Guild Wars 2

So lately I was trying to get into raiding so I joined a few trainings. A few were successful and some were not. I learned about the fight and a few weeks later I figured I have cleared these a few times why not try to improve myself and help the community by doing trainings. I figured I may not know a lot but at least it gives the new people a chance to learn. Now I am not saying I know everything but do you really have to know any thing at all to “train”. Well a few days after I have trainings in Lfg a few Exp players join and I am sure they are throwing a training raid on purpose to make fun. IDK why maybe I wasn’t a good enough trainer I am certainly not an EXP raider. I want to know why would someone do that. I mean these people where obviously exp and asking me to explain the mechanics over and over asking me about traits in there class and asking if they should bring the perfect skill for that situation I hadn’t explained yet. I mean I get it some have got there kill for the week so they have nothing better to do but what I want to know is how is anyone suppose to learn if they are just made fun of and every attempt to learn turns into a you don’t know anything so I am goin to invite friends to make fun of this group or maybe just me idk . I tried to not let it bother me and continued hoping one or 2 of the people in the group where legitimately new and wanted to learn but it got to the point where they had all of there friends in discord making fun. If this is what GW2 has become??

You’ll find these people in all online communities; GW2 isn’t special. Block them in-game, ban them from your Discord channels, and move on.

That sounds like a bad experience to go through. I agree with Rising Dusk: block these people, give the a nickname to remind you why you should not be in the same group with them or bar their entry to your group. Sometimes, it’s for your peace of mind not to deal with them altogether rather than trying to figure out a reasonable compromise between you and these types of people. In short, give them zero tolerance.

ya I just deleted the discord channel all together, its not dealing with these people that bothers me its the fact that some one is making it hard for others to progress. I mean to throw a training raid because you have nothing better to do is pretty low even for trolling standards. I completely understand know why people are afraid to create posts in lfg now and I would really like to see a community that can work together so everyone feels like they can raid if they chose to learn too. I feel this is part of the reason that lfg is always just people selling raids. But thanks for the advice

When I have to start training runs myself I tend to do something like “silent training semi-exp know mechanics” and just go along with that. If a newbie joins and he’s honest about it we usually give a quick rundown (unless it’s Matthias or any of the other hard bosses) and get low % practice/kill anyways. You gotta understand the raiding community is tight-knit and very small (in NA even more so than EU if that’s your case). And like any small community, they are suspicious/aggressive towards newcomers, regardless of whether or not they are being kind enough to do their own training runs. So as the others said, just block and move on, and don’t give up, I found many people that are “worth it” by attempting to raid.

There are also those who deliberately start to shout grief or troll in training runs so they might get more customers for their sold runs.

I have seen it where groups just fall apart where some people focus too much on how other people should play the game by letting them ping their entire gear build and what not , just to humiliate them.

Im not a person who blocks people at all, but some of those worst offenders got the honor to be on my list of goldsellers. Because they are that much worth to the community in my eyes. (temporarily anyway)

maxwelgm.4315:

= You gotta understand the raiding community is tight-knit and very small (in NA even more so than EU if that’s your case). And like any small community, they are suspicious/aggressive towards newcomers, regardless of whether or not they are being kind enough to do their own training runs.

I am sorry to hear this, because, if the community that does raids does not grow, or a the very least attract new players, it will become stagnant, and, there is no profit in building content for a stagnant community, and thus raids will risk going the way of dungeons.

I don’t think anyone that loves raids wants that, so it’s in their own best interest to help invite people into raiding, to build and expand their community, not push people away.

I never understood why developers create content just for small segments of the community instead of everyone. This always leads to elitism and exclusion.

The segment is not as small as you want to believe. I know lots of people that do raids regularly, on a weekly basis but never set a foot into fractals or fighting world bosses or PvP or WvW.
People are exaggerating a lot when they say raids is exclusive content for very skilled players or that they are hard to beat. This is mostly from the view of outsiders that have never set a foot into a raid, failed with one or only a few groups and therefore think raids are the hell on earth.
Since now I’ve seen so many of the so called “casual” players succeeding in raids because for this content they were playing for the team, adapting, learning encounters and tried a couple of boss pulls.
You can even do Sabetha and Sloth – some pug killer bosses – with new players and exlain them the mechanics on ts/discord shortly before and there is a good chance of beating them. The rest of the group don’t need to be pro players for that.

But yeah, if you have no or almost no clue of raids, how and which people are playing them it’s easy to be against them and call raiders out as an “elitist circle” playing “hardcore content”.

Btw. the most difficult thing in the game at the moment is fractal 100CM – raids are very easy compared to that.

Sooloo.1364:

I never understood why developers create content just for small segments of the community instead of everyone. This always leads to elitism and exclusion.

It has had a fairly negative impact on the game’s community.

And, even more unfortunate, if you try to bring it up on these forums, all you tend to get is “you’re imagining it – get over it and stop talking” style responses, which only further alienates people from the game mode.

The current implementation of raiding in GW2 needs to change in some pretty basic ways, imo.

Blaeys.3102:

Sooloo.1364:

I never understood why developers create content just for small segments of the community instead of everyone. This always leads to elitism and exclusion.

It has had a fairly negative impact on the game’s community.

And, even more unfortunate, if you try to bring it up on these forums, all you tend to get is “you’re imagining it – get over it and stop talking” style responses, which only further alienates people from the game mode.

The current implementation of raiding in GW2 needs to change in some pretty basic ways, imo.

Maybe not, what if, as opposed to linking the Raid to the Expansion, they simply sold Raids as Standalone Content, that way, they could invest more time into making them, thus making a better product that is it’s own thing, as opposed to just a tack-on to a larger project.

