Guild Wars 2

Hi -

I can’t be the only one who thinks the current 2 chrono 2 cps 2 drood 4 dps meta is super stale in current raid scene. We’re all exited for the new elite specs for PVE, but what are your thoughts on using them (although of course we dont have all the numbers yet) in raids?

Well sadly? it looks like the new Spellbreaker is going to be a strong go’er for pvp/wvw but not so much in raids. Power based from the tooltips, which is ok but rip my viper set but still no issue swapping if there is a viable raid build with the new Elite. Also, just made Rodgort so rip that as well if I use the new one…lol, figures.
But if cPS is dead Mirage on the other looks hopeful. Again, it can all change with release so will just have to chill for a couple months and see what plays out. Rev may be another but me thinks its gonna be heals, giving Druids a break I guess.
All in all just nice that some options may be available for other builds/classes and we can say screw the “meta” and run what is fun and works!
Spellbreaker “looks” awesome and I really hope its not mostly pvp but if so those that play pvp have waited for something else so fair call.

I’m hoping a couple of them are ‘OP’ (I’m talking low risk/high DPS like the old Viper horror Necro) so that scrubs like me can start raiding again, or at least blaze through fractals with little hassle.

based only on what extremely limited information we have

Ele(Weaver) will probably be back as the Pug numero uno dps
Engi(Holo) might push out any other power dps
Theif (Deadeye) Probably wont be raid viable, atleast not the rifle using kind.
Ranger (Soulbeast) Doubtful it can compete with druid without significant nerfs to druid first
Warrior (Spellbreaker) Eh..unless the skills work on bosses or the traits are legit bonkers there’ll be little change
Memser (Mirage) Not enough other tanks to push out chrono
Guardian (Firebrand) Probably still a mid tier dps, doesnt seem to show enough to break into other roles
Necromancer (Scourge) Interesting concept for an offensive support might shine where condi druid used too but otherwise not seeing it
Rev (Renegade) Doesn’t look like it offers enough to even come back to its former glory days of boonbots.

Now all this being said it really does more or less depend on any pre PoF changes that should be coming sooner rather than later. If boonshare takes a massive hit and power builds get a significant increase then some of this may change.

TexZero.7910:

Memser (Mirage) Not enough other tanks to push out chrono
Guardian (Firebrand) Probably still a mid tier dps, doesnt seem to show enough to break into other roles

Firebrand may kill the second mesmer who’s not tanking, though all that depends on many things we currently have no idea about. Thinking about future metas seems pretty pointless with the currently available information.

CptAurellian.9537:

TexZero.7910:

Memser (Mirage) Not enough other tanks to push out chrono
Guardian (Firebrand) Probably still a mid tier dps, doesnt seem to show enough to break into other roles

Firebrand may kill the second mesmer who’s not tanking, though all that depends on many things we currently have no idea about. Thinking about future metas seems pretty pointless with the currently available information.

Pointless, sure. But its fun to speculate based on the little information tidbits we do have.

Like we have all of the Firebrand traits/skills. Even looking at that, the place looks shaky at best unless we see some more drastic changes pre PoF. (Which again we likely will).

But let us have some fun here with early speculation as its the only hype we can have.

TexZero.7910:

CptAurellian.9537:

TexZero.7910:

Memser (Mirage) Not enough other tanks to push out chrono
Guardian (Firebrand) Probably still a mid tier dps, doesnt seem to show enough to break into other roles

Firebrand may kill the second mesmer who’s not tanking, though all that depends on many things we currently have no idea about. Thinking about future metas seems pretty pointless with the currently available information.

Pointless, sure. But its fun to speculate based on the little information tidbits we do have.

Like we have all of the Firebrand traits/skills. Even looking at that, the place looks shaky at best unless we see some more drastic changes pre PoF. (Which again we likely will).

But let us have some fun here with early speculation as its the only hype we can have.

I personally see Firebrand taking up a condi DPS slot because it can give out 10x burning stacks for all the other condi to use. Though if the DPS is high enough to make up for the loss of alacrity while providing 100% quickness uptime, you can replace a druid with a rev healer and probably get more out of it.

Druid will still be meta, warrior with banners will still be meta, everything else just comes down to number tweaks which we can’t really know till release.

https://imgur.com/a/KBwBS#BlxNVDG
For firebrand and quickness vs Chrono.

