Guild Wars 2

Walhalla.5473:

Don’t forget that mastering and killing a Raid Boss are two different Things but I agree. The next Bosses should be much harder and require more Effort to take them down. Like for the World first Teams, wiping for a few hundred Times before getting it done.

True. With “master[ing]”, I actually meant “killing (no matter how messy)”, so that was imprecise.

But TBH if the first Raid of GW2 would like that, with Bosses on Mythic Archimonde Level in Terms of difficulty, it would be too much of a culture Shock. The first Raid is there to introduce GW2 Players into Raiding, it don’t need to be really difficult, its Challenging but you can still mess up a few Things without wiping the entire Raid and I think the second one will also more like getting People more comfortable with Raiding but then Anet should amp up the difficulty of the next Raids

So you agree that raids are difficult enough to be a culture shock to existing players, but not that players should have any right to be upset about how much more difficult raids are than the content they enjoy?

Yeah but again. The first Raid shouldn’t be so difficult that every Boss takes 600+ Wipes just to kill it, it should be there to get People comfortable into the Concept of Raiding, but in Future Anet should release really hard Raid Encounters where it takes really long to kill the Boss. ( But pls not due to some cheesy Things like RNG deciding which Mechanic comes now ). First Raid itself has the right difficulty, we just need more Raids that are more Challenging ( and a better PvE Balance :P )

But what really irritated me is the Fact that we don’t have Video Guides to every Boss. There are quite a lot on the first Wing but less on the second and well third Wing? The Guide on KC is nearly one Hour long ( srsly and I thought a 12 Min Guide on Gorse would be overkill ) and Xera has no Guide on the Boss Fight itself ( expect a German Guide which was put in one or two days after the first Kill ). The Guides that exist for Xera, are for different Tactics but there exist no real Guide for the Fight. ( Something I want to Change )

The last Guy who tried gave up after the trio Guide and is now Back to Guides for Festivals, JPs and Open World Stuff.

Ohoni.6057:

But TBH if the first Raid of GW2 would like that, with Bosses on Mythic Archimonde Level in Terms of difficulty, it would be too much of a culture Shock. The first Raid is there to introduce GW2 Players into Raiding, it don’t need to be really difficult, its Challenging but you can still mess up a few Things without wiping the entire Raid and I think the second one will also more like getting People more comfortable with Raiding but then Anet should amp up the difficulty of the next Raids

So you agree that raids are difficult enough to be a culture shock to existing players, but not that players should have any right to be upset about how much more difficult raids are than the content they enjoy?

No, just the opposite. He is saying that if they were like Mythic WOW raids it would be a culture shock to the GW2 players, not what exists now.
And a “raid” by its very definition are meant to be harder than regular open world daily pve kind of stuff. But you have every right, just like anyone to not like it and then simply not do it. But not to demand that it gets made easier just to suit you.

Yeah but again. The first Raid shouldn’t be so difficult that every Boss takes 600+ Wipes just to kill it, it should be there to get People comfortable into the Concept of Raiding, but in Future Anet should release really hard Raid Encounters where it takes really long to kill the Boss. ( But pls not due to some cheesy Things like RNG deciding which Mechanic comes now ). First Raid itself has the right difficulty, we just need more Raids that are more Challenging ( and a better PvE Balance :P )

Or people could just play a game where that sort of thing is expected, and leave it out of Guild Wars 2 entirely.

CptAurellian.9537:

Dadnir.5038:

(enjoying wipe is masochism! yes it is!) <> (Sometime you must understand that the journey is what’s important, not what lie at the end of the road).

Love the contradiction within one sentence. What’s the point of a boss that just rolls over to hand out his loot? The best bosses have always been those which were complex and required the raid weeks to months before we mastered them.

Yes and no! Failing or suffering set back should not be so tightly linked to dying and wiping. Beside, the legendary’s collections are a journey but there is no need to perceive it as a matter of life and death.

What I meant was that enjoying wipe is being a masochist while not willing to pay the price for a legendary is just being greedy and refusing to make the journey.

