Guild Wars 2

Hello!

What I’m about to post has been mentioned in a couple of Reddit posts already, but due to its controversial nature the posts have been pushed up front only to get downvoted. To some point the community there was right, that content should be posted here, for a group of PvE players to see, discuss, share ideas.

Personally, and quite a few other raiders believe that raids at the moment are not as rewarding as other easier, more casual PvE open content is (speaking about pure rewards, no ‘’satisfaction’’). Anyone who has been around for a while knows that maps like Silverwastes and all HoT released areas, including Bloodstone Fen are pretty profitable and do not require any special skillsets nor effort to achieve a decent level of profit. For example Tarir multi loot can give from casual 30 ectos to ‘’hardcore’’ 100 ectos per run and it only takes for about 20 minutes or less. As for the raids, they are supposed to be an end-game content which requires a higher level of skills than any open mats, meta events, dungeons, FoTM, and the weekly rewards do reflect that to some point (I’d rather skip the fact that 95% of the drops are trash). The problem a lot of be it casual, semi-hardcore or hardcore raiders are faced with, is the fact that after a weekly clear there is not much incentive to do a second or even third run, simply because not many raiders want to spend hours only to get a few boxes of green and blue loot, which doesn’t even cover the food expenses. Right now only people I see re-doing raids are dedicated raiders who enjoy the content, test new stuff and people helping their friends.

Because I don’t want to only bash and trash, I’d suggest a few changes or ideas to work on so that we can improve the whole matter. At this point I’d like to copy/pasta a few points a guildie came up with that would incentivise more people to repeat raids (resulting in more parties on LFG, more opportunity for newer players to get in, more experienced raiding community), while adding a few of my own ideas and thoughts.

- After killing a boss (anytime), there should be a chest that would work the same way as it does now. 1 gold for older wings and 2 gold for new wings, including chance to drop exotics and rares. Anyone who does weekly raids knows that keeping those chests unlimited or daily even, would not break the economy, since most of the exotics are worth less than 60 silver, and all the rares from a single wing yield maybe 5 ectos.

- To address the special rewards in the likes of ghostly infusions, portals, ascended gear, I would personally make them daily loot, same way as FoTM (with decrease of chance to drop a Ghostly Infusion). Why is that? At the moment I feel like FoTM has a higher chance of dropping Ascended gear than raids and plenty of people have their mule characters filled with useless ascended gear. Not to mention that kind of gear is account bound so no real influence on other players (except if you get really lucky with salvage). Or perhaps keep helmet, shoulder, gloves, boots pieces as a drop from FoTM and chests, leggings as a raid drop, just an idea.

- A really important point here, re-runs of raids at the moment serve only as boss practice runs or something to do with guildies. I guarantee you nobody does re-runs for the loot. While if the loot got a bit better or the daily/weekly limitations removed, it would spark incentive in general raiding community to attempt more raids! Lets jump back to first 3 years of GW2, whole dungeon run in 3+ hours could add up to 50g per person and it was not an economy breaker, neither would unlimited raid rewards be. Not to mention not every person that does raids would actually complete all 3 wings multiple times, yet would get rewarded and incentivised if they actually tried (rather than mindlessly farming ML or some other brain afk meta maps).

This set of changes would benefit the general PvE and raid community in a few ways. First off like I mentioned before, more people attempting raids, increasing general raiding community and more opportunity for newer players to try raids via LFG or guilds. Those who are already raiding would do raids more often, with that increase their skills and knowledge, push for better times and create somewhat of a competitive PvE content. Not to mention rewards and the feeling of actually getting fairly rewarded for time spent. If at this moment we jump back to Guild Wars 1, it has plenty of end game content and the rewards are farmable basically every second (if you possess the skills). From FoW, UW, DoA, Topk and other dungeons, the rewards were all ‘’unlocked’’ and rewarded the players with a chance to win unique skins, profit with general crafting mats, etc. Like in raids nowadays, not every group actually made it to the end. And to put minds at ease, unlimited rewards would not mean hardcore raid guilds would mindlessly farm via this method, because lets face it 6 gold from wing 1 and 2 and 6 gold from wing 3 is not that much money for 2+ hours of work. You would literally make more money in dead end content, dungeons.
At the end of the day, if we look at the current state of raids we can conclude they offer somewhat under 15g of profit per 2+ hours of play PER WEEK, about 3-5 gold for re-runs. Personally I miss the feeling that I got when we finished the likes of DoA or FoW and getting a crack at the chance to get a special, rewarding skin. Right now it’s just those few blues and greens and that’s it.

Please do share your ideas, constructive criticism, your views and hopefully developers see the problem and address it.

While I agree that there currently is an issue with people not rerunning the content beyond rewards, if Anet actually continues with raids so that there being 2hrs of content instead down the road there could be 6~12hrs of content and that would become much harder for even active raiders to do daily. The problem is more of an issue right now with only one raid out, so while it makes sense to change it right now it wouldn’t make sense once more raids were added.
As far as ascended loot, between my 3 accounts I clear on semi regularly I get between 4 and 12 use-able ascended drops a week from raids, where from fractals I more often than not get useless rings or earrings so I think the drops in that regard are fine.
I’d rather see more unique skins and such added to raids over more ascended drops, though I will say getting ~2g per boss per day or per kill does make sense. However to be fair as it stands with the bags you get ~3g per kill as it is if you work for it.

