s more like an F1 pilot being given a time limit to complete a lap. There’s no need for that, as if he’s too slow he’ll lose anyway to other racers.

Enrage timers shouldn’t be a problem for anyone worthy of the rewards anyways. HINT>

Coulter.2315:

Astralporing.1957:

As long as there are checks that must be passed to continue (which do not have to be dps-based. Gorse World Eater is a good example)

Are you under the assumption Gorse’s World Ender isn’t a timed DPS race? Because you’re wrong if you are and need to go back and think again.

Single World Ender? By itself, it isn’t. The dps race is due to the overall timer, and limited number of updrafts.

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

Astralporing.1957:

As long as there are checks that must be passed to continue (which do not have to be dps-based. Gorse World Eater is a good example)

Are you under the assumption Gorse’s World Ender isn’t a timed DPS race? Because you’re wrong if you are and need to go back and think again.

Single World Ender? By itself, it isn’t. The dps race is due to the overall timer, and limited number of updrafts.

You do realise you need to phase him twice to cut it off right? Its literally a wipe mechanic on a timer requiring DPS to clear it (have you even fought him?)

Mortifer.2946:

fishball.7204:

Not this again. Please.

Timers are there so you can’t run 10 nomads hammer guardians and tank your way through every fight.

And what is wrong about that? Weren’t we supposed to play the way we want?

Because raids are supposed to be DIFFICULT duh. (Not that they’re so hard right now)

Well, I’m not saying I’m playing nomad, lol…but I don’t agree… 10 guardians in nomad would be fightining VG for so long that they would actually create more opportunity to a fail. On Gorseval they would wipe, and on Sabetha the same….your understanding of the idea of difficulty is faulty.

Mortifer.2946:

Well, I’m not saying I’m playing nomad, lol…but I don’t agree… 10 guardians in nomad would be fightining VG for so long that they would actually create more opportunity to a fail. On Gorseval they would wipe, and on Sabetha the same….your understanding of the idea of difficulty is faulty.

But if you remove the timer you then need to increase the damage of all mechanics (nomads guardians could just all ignore the green circle on VG for example), which means you’re now trying to balance against both heavy defense comps AND heavy offense comps. As I have said MANY times the timer is there for balance, it forces you to play within a time bracket and lets the devs balance around comps that manage there (remove the timer and you need to have burn phases that aren’t trivial for DPS makeups and damage mechanics that aren’t trivial for tank comps – they will fail at one of these at least).

The timer is part of development and balance for the encounter AND actually influences the fun you have (if you’re squishy you need to pay attention) AND human attention span is only so good so you need to balance around that too (its actually good for a boss to wipe the group after so long doing it – imagine limitless fights where the hardest boss is found to be beatable with a 45min tank group comp, would just be awful).

I really hope you understand why the timer is important now.

Coulter.2315:

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

Astralporing.1957:

As long as there are checks that must be passed to continue (which do not have to be dps-based. Gorse World Eater is a good example)

Are you under the assumption Gorse’s World Ender isn’t a timed DPS race? Because you’re wrong if you are and need to go back and think again.

Single World Ender? By itself, it isn’t. The dps race is due to the overall timer, and limited number of updrafts.

You do realise you need to phase him twice to cut it off right? Its literally a wipe mechanic on a timer requiring DPS to clear it (have you even fought him?)

…and you are the one saying nomads are bad because they can ignore boss mechanics.

Coulter.2315:

Mortifer.2946:

Well, I’m not saying I’m playing nomad, lol…but I don’t agree… 10 guardians in nomad would be fightining VG for so long that they would actually create more opportunity to a fail. On Gorseval they would wipe, and on Sabetha the same….your understanding of the idea of difficulty is faulty.

But if you remove the timer you then need to increase the damage of all mechanics (nomads guardians could just all ignore the green circle on VG for example), which means you’re now trying to balance against both heavy defense comps AND heavy offense comps.

Some damage can be releged to be either armor-ignoring or damaging not a flat value, but percentage of hps (or both). Partywipe mechanics need no balance whatsoever, unless they can be skipped (…gorse phasing you mentioned above), but then it’s more likely it will be dps-specced players that will do the skipping. Not nomads.