So sources of quickness on FB:
1) “Feel My Wrath”: 5 second base on 45 sec CD (Does have 20%CDR)
2) Liberator’s Vow: 2 seconds of aoe quickness on heal (12 sec ICD). The FB mantra heal gains a charge every 12 seconds so this lines up very well.
3) Stalwart speed: When you grant Aegis or Stability, grant 2 seconds of quicknes (5 sec ICD)

Assuming 100% quickness duration, no alacrity.
1) “FMW” is 10 every 36 seconds
2) Liberator’s Vow + Mantra heal is 4 seconds every 12.
This already is VERY easy 61% uptime on quickness for the team.

If stalwart speed is procced every 5 seconds, that’s 80% quickness uptime alone. Realistically proccing this once every 10 seconds is enough to hit 100% quickness uptime on a Raid team of 5. Big thing I want to mention is that this is a REALLY easy rotation.
Heal-6 every 12 seconds when the mantra charges up. Elite shout on CD. Somehow apply aegis or stability every 10 seconds which is not hard for a guardian to do. Their stability mantra has a 12 second recharge for aoe stability for example. It’ll probably do decent burning damage too. While I don’t know where it’ll be, it’s going to be better than Chrono dps.

What I think the meta will look like for casual groups/when distortion share isn’t needed.
Subgroup 1:
1) Chrono
2) Druid
3) Warrior(any elite spec, double banner)
4 & 5) 2 dps

Subgroup 2:
1) Firebrand
2) Ranger (of any variety although firebrand with Seraph gear can also heal so druid might not be taken)
3, 4, & 5) DPS

The second ranger is assuming spirits don’t get buffed to 10 targets. Spotter is meh in the end so if spirits are buffed, this is easy to drop. Reason I think 1 Chrono is “mandatory” is that alacrity isn’t just a direct DPS buff to the DPS classes but also an indirect buff to DPS classes via ensuring 100% (instead of 75-80%) on banners and better gotl and spirit uptime. Subgroup 2 will probably be better as condi. Loss of alacrity doesn’t hurt initiative for thief DPS nor energy for Rev condi DPS. Other classes are affected a bit more. Less certain on this. 2nd warrior is probably not needed as it looks like there are so many ways for a subgroup to get 25 might now. Idk if it’ll beat the current meta but it’s the closest I could see to an alternative meta choice.

No new rune or sigil info no actual gameplay of elite no info on how they perform withthe right gear for them. I think its early to talk about new metas and such.

I hope it doesn’t turn out that Weaver is by far the highest DPS in the game, because it’s probably going to be a very hard rotation. Top tier DPS + hard rotation = pugs become insufferable (currently pugs are VERY ok compared to old dungeons for example).

TexZero.7910:

Ranger (Soulbeast) Doubtful it can compete with druid without significant nerfs to druid first

It doesn’t have to compete with druid. Druid is good at what druid does, which is support. Soulbeast is not a support spec. Current condi ranger does not even use druid spec, so I’m guessing soulbeast will be the go to spec for condi rangers.

xarallei.4279:

TexZero.7910:

Ranger (Soulbeast) Doubtful it can compete with druid without significant nerfs to druid first

It doesn’t have to compete with druid. Druid is good at what druid does, which is support. Soulbeast is not a support spec. Current condi ranger does not even use druid spec, so I’m guessing soulbeast will be the go to spec for condi rangers.

Sure and that’s fair, but the question then becomes about the changes to condi that are upcoming and if that knocks base condi ranger down enough to either Require Soulbeast or even have a spot.

TexZero.7910:

xarallei.4279:

TexZero.7910:

Ranger (Soulbeast) Doubtful it can compete with druid without significant nerfs to druid first

It doesn’t have to compete with druid. Druid is good at what druid does, which is support. Soulbeast is not a support spec. Current condi ranger does not even use druid spec, so I’m guessing soulbeast will be the go to spec for condi rangers.

Sure and that’s fair, but the question then becomes about the changes to condi that are upcoming and if that knocks base condi ranger down enough to either Require Soulbeast or even have a spot.

Why not compaire soulbeast to any dps class instead of only compairing it to other ranger builds? Soulbeast might be a power dps on par with condi ranger so ye.. Also dont forget these condi nerfs happened to bring condi classes on the same lvl with power ones.

zealex.9410:

TexZero.7910:

xarallei.4279:

TexZero.7910:

Ranger (Soulbeast) Doubtful it can compete with druid without significant nerfs to druid first

It doesn’t have to compete with druid. Druid is good at what druid does, which is support. Soulbeast is not a support spec. Current condi ranger does not even use druid spec, so I’m guessing soulbeast will be the go to spec for condi rangers.