It’s true that down the road when there are more wings out, it would become impossible to get all the kills daily. But that doesn’t mean they should limit the rewards and preventing people to actually profit and get rewarded for playing the content. Same way as you dont get capped at 2 WvW keep chests or level up chests, same way as you don’t get capped at 1 PvP win.

As for the ascended loot, you must be pretty lucky to get that plenty asc loot from raids. Personally all my stuff came from fractals and maybe 10% from raids.

The most challenging content in the game should be the most rewarding content in the game.

End of story.

I think the rewards are very rewarding already. No need to buff them except maybe a daily chest with 1 or 2 Gold per boss.

It’s the only content in the game that gives the possibility to create legendary armor.
It’s enough deal with it.
99% of casuals know once you got that legendary armor you won’t give a crap about
raid rewards or even the whole raid content on it owns.You wil go back to silverwastes.

I would run the raid stuff weekly, but I got everything I need from them, so I stopped. It isn’t that they are unrewarding, so much that I prefer something less limiting. Running the same build every time to do the same content gets boring. I’d much rather complete content in a more relaxed setting.

Reverze.7180:

It’s the only content in the game that gives the possibility to create legendary armor.
It’s enough deal with it.
99% of casuals know once you got that legendary armor you won’t give a crap about
raid rewards or even the whole raid content on it owns.You wil go back to silverwastes.

What? I don’t think you understand the community that raids at all. People raid because it’s fun. But, they want rewards so they’re properly rewarded for their time.

Raids are already plenty rewarding on your first pass through, a more or less guarenteed ascended piece each week (longer if you want one of the unique ones), and a chance at more, plus some commodities you can liquidate for gold. It’s solid.

The issue is after that initial run there’s not a great reward for repeating it. It’s not that bad, but it’s sort of like old fractals, it’s just far from par. And, that’s what should be remedied. How to do that? well, kitten I don’t know.

I love to raid because they’re fun. They’re what the game was missing, and especially so with fractals being neutered at this point. I personally don’t believe that the hardest content needs more rewards than the ‘farm’ content (AB, SW, whatever) but it should be pretty close to equal. And, that’s just not the case. Same reason why I think while WvW rewards have gotten MUCH better, I still feel they need a little work (fixing the fact that you can spend the majority of your time afk and soaking up rewards first). You shouldn’t have to trade in progression for fun, and that’s the situation this thread is trying to address.

Warcry.1596:

I would run the raid stuff weekly, but I got everything I need from them, so I stopped. It isn’t that they are unrewarding, so much that I prefer something less limiting. Running the same build every time to do the same content gets boring. I’d much rather complete content in a more relaxed setting.

I almost never run the same thing twice in a row on a raid(only when I want more practice). I have most things set up. I’ve played in the last week in raids: Condi PS War, Power PS War, Power Scrapper(the raid leader asked :/), Condi Scrapper, Condi Engi, Power Engi, Condi Druid, Magi Druid, Staff Ele(only one I just don’t like, but again asked for it), Condi Necro, Condi Reaper, D/D Thief, and Staff Daredevil.

Quite a variety of things

The only change that I’d like to see is a reward focused on helping people that dont already have the weekly kill.

Lets say that if a group kill á boss (any of them) and 1 in the group dont already have the weekly kill. Then the 9 others get a bonus of some kind (lets say 1 rare or whatever).
If there are 2 people in the group without the kill. The reward to the other 8 are abit larger. etc.

This will greatly incentivize exp. raiders to help others with kills.

Jerus.4350:

Warcry.1596:

I would run the raid stuff weekly, but I got everything I need from them, so I stopped. It isn’t that they are unrewarding, so much that I prefer something less limiting. Running the same build every time to do the same content gets boring. I’d much rather complete content in a more relaxed setting.

I almost never run the same thing twice in a row on a raid(only when I want more practice). I have most things set up. I’ve played in the last week in raids: Condi PS War, Power PS War, Power Scrapper(the raid leader asked :/), Condi Scrapper, Condi Engi, Power Engi, Condi Druid, Magi Druid, Staff Ele(only one I just don’t like, but again asked for it), Condi Necro, Condi Reaper, D/D Thief, and Staff Daredevil.

Quite a variety of things

I wasn’t clear in my original post, my fault. I meant just always some form of DPS role. I don’t find it fun, I don’t find it challenging to play that way. Or rather, challenging in the way I enjoy. I generally play Power Necro, because it’s what I love and grew accustomed to. But the setting of HAVING to play full DPS is what I don’t enjoy. Sure, it adds challenge, but there are other ways of adding challenge without that. I much prefer playing any other content and having the capability of completing the entire thing using whatever equipment I want to use.