That way, people who loved to raid could buy raids, and the people that wanted nothing to do with them, could pass on that.

Now before anyone jumps on me about this, and asks if I would like this for other content, the answer is yes, because truth be told, I would so buy a dungeon X-pac, if that meant Anet made more story based dungeons with engaging yet comparably snore fest easy explorer paths that offered nothing more then special skins for weapons and armor.

I’d also support a Fractal X-pack, like T-5 Fractals, that way, it would ensure those that bought it, were serious about doing fractals.

I mean, LS3, since I was not around when it launched will cost me money to buy… and I have heard it’s worth it to buy it, so, why not apply that to other things like Raids, Dungeons and Fractals?

Blaeys.3102:

Sooloo.1364:

I never understood why developers create content just for small segments of the community instead of everyone. This always leads to elitism and exclusion.

It has had a fairly negative impact on the game’s community.

And, even more unfortunate, if you try to bring it up on these forums, all you tend to get is “you’re imagining it – get over it and stop talking” style responses, which only further alienates people from the game mode.

The current implementation of raiding in GW2 needs to change in some pretty basic ways, imo.

Haven’t read anything similar like “you’re imagining it – get over it and stop talking” over the last months here and even back then those were comments of people you can easily ignore bc it was either trolling or just not to be taken seriously although I agree you have to recognize such postings (which is not hard if you are more often around in these forums.)

But I still strongly disagree with your opinion – it’s legit to have it on your own – but I see so many raid teaching stuff going around. Guilds fill up with new members here and there, low LI runs or even ones without requirements + trainings and we have things like these regularly:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/6r57k8/xainas_double_event_on_sunday_hptour_raids/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/6uun9d/xainas_raid_teach_run_today_eu/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/6qa5pa/xainas_teach_raid_on_tuesday_8pm_cest_euevent/

Or that: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/6n2b23/a_music_guild_tries_to_raid_part_2/

They actually kill bosses!

So, with things like these, the mystery or the ghost of “elitist raiding” has become quite non-existent if you stay realistic.

Of course, raiding is or has become a thing of effort and time commitment not of being a professional in terms of skill and that is alright, like PvP or high level WvW which often takes place at night and is not possible for many players. PvE raids are just the cherry on top of PvE – nothing more, nothing less.

Sooloo.1364:

I never understood why developers create content just for small segments of the community instead of everyone. This always leads to elitism and exclusion.

Your right, pvp should have never been created. The only content they should make is open world maps like auric basin.

thrag.9740:

Sooloo.1364:

I never understood why developers create content just for small segments of the community instead of everyone. This always leads to elitism and exclusion.

Your right, pvp should have never been created. The only content they should make is open world maps like auric basin.

In comparison to some of the modern MOBA’s coming out, MMO pvp is so unbalanced it’s painful that to even humor it as a viable form of an E-Sport PvP would be a joke. Which is why the pvP in GW2 never became an E-Sport, and not or lack of them trying, I have to give them credit, they did everything they could to make it happen, well, everything, beyond, you know, making balanced classes.

Now , Nothing against the players, and the people who put their all into it, but, the game design was is just so lopsided and skewed that it never was a test of a players skill as much as it was taking advantage of game mechanics, which resulted in making the fights in GW2 lackluster by virtue of an abundance of cheesy tactics and no solid form of any kind of checks and balances to the classes.

Don’t take my word for it either, if you really love PvP, give some of the modern MOBA’s a go, you might be amazed at how fast paced, engaging, and balanced the fights are in comparison to what GW2 offers you.

Blaeys.3102:

Sooloo.1364:

I never understood why developers create content just for small segments of the community instead of everyone. This always leads to elitism and exclusion.

It has had a fairly negative impact on the game’s community.

And, even more unfortunate, if you try to bring it up on these forums, all you tend to get is “you’re imagining it – get over it and stop talking” style responses, which only further alienates people from the game mode.

The current implementation of raiding in GW2 needs to change in some pretty basic ways, imo.

Proof and citation of negative impact needed!

As is if you currently refuse to raid, that’s on you as raiding isn’t as gated as the very vocal minority here is making it out to be.

TexZero.7910:

Blaeys.3102:

Sooloo.1364:

I never understood why developers create content just for small segments of the community instead of everyone. This always leads to elitism and exclusion.

It has had a fairly negative impact on the game’s community.

And, even more unfortunate, if you try to bring it up on these forums, all you tend to get is “you’re imagining it – get over it and stop talking” style responses, which only further alienates people from the game mode.

The current implementation of raiding in GW2 needs to change in some pretty basic ways, imo.

Proof and citation of negative impact needed!

I dunno.. personally, and this is just me, but I think the fact that people are using DPS meters, is a sign that things have taken a negative direction.

STIHL.2489:

TexZero.7910:

Blaeys.3102:

Sooloo.1364:

I never understood why developers create content just for small segments of the community instead of everyone. This always leads to elitism and exclusion.

It has had a fairly negative impact on the game’s community.

And, even more unfortunate, if you try to bring it up on these forums, all you tend to get is “you’re imagining it – get over it and stop talking” style responses, which only further alienates people from the game mode.

The current implementation of raiding in GW2 needs to change in some pretty basic ways, imo.

Proof and citation of negative impact needed!

I dunno.. personally, and this is just me, but I think the fact that people are using DPS meters, is a sign that things have taken a negative direction.

I dunno man, i think anyone can choose to start there own party with the same success rates as those who don’t use 3rd party tools.

Seems like you missed the boat and the community is just fine.