Coulter.2315:

As I have said MANY times the timer is there for balance, it forces you to play within a time bracket and lets the devs balance around comps that manage there (remove the timer and you need to have burn phases that aren’t trivial for DPS makeups and damage mechanics that aren’t trivial for tank comps – they will fail at one of these at least).

So, you’re basically agreeing it’s there because it is a crutch used so devs don’t need to think of nontrivial and actually difficult mechanics.

Coulter.2315:

The timer is part of development and balance for the encounter AND actually influences the fun you have (if you’re squishy you need to pay attention) AND human attention span is only so good so you need to balance around that too (its actually good for a boss to wipe the group after so long doing it – imagine limitless fights where the hardest boss is found to be beatable with a 45min tank group comp, would just be awful).

Why? It would only be awful if that tank group didn’t need to put any effort. If the effort they put was comparable to a dps group (albeit likely a different one), i see no problem.

Coulter.2315:

I really hope you understand why the timer is important now.

Yeah. Important to cover for lazy work, or to unnecessarily enforce narrow meta. Neither of which is a good thing. Not really important otherwise.

Thank you almighty Coulter!!! Now I get it and love the timers and zerker/viper meta! Thank you

XOXOXO

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

Astralporing.1957:

As long as there are checks that must be passed to continue (which do not have to be dps-based. Gorse World Eater is a good example)

Are you under the assumption Gorse’s World Ender isn’t a timed DPS race? Because you’re wrong if you are and need to go back and think again.

Single World Ender? By itself, it isn’t. The dps race is due to the overall timer, and limited number of updrafts.

You do realise you need to phase him twice to cut it off right? Its literally a wipe mechanic on a timer requiring DPS to clear it (have you even fought him?)

…and you are the one saying nomads are bad because they can ignore boss mechanics.

Yes, because world ender is an instawipe mechanic, do you want every skill to now be an instawipe? Clearly that would be stupid.

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

Mortifer.2946:

Well, I’m not saying I’m playing nomad, lol…but I don’t agree… 10 guardians in nomad would be fightining VG for so long that they would actually create more opportunity to a fail. On Gorseval they would wipe, and on Sabetha the same….your understanding of the idea of difficulty is faulty.

But if you remove the timer you then need to increase the damage of all mechanics (nomads guardians could just all ignore the green circle on VG for example), which means you’re now trying to balance against both heavy defense comps AND heavy offense comps.

Some damage can be releged to be either armor-ignoring or damaging not a flat value, but percentage of hps (or both). Partywipe mechanics need no balance whatsoever, unless they can be skipped (…gorse phasing you mentioned above), but then it’s more likely it will be dps-specced players that will do the skipping. Not nomads.

If you make everything % or armour ignoring then the ONLY builds will be zerker/viper etc because you just removed the only benefits of vit/tough. Why are you trying to destroy the very thing you wanted to promote? Looks pretty stupid.

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

As I have said MANY times the timer is there for balance, it forces you to play within a time bracket and lets the devs balance around comps that manage there (remove the timer and you need to have burn phases that aren’t trivial for DPS makeups and damage mechanics that aren’t trivial for tank comps – they will fail at one of these at least).

So, you’re basically agreeing it’s there because it is a crutch used so devs don’t need to think of nontrivial and actually difficult mechanics.

You don’t seem to know what “nontrivial” means, because everything you’re suggesting limits the complexity (if everything 1-shots its trivial, if everything attacks based on % its trivial). When you don’t understand the words you’re using AND you have zero experience on even Gorseval YOU are not a voice to listen to for balancing raids…

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

The timer is part of development and balance for the encounter AND actually influences the fun you have (if you’re squishy you need to pay attention) AND human attention span is only so good so you need to balance around that too (its actually good for a boss to wipe the group after so long doing it – imagine limitless fights where the hardest boss is found to be beatable with a 45min tank group comp, would just be awful).

Why? It would only be awful if that tank group didn’t need to put any effort. If the effort they put was comparable to a dps group (albeit likely a different one), i see no problem.

I don’t need to reply to this, people can read the insanity themselves.

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

I really hope you understand why the timer is important now.