Warcry.1596:

Jerus.4350:

Warcry.1596:

I would run the raid stuff weekly, but I got everything I need from them, so I stopped. It isn’t that they are unrewarding, so much that I prefer something less limiting. Running the same build every time to do the same content gets boring. I’d much rather complete content in a more relaxed setting.

I almost never run the same thing twice in a row on a raid(only when I want more practice). I have most things set up. I’ve played in the last week in raids: Condi PS War, Power PS War, Power Scrapper(the raid leader asked :/), Condi Scrapper, Condi Engi, Power Engi, Condi Druid, Magi Druid, Staff Ele(only one I just don’t like, but again asked for it), Condi Necro, Condi Reaper, D/D Thief, and Staff Daredevil.

Quite a variety of things

I wasn’t clear in my original post, my fault. I meant just always some form of DPS role. I don’t find it fun, I don’t find it challenging to play that way. Or rather, challenging in the way I enjoy. I generally play Power Necro, because it’s what I love and grew accustomed to. But the setting of HAVING to play full DPS is what I don’t enjoy. Sure, it adds challenge, but there are other ways of adding challenge without that. I much prefer playing any other content and having the capability of completing the entire thing using whatever equipment I want to use.

But, that’s what raids added to this game, and what they’ve shifted fractals for. Healing is now a thing, and toughness tanking in raids is actually very consistent (wish that would get ported to SOME fractals).

Obviously doing as much damage as possible is always going to be good, it’s the same way in other games, you create your defensive base and then stack damage. Defensive caps, either at being just enough or enough to feel comfortable, then from there what else are you going to add? Damage never caps because you can always do things faster.

Anyways, that’s getting a little off. We bring 2 healers usually to raids, and a tank. Lots of support roles that sacrifice personal dps for better buffs both offense and defense. I think they’ve found a nice balance. Give Druid a try, or Condi necro with Blood Magic is something I love because it’s a lot of picking people up and some support to take pressure off of people. It’s a great build that supplies enough DPS to be acceptable but with a leaning towards more support.

I think you’re not getting what I’m saying

Two healers and one tank, what are the other 7? As much damage as possible because that’s what is required by the way the content works. In Fractals I can bring 5 full damage, or 5 non damage, or a mix of however I want and still complete it the same. THAT is where my frustration lies. I can’t bring whatever I want because the design doesn’t allow it to be successful. The other content does allow for it, and that is why I prefer it.

It’s not inherently bad that it requires full damage, it just makes it boring and repetitive. Doing Mai Trin scale 100 in full damage one day, and then full condi the next, and then being tanky as hell another day IS fun for me. Because, while some builds may be significantly slower than others, it keeps it fresh and exciting for me.

Pls no de-rail.
Chaos put it well, hardest content should have best (“better” in this case) rewards. I highly doubt it once people will have obtained legendary armor, the raids will be forgotten. In my original post you can get a sense of where raids are right now. Pretty popular but only for a period of time, if you dont count dedicated raiders. And thats a problem. If EB/sPvP/Tarir/eotn/… can have unlimited rewards why not do the same for raids? I bet pvpers would mind a lot if the rewards were capped at weekly win for each map. At the same time it wouldnt mean raid re-runners would get vast ammounts of gold, on the contrary, they would get what they deserve for time spent. Like if you want to get kitten tons of cash you go to tarir ML/ flip tp, we just want raid re-runs to be worth a bit more than just souce of blues and greens and to be treated like the content it was ment to be (hard end game and not some “thing yet to do this week”).

pranker.3748:

Pls no de-rail.
Chaos put it well, hardest content should have best (“better” in this case) rewards. I highly doubt it once people will have obtained legendary armor, the raids will be forgotten. In my original post you can get a sense of where raids are right now. Pretty popular but only for a period of time, if you dont count dedicated raiders. And thats a problem. If EB/sPvP/Tarir/eotn/… can have unlimited rewards why not do the same for raids? I bet pvpers would mind a lot if the rewards were capped at weekly win for each map. At the same time it wouldnt mean raid re-runners would get vast ammounts of gold, on the contrary, they would get what they deserve for time spent. Like if you want to get kitten tons of cash you go to tarir ML/ flip tp, we just want raid re-runs to be worth a bit more than just souce of blues and greens and to be treated like the content it was ment to be (hard end game and not some “thing yet to do this week”).

Sorry for the derail :/

I think it’s important to question why lockouts were put in content in the first place. Look at the old game, where people just chained CoF over and over. Lockouts were put in to prevent people from farming just the easiest/fastest option. In that sense they’re good.

So if removing lockouts is the answer, then I think the next question would be ’why do Matthias when you can just do Gorseval again?"

re-clears should just drop t6 bags 2-5 of them per boss cause they are needed for legendary armor anyways and droping materials doesn’t inflate the economy which seems to be anets main concern

perry.9645:

re-clears should just drop t6 bags 2-5 of them per boss cause they are needed for legendary armor anyways and droping materials doesn’t inflate the economy which seems to be anets main concern

+1

Jerus.4350:

Sorry for the derail :/

I think it’s important to question why lockouts were put in content in the first place. Look at the old game, where people just chained CoF over and over. Lockouts were put in to prevent people from farming just the easiest/fastest option. In that sense they’re good.