STIHL.2489:

I dunno.. personally, and this is just me, but I think the fact that people are using DPS meters, is a sign that things have taken a negative direction.

You didn’t think dungeon groups that insta kicked all necros was a problem? Or rangers?

What about right when hot came out and we all did swamp of the mists by killing mossman underwater, and anyone who didn’t want to was kicked?

What about when cheesing lupi was the norm, and any guard who wouldn’t do it was kicked from the group?

All that was fine? The community was to your liking before raids came out?

thrag.9740:

STIHL.2489:

I dunno.. personally, and this is just me, but I think the fact that people are using DPS meters, is a sign that things have taken a negative direction.

You didn’t think dungeon groups that insta kicked all necros was a problem? Or rangers?

What about right when hot came out and we all did swamp of the mists by killing mossman underwater, and anyone who didn’t want to was kicked?

What about when cheesing lupi was the norm, and any guard who wouldn’t do it was kicked from the group?

All that was fine? The community was to your liking before raids came out?

Underwater that was so long ago just before hot you stood on the tree mate.

Linken.6345:

Underwater that was so long ago just before hot you stood on the tree mate.

You understand my point is that this negative behavior existed before raids right?

thrag.9740:

STIHL.2489:

I dunno.. personally, and this is just me, but I think the fact that people are using DPS meters, is a sign that things have taken a negative direction.

You didn’t think dungeon groups that insta kicked all necros was a problem? Or rangers?

What about right when hot came out and we all did swamp of the mists by killing mossman underwater, and anyone who didn’t want to was kicked?

What about when cheesing lupi was the norm, and any guard who wouldn’t do it was kicked from the group?

All that was fine? The community was to your liking before raids came out?

Well given it was far easier for me to quickly find 4 half-way competent people and do a dungeons or fractals, and leave the elitist to rot in the corner while I played the game, as opposed to needing to find 9 raid equipped people that want to a dungeon that tame gated by the week. So yah.. things were better back then.. might explain however why I made so many friends with necros and rangers.. always wondered about that. but we completed dungeons just fine…

STIHL.2489:

Well given it was far easier for me to quickly find 4 half-way competent people and do a dungeons or fractals, and leave the elitist to rot in the corner while I played the game, as opposed to needing to find 9 raid equipped people that want to a dungeon that tame gated by the week. So yah.. things were better back then.. might explain however why I made so many friends with necros and rangers.. always wondered about that. but we completed dungeons just fine…

If you want the re-introduction of casual instanced content, I would support you fully. I love the harder instanced content we have received, but I also miss having casual instanced content available. I think dungeon rewards should be un-nerfed, and I would love to see the dungeon community come back to life. In fact I would also love to see new dungeons come into the game.

But, you were implying that raids created the ‘elitism’ you don’t like. I’m pointing out facts counter to that notion.

STIHL.2489:

Disparaging of the name calling, I still stand by what I said, the fact that people feel the need to use 3rd party software like DPS meters, is most assuredly a negative direction for the game.

Oh please, you act like dekeys didn’t have a spreadsheet predicting optimal dps of every class before raids came out. There have always been players who seek to optimize, dps meters are just the empirical tool they use now, instead of purely theoretical predictions.

thrag.9740:

STIHL.2489:

Well given it was far easier for me to quickly find 4 half-way competent people and do a dungeons or fractals, and leave the elitist to rot in the corner while I played the game, as opposed to needing to find 9 raid equipped people that want to a dungeon that tame gated by the week. So yah.. things were better back then.. might explain however why I made so many friends with necros and rangers.. always wondered about that. but we completed dungeons just fine…

If you want the re-introduction of casual instanced content, I would support you fully. I love the harder instanced content we have received, but I also miss having casual instanced content available. I think dungeon rewards should be un-nerfed, and I would love to see the dungeon community come back to life. In fact I would also love to see new dungeons come into the game.

But, you were implying that raids created the ‘elitism’ you don’t like. I’m pointing out facts counter to that notion.

nahh.. raids din’t create Elitism.. they may have fostered it, nurtured it, and gave it a place to grow exponentially to the point that people who do raids feel justified to use spyware on other players.. but they did not create it.

STIHL.2489:

nahh.. raids din’t create Elitism.. they may have fostered it, nurtured it, and gave it a place to grow exponentially to the point that people who do raids feel justified to use spyware on other players.. but they did not create it.

I think your determined to remain ignorant of the truth. Elitism was cultivated and grown plenty inside of dungeons.

If you want, go back to the old forum threads, people have always been excluding players who would slow them down….

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/You-re-not-level-80-kick
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Skipgeons-and-80s
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Thief-Ranger-in-dungeons-kick
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/I-think-this-game-s-population-became-offending

This ones really good example:
https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/47323/thief_vs_guard.jpg

thrag.9740:

STIHL.2489:

nahh.. raids din’t create Elitism.. they may have fostered it, nurtured it, and gave it a place to grow exponentially to the point that people who do raids feel justified to use spyware on other players.. but they did not create it.

I think your determined to remain ignorant of the truth. Elitism was cultivated and grown plenty inside of dungeons.

Not just dungeons. Even the super casual open world was filled with as much elitism if not more than raids. In fact one can point to a healthy gain from DPS meters as the blinded by Ele only or Get steppin got rejected so hard when people realized their ele’s were doing less than healing druids.

Once had people making fun of the commander and newer players in WvW in a similar fashion. Pretending they are new just like the guys on your discord and also making fun of the “tryhard” nerds who tried their best to make calls and win the fights.