As for the encounters you are as trapped into the raid patern legacy of wow than the developpers. It seem that for you there is only kill or being killed. What I ask from the developper is for them to be able to break those shackles. Maybe that’s to much to ask but that’s what I ask. You talk about loot? Should I say that you are like the one that you argue with? Just running after the loot?

Logically there is no legit reason for an enrage mechanism. A wounded beast or human will not enrage, it will flee. If the fight continue longer, logically there will be new foes that will come to mess up with the outcome and screw up your strategy but the ennemy won’t suddenly become stronger and do more damage.

Is there no room for encounters where you gotta to subdue a beast in order to use it so that you can move on in the raid wing? There definitely is. Is there no room for encounter where you need to capture a foe without killing it? Is there no room for encounter where you have to endure until your ally that became berserk calm down? Or perhaps with your logic it would be better to kill this ally and loot him. Is there no room for encounter where you have to defend the only way to subdue your main foe and at the same time distract this very foe so that it doesn’t destroy this tool?

There is plenty of encounter patern that would not automatically make us stupid murderer that kill for loot and lie to themself by thinking that they are saving the world. As for what we got today, you talk about complexity but all bosses are trapped in there arena waiting for there own death, we just have to solve the riddle for it and have enough dps. There is no way for them to escape death and we gain nothing from killing them except “loot”. The only thing we do is exterminating the pest. We could learn ton of things from the white mantle officers but no, we just kill them. Gorseval happen to be on our path… let’s just kill it. Why? Well he block our path… and there is loot! Wouldn’t it be more interesting to be able to make it flee or capture him or distract him or even lead him to sabetha crew so that he wreck havoc among them? Should something like this be easy? No. Would it be challenging? Yes it would. Would it make it harder to arrest Sabetha so that we got some intel on who work behind the scene? Yes probably.

@Dadnir,

There’s certainly room for more creative encounters, some of the more interesting ones in WoW involved ‘Healing’ battles where you had to do a large amount of healing to an NPC who started at 30% life while the rest of the group needed to hold off increasingly more difficult waves of enemies.

Some encounters did not have an enrage mechanic, but instead had dps checks where you needed to do a certain amount of damage to something in a short period the boss did or else it would kill the raid outright. And mind you, many of the creatures we face in this first Wing are already in their homes. Vale Guardian is restricted within its Pylons as a guardian, Gorseval manifests with the hatred and ire of thousands of souls, Sabetha is holding us back herself, only ‘enraging’ after having enough of the group to need to blow apart a large portion of her base.

I think there’s a bit of a confusion about enrages, the mechanic itself isn’t the monster suddenly having enough of the raiders shenanigans, that’s from the get-go, and the evolution, increasing mechanics and complexity of the encounters are signs of the boss struggling to take down the group. You can even make a case for Slothasor, a more primitive beast that literally wants to slumber during its encounter. But you are in its den, it is already cornered, and it does not particularly want you there.

I am all for inventive encounters, but what I do not want are encounters like Zhaitan, or at least if they make another ‘Shoot down the boss with guns’ encounter again, be far more creative with it.

“There’s certainly room for more creative encounters, some of the more interesting ones in WoW involved ‘Healing’ battles where you had to do a large amount of healing to an NPC who started at 30% life while the rest of the group needed to hold off increasingly more difficult waves of enemies.”

Oh yes, good ol ICC and the Emerald Dream Dragon “fight”! And many of the new raids in Daenor had you using a maze to guide the boss into for damage and then of course the many tank swap encounters.
And as someone mentioned on here somewhere, ANET is only just scratching the surface when it comes to raids and content and such. Give em time guys, and hopefully they will get creative and bump it a bit. Just no WOW clones please, I don’t think any of us want that.

Ohoni.6057:

Yeah but again. The first Raid shouldn’t be so difficult that every Boss takes 600+ Wipes just to kill it, it should be there to get People comfortable into the Concept of Raiding, but in Future Anet should release really hard Raid Encounters where it takes really long to kill the Boss. ( But pls not due to some cheesy Things like RNG deciding which Mechanic comes now ). First Raid itself has the right difficulty, we just need more Raids that are more Challenging ( and a better PvE Balance :P )

Or people could just play a game where that sort of thing is expected, and leave it out of Guild Wars 2 entirely.