Sure and that’s fair, but the question then becomes about the changes to condi that are upcoming and if that knocks base condi ranger down enough to either Require Soulbeast or even have a spot.

Why not compaire soulbeast to any dps class instead of only compairing it to other ranger builds? Soulbeast might be a power dps on par with condi ranger so ye.. Also dont forget these condi nerfs happened to bring condi classes on the same lvl with power ones.

http://imgur.com/a/yOwJy Its actually a cond elite, look at traits 10% cond duration, poison and bleed on AA. So cond ranger meta will 100% sure use soul beast

OnizukaBR.8537:

zealex.9410:

TexZero.7910:

xarallei.4279:

TexZero.7910:

Ranger (Soulbeast) Doubtful it can compete with druid without significant nerfs to druid first

It doesn’t have to compete with druid. Druid is good at what druid does, which is support. Soulbeast is not a support spec. Current condi ranger does not even use druid spec, so I’m guessing soulbeast will be the go to spec for condi rangers.

Sure and that’s fair, but the question then becomes about the changes to condi that are upcoming and if that knocks base condi ranger down enough to either Require Soulbeast or even have a spot.

Why not compaire soulbeast to any dps class instead of only compairing it to other ranger builds? Soulbeast might be a power dps on par with condi ranger so ye.. Also dont forget these condi nerfs happened to bring condi classes on the same lvl with power ones.

http://imgur.com/a/yOwJy Its actually a cond elite, look at traits 10% cond duration, poison and bleed on AA. So cond ranger meta will 100% sure use soul beast

That trait is bad though. Especially for raiding, for it to be useful the boss would have to be nearly dead to begin with. All for a measly 10% ?

I could see it being better if it was foes had a less % health than you, but as its currently worded good luck using that for any significant portion of the fight.

TexZero.7910:

OnizukaBR.8537:

zealex.9410:

TexZero.7910:

xarallei.4279:

TexZero.7910:

Ranger (Soulbeast) Doubtful it can compete with druid without significant nerfs to druid first

It doesn’t have to compete with druid. Druid is good at what druid does, which is support. Soulbeast is not a support spec. Current condi ranger does not even use druid spec, so I’m guessing soulbeast will be the go to spec for condi rangers.

Sure and that’s fair, but the question then becomes about the changes to condi that are upcoming and if that knocks base condi ranger down enough to either Require Soulbeast or even have a spot.

Why not compaire soulbeast to any dps class instead of only compairing it to other ranger builds? Soulbeast might be a power dps on par with condi ranger so ye.. Also dont forget these condi nerfs happened to bring condi classes on the same lvl with power ones.

http://imgur.com/a/yOwJy Its actually a cond elite, look at traits 10% cond duration, poison and bleed on AA. So cond ranger meta will 100% sure use soul beast

That trait is bad though. Especially for raiding, for it to be useful the boss would have to be nearly dead to begin with. All for a measly 10% ?

I could see it being better if it was foes had a less % health than you, but as its currently worded good luck using that for any significant portion of the fight.

Feelsbad so another condi elite spec. And i hoped for a spec that buffs gs in some way.

zealex.9410:

Why not compaire soulbeast to any dps class instead of only compairing it to other ranger builds? Soulbeast might be a power dps on par with condi ranger so ye.. Also dont forget these condi nerfs happened to bring condi classes on the same lvl with power ones.

Also the reason i compare Ranger Specs to Ranger Specs is to get a good baseline as to where they will fit in currently. We already know where Ranger / Druid and Condi Druid sit, by comparing SB to these 3 it’s easier to see the tradeoffs and get a rough playing field for where SB will land relative to other classes.

I think another question about elite specs and raids is how the meta of the Heart of Thorns raids will change after the expansion, and how the Heart of Thorns elite specs will be required for the Path of Fire raids.

Since Heart of Thorns and Path of Fire are standalone, it means we’ll get to the point that players will be excluded from raid runs when they don’t have the “appropriate” expansion. This means that the new elite specs should contain specs similar to the old ones in some professions, otherwise it makes old expansions mandatory for Raids.

Imagine raiding without a Chronomancer or a Druid.

TexZero.7910:

OnizukaBR.8537:

zealex.9410:

TexZero.7910:

xarallei.4279:

TexZero.7910:

Ranger (Soulbeast) Doubtful it can compete with druid without significant nerfs to druid first

It doesn’t have to compete with druid. Druid is good at what druid does, which is support. Soulbeast is not a support spec. Current condi ranger does not even use druid spec, so I’m guessing soulbeast will be the go to spec for condi rangers.