This phenomenon is not new to the game and certainly didn’t start with the raids. Those guys are holes in the lower backside, simple as that. Some people seem to get enjoyment out of griefing others.
Removing any exclusionary content will not fix this problem. People will always find a place or method to act this way. The only way to remove any possibility to meet players like those is to go and only play singleplayer games, sadly.

Don’t take it to heart and keep up your good work.

I’d love to try a raid. But unfortunately I find the raiding community completely inaccessible. I have watched videos, read and studied the walkthroughs. However I can never get into a squad that will accept me or be happy to guide me through my first experience. Training runs are few and far between (I have seen zero so far) I have literally spent hours over many days trying to get accepted into a squad. (EU server experience).

Right now the only way I am going to unlock the raids mastery line is by having to pay 800 ecto’s for the priveledge of potentially getting scammed in a selling run…

It’s quite sad really, the raiding community seems to be a polar opposite of the rest of the GW2 community.

Wiara.4236:

I have literally spent hours over many days trying to get accepted into a squad. (EU server experience).

I 100% believe you tried this and I can understand it’s tough. But it’s important in how you try too. Just staring at the LFG hoping to see a noob run come up or asking more experienced players to join them isn’t the best strategy. Although i understand the frustration, you have to understand that good raiders want to play with good raiders, and it quite normal for them to impose restrictions to ensure that they play with other experienced raiders.

Instead of joining a group, why not start your own. I see so many people saying they cant join groups because they dotn have experience, but noone seems to ever say hey i’ll start a group and post “Wing 1, vale guardian, new raider looking for 9 others to train”. Secondly, a really urge you to check reddit or the forums for a raidtraining guild. Many exist that dont even require you to represent and they can organise training with good and patient leaders.

What new players do too often is like trying to join Real Madrid by just showing up and hoping to be put into the team. When what they should do, is go to the local youth team, play there and work themselves up.

The best place to look for a training guild is on the forums or on reddit if you do not know anyone taking part in such runs.

I have led my own training guild for while. We organized those weekly runs over Discord or Enjin. Rarely posted any LFG messages or advertised it ingame. Was never hard to fill our ranks with either newbies or veterans willing to help. The word was spread over the forums and by our veterans who ended up inviting quite a few of their friends.
Had to put these runs on hold due to personal time restrictions in the end. Most had already graduaded towards their own statics by that point, however.
There are a lot of guilds such as this one. Some former members of my training guild ended up leading their own and so on.

Don’t judge the community by those you meet on the LFG. Most real raiders dedicated themselves to a static long ago. While LFG ends up being a place mostly for those only interested in legendary armor and not raiding itself. There some exceptions to that rule of course but they are rare.

TexZero.7910:

Blaeys.3102:

Sooloo.1364:

I never understood why developers create content just for small segments of the community instead of everyone. This always leads to elitism and exclusion.

It has had a fairly negative impact on the game’s community.

And, even more unfortunate, if you try to bring it up on these forums, all you tend to get is “you’re imagining it – get over it and stop talking” style responses, which only further alienates people from the game mode.

The current implementation of raiding in GW2 needs to change in some pretty basic ways, imo.

Proof and citation of negative impact needed!

As is if you currently refuse to raid, that’s on you as raiding isn’t as gated as the very vocal minority here is making it out to be.

The proof and citation is found here in this subforum, on reddit and in the other subforums – with all of the posts and stories about people running into the uglier side of GW2 when they try to raid for the first time – and further supported by the response they get – mostly hateful and accusatory – when they do get up the courage to post. Beyond this, you only have to look at the LFG throughout a week to see how raids are more and more becoming an exclusive club based around gear, meter and LI/kill proof checks.

And I do believe that we would hear about this a lot more if not for the venom spewed at people every time they try to bring it up – which is, of course, just further anecdotal proof of the point I am trying to make.

thrag.9740:

STIHL.2489:

nahh.. raids din’t create Elitism.. they may have fostered it, nurtured it, and gave it a place to grow exponentially to the point that people who do raids feel justified to use spyware on other players.. but they did not create it.

I think your determined to remain ignorant of the truth. Elitism was cultivated and grown plenty inside of dungeons.

If you want, go back to the old forum threads, people have always been excluding players who would slow them down….

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/You-re-not-level-80-kick
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Skipgeons-and-80s
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Thief-Ranger-in-dungeons-kick
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/I-think-this-game-s-population-became-offending

This ones really good example:
https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/47323/thief_vs_guard.jpg

Thank you for that history lesson, but that reinforces my point, it does not shoot it down.

Allow me to explain, see by the time I joined (2 years after launch) Dungeons were accessible to the point that a scrub like me could post an “All welcome” for most Dungeons and Fractals, and still have a pretty good chance of success.

So in that regard, over time the elitism surrounding dungeons had obviously lessened, to the point that pretty much anyone with almost any build could have a shot to get some dungeons done, as the Chillax base of players started to move in and do them.

Whereas, Raids ,now 2 years after launch, the elitism cultivated by them has grown to the point that they feel justified to use of DPS meters.

So I stand by what I said, now, since you know your history, you should be able to see clearly that this is a negative trend down the path of toxic elitism.

Wiara.4236:

I’d love to try a raid. But unfortunately I find the raiding community completely inaccessible. I have watched videos, read and studied the walkthroughs. However I can never get into a squad that will accept me or be happy to guide me through my first experience. Training runs are few and far between (I have seen zero so far) I have literally spent hours over many days trying to get accepted into a squad. (EU server experience).

Right now the only way I am going to unlock the raids mastery line is by having to pay 800 ecto’s for the priveledge of potentially getting scammed in a selling run…

It’s quite sad really, the raiding community seems to be a polar opposite of the rest of the GW2 community.