So if removing lockouts is the answer, then I think the next question would be ’why do Matthias when you can just do Gorseval again?"

I absolutely agree. But if Anet is to take that philosophy towards PvE content, then they NEED to put restrictions on rewards for new HoT maps as well. Instead those maps are totally unlimited rewards wise while raiders get almost nothing for completing hardcore end game content. Official stance for the PvE content atm is cheering for casual open world events, while they want to hype the population with raid releases and kittenty limitations on rewards. It’s a crime to have elite end game content yield literally kitten on re-runs, while weekly runs are not far from that and on the other hand brain afk Tarir ML/Silverwastes which I can do while watching series and get kitten tons of loot + they are repeatable per hour!

Also I believe cof p1 or arah p3 1st bosses farm (like the early days) could not happen in raids. It still takes roughly 10 minutes to complete a boss and once you kill it, you would have to search for an opener. Not to mention some teams failing, then time to re-open, clear pre-events etc etc. 2g + rewards do not seem that bad for 15min+ of killing ’’hardest’’ bosses in game.
___________________________________________________

re-clears should just drop t6 bags 2-5 of them per boss cause they are needed for legendary armor anyways and droping materials doesn’t inflate the economy which seems to be anets main concern

I guess it would be a first step in the right direction.

I’d slightly increase the rewards for the weekly raid clear as well as increase the amount of gold and materials gained by re-running the raid.
Additionally, changes to the weekly shard cap system could be made.
My idea would be to increase the shards rewarded for killing each boss the first time and then have it lowered by half with each subsequently kill. This would make re-runs rewarding and yet stop people from killing the same boss over and over again for easy shards.
Only those gained through continuous failure should have a hard-cap. Still takes quite a while to cap those unless you are trying to abuse the system for easy rewards.

In any case, I fail to see why good rewards for re-running raids would be a problem.
As if some groups being able to clear it multiple times per day (most can’t even without any weekly system) would change anything. Those able to play all day can already simply farm HoT maps or anything similar and greatly outfarm those who don’t.
Or they can stack up an insane amount of gathering mules if people have enough time on their hands.

On the contrary, this would lead to an increased amount of raiding and increased chances for new players to get into raids. Many players would still only do the full raid once per week while others might end up pugging a couple over the rest of the week if they feel like it. More runs outside static groups allows others to get into those.

Lastly, the idea that raids will die as soon as people aquired their legendary armor is simply silly. Most of us already finished everything needed long ago to have any reason to raid currently if that was the case.

Chaos.5072:

The most challenging content in the game should be the most rewarding content in the game.

End of story.

No. That would make the problem of raids being designed for a small minority of the population even greater.
Or did you mean pvp? Which at the competitive level is far more challenging than raids?

pranker.3748:

In my original post you can get a sense of where raids are right now. Pretty popular but only for a period of time, if you dont count dedicated raiders. And thats a problem. If EB/sPvP/Tarir/eotn/… can have unlimited rewards why not do the same for raids?

If you want Raids to be more popular and more rewarding, make them more accessible first.

So, if raids are there to challenge you, they shouldn’t be at the same time a farm content. People should play raids because they like them, not because they want to get the rewards. Yes, they should have decent rewards (because we already know that rewardless content will end up abandoned no matter how liked it is), but it shouldn’t be so good to become a primary reason for people to be interested in them.

If there’s not enough people liking them even then… well, then there’s not enough reason to keep that content supported.

pranker.3748:

same way as you don’t get capped at 1 PvP win.

sPvP has a daily coin reward cap.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Structured_PvP#Rewards

Many other content (dungeons, open world …) has daily reward caps as well.

Shylock.4653:

pranker.3748:

same way as you don’t get capped at 1 PvP win.

sPvP has a daily coin reward cap.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Structured_PvP#Rewards

Many other content (dungeons, open world …) has daily reward caps as well.

Raids have weekly reward cap.

I marked the key words for you

Shylock.4653:

pranker.3748:

same way as you don’t get capped at 1 PvP win.

sPvP has a daily coin reward cap.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Structured_PvP#Rewards

Many other content (dungeons, open world …) has daily reward caps as well.

None of them have a weekly cap. I bet hell would break loose if you saw 1 win per map per week cap in sPvP
And what you mentioned just supports the whole idea to remove the cap or introduce better rewards. Much easier content (dungeons/fotm) have daily rewards which in most cases are better than weekly raid rewards (except if you get really lucky with ghostly infusion and that’s a once in a life occurrance). So easy content = daily restrictions = more profit vs. raids = weekly cap = medium/low worth of loot and re-runs = kitten.

An extra 1-2g whether it be flat or maybe a few more bags from repeat daily only kills might be sufficient.

But bear in mind the raid currency is still used to buy Ascended Equipment, for something that raiders enjoy getting full ascended through raiding is a fairly decent perk that only Fractals compete heavily with (Fractals being far more gold earned).