Yeah. Important to cover for lazy work, or to unnecessarily enforce narrow meta. Neither of which is a good thing. Not really important otherwise.

Your suggestions would all narrow a meta, you are clueless. Do you think your own brain has managed to out do over a decade of Raid development from game balancers and players? Think on that…

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

Astralporing.1957:

As long as there are checks that must be passed to continue (which do not have to be dps-based. Gorse World Eater is a good example)

Are you under the assumption Gorse’s World Ender isn’t a timed DPS race? Because you’re wrong if you are and need to go back and think again.

Single World Ender? By itself, it isn’t. The dps race is due to the overall timer, and limited number of updrafts.

You do realise you need to phase him twice to cut it off right? Its literally a wipe mechanic on a timer requiring DPS to clear it (have you even fought him?)

…and you are the one saying nomads are bad because they can ignore boss mechanics.

No, he’s suggesting that nomads COULD be bad IF they could ignore boss mechanics. Your head must be 3 meters thick.

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

Mortifer.2946:

Well, I’m not saying I’m playing nomad, lol…but I don’t agree… 10 guardians in nomad would be fightining VG for so long that they would actually create more opportunity to a fail. On Gorseval they would wipe, and on Sabetha the same….your understanding of the idea of difficulty is faulty.

But if you remove the timer you then need to increase the damage of all mechanics (nomads guardians could just all ignore the green circle on VG for example), which means you’re now trying to balance against both heavy defense comps AND heavy offense comps.

Some damage can be releged to be either armor-ignoring or damaging not a flat value, but percentage of hps (or both). Partywipe mechanics need no balance whatsoever, unless they can be skipped (…gorse phasing you mentioned above), but then it’s more likely it will be dps-specced players that will do the skipping. Not nomads.

This would make the fights easier. which they shouldn’t be.

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

As I have said MANY times the timer is there for balance, it forces you to play within a time bracket and lets the devs balance around comps that manage there (remove the timer and you need to have burn phases that aren’t trivial for DPS makeups and damage mechanics that aren’t trivial for tank comps – they will fail at one of these at least).

So, you’re basically agreeing it’s there because it is a crutch used so devs don’t need to think of nontrivial and actually difficult mechanics.

Wrong, its there because its an EFFECTIVE way to balance the fight, not because its a lazy way.

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

The timer is part of development and balance for the encounter AND actually influences the fun you have (if you’re squishy you need to pay attention) AND human attention span is only so good so you need to balance around that too (its actually good for a boss to wipe the group after so long doing it – imagine limitless fights where the hardest boss is found to be beatable with a 45min tank group comp, would just be awful).

Why? It would only be awful if that tank group didn’t need to put any effort. If the effort they put was comparable to a dps group (albeit likely a different one), i see no problem.

But it’s impossible for a tank group to put in the same effort as a dps group unless you make mechanics IGNORE gear which would mean the gear you use is meaningless, like no kitten.

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

I really hope you understand why the timer is important now.

Yeah. Important to cover for lazy work, or to unnecessarily enforce narrow meta. Neither of which is a good thing. Not really important otherwise.

You continue to insist the timer is a cover for lazy work, yet provide no evidence for this assertion.

Mortifer.2946:

Thank you almighty Coulter!!! Now I get it and love the timers and zerker/viper meta! Thank you

XOXOXO

Look if you don’t like how raids work, don’t play raids.

It’s weird but now we have raids (and dungeons are dead) because of people crying about how PvE is all about the highest dps, gear other than full zerker (highest dps stats) not viable and that everything dies so quickly.

Now if raids were the solution to that problem (whether it was a problem or not) then why is this answer still highest dps gear/builds? And why is this ok now and why was this not ok when it was about dungeons?

In dungeons it was all the evil elitists forcing you to play their way to have a fast dungeon run, in raids it’s the game itself forcing you.

I’m not saying it’s good or bad and i don’t really care either way but that’s ironic.

kolompi.1287:

It’s weird but now we have raids (and dungeons are dead) because of people crying about how PvE is all about the highest dps, gear other than full zerker (highest dps stats) not viable and that everything dies so quickly.