Don’t start raiding over the LFG alone. Best way to begin is to go to the right forum sections like this one:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/community/lookingfor

There are also ones for german, french and spanish auditory, just change the language above!

Furthermore the RTI (Raid Training Initiative) also welcomes new players and on reddit there are also many possibilities like this one:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/6uun9d/xainas_raid_teach_run_today_eu/

If you went through all of them and you had 0 success then come back and tell us!

STIHL.2489:

Thank you for that history lesson, but that reinforces my point, it does not shoot it down.

Allow me to explain, see by the time I joined (2 years after launch) Dungeons were accessible to the point that a scrub like me could post an “All welcome” for most Dungeons and Fractals, and still have a pretty good chance of success.

So in that regard, over time the elitism surrounding dungeons had obviously lessened, to the point that pretty much anyone with almost any build could have a shot to get some dungeons done, as the Chillax base of players started to move in and do them.

Whereas, Raids ,now 2 years after launch, the elitism cultivated by them has grown to the point that they feel justified to use of DPS meters.

So I stand by what I said, now, since you know your history, you should be able to see clearly that this is a negative trend down the path of toxic elitism.

The fact you could post, “all Welcome” and reliably clear was not at all indicative of elitism. You could post an exact replica of that lfg for raids, and it would fill. It just might not clear. This is not in anyway related to elitism, this is because raids are more challenging than dungeons by design.

However, what your doing, is imo the wrong approach. Gw2 needs challenging instanced content. Before raids, gw2 pve was such a joke that when this happened:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5RCeGiMby8

No body defended gw2, because it was true:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2tisb0/pve_thats_not_terrible/

If that same comment happened today, there would be many players who would defend this game, and spread a popular message about it. The optics surrounding a game matter to draw new players in.

However, the game is lacking the casual content dungeons use to provide. Dungeons should have their rewards returned, maybe 1 or 2 new dungeons should be released, etc. All this hostility towards raids comes from the fact that dungeons are discontinued. I bet you wouldn’t view raids nearly as unfavorably if anet was still making dungeons too.

I think its pretty natural that people get possibly more toxic with more organised and harder content.

The more you need to depend on other people, the more youre going to comment on what other people are doing right or wrong. With the frustration rising with harder content (see some posts about higher difficulty JPs) that frustration will be projected more on your teammates.

At times this may lead to more toxicity. Especially when there are people who are more emotionally unstable.

The trick is always to make the group feel like one team which can talk about mistakes freely and accept those mistakes more readily.

thrag.9740:

STIHL.2489:

Thank you for that history lesson, but that reinforces my point, it does not shoot it down.

Allow me to explain, see by the time I joined (2 years after launch) Dungeons were accessible to the point that a scrub like me could post an “All welcome” for most Dungeons and Fractals, and still have a pretty good chance of success.

So in that regard, over time the elitism surrounding dungeons had obviously lessened, to the point that pretty much anyone with almost any build could have a shot to get some dungeons done, as the Chillax base of players started to move in and do them.

Whereas, Raids ,now 2 years after launch, the elitism cultivated by them has grown to the point that they feel justified to use of DPS meters.

So I stand by what I said, now, since you know your history, you should be able to see clearly that this is a negative trend down the path of toxic elitism.

The fact you could post, “all Welcome” and reliably clear was not at all indicative of elitism. You could post an exact replica of that lfg for raids, and it would fill. It just might not clear. This is not in anyway related to elitism, this is because raids are more challenging than dungeons by design.

Of course it is, Elitism is driven by Ego, purely put Elitism is a feeling that someone is better then other people. If 10 random filthy casuals could clear raids reliably, it would substantially dull the egotism and pride currently surrounding doing raids. This Egotism is what is fueling the Elitism. It’s that Simple, people that do raids feel they are superior to those that don’t.

Exactly how Dungeons used to be, and once the filthy casuals were able to PUG dungeons reliably, it curbed the elitism surrounding them.

You obviously have read the older posts, you can clearly see the cycle.

FrizzFreston.5290:

The trick is always to make the group feel like one team which can talk about mistakes freely and accept those mistakes more readily.

That’s what guild groups do

maddoctor.2738:

FrizzFreston.5290:

The trick is always to make the group feel like one team which can talk about mistakes freely and accept those mistakes more readily.

That’s what guild groups do

Well obviously. But also experienced PUG players. It’s obviously harder as you don’t know one another as well, but definitely something to aim towards.

A higher morale means a better chance at success. So keeping things positive is one of the main things you need to do in any occasion to be successful. It’s less likely to be successful if there’s a constant pressure to perform or that someone is constantly singled out for their lower damage or whichever. Also forcing people to ping their gear and such things isn’t helping. (Keywords being constantly, and forcing)

It’s really basic Multiplayer rules that apply to any game. Mostly PvP games, but also PvE games. Being toxic is equal to being less successful.

STIHL.2489:

Of course it is, Elitism is driven by Ego, purely put Elitism is a feeling that someone is better then other people. If 10 random filthy casuals could clear raids reliably, it would substantially dull the egotism and pride currently surrounding doing raids. This Egotism is what is fueling the Elitism. It’s that Simple, people that do raids feel they are superior to those that don’t.

Exactly how Dungeons used to be, and once the filthy casuals were able to PUG dungeons reliably, it curbed the elitism surrounding them.

You obviously have read the older posts, you can clearly see the cycle.

There was no cycle, it was simply the case that dungeons were easy enough for players to clear while playing casually. There were still plenty of people, myself included, who make lfgs such as, ‘p123 experienced 80s’ right up until the day dungeons were killed. We expected thieves to blind and blast stealth, we expected warriors to run ps/ea/banners, and we expected our teammates to contribute. These are things you call elitism, but they were not necessary to clear content. They were necessary to clear content faster.