Funny, couldn’t the same be said of your literally handing out participation awards method ? Or your pro easy mode push ?

Odd how you resort to opting to silence people who disagree instead of having a civil discussion and understanding that people aren’t going to agree with you at every turn.

Funny, couldn’t the same be said of your literally handing out participation awards method ? Or your pro easy mode push ?

Nobody is asking for handing out participation awards, and the pro-easy mode push is to bring the system in line with the existing game in a way that the current raids are not. That’s the issue here, that raids have dragged the game’s meta away from where it naturally was before, and some players want it back where it was. It is better to have the content in the range of the rest of the game than to have it only exist at a difficulty level that is beyond the rest of the game’s content. You may disagree with that, but I struggle to understand how you cannot even understand that.

Odd how you resort to opting to silence people who disagree instead of having a civil discussion and understanding that people aren’t going to agree with you at every turn.

When have I attempted to silence anyone?

Nobody is asking for handing out participation awards, and the pro-easy mode push is to bring the system in line with the existing game in a way that the current raids are not. That’s the issue here, that raids have dragged the game’s meta away from where it naturally was before, and some players want it back where it was. It is better to have the content in the range of the rest of the game than to have it only exist at a difficulty level that is beyond the rest of the game’s content. You may disagree with that, but I struggle to understand how you cannot even understand that.

you are, actually. Remember, you want envoy armor in an easy mode raid as difficult as infantile SAB…(remember, you want no wipe, no training mode, no group composition, just spam 1 with whatever random player / build in order to have raid rewards)
so yes, you want to be rewarded for just participation.

Could you just accept that there is a content not for you, while you can enjoy 95% of the game freely? Or you’re just greedy and you won’t give up until you can have legenderay armor? you should look closer to your signature btw…

When have I attempted to silence anyone?

When you asked people to leave the game ?

you are, actually. Remember, you want envoy armor in an easy mode raid as difficult as infantile SAB…(remember, you want no wipe, no training mode, no group composition, just spam 1 with whatever random player / build in order to have raid rewards)
so yes, you want to be rewarded for just participation.

The reward would be reduced from the current level, and would require more attention than you describe, but would be more in line with the difficulty level of the rest of the game. I understand that this does not appeal to you, but you are not the intended audience for this mode, and will already have a mode more suited to your tastes.

Could you just accept that there is a content not for you, while you can enjoy 95% of the game freely? Or you’re just greedy and you won’t give up until you can have legenderay armor? you should look closer to your signature btw…

I put that sig there for a reason, because it’s a silly statement that I receive constantly. and why should I just give up on things I want just because 95% of the game is something else? Wouldn’t it make more sense for you to give up on having 5% of the game all to yourself? That’s the whole problem here, that this is mostly a game very much unlike raids, and yet raiders feel entitled to carve a chunk out of it that the rest of the players cannot be a part of (without radically changing how they play the game in ways that they will not enjoy).

I think it;s more important to be consistent, that a very hard game remains very hard throughout, and that a relatively casual game be relatively casual across the board. Having out of place difficulty spikes just disrupts the overall harmony of the game, like having a mild cake with a wad of pure sugar in the middle, or a plate of mild buffalo wings that have one ghost pepper wing in there.

When you asked people to leave the game ?

I didn’t ask anyone to leave, I just suggested that people who are unsatisfied with the overall difficulty level of GW2 might be happier moving to a game that offered the difficulty level they desired in most of their content, rather than attempting to wedge that hire difficulty into a game where it just does not belong. People that are happy playing the game as it was before raids are welcome to stay.

you are, actually. Remember, you want envoy armor in an easy mode raid as difficult as infantile SAB…(remember, you want no wipe, no training mode, no group composition, just spam 1 with whatever random player / build in order to have raid rewards)
so yes, you want to be rewarded for just participation.