Sure and that’s fair, but the question then becomes about the changes to condi that are upcoming and if that knocks base condi ranger down enough to either Require Soulbeast or even have a spot.

Why not compaire soulbeast to any dps class instead of only compairing it to other ranger builds? Soulbeast might be a power dps on par with condi ranger so ye.. Also dont forget these condi nerfs happened to bring condi classes on the same lvl with power ones.

http://imgur.com/a/yOwJy Its actually a cond elite, look at traits 10% cond duration, poison and bleed on AA. So cond ranger meta will 100% sure use soul beast

That trait is bad though. Especially for raiding, for it to be useful the boss would have to be nearly dead to begin with. All for a measly 10% ?

I could see it being better if it was foes had a less % health than you, but as its currently worded good luck using that for any significant portion of the fight.

The trait will be most likely percentage based. Otherwise it is just bad in every gamemode if you play against a more tanky build.

Also the reason i compare Ranger Specs to Ranger Specs is to get a good baseline as to where they will fit in currently. We already know where Ranger / Druid and Condi Druid sit, by comparing SB to these 3 it’s easier to see the tradeoffs and get a rough playing field for where SB will land relative to other classes.

You compare Elite specialisations to other specialisations that fill the same role, not to others of the same class. Soulbeast is DPS with some support, it doesn’t compete with druid in any way.

zealex.9410

Feelsbad so another condi elite spec. And i hoped for a spec that buffs gs in some way.

Why does everyone assume that Soulbeast will be condition only? Because of the dagger? Reaper didn’t use greatsword in the meta builds for a long time.

The trait in question also promotes power builds. From the information we got it looks more than a general DPS specialisation than condition only. The elite stance is power based and has no place in a condition build other than group support with one of the grandmaster traits.

maddoctor.2738:

I think another question about elite specs and raids is how the meta of the Heart of Thorns raids will change after the expansion, and how the Heart of Thorns elite specs will be required for the Path of Fire raids.

Since Heart of Thorns and Path of Fire are standalone, it means we’ll get to the point that players will be excluded from raid runs when they don’t have the “appropriate” expansion. This means that the new elite specs should contain specs similar to the old ones in some professions, otherwise it makes old expansions mandatory for Raids.

Imagine raiding without a Chronomancer or a Druid.

That’s a very good point! If a Mesmer wants to raid but doesn’t have HOT, and thus no Chrono, are they screwed? Hmmm…..this shall be interesting indeed!

maxwelgm.4315:

I hope it doesn’t turn out that Weaver is by far the highest DPS in the game, because it’s probably going to be a very hard rotation. Top tier DPS + hard rotation = pugs become insufferable (currently pugs are VERY ok compared to old dungeons for example).

Hard dps rotation has to be top-tier dps or it will be useless. What you’re worried about is being top dps with a big margin.

Back to topic, quickness on Firebrand looks good, but what about alacrity?

Miellyn.6847:

You compare Elite specialisations to other specialisations that fill the same role, not to others of the same class. Soulbeast is DPS with some support, it doesn’t compete with druid in any way.

Or i can compare, as i already stated Ranger to Ranger. We already have a decent baseline for where Ranger Sits. Considering Soulbeast has to directly compete for the 3rd trait line it first has to compete with Ranger itself. Knowing this we can pretty safely place it relative to the others by doing the exact same thing across the board.

I don’t think there is much point comparing it to druid since it’s a spec that fulfills an entirely different role from druid. Druids are taken for support. SB seems very condi focused with both the new mh dagger and its traits. So, I think it’s more about how it holds up against baseline condi ranger. I don’t think the upcoming nerfs to consumables are going to make the condi meta go away at all. Of course, we don’t know what else they have in store for us in the upcoming balance patch. Hell, they might nerf baseline condi rangers to make SB more appealing for condi rangers to take.

TexZero.7910:

Miellyn.6847:

You compare Elite specialisations to other specialisations that fill the same role, not to others of the same class. Soulbeast is DPS with some support, it doesn’t compete with druid in any way.

Or i can compare, as i already stated Ranger to Ranger. We already have a decent baseline for where Ranger Sits. Considering Soulbeast has to directly compete for the 3rd trait line it first has to compete with Ranger itself. Knowing this we can pretty safely place it relative to the others by doing the exact same thing across the board.