As more raids do get added, I also do not believe Forsaken Thicket will be forgotten, aside from the ascended equipment I mentioned, there are a few unique and very wanted skins from there that people will farm shards for. Gorseval’s Infusion is expensive for instance, having an infusion like that in every raid will give raiders incentive to raid old raids for a long time.

Plus, old raids serve as training for newcomers.

I think they could Bird the reward idc about Gold , ghostly and li’s , but i like the feeling of killing a Boss and get Loot , i dont think that there is a weekly cap for asc stuff

Zanjii.8214:

I think they could Bird the reward idc about Gold , ghostly and li’s , but i like the feeling of killing a Boss and get Loot , i dont think that there is a weekly cap for asc stuff

I bet you meant buff xD But yeah, I always mention gw1 since every ’’dungeon’’ and elite area gave a chest after completing, and a lot of people got somewhat addicted to that. Felt awesome anticipating the loot, and occasionally getting surprised with great skins etc. that you could sell for profit.

Astralporing.1957:

Chaos.5072:

The most challenging content in the game should be the most rewarding content in the game.

End of story.

No. That would make the problem of raids being designed for a small minority of the population even greater.
Or did you mean pvp? Which at the competitive level is far more challenging than raids?

how about the thousands of dollars pvp players can earn? yeah sure i would like some dollars for raiding as well

I don’t think the rewards are necessarily bad when you defeat a raid boss the first time for the weak, the weekly lockout is quite annoying tbh.
And if you want to help out guildies/help pugs get their kills you even have to pay for it basically as food and stuff cost alot.
Instead of a weekly lockout have the possibility to complete the raid with 3 different characters per week to get full rewards on each of these characters (Legendary insight only once per boss a week).
Guilds who run raids more than once a week get rewarded, and you have an incentive to help out pugs/the guildie who had a tight schedule this week and still needs kills without loosing gold.
It would also be an incentive for players to learn more than 1 class.

Coconut.7082:

Shylock.4653:

pranker.3748:

same way as you don’t get capped at 1 PvP win.

sPvP has a daily coin reward cap.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Structured_PvP#Rewards

Many other content (dungeons, open world …) has daily reward caps as well.

Raids have weekly reward cap.

I marked the key words for you

Would a daily cap of 1 wing make it any better for you? ;-)

I don’t say that these caps are good but the OP make it look like caps for raids are something special/unique and they are not.

Shylock.4653:

Coconut.7082:

Shylock.4653:

pranker.3748:

same way as you don’t get capped at 1 PvP win.

sPvP has a daily coin reward cap.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Structured_PvP#Rewards

Many other content (dungeons, open world …) has daily reward caps as well.

Raids have weekly reward cap.

I marked the key words for you

Would a daily cap of 1 wing make it any better for you? ;-)

I don’t say that these caps are good but the OP make it look like caps for raids are something special/unique and they are not.

No, because being able to receive all the current rewards on a daily basis sounds like too much.
What we do need is to be able to receive something a little better than those green/blue bags you get per kill (which TBH feel more like a punishments, having to sort all the trash loot in those bags).

They are special/unique, they are 6 days longer than the other caps you brought as an example.

Coconut.7082:

What we do need is to be able to receive something a little better than those green/blue bags you get per kill (which TBH feel more like a punishments, having to sort all the trash loot in those bags).

That’s something we need for nearly every area of the game. After playing a little while your whole inventory is full of worthless junk.

Honestly? I think having done it for so long that raid rewards are pretty great as-is. You get a guaranteed exotic every kill which for me averages pretty high in value between great sigils/runes and high-value stat combinations. Magnetite shards have a lot of effective value in gold either in ascended gear, skins, or gold. Finally, you have a chance to just get ascended stuff for free, and the 2g from the kill is nothing to scoff at either.

Now while I agree that re-running a boss isn’t very rewarding, I think the idea is to discourage re-running bosses to reduce the potential for burnout. Eventually, they’ll have a very large number of bosses to run across 2+ raids and it’ll be very difficult for a majority of players to clear everything in a given week. I think it’ll work out in the end.

That all said, I wish Fractals had similar usages for fractal relics as Raids have for magnetite shards.

perry.9645:

Chaos.5072:

The most challenging content in the game should be the most rewarding content in the game.

End of story.

Astralporing.1957:

No. That would make the problem of raids being designed for a small minority of the population even greater.
Or did you mean pvp? Which at the competitive level is far more challenging than raids?

how about the thousands of dollars pvp players can earn? yeah sure i would like some dollars for raiding as well

Those rewards are sponsor-based and not part of the game itself. Apparently there’s noone interested enough in raids to sponsor them the same way.

If we consider the game itself, then pvp is way underrewarding compared to the challenge it provides (and that’s even when top level pvp is way, way more challenging than raids). I haven’t seen Chaos, OP or you complaining about it, so it seems neither of you is really about increasing rewards for “most challenging content”, but merely increasing rewards for content you, personally, like.