The reward would be reduced from the current level, and would require more attention than you describe, but would be more in line with the difficulty level of the rest of the game. I understand that this does not appeal to you, but you are not the intended audience for this mode, and will already have a mode more suited to your tastes.

if it’s like story mode dungeon, why not ^^ after all, less challenge, less reward (quality and quantity, that’s just logical, asking the contrary would just be illogical).

Could you just accept that there is a content not for you, while you can enjoy 95% of the game freely? Or you’re just greedy and you won’t give up until you can have legenderay armor? you should look closer to your signature btw…

I put that sig there for a reason, because it’s a silly statement that I receive constantly. and why should I just give up on things I want just because 95% of the game is something else? Wouldn’t it make more sense for you to give up on having 5% of the game all to yourself? That’s the whole problem here, that this is mostly a game very much unlike raids, and yet raiders feel entitled to carve a chunk out of it that the rest of the players cannot be a part of (without radically changing how they play the game in ways that they will not enjoy).

I think it;s more important to be consistent, that a very hard game remains very hard throughout, and that a relatively casual game be relatively casual across the board. Having out of place difficulty spikes just disrupts the overall harmony of the game, like having a mild cake with a wad of pure sugar in the middle, or a plate of mild buffalo wings that have one ghost pepper wing in there.

And Anet disagrees with you, after all, they put raid well knowing it would be more challenging than the rest of the game. And they even agree that fractal would probably need to be revamped in order to close the gap between the raids and the rest of the game.

if it’s like story mode dungeon, why not ^^ after all, less challenge, less reward (quality and quantity, that’s just logical, asking the contrary would just be illogical).

I was aiming more for Exploration Mode dungeon. Making a Story Mode version would likely not be worth the effort.

And Anet disagrees with you, after all, they put raid well knowing it would be more challenging than the rest of the game.

ANet makes mistakes. Constantly. Usually they get around to fixing them. The only problem with making a mistake is when you refuse to fix it.

if it’s like story mode dungeon, why not ^^ after all, less challenge, less reward (quality and quantity, that’s just logical, asking the contrary would just be illogical).

I was aiming more for Exploration Mode dungeon. Making a Story Mode version would likely not be worth the effort.

And Anet disagrees with you, after all, they put raid well knowing it would be more challenging than the rest of the game.

ANet makes mistakes. Constantly. Usually they get around to fixing them. The only problem with making a mistake is when you refuse to fix it.

Except raid are like actual explorable dungeon. Dont you want easy mode for the story and peacefull fight without wipe? that’s like story mode dungeon for me.

For you, it’s a mistake. Not for me. On the contrary, following your ideas would be a huge mistake, destroying one of the most successfull thing in HOT. There are things to fix, but not raids.

Except raid are like actual explorable dungeon..

No, if raids were like Explorable dungeons then we wouldn’t have an issue. The issue is that they require a significantly higher investment of time, gearing, coordination, and practice than any explorable dungeon. What I’m looking for is a Forsaken Thicket experience that is comparable in time and challenge level as an average explorable dungeon. You can’t rationally argue that this is already available, only that you don’t want it to be available.

Dont you want easy mode for the story and peacefull fight without wipe? that’s like story mode dungeon for me.

But the thing with Story Mode dungeons is that they have no replay value, and if they design it to be something that everyone only plays once, then I don’t feel it would be worth the investment. If they’re going to take the time to develop an alternate version of the raid, then it should come in the form of replayable content, something that players can do on a weekly or daily basis and feel that their time was well spent.

For you, it’s a mistake. Not for me. On the contrary, following your ideas would be a huge mistake, destroying one of the most successfull thing in HOT. There are things to fix, but not raids.

That’s your opinion, I was just responding to your assertion that “because this is how ANet did it, it is the Right way to do it, and they’ll never change their mind on it.” It’s your opinion that raids are already in their perfect state, but just because this is how they are right now, means nothing about what they could be in the future. Remember that the game did without raids entirely for three years, and was fine without them, so if we were to apply your same logic to the game this time two years ago, the result would be “ANet has decided that this game should not have raids, and it never will.”