It competes with beastmastery. Skirmishing is mandatory for every PvE build in the current state, Wilderness Survival for condi builds and Marksmanship for power builds, which aren’t competetiv anyway right now. Beastmastery doesn’t bring that much to the table damagewise so it’s a safe bet to say it will be meta for every damage build und competes with other damage builds from other classes and not ranger itself.

Miellyn.6847:

TexZero.7910:

Miellyn.6847:

You compare Elite specialisations to other specialisations that fill the same role, not to others of the same class. Soulbeast is DPS with some support, it doesn’t compete with druid in any way.

Or i can compare, as i already stated Ranger to Ranger. We already have a decent baseline for where Ranger Sits. Considering Soulbeast has to directly compete for the 3rd trait line it first has to compete with Ranger itself. Knowing this we can pretty safely place it relative to the others by doing the exact same thing across the board.

It competes with beastmastery. Skirmishing is mandatory for every PvE build in the current state, Wilderness Survival for condi builds and Marksmanship for power builds, which aren’t competetiv anyway right now. Beastmastery doesn’t bring that much to the table damagewise so it’s a safe bet to say it will be meta for every damage build und competes with other damage builds from other classes and not ranger itself.

Implying it wont have synergy with BM making the other two option the slot competitors thus lowering the effective damage putting it below baseline ranger…..

But you know that’s what happens when you don’t look at the whole picture. Compare apples to apples first before you compare the apple to oranges. It’s common sense here.

TexZero.7910:

Miellyn.6847:

TexZero.7910:

Miellyn.6847:

You compare Elite specialisations to other specialisations that fill the same role, not to others of the same class. Soulbeast is DPS with some support, it doesn’t compete with druid in any way.

Or i can compare, as i already stated Ranger to Ranger. We already have a decent baseline for where Ranger Sits. Considering Soulbeast has to directly compete for the 3rd trait line it first has to compete with Ranger itself. Knowing this we can pretty safely place it relative to the others by doing the exact same thing across the board.

It competes with beastmastery. Skirmishing is mandatory for every PvE build in the current state, Wilderness Survival for condi builds and Marksmanship for power builds, which aren’t competetiv anyway right now. Beastmastery doesn’t bring that much to the table damagewise so it’s a safe bet to say it will be meta for every damage build und competes with other damage builds from other classes and not ranger itself.

Implying it wont have synergy with BM making the other two option the slot competitors thus lowering the effective damage putting it below baseline ranger…..

But you know that’s what happens when you don’t look at the whole picture. Compare apples to apples first before you compare the apple to oranges. It’s common sense here.

If the synergy puts the complete damage output below base ranger you can still ignore Beastmastery and go Wilderness Survival, Skirmishing and Soulbeast. It’s highly unlikely that Soulbeast will bring less damage increase than Beastmastery for the current condi ranger. The grandmaster trait alone invalidates Beastmastery after the consumable nerfs if it’s percantage based.
But lets wait until the balance patch on tuesday and the pvp preview of the specialisations.

I asked this in the Warrior thread but am also curious from a raiding point of view so will post here as well:

“So from the looks of things is my viper set(i.e. Condi PS) going to obsolete? Coming from a strictly pve point of view and of course using the new elite, seems to be a power build, or am I seeing it wrong?”

Soubeast weapon set and traits have alot of condi infuences.

Joxer.6024:

I asked this in the Warrior thread but am also curious from a raiding point of view so will post here as well:

“So from the looks of things is my viper set(i.e. Condi PS) going to obsolete? Coming from a strictly pve point of view and of course using the new elite, seems to be a power build, or am I seeing it wrong?”

Maybe you wait until the final release of the expac and even then you don’t know about the nerf or buff hammer some weeks later.
I’d rather recommend you to farm gold and be ready to craft a new gear when it comes to the actual benchmarks.

Vinceman.4572:

Joxer.6024:

I asked this in the Warrior thread but am also curious from a raiding point of view so will post here as well:

“So from the looks of things is my viper set(i.e. Condi PS) going to obsolete? Coming from a strictly pve point of view and of course using the new elite, seems to be a power build, or am I seeing it wrong?”

Maybe you wait until the final release of the expac and even then you don’t know about the nerf or buff hammer some weeks later.
I’d rather recommend you to farm gold and be ready to craft a new gear when it comes to the actual benchmarks.

yea, good thinking! better to be ready for whatever may come down the pipe. cheers!