In present day, basic teamwork is still considered elitist by you, but you have content that requires basic teamwork. So casual groups are unable to clear reliably. None of that, has to do with egos. There were and always will be players who want to be efficient with their time. Its human nature, raids neither created nor exacerbated it, raids are simply difficult enough that the casual option which was present in dungeons is not longer as viable.

This is not to say there are no casual raiders, but even casual raiders typically have put some thought into their builds. Compare this to casual dungeon runners, who sometimes didn’t even have all rune slots filled.

Vinceman.4572:

Wiara.4236:

I’d love to try a raid. But unfortunately I find the raiding community completely inaccessible. I have watched videos, read and studied the walkthroughs. However I can never get into a squad that will accept me or be happy to guide me through my first experience. Training runs are few and far between (I have seen zero so far) I have literally spent hours over many days trying to get accepted into a squad. (EU server experience).

Right now the only way I am going to unlock the raids mastery line is by having to pay 800 ecto’s for the priveledge of potentially getting scammed in a selling run…

It’s quite sad really, the raiding community seems to be a polar opposite of the rest of the GW2 community.

Don’t start raiding over the LFG alone. Best way to begin is to go to the right forum sections like this one:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/community/lookingfor

There are also ones for german, french and spanish auditory, just change the language above!

Furthermore the RTI (Raid Training Initiative) also welcomes new players and on reddit there are also many possibilities like this one:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/6uun9d/xainas_raid_teach_run_today_eu/

If you went through all of them and you had 0 success then come back and tell us!

I’m not sure how linking the same old sites (which i assume are for complete newcomers by the sounds of it, not returning veteran players) can be expected to help someone who is legitimately frustrated over being excluded from the raid community. It is like going in for a job interview for a entry level position and having the employer tell you, sorry but we found someone who was a better fit but you’re always free to reapply in a couple months. That’s disheartening and doesn’t even build character.. and theres no reason for a gaming community to be so exclusive and ruthless as the job industry, it just doesn’t make sense especially for just pugs.

Even back with dungeons they were not half so ruthless as the raid community has been and remains, for instance you would never see an Arah pug that asked for someone with the skills to solo Lupi.. instead they would ask for someone who would click one broken skill that would melt the boss in an instant. That’s not fair play or a good estimation of person’s skill. In fact i would be secretly disgusted with anyone who cheesed or ‘cheated’ on game mechanics and then considered themselves elitist, because there was no skill or honor in that.

But now with raids you have that elitism overblown and it continue to slowly but steadily inflate over time.. there are not only just people insta-kicking for having 5-10 LI below what they asked for, but just disgruntled players insta-kicking others for personal reasons; whispering something hurtful and unproductive to say a newcomer, and then insta-blocking them so they can’t respond ; or else ending on a quip and insta-dropping along with their buddy just bc they don’t want to play with one another player in a 10man pug (for longstanding and tense relations between them), even more exp’d jaded players kicking for single mistake even on bosses like Kc and Escort which believe me is not that hard to wrap your head around. Taken all together it just adds up into one big tangle of nasty attitude, which you might be able to shrug off but what happens when you come across that same individual time and time every month and again. Thats not a good way to keep relations where you are forced to leave a potential boss kill 10man group just bc you had some half-remembered personal tiff with one of the team members on some random day months ago.. not a good feeling to experience in a game (which suppose to be fun) either.

By the way that guy was talking about EU too so i understand.. i had one commander recently who said he was previously from EU, he kept demanding newcomers to split their LI stacks and ping them faster than he could blink. I think he had to kick like a total of 4 people for just one spot before he found the right guy to fill the last spot. There was also a guy who ping more then 1 whole stack of LI but he refuse to split his stacks saying something like ‘ask person X he can speak for my ability’ and this person respond like ‘yeah I know him, he’s solid’ but I did felt bad for him when commander kick him for no reason (and he literally wait couple min for this guy to enter the instance before he did that).

I don’t say this just as any kind of anecdote or what have you, but you know there something wrong with such a close-knit community when 3 out of 4 returning player have to lie about their exp before they get their foot in the door and be accepted by any pug. Thats a bit ridiculous imo and I agree with this person that there something flawed with a community that operate like this, with such a steep learning curve and divide.

thrag.9740:

Linken.6345:

Underwater that was so long ago just before hot you stood on the tree mate.

You understand my point is that this negative behavior existed before raids right?

I don’t know. I haven’t personally seen any of those behaviours, even though i was intensively pugging in the old days.

Yeah, elitists did exist them, but they were easily marginalized. Because all the elitists’ restrictions were, in fact a total bunk and most people knew it.

Now, raids created a situation when those elitist restrictions are no longer so absurd as they were then. In fact, many people can reasonably think they’re justified.

That is the difference.

nagr.1593:

I’m not sure how linking the same old sites…

If you had followed these links you would have seen that they are up-to-date. The german “Looking for” section has new posts within less of an hour and guilds are constantly searching, same on map chat. I know that because I’m very active there.
In addition the reddit threads are the freshest themselves as you can easily check via time stamps. People are doing such runs regularly – for complete beginners!

Seriously, if people do not use such things today although people tell them about their existence it’s their thing. Same if you apply for a job via letters and written stuff although the company has online applications only – to fit into your crude comparison.

I’ve seen so many casual players without 0 experience getting into raids over the last months because they wanted. They haven’t given up and just staring at LFGs where you won’t find many opportunities to start raiding.