IndigoSundown.5419:

Torolan.5816:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Torolan.5816:

I rather make the assumption that the number of incoming raiders is smaller than the number of casual players who left because they did not like the new direction of GW2. Anet already heavily backpeddaled with Hot and both of the new maps.

Disliking raids and disliking HoT/WvW/PvP are not the same thing. You link them, apparently, because you dislike both.

My Silver Knight and Tiger ranks disagree with your assumption that I dislike wvw and don´t play pvp. i would be superhappy if Wvw was the endgame of GW2 for example, it very much reminds me of RvRvR from DAOc, but it has some visible flaws and has always been the stepchild.

I also have to agree with Ohoni that raiding is not fun for everyone who tried it. I tried both VG and Escort to see how it is and I find both of these events already tiresome and boring for multiple reasons. I would probably ragequit if I had to face the tougher mobs and wipe even more often for nothing.

I misspoke. I meant to say that you link raids and HoT and (apparently) dislike both, perhaps including the DBL.

I am not the biggest fan of the DBL, but they are basically ok.
I got used to HoT over time, although I find it still tedious and hard to navigate. Especially the last point bugs me as I already spend days wandering around in dark, confusing and lonely places when I was in the military and do not look to do this again in my free time. I have no problems with the mobs there, a game needs new mobs then and when.

You are right when you say that I loathe raids and cringe every time I read about the introduction of even more raids into GW2. It is only the second content(SAB being the first) I adamantly refuse to do after some initial tries to see if I could get used to it in the span of four years, so I am of course concerned if it gets more space instead of stuff I could at least force myself through. I can´t even ignore them like I ignored PvP for the longest time because they hide stuff i would like to build and mastery points.

PS: Anet rather elelgantly solved the lore problem with the diaries. I am satisfied on that front at least with raids.^^

It seems to be rather easy to blame your least favorite part of the game for everything that went wrong.
People used to blame the new focus on E-sports (some still do), others blamed the supposed focus on WvW, some blame the reappearing Living Story, some blamed the first expansion and but now it is all about raids.

Dadnir.5038:

Logically there is no legit reason for an enrage mechanism. A wounded beast or human will not enrage, it will flee. If the fight continue longer, logically there will be new foes that will come to mess up with the outcome and screw up your strategy but the ennemy won’t suddenly become stronger and do more damage.

I just found a new favorite quote that really rings true with me,

“If an injury has been dealt to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared"

and also..

“Who is most dangerous – a man with nothing to lose or a man with everything to lose?”

The last one is a matter of perspective imo

One of the posters put above “just recognize that some content isn’t for you” and I think that is where the problem is to be found. I and a great many other players of GW2 did recognize that raids were not for us…..and that is why there are so few people doing them now.

Back when raids first came about, my guild quickly organised groups to do them. We were a large and diverse guild that had achieved a well developed guildhall and whose membership was a good range of new to older players, of varying levels of MMO experience. We soon encountered the vale guardian and worked out the strategy needed. We got a few “almost kills” and could see where the issues were (mistakes, poor communication, etc).

After a while it became clear that we needed to do some optimising. Anyone who had gear with a WvW focus was running with overly high levels of toughness, for example and certain classes, like strong healing druids or chronomancers, were notably necessary, as well as some dedicated tanks who had the skill and equipment to hold and move the vale guardian to the right spots. This immediately shook a few people loose and much of it was about gear. There were clearly people in the guild who had spare or alternative gear and there were others who had no such access….skill didn’t affect who fell in those categories, it was usually their game area of interest and how much luck they had had on drops. We lost high skill players at that point because they just didn’t meet the wealth curve to alter their equipment.

Then came the time issue and organisation. This shed a few other people, who just couldn’t afford to put in the time needed to cope with an evening of wipes and learning. There were also some people who didn’t out couldn’t use teamspeak and they went out pretty quickly too. It was soon the case that our guild could field a fairly workable raid group one or two nights a week and that was about it.