Now if raids were the solution to that problem (whether it was a problem or not) then why is this answer still highest dps gear/builds? And why is this ok now and why was this not ok when it was about dungeons?

In dungeons it was all the evil elitists forcing you to play their way to have a fast dungeon run, in raids it’s the game itself forcing you.

I’m not saying it’s good or bad and i don’t really care either way but that’s ironic.

Dungeons (if dead) are not dead due to anti-glass kvetching. The dungeon liquid gold nerf was to “entice” players to move to raids and fractals, which is the group instanced content ANet wants to support.

ANet never stated they wanted to “end” the berserker meta. Their stated goals were to produce content that required more use of more of the build options the game offered. So far, they’ve made a place for condition damage, tanking and healing. Also, I believe more traits are in use, as well as some different utilities.

ANet never said they were intending to produce “wear what you want” content. For one thing, they can’t control what players will demand except by creating encounters to require some condi, a tank, and a healer. For another, dungeons was exactly that content. Dungeons could be completed by groups wearing whatever they wanted. As you’ve noted, we all know how that turned out.

And afaics, there are still people complaining about being “forced” to play meta builds with meta gear. It’s just that the ones who wanted to be the tank and healer are happier.

IndigoSundown.5419:

ANet never stated they wanted to “end” the berserker meta.

They kinda literally stated that you won’t be able to beat everything in raids with berserker gear.
I guess they were right, people also use sinister now :’)

randomguy.1283:

Mortifer.2946:

Thank you almighty Coulter!!! Now I get it and love the timers and zerker/viper meta! Thank you

XOXOXO

Look if you don’t like how raids work, don’t play raids.

Who are you? Some random guy is telling me what to do…

bladex.9502:

IndigoSundown.5419:

ANet never stated they wanted to “end” the berserker meta.

They kinda literally stated that you won’t be able to beat everything in raids with berserker gear.
I guess they were right, people also use sinister now :’)

It’s viper you noobs pls get with the meta sinister is soooo 2015

Elomite.2396:

bladex.9502:

IndigoSundown.5419:

ANet never stated they wanted to “end” the berserker meta.

They kinda literally stated that you won’t be able to beat everything in raids with berserker gear.
I guess they were right, people also use sinister now :’)

It’s viper you noobs pls get with the meta sinister is soooo 2015

Please you probably still have aristocracy runes on your engineer l2p you’re not relevant if you don’t do extremely challenging raids!!!

bladex.9502:

Please you probably still have aristocracy runes on your engineer l2p you’re not relevant if you don’t do extremely challenging raids!!!

Just because you use hacks to inspect peopples gear does not make me a bad player! Yes I use artistocracy because I play a healer/buffbot and there’s nothing wrong with that. Please take your elitist attitude elsewhere or I’ll report you. >.>

Topic has derailed quite a bit now has it not? We are suddenly at gear disparrity and other things.

I still lack any type of sensible or possible solution from the “we don’t want timers crowd”.

Here’s the thing, once you come up with at least 1 way of making content work in this type of itemisation game with lack of trinity, people would be a lot more willing to take a “let’s try it approach”. Moaning and crying about timers without offering actual solutions will get you no where.

Then, once you’ve come up with that 1 idea that works instead of timers, make sure you expand on how you would make all the fights work in a similar way because after all, the raid team needs to design multiple engaging boss fights and not just that one encounter.

Here are some hints to think about while coming up with a solution:

- this game has active defences as a central part of its survival mechanic. Overriding them works to a certain extent, but you can’t make them obsolete for every encounter

- itemaisation in general. not going to get into detail, but make sure you understand how the different stats interact and especially how enemy AI reacts to them.

- latency – while a minor point, you need to remember this is a MMO and reaction and latency are a factor

- 9 classes. remember that the content needs to work for a mix of classes. Designing around 1 or 2 classes being mandatory works once or twice, but gets old real fast.

So, now I’m really interested in seeing what people come up with. Since everyone here seems to be an expert game and boss encounter designer, let’s hear them, the great ideas how timers can be reworked and removed with the formentioned points in mind.

Maybe expand and make an entire miniboss fight or such. That would certainly help people a lot in understanding how this sort of content is supposed to work without timers. Also try to avoid replacing one type of timer with another. No, that dps timer versus is a general fight timer is NOT a different mechanic or design.