Almost your whole post is about LFG, LI and pugging. If you don’t want to deal with toxic players or playing the roulette called LFG, then stop pugging and look for guilds. It’s just normal that the first guild needn’t to be the last, sometimes you have to walk on to find the people that are fitting to you.

I’m done with such stories because I’m helping raid beginners every week and those guys and girls aren’t professional fractal players or of any similar skill level although most of them are playing T4 regularly (which is nothing special due to being instanced content which attracts this crowd). They are usual players interested in raiding and have at least looked once at metabattle or qT’s site to inform themselves about no-no’s and appropriate gear. It’s not hard to play a magi druid as introduction as well as condi ranger or cPS. Even the 2nd chrono (in a meta scenario) is an easy starter without having the must to distort or other shenanigans.

And nagr, you have quite a history here maybe that is still an issue, I don’t know but since you have experienced so much tragic stuff I would look at myself and change it drastically like for example, stop pugging and joining a guild – as I mentioned above – with a nice atmosphere that kills maybe 3-6 bosses per week and grow with them. You can share your know-how and in a few weeks you will be able to fullclear.

Astralporing.1957:

I don’t know. I haven’t personally seen any of those behaviours, even though i was intensively pugging in the old days.

Yeah, elitists did exist them, but they were easily marginalized. Because all the elitists’ restrictions were, in fact a total bunk and most people knew it.

Now, raids created a situation when those elitist restrictions are no longer so absurd as they were then. In fact, many people can reasonably think they’re justified.

That is the difference.

What?

The majority of dungeon runs was set with requirements and people were kicked out instantly after not having the specific gear/stuff/whatever and would not adjust to the lfg. Of course to avoid that you had the opportunity to open your own lfg and you got mates to play with you – you can do the same today – in raids!

Similar situation for fractals, people left first phase of swamp when one run was failing. Mossman in the open without stating it in the lfg? Insta kick attempt or the one who joined left immediately. Not to speak about class discrimination!

When I pug fractals nowadays there is a high chance of somebody yelling around, trying to be the pro, being rude or pretending to be superior although he is a little light in reality. That’s why I rather run with guildies like in raids. The fractal pug community – I don’t like to call it that name – is way more toxic and selective than the raid community.

Raids shatter the illusion that you’re special, or that you can get by with just about anything. Which tends to run counter to how much of the rest of the game is presented to the player. There’s nothing quite like really enjoying the weapons/build you’re used to, and finding that the content you really want to try is completely exclusionary to how you’ve built and engaged with your class/character. It’s jarring. Certainly, some of the best of the best players can and often DO complete raids with sub par builds, which is tantamount to an NFL player slumming it with high school kids, but many players don’t have the commitment and ability to do the same. It’s probably an issue with how raiding in this game is structured. It’s often the case of “git gud or get out”. I’ve had people tell me I should try raiding, but I don’t like the mentality that comes with raiding. I value my own enjoyment far above the members of the group. Arenanet, imo, cast a wide shadow of influence over the rest of the game when they introduced a new concept, “Legendary Armor”, and they put it behind something that nearly no one who played their game could reasonably do. It’s irritating.

Vinceman.4572:

The majority of dungeon runs was set with requirements

Not true. The majority of visible LFG’s? Maybe – but that’s because the casual ones filled and disappeared off the list way faster.

Vinceman.4572:

Of course to avoid that you had the opportunity to open your own lfg and you got mates to play with you – you can do the same today – in raids!

Then i could open an “all welcome” LFG and have pretty much the same chances of completing as the elitist restricted ones. That is definitely not true in raids.

Vinceman.4572:

When I pug fractals nowadays there is a high chance of somebody yelling around, trying to be the pro, being rude or pretending to be superior although he is a little light in reality. That’s why I rather run with guildies like in raids. The fractal pug community – I don’t like to call it that name – is way more toxic and selective than the raid community.

And yet i have never ran into the problems you describe. And i mean literally never.

Astralporing.1957:

Vinceman.4572:

When I pug fractals nowadays there is a high chance of somebody yelling around, trying to be the pro, being rude or pretending to be superior although he is a little light in reality. That’s why I rather run with guildies like in raids. The fractal pug community – I don’t like to call it that name – is way more toxic and selective than the raid community.

And yet i have never ran into the problems you describe. And i mean literally never.

Then you’ve been very lucky. I find fractals to be far more toxic and annoying to pug because there’s a bigger difference in expectations and gameplay than in raids. In raids almost everyone uses the same builds, strats and wants to do the same thing. In fracs there’s a big difference between people who just want to clear the content and are ok with it taking 1.5h and those that want to speedclear and kill the 3 fracs in 30min. This has created a lot of friction in groups i’ve been in.

I experienced similar things in dungeons but the speedrunners/casuals were easier to distinct usually. There was still a lot of toxicity in dungeons. I can’t tell you how often i saw thieves get kicked from a Caudecus’ Manor run because they failed a stealthrun.

It’s true that in those parts of the game you could still finish the content easily without meta strats, but it didn’t diminish toxicity at all. Necro joined? Instakick. Failed a stealthrun? Instakick. You’d always have to ping gear aswell and there was often AP requirements, which is just silly.

Astralporing.1957:

Not true. The majority of visible LFG’s? Maybe – but that’s because the casual ones filled and disappeared off the list way faster.