Time, attrition and slow loss of interest soon meant that our guild couldn’t do it anymore and our guild was pretty large. The elitism barriers went up fast and soon anyone wanting to learn was seen more as an obstacle. Serious raiding members of the guild spent their time outside the guild with their own kind, prizing success over the social ties that the guild had.

The upshot of it is that raiding was the last time our large, Heart of Thorns guild had a reason to chat to one another and an objective to try and achieve. Once we realised that this was beyond us, our entire guild fragmented and raid capable players broke away or were made to feel unwelcome by players who no longer felt kinship with them.

How would I have changed things? I would have made two changes. Firstly, there needed to be a much more forgiving initial raid encounter than the vale guardian was and it should have been much less of an exercise in tanking perfection. We very quickly had to force players into a strict tanking role and most of those with classes capable of doing that either had non suitable equipment or just didn’t enjoy either the pressure or the activity of it.

I would also have added a story mode, with minor or no rewards, just so people could do the raids in a “raid-lite” style. This would let them see the story, learn the mechanics and feel a part of things. As it was, the raids had a very quick roadblock barrier that far too many players were made to feel unwelcome at.

I like raids and I welcome their part in guildwars, but their implementation was a disaster and one that has dealt far too many guilds and social relationships in this game a deathblow and that damage desperately needs to be undone.

For every guild that raids were the ‘last straw to break apart’ for, another guild returned or was formed to dedicate to the new content.

I really like how you emphasized how large your guild was, as if size mattered for a guild. I don’t know the whole state or active status of your guildmates were prior to raiding (20 online at one time, 100 online at one time, etc), the social interactions, cliques or other such groups. I can only gleam from the information you provided here.

But I take great offense to the notion that raids were purely the cause of the fractures in your story. It’s highly likely there was far more going on. There’s also the lovely bit of knowledge known about raids, in their optional status. If I had to speculate the turn of events, Raids were the first difficult group content your guild needed to create groups for, as you said. But given the group constraints, gear requirements, time, organization…it was only natural for certain members of your guild who managed to pull something together to want to progress together, without bringing anyone else with them at that point.

Then the excuses started rolling in, people didn’t want to wipe all night to progress, people didn’t want to come on Teamspeak, both things you expect from any normal raider. This isn’t being elitist, the content wasn’t a joke. And the few individuals in your guild who really found something they liked in the game just could not stick around any longer.

What’s really intriguing is that Raids were, in your words ‘the last time our large, Heart of Thorns guild had a reason to chat to one another and an objective to try and achieve.’

Were you doing guild missions still? Making up guild activities, trying other things? Were things quiet in your guild till raids arrived and got you all playing again?

It sounds MORE like your large guild wasn’t even playing together really, well before raids came out. If anything, what you guys want isn’t a raid, you want something you guys can do more as a guild.

Better guild missions, new guild mission rewards, incentives to play together.

Raids didn’t fracture anything, they just showed the ugly truth about the lack of guild content development.

Well, the problem was that raid content was the only content. Why would we still be doing guild missions when nobody needs the paltry rewards and the exercise lacks challenge or purpose? Guilds are about doing things together and raids should be about a group of people doing a thing together. That just didn’t work out, unfortunately. I would love for there to be a raid that was basically a ten man dungeon, but instead it wasn’t about a group, it was just about the difficulty.

We need social, group experiences in the game and raiding failed spectacularly to fill that slot.

That’s something you will have to take up with the Guild Devs, honestly I agree with you, Guild Halls were a feature that ‘appeared’ to be a kind of content that would satisfy guilds for some time.

They underestimated guilds, hence why we have the drought.

For every guild that raids were the ‘last straw to break apart’ for, another guild returned or was formed to dedicate to the new content.

Evidence?

But I take great offense to the notion that raids were purely the cause of the fractures in your story. It’s highly likely there was far more going on. There’s also the lovely bit of knowledge known about raids, in their optional status. If I had to speculate the turn of events, Raids were the first difficult group content your guild needed to create groups for, as you said. But given the group constraints, gear requirements, time, organization…it was only natural for certain members of your guild who managed to pull something together to want to progress together, without bringing anyone else with them at that point.