Astralporing.1957:

perry.9645:

Chaos.5072:

The most challenging content in the game should be the most rewarding content in the game.

End of story.

Astralporing.1957:

No. That would make the problem of raids being designed for a small minority of the population even greater.
Or did you mean pvp? Which at the competitive level is far more challenging than raids?

how about the thousands of dollars pvp players can earn? yeah sure i would like some dollars for raiding as well

Those rewards are sponsor-based and not part of the game itself. Apparently there’s noone interested enough in raids to sponsor them the same way.

If we consider the game itself, then pvp is way underrewarding compared to the challenge it provides (and that’s even when top level pvp is way, way more challenging than raids). I haven’t seen Chaos, OP or you complaining about it, so it seems neither of you is really about increasing rewards for “most challenging content”, but merely increasing rewards for content you, personally, like.

The challenge from PvP is derived from the players, not the content itself. Comparing the human brain to AI is beyond delusional. By your own definition the “most challenging game mode” is already the most rewarding, since pro level players get to compete for large sums of real world money.

And while we’re on the subject, that level of PvP is fsr more exclusionary than raids will ever be.

Astralporing.1957:

perry.9645:

Chaos.5072:

The most challenging content in the game should be the most rewarding content in the game.

End of story.

Astralporing.1957:

No. That would make the problem of raids being designed for a small minority of the population even greater.
Or did you mean pvp? Which at the competitive level is far more challenging than raids?

how about the thousands of dollars pvp players can earn? yeah sure i would like some dollars for raiding as well

Those rewards are sponsor-based and not part of the game itself. Apparently there’s noone interested enough in raids to sponsor them the same way.

If we consider the game itself, then pvp is way underrewarding compared to the challenge it provides (and that’s even when top level pvp is way, way more challenging than raids). I haven’t seen Chaos, OP or you complaining about it, so it seems neither of you is really about increasing rewards for “most challenging content”, but merely increasing rewards for content you, personally, like.

That is true, none of us showed the desire to increase rewards for PvP and that’s probably because we dont have any major interest in PvP and PvP offers great deal of rewards as is, not to mention regular seasons. Also nobody is arguing against your idea that PvP is under rewarding, rather stating raids are even lower beyond what apparently PvP is. Also you have not mentioned the fact that none of us 3 went on PvP forum and complained how certain aspects in PvP be it match making/rewards/balance need nerfing nor did we shut down any ideas about possible fixes.

I prefer minding my own business and taking part in contributing in an area of game I like (raiding) and not interfering with other aspects. While on the other hand I’ve noticed a lot of non-raiders kittenpost raid posts either here or on reddit 24/7. You tell me whats better

The weekly raid rewards are fine and I think they should stay like it is now. Though daily rewards would be nice. This could be done with somekind of Daily raid achievements, where for example you have to kill VG, or do Slippery Slubling achievement or similar. Every day they reset and other set daily achievements are available. It keeps the raiding fresh, and somewhat different difficulties can be implemented with the daily achievements (low man kills or kill boss X within 4 min or something like that). Also different reward scales can be implemented that is related to the daily’s achievement difficulty.

But what something that needs to be implemented in the raids at this moment (it should already have been in the game tbh) is a option to reset your raid instances once you cleared them. The game is keeping people from doing raids multiple times a week which is a bad thing for the raid community. I know you can enter them with pugs but if you want to do it again with your static raid group you will need to find someone that can open the instance etc etc.

150 shards: weekly.
individual boss chests: daily.

Possibly with added: can open wing to any boss^. Since they would reset daily now and it would make getting to sab/matt/xera much more difficult for many.

^Requires clear up to that boss at least once to open?

Sadly I still see requiring to find 9 other players the biggest problem with raiding, not the loot. This would alleviate some problems, for a while but risks burnout much faster.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

150 shards: weekly.
individual boss chests: daily.

Possibly with added: can open wing to any boss^. Since they would reset daily now and it would make getting to sab/matt/xera much more difficult for many.

^Requires clear up to that boss at least once to open?

Sadly I still see requiring to find 9 other players the biggest problem with raiding, not the loot. This would alleviate some problems, for a while but risks burnout much faster.

100% agree on shard cap! The daily reset would probably be turn off for some people struggling to make a full clear, so might as well just leave it as it is and after the wing has been cleared it resets.

Other than that I’d prefer to quit the content because of burnout than because of incapability of Anet to create satisfying and ’’fair’’ (loot wise) content.

pranker.3748:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

150 shards: weekly.
individual boss chests: daily.

Possibly with added: can open wing to any boss^. Since they would reset daily now and it would make getting to sab/matt/xera much more difficult for many.

^Requires clear up to that boss at least once to open?

Sadly I still see requiring to find 9 other players the biggest problem with raiding, not the loot. This would alleviate some problems, for a while but risks burnout much faster.

100% agree on shard cap! The daily reset would probably be turn off for some people struggling to make a full clear, so might as well just leave it as it is and after the wing has been cleared it resets.

Other than that I’d prefer to quit the content because of burnout than because of incapability of Anet to create satisfying and ’’fair’’ (loot wise) content.