Personally I never look at the clock while I am raiding. But if the timer bothers you there was a great suggestion here while back as to how to fix it.

Step one: Find a piece of dark colored tape.
Step two: Put it over the clock in the corner of your screen.
Step three: Play and enjoy.

/thread.

bladex.9502:

IndigoSundown.5419:

ANet never stated they wanted to “end” the berserker meta.

They kinda literally stated that you won’t be able to beat everything in raids with berserker gear.
I guess they were right, people also use sinister now :’)

Is the tank not wearing full glass gear? They meant “not everyone will wear berserker,” not “everyone will have to wear something other than berserker.”

Mortifer.2946:

randomguy.1283:

Mortifer.2946:

Thank you almighty Coulter!!! Now I get it and love the timers and zerker/viper meta! Thank you

XOXOXO

Look if you don’t like how raids work, don’t play raids.

Who are you? Some random guy is telling me what to do…

I think the point is that he shouldn’t HAVE to tell you to not do something you don’t like. I would consider that a polite reminder.

But I do like raids :‘( I just don’t like not having raiding group and having to switch from guardian (work in progress, just 8 more HoT HPs until fully unlocked herald). On a side note, is herald really stronger than guardian? from my current experience he is not….and is much more squishy

Talyn.3295:

Personally I never look at the clock while I am raiding. But if the timer bothers you there was a great suggestion here while back as to how to fix it.

Step one: Find a piece of dark colored tape.
Step two: Put it over the clock in the corner of your screen.
Step three: Play and enjoy.

/thread.

This person gets it.

They should just remove the timer but keep the enrage.

Now no one knows the exact time the boss will go into raid-wipe mode!

Mortifer.2946:

But I do like raids :‘( I just don’t like not having raiding group and having to switch from guardian (work in progress, just 8 more HoT HPs until fully unlocked herald). On a side note, is herald really stronger than guardian? from my current experience he is not….and is much more squishy

Just keep playing your guardian then. Except for the Facet of Nature for the Mesmer’s Quickness, the Herald doesn’t bring that much to a group. Guardian is superior to herald in sabetha, i’m pretty sure the guardian is better at VG and Gorseval (but the margin is smaller for those two).

As for group. There is a lot of people that want a raid group, just start one. Talk with people that seem to have the same problem as you on the forum, when you pugs talk to the people that seem to be nice and have decent skill, I saw several raiding guild message for recruitment. Unless you are lucky enough to have several friends that want to play the raids at the same time as you, getting a raiding group take effort and time.

Thank you Thaddeus for your suggestion. I’m actually in a progress of earning gold for commander tag + reforging my tanking heavy armor and some weapons into berseker. If I do it, I can actually play herald, PS warrior and DPS hammer guard with the same piece of armor and weapons. And if I actually want to tank VG, I can just swap trinkets. Previously I used build in which weapons and a few armor pieces were knight/cavalier stats, but today I realized I can get pretty close to the same stats while swapping only trinkets. I made this build, in which I have just 2 more toughness than now in my old tank gear: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNAS5en8cCFChddCmCBEEhl4BrKAslqXy7v+3CEbJkE2CA-TBCBABepUBgHCwZKBD4KAslyKs2fIPdDVq+TAAEgbezsZbGc0je0je0j2Nv5Nv5RvZpAGVZE-e
So I as I said, I can fill in roles of herald, PS warrior, DPS guard or even tank guardian…that is something what will help me to get to many more groups, plus after I get 300g, I will start working towards assembling my own squad

Sykper.6583:

Talyn.3295:

Personally I never look at the clock while I am raiding. But if the timer bothers you there was a great suggestion here while back as to how to fix it.

Step one: Find a piece of dark colored tape.
Step two: Put it over the clock in the corner of your screen.
Step three: Play and enjoy.

/thread.

This person gets it.

They should just remove the timer but keep the enrage.

Now no one knows the exact time the boss will go into raid-wipe mode!

Except I’ll just time it with a stopwatch. Why would I want less information?
People want to beat raids reliably – they want as much information and help that they can get.