Well, you would clearly know better than he why his guild broke down.

chronometria.3708:

One of the posters put above “just recognize that some content isn’t for you” and I think that is where the problem is to be found. I and a great many other players of GW2 did recognize that raids were not for us…..and that is why there are so few people doing them now.

Back when raids first came about, my guild quickly organised groups to do them. We were a large and diverse guild that had achieved a well developed guildhall and whose membership was a good range of new to older players, of varying levels of MMO experience. We soon encountered the vale guardian and worked out the strategy needed. We got a few “almost kills” and could see where the issues were (mistakes, poor communication, etc).

After a while it became clear that we needed to do some optimising. Anyone who had gear with a WvW focus was running with overly high levels of toughness, for example and certain classes, like strong healing druids or chronomancers, were notably necessary, as well as some dedicated tanks who had the skill and equipment to hold and move the vale guardian to the right spots. This immediately shook a few people loose and much of it was about gear. There were clearly people in the guild who had spare or alternative gear and there were others who had no such access….skill didn’t affect who fell in those categories, it was usually their game area of interest and how much luck they had had on drops. We lost high skill players at that point because they just didn’t meet the wealth curve to alter their equipment.

Then came the time issue and organisation. This shed a few other people, who just couldn’t afford to put in the time needed to cope with an evening of wipes and learning. There were also some people who didn’t out couldn’t use teamspeak and they went out pretty quickly too. It was soon the case that our guild could field a fairly workable raid group one or two nights a week and that was about it.

Time, attrition and slow loss of interest soon meant that our guild couldn’t do it anymore and our guild was pretty large. The elitism barriers went up fast and soon anyone wanting to learn was seen more as an obstacle. Serious raiding members of the guild spent their time outside the guild with their own kind, prizing success over the social ties that the guild had.

The upshot of it is that raiding was the last time our large, Heart of Thorns guild had a reason to chat to one another and an objective to try and achieve. Once we realised that this was beyond us, our entire guild fragmented and raid capable players broke away or were made to feel unwelcome by players who no longer felt kinship with them.

How would I have changed things? I would have made two changes. Firstly, there needed to be a much more forgiving initial raid encounter than the vale guardian was and it should have been much less of an exercise in tanking perfection. We very quickly had to force players into a strict tanking role and most of those with classes capable of doing that either had non suitable equipment or just didn’t enjoy either the pressure or the activity of it.

I would also have added a story mode, with minor or no rewards, just so people could do the raids in a “raid-lite” style. This would let them see the story, learn the mechanics and feel a part of things. As it was, the raids had a very quick roadblock barrier that far too many players were made to feel unwelcome at.

I like raids and I welcome their part in guildwars, but their implementation was a disaster and one that has dealt far too many guilds and social relationships in this game a deathblow and that damage desperately needs to be undone.

This was well written and illustrates the problem very well. Thank you.

And to the point that someone else brought up that “it may have destroyed some guilds but it brought others back,” that is exactly why a middle ground is needed in this content – why the “do it this way or GTFO” approach doesn’t really work – especially if the content is seen by many as part of the GW2 end game.

Wow who would have thought a guild in an mmo would disband because different members had different priorities? This is surely the first time this has ever happened.

NikeEU.7690:

Wow who would have thought a guild in an mmo would disband because different members had different priorities? This is surely the first time this has ever happened.

Oh hey, its the guy who got his guild kicked from raid testing.

Please bless us with your wisdom senpai. Also, any more leaks?

MashMash.1645:

Oh hey, its the guy who got his guild kicked from raid testing.

Please bless us with your wisdom senpai. Also, any more leaks?

Tbh that thing of stupidity was funny but what is the purpose of your post mentioning that? Or better, what are you contributing to the recent discussion?

Evidence?

The same place he pulled his anecdotal evidence from.

Well, you would clearly know better than he why his guild broke down.

His guild wasn’t chatting at all before raiding was happening. Sounds like a case of ‘Guild was already dead’ and they tried to make raids bring them all together again. Turns out that was a bad idea on their part.

Vinceman.4572:

MashMash.1645:

Oh hey, its the guy who got his guild kicked from raid testing.