I actually think a daily shard cap and a weekly loot cap could work too.

Regardless of what they do, there needs to be some incentive to rerun raids later in the week.

Absurdo.8309:

pranker.3748:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

150 shards: weekly.
individual boss chests: daily.

Possibly with added: can open wing to any boss^. Since they would reset daily now and it would make getting to sab/matt/xera much more difficult for many.

^Requires clear up to that boss at least once to open?

Sadly I still see requiring to find 9 other players the biggest problem with raiding, not the loot. This would alleviate some problems, for a while but risks burnout much faster.

100% agree on shard cap! The daily reset would probably be turn off for some people struggling to make a full clear, so might as well just leave it as it is and after the wing has been cleared it resets.

Other than that I’d prefer to quit the content because of burnout than because of incapability of Anet to create satisfying and ’’fair’’ (loot wise) content.

I actually think a daily shard cap and a weekly loot cap could work too.

Regardless of what they do, there needs to be some incentive to rerun raids later in the week.

Please no on the daily shard cap unless it means we can still clear raids in one night and get 150. I’d rather not be forced to spread my raiding out throughout the week. I like the idea of it being an option but I’m still trying to get a lot of Viper jewelry and ugh, I don’t want to have to pug raids every day rather than just all night on whatever night I choose each week.

Jerus.4350:

Absurdo.8309:

pranker.3748:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

150 shards: weekly.
individual boss chests: daily.

Possibly with added: can open wing to any boss^. Since they would reset daily now and it would make getting to sab/matt/xera much more difficult for many.

^Requires clear up to that boss at least once to open?

Sadly I still see requiring to find 9 other players the biggest problem with raiding, not the loot. This would alleviate some problems, for a while but risks burnout much faster.

100% agree on shard cap! The daily reset would probably be turn off for some people struggling to make a full clear, so might as well just leave it as it is and after the wing has been cleared it resets.

Other than that I’d prefer to quit the content because of burnout than because of incapability of Anet to create satisfying and ’’fair’’ (loot wise) content.

I actually think a daily shard cap and a weekly loot cap could work too.

Regardless of what they do, there needs to be some incentive to rerun raids later in the week.

Please no on the daily shard cap unless it means we can still clear raids in one night and get 150. I’d rather not be forced to spread my raiding out throughout the week. I like the idea of it being an option but I’m still trying to get a lot of Viper jewelry and ugh, I don’t want to have to pug raids every day rather than just all night on whatever night I choose each week.

I wouldn’t mind a daily shard cap of 150, but I’m sure some would see it as too much. If we’re throwing numbers out there, I think 100 would be ok.

I’ll note that unless the daily cap was super low, you would be able to get your gear much faster.

Absurdo.8309:

Jerus.4350:

Absurdo.8309:

pranker.3748:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

150 shards: weekly.
individual boss chests: daily.

Possibly with added: can open wing to any boss^. Since they would reset daily now and it would make getting to sab/matt/xera much more difficult for many.

^Requires clear up to that boss at least once to open?

Sadly I still see requiring to find 9 other players the biggest problem with raiding, not the loot. This would alleviate some problems, for a while but risks burnout much faster.

100% agree on shard cap! The daily reset would probably be turn off for some people struggling to make a full clear, so might as well just leave it as it is and after the wing has been cleared it resets.

Other than that I’d prefer to quit the content because of burnout than because of incapability of Anet to create satisfying and ’’fair’’ (loot wise) content.

I actually think a daily shard cap and a weekly loot cap could work too.

Regardless of what they do, there needs to be some incentive to rerun raids later in the week.

Please no on the daily shard cap unless it means we can still clear raids in one night and get 150. I’d rather not be forced to spread my raiding out throughout the week. I like the idea of it being an option but I’m still trying to get a lot of Viper jewelry and ugh, I don’t want to have to pug raids every day rather than just all night on whatever night I choose each week.

I wouldn’t mind a daily shard cap of 150, but I’m sure some would see it as too much. If we’re throwing numbers out there, I think 100 would be ok.

I’ll note that unless the daily cap was super low, you would be able to get your gear much faster.

That’s exactly it, they’d probably just do 150/7 and make it an even number up or down. Meaning 1 and a half raid bosses, or a handful of wipes and you’re at the shard cap each day, but that also means taking the time to put together a team, or you just walk in with a few buddies and ‘low man’ a bunch of wipes to gather up some shards. I just don’t think it’d turn out well.

Shardwise the cap should deffo stay as it is. It should take time to gather up on a bunch of shards and it would be a wiser idea not to spread 150 shards through 7 days of the week, which would basically do the same kitten current dailies do, force people to do some random content.

Tentonhammr.7849:

The challenge from PvP is derived from the players, not the content itself. Comparing the human brain to AI is beyond delusional.

Yes, exactly. And yet people are still trying to claim that Raids are the “most challenging” content in the game. They aren’t.

Tentonhammr.7849:

By your own definition the “most challenging game mode” is already the most rewarding, since pro level players get to compete for large sums of real world money.