Hmm, I don’t know what to say but I was playing dungeons and fractals only for more than over 2 years on a daily basis. Of course there were enough “welcome” lfgs but I doubt they were nearly as often as the ones with requirements, not even close to 50%. If that have been the case, Anet would never have cancelled dungeon development and they would be one of the main parts in the game.
Yes, those lfgs mentioned of you filled fast because players were sitting in front of the monitor and wait till the golden one appears instead of making their own.
I remember back in the days we had threads on a daily basis like “I was kicked out of a dungeon group because <insert reason>” and almost none of those people have ever formed their own group or at least match with the requirements. There were some really embarrassing threads about someone complaining and then the former of the group was also joining the thread.

Astralporing.1957:

Then i could open an “all welcome” LFG and have pretty much the same chances of completing as the elitist restricted ones. That is definitely not true in raids.

Or you can just open the lfg section – let’s say as druid – and ask for “2 chrono (1 tank) – 1 druid – 2 cPS – 4 dps” and there is a good chance of beating several of those bosses. Maybe not the “harder” ones like Sabetha, Matthias and Xera but you can and will improve over time and be able to do them later like someone who is starting T1 and will end in T4 some day.
If you just want to have chilled sessions, that’s not what raids stand for. For this situation this game offers open world exploration, several dungeons (not all), maybe some T1s (not all) and world bosses.

Astralporing.1957:

And yet i have never ran into the problems you describe. And i mean literally never.

Oh, you must be very lucky then or not playing T4s on a daily basis like me. When I pug in EU I literally have to set up lfgs like “Daily T4 – know the mechanics – relaxed run” otherwise the chance is high that players join for T4 that have no clue at all or not knowing about the harder T4 mechanics. Yes, I can leave that out but then the possibility increases of having a run lasting more than 1 hour and since I am able to finish T4s like today with a non-meta group in 27 minutes it’s a no-go for me. I have defined time to play and I’m not willing to spend the double than necessary. And as I said if I don’t write “relaxed” or anything similar the chance will be high that someone is joining and tries to tell every bit of tactic we already know and yells some more stuff if something happens out of normality.
People have different standards, not everyone is able to play with each other – this is no socialism where we all have to be the same. People would do good if they respect the lfg, it would create less harm – but I doubt this will ever happen.

Sorry for the double post but I want to share with you the next chapter of elitism in raiding, a real masterpiece of toxicity, ppl blaming and playing against each other without having a single spark of fun:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/6vc2as/a_music_guild_tries_to_raid_part_3/

/s

Astralporing.1957:

Then i could open an “all welcome” LFG and have pretty much the same chances of completing as the elitist restricted ones. That is definitely not true in raids.

I’m positive when you opened an “all welcome” LFG you already had at least some experience in the content. Even the easiest dungeon is hard when you try it for the first time without any experience and you need at least one person that knows what to do and teach the others.

nagr.1593:

I don’t say this just as any kind of anecdote or what have you, but you know there something wrong with such a close-knit community when 3 out of 4 returning player have to lie about their exp before they get their foot in the door and be accepted by any pug. Thats a bit ridiculous imo and I agree with this person that there something flawed with a community that operate like this, with such a steep learning curve and divide.

I’m wondering, is there a way to convince someone that you have experience in the type of content you are doing? What does “Experience” even mean?

There is nothing wrong with the community working like this. You can’t expect to join a group of experienced players and have them do the content while you watch, that’s not fair to them, isn’t it? Even those guys spend some time learning the content in their static groups, so why don’t you do the same?

ksclesky.9507:

but do you really have to know any thing at all to “train”.

Running with PUGs is not the best way to get experience in any kind of content, unless you have a “teacher” with you, and I don’t know why anyone would expect otherwise. Not everyone is a good teacher though, especially when it comes to content that you have to manage 9 other players. To be a good teacher in dungeons, you basically teach them the mechanics, because all players will deal with the exact same mechanics.

In Raids it’s harder because different players will have to deal with completely different mechanics, one will have to heal, another will have to tank, another will have to move to certain places, another to CC, and so on. In order to “teach” a group of random people you’d have to know every role, of every fight, which isn’t always possible. Which is why teaching in Raids is much harder than teaching dungeons or fractals.

And this is the main reason that Raid PUGs in general do not teach. They expect those who join them to already know their role and the mechanics, and that’s why we get the LI requirements or KP or whatever they use these days. And what’s wrong with that? You want to learn the mechanics? Find a training run and/or go in with your guild and/or friends. Those can teach you what you need to know, random strangers won’t.

Fixing forum bugs?

First off, it is never ok to harrass people or make them look like fools or humiliate them in any other way.

But since there will always be people who do that (or situations where the troll in you is stronger than the carebear), I think it’s important to know what you can do to avoid such situations.

ksclesky.9507:

Now I am not saying I know everything but do you really have to know any thing at all to “train”.

I answer that with a firm yes! You really need to know the stuff you are teaching very well. It’s one of the essentials really. The people you teach/train need to respect you for your knowledge and skill in the area. I’ve taught and trained a lot of people, and there will always be situations where you get questions that test your knowledge, even from genuine students. And sometimes you will be tested by a troll. And there will be questions you cannot answer, so you need to prepare for these situations. The best way to make these trolls shut up is to give a correct or good answer. If you survive the first days, it is settled. When you are new, few people will give you the benefit of doubt,you need to have the knowledge to provide good answers to the Spanish Inquisition when it shows up. And you won’t expect it ^^

What you can do is to get the knowledge required to train people for raids. This takes time and effort, and people respect these things. They need to trust that you know your business. That doesn’t mean that you always have the right answer, because there could be better ways of doing things. It means that you need to know the basics to get toa good solution and encourage people to think for themselves. Its’ a complicated business and impossible to cover here, but one thing is certain: You need to know the things you teach/train very well. That makes trolls just give up and move on.