Please bless us with your wisdom senpai. Also, any more leaks?

Tbh that thing of stupidity was funny but what is the purpose of your post mentioning that? Or better, what are you contributing to the recent discussion?

I think he’s attempting to demerit the poster’s argument by attacking the person there.

Nike’s kind of a sarcastic kitten, but his point rings true.

Yeah, my question to him was more like rhetorical. It contributed nothing but an insult.

Evidence?

The same place he pulled his anecdotal evidence from.

He said that his guild broke down. He cited his source. You claimed a numerical statistic, that for every guild that broke down, another was created or strengthened by the raids, -1 +1. I’d just like to know where you got that information.

Ohoni.6057:

Evidence?

The same place he pulled his anecdotal evidence from.

He said that his guild broke down. He cited his source. You claimed a numerical statistic, that for every guild that broke down, another was created or strengthened by the raids, -1 +1. I’d just like to know where you got that information.

Read his last tidbit:

I like raids and I welcome their part in guildwars, but their implementation was a disaster and one that has dealt far too many guilds and social relationships in this game a deathblow and that damage desperately needs to be undone.

He brought up the argument first, my response was a retort for this line.

He said that his guild broke down. He cited his source. You claimed a numerical statistic, that for every guild that broke down, another was created or strengthened by the raids, -1 +1. I’d just like to know where you got that information.

Pot, meet kettle. You claim numerical statistics all the time. You claim that large numbers of players would benefit from your proposals. Yet, you offer nothing to support that position. Why should he?

He brought up the argument first, my response was a retort for this line.

And again, nothing he said involved a quantity. He did not say “the majority,” or “most” or anything that would require evidence to support it. You, on the other hand, insisted on at minimum a more than 50/50 ratio in favor of more guilds than less, and to support this premise, you would need to have figures on how many guilds collapsed verse how many thrived. I’m asking for that evidence.

Ohoni.6057:

He brought up the argument first, my response was a retort for this line.

And again, nothing he said involved a quantity.

He said there was too many which is an arbitrary number despite what you think.

I answered his hyperbole with my own, both are flawed arguments in that they are anecdotal which was my point there.

As far as I am concerned, it’s utterly impossible to calculate either number, and you know it as well.

He said there was too many which is an arbitrary number despite what you think.

“Too many” is purely arbitrary. It could be ten thousand, it could just be one, and either is a fine opinion to hold. You said that “more” went to the positive, which is a quantity, that if ten went bad, at least ten, maybe eleven or more went good. Yours can be evaluated factually if you provide the numbers you used to arrive at that figure, his has no such burden.

Ohoni.6057:

He said there was too many which is an arbitrary number despite what you think.

“Too many” is purely arbitrary. It could be ten thousand, it could just be one, and either is a fine opinion to hold. You said that “more” went to the positive, which is a quantity, that if ten went bad, at least ten, maybe eleven or more went good. Yours can be evaluated factually if you provide the numbers you used to arrive at that figure, his has no such burden.

But it’s going off the number that he’s implying. Regardless of whether the number is 1 to infinite, stating that ‘too many’ is still anecdotal of which I can respond with an equivalent statement as well.

I am fine with saying my statement can’t be proven as there is no evidence, but that also indicates that his ‘too many’ unknown number is also unproven and it is impossible to find the evidence. That was my point.

But it’s going off the number that he’s implying.

But again, saying “whatever numbers you have, I have more on my side,” is making a number judgement. If someone says they have “plenty of grapes,” that could mean 3, 5, 20, anything, and would be valid, because it’s “plenty” to him. If you then say “I have more grapes than you,” then that is a provably true or false statement. For your statement to be valid, you need to both have a number of grapes yourself, and have yours be more than his. If you only have ten grapes, and he has five, you’re correct. If he has twenty, you’re incorrect. If neither of you has any accurate numbers either way, his statement is valid, yours cannot be.

I never said I had more on my side, I said:

For every guild that raids were the ‘last straw to break apart’ for, another guild returned or was formed to dedicate to the