The quote i was answering to was “The most challenging content in the game should be the most rewarding content in the game.”. Tournament rewards are not part of the game.

Tentonhammr.7849:

And while we’re on the subject, that level of PvP is fsr more exclusionary than raids will ever be.

I agree on that. Which doesn’t impact the argument in the slightest.

pranker.3748:

That is true, none of us showed the desire to increase rewards for PvP and that’s probably because we dont have any major interest in PvP and PvP offers great deal of rewards as is, not to mention regular seasons. Also nobody is arguing against your idea that PvP is under rewarding, rather stating raids are even lower beyond what apparently PvP is. Also you have not mentioned the fact that none of us 3 went on PvP forum and complained how certain aspects in PvP be it match making/rewards/balance need nerfing nor did we shut down any ideas about possible fixes.

I was merely pointing out that the argument that “the most challenging content in the game should be the most rewarding content *in the game.” in no way supports beefing up the raid rewards. As it obviously doesn’t apply to raids at all.

No need to get agitated about it.

I’m not sure if one has to be a rocket scientist to understand this whole conversation is taking place in a PvE world.

Yeah as someone who plays viper reaper a lot, my food costs me more than 1g per 30 mins. I would love to get in more practice for Sab and Matt because I know I’d get so much better if I tried it every night. But if we barely scraped through two days after reset night, the cost of going again for half a dozen shards if I’m not capped already is just prohibitive.

If people are afraid a small minority of ‘hardcore raiders’ are going to break the economy if we got liquid gold or exo/asc loot by farming VG, it would be nice to get something like a bag of 10 shards that doesn’t count towards the weekly limit. Shards is more flexible and gives us options to buy ascended gear, raid skins, minis etc.

Honestly I’m really hoping for a constructive debate how, why, how many times you can get loot in reruns. Hopefully we can get enough attention to show that rewards are a major problem in raids atm.

Right now if I got it right (correct me if wrong) we should keep the spirit shards cap as it is, keep the original clear rewards, add some sort of 2nd/3rd clear rewards in the form of t6 materials/liquid gold/better overall rewards. As a 2nd solution it looks like it could be smart to remove weekly restrictions for rewards and make them daily (while shard cap stays the same). Point is to incentivize players to do more raids, get properly rewarded for doing so yet not force people into having ‘’yet another chore’’ to do.

pranker.3748:

Honestly I’m really hoping for a constructive debate how, why, how many times you can get loot in reruns. Hopefully we can get enough attention to show that rewards are a major problem in raids atm.

Right now if I got it right (correct me if wrong) we should keep the spirit shards cap as it is, keep the original clear rewards, add some sort of 2nd/3rd clear rewards in the form of t6 materials/liquid gold/better overall rewards. As a 2nd solution it looks like it could be smart to remove weekly restrictions for rewards and make them daily (while shard cap stays the same). Point is to incentivize players to do more raids, get properly rewarded for doing so yet not force people into having ‘’yet another chore’’ to do.

Agreed that there needs to be some incentive to repeat raids during the week.

I’m not 100% sure why people seem opposed to shards as repeat rewards. It could be something like repeat kills award 5 shards per day, which doesn’t contribute to the shard cap.

Plus shards have less potential to disrupt the market, as rewards are account bound, except for the ghostly infusion. Granted, it could impact the ascended materials market. But perhaps less that straight gold or an exotic.

I don’t really get the “chore” argument. It would apply to anything that gives repeat rewards. And, at least personally, I don’t feel the need to play every bit of daily content on a daily basis.

Still, I’ll support any daily repeat reward. I just don’t think we should limit ourselves by demanding specifics. Let’s agree it’s a problem and let anet implement the best solution.

Just a thought, but just drop the 2g on the initial win chest. Add t6 material bags worth a fair amount into the event reward chests that you get on every kill. Then other than the rare/exotic drop on the first kill all the monetary rewards are given for each kill.

I don’t oppose daily rewards or anything, but I do think that for the average raid player you go through everything once per week and then by that time the weekly reset has hit and you can do it again. It also serves to extend the lifetime of the content if you’re incentivized to do every different boss/event only once per week. I seriously don’t think it’s realistic to expect that a majority of raiders finish all 9 bosses in 2 hours Monday night. Adding a daily reward I could see a number of my friends running 9 bosses daily and then quitting the game after a couple of months (a number of my friends are pretty obsessive about always getting maximum raid rewards). I’m pretty sure the weekly lockout is specifically to discourage those burnouts.

I also think this will be even less of an issue the more raids get introduced, which is definitely part of the design. The raid team, by my understanding, is going to keep producing raids at the pace they always have, and we should see something before the end of the year from them.

Furthermore, I still stand by my previous post that as a raider who clears everything generally every week, I feel pretty well rewarded by the content. I get a lot of gold, great gold value out of the guaranteed exotics on average, good ascended turnaround, magnetite shards converting to gold or to ascended gear, etc. It feels good as it is. Now granted that doesn’t take into account a player beating a boss repeatedly back-to-back, but still.