Enrage timers are a lazy way to sieve certain builds. There are more ambitious clever and elegant way to accomplish.

But enrage timers are not equal to DPS races per se. The mechanics of the encounters determine the kind of race. 25 million damage required within eight minutes create a DPS race. 20 million healing required within eight minutes create an HPS race. Encouters with other combinations of HPS, DPS and length of boons conditions or CC create other types of races.

If you want to go the lazy with enrage timers then at least create more variety than simply checking DPS in each encounter.

Belenwyn.8674:

Enrage timers are a lazy way to sieve certain builds. There are more ambitious clever and elegant way to accomplish.

But enrage timers are not equal to DPS races per se. The mechanics of the encounters determine the kind of race. 25 million damage required within eight minutes create a DPS race. 20 million healing required within eight minutes create an HPS race. Encouters with other combinations of HPS, DPS and length of boons conditions or CC create other types of races.

If you want to go the lazy with enrage timers then at least create more variety than simply checking DPS in each encounter.

The only encounter that checks DPS is Gorseval.

Coulter.2315:

Belenwyn.8674:

Enrage timers are a lazy way to sieve certain builds. There are more ambitious clever and elegant way to accomplish.

But enrage timers are not equal to DPS races per se. The mechanics of the encounters determine the kind of race. 25 million damage required within eight minutes create a DPS race. 20 million healing required within eight minutes create an HPS race. Encouters with other combinations of HPS, DPS and length of boons conditions or CC create other types of races.

If you want to go the lazy with enrage timers then at least create more variety than simply checking DPS in each encounter.

The only encounter that checks DPS is Gorseval.

What are the other encounters are checking? HPS? Boon duration? CC?

Belenwyn.8674:

Coulter.2315:

Belenwyn.8674:

Enrage timers are a lazy way to sieve certain builds. There are more ambitious clever and elegant way to accomplish.

But enrage timers are not equal to DPS races per se. The mechanics of the encounters determine the kind of race. 25 million damage required within eight minutes create a DPS race. 20 million healing required within eight minutes create an HPS race. Encouters with other combinations of HPS, DPS and length of boons conditions or CC create other types of races.

If you want to go the lazy with enrage timers then at least create more variety than simply checking DPS in each encounter.

The only encounter that checks DPS is Gorseval.

What are the other encounters are checking? HPS? Boon duration? CC?

All of the encounters check all of these things.

randomguy.1283:

Belenwyn.8674:

Coulter.2315:

Belenwyn.8674:

Enrage timers are a lazy way to sieve certain builds. There are more ambitious clever and elegant way to accomplish.

But enrage timers are not equal to DPS races per se. The mechanics of the encounters determine the kind of race. 25 million damage required within eight minutes create a DPS race. 20 million healing required within eight minutes create an HPS race. Encouters with other combinations of HPS, DPS and length of boons conditions or CC create other types of races.

If you want to go the lazy with enrage timers then at least create more variety than simply checking DPS in each encounter.

The only encounter that checks DPS is Gorseval.

What are the other encounters are checking? HPS? Boon duration? CC?

All of the encounters check all of these things.

Since we always see 8-10 DPS-focussed builds it seems the same DPS-focussed weighting is used in all encounters. Otherwise we would see more tanks or healing-focussed builds in certain encounters. And the enrage timer would sieve raid compositions with 8-9 berserker/viper-based builds more often.

Harper.4173:

Sykper.6583:

Talyn.3295:

Personally I never look at the clock while I am raiding. But if the timer bothers you there was a great suggestion here while back as to how to fix it.

Step one: Find a piece of dark colored tape.
Step two: Put it over the clock in the corner of your screen.
Step three: Play and enjoy.

/thread.

This person gets it.

They should just remove the timer but keep the enrage.

Now no one knows the exact time the boss will go into raid-wipe mode!

Except I’ll just time it with a stopwatch. Why would I want less information?
People want to beat raids reliably – they want as much information and help that they can get.

I know that, heck by having an in-game enrage timer Arenanet gets ahead of WoW in terms of not needing a mod for that kind of information.

I suppose people want a more ‘authentic’ boss without having to see a static timer in the corner, but it helps so much more than it impacts how you view each boss with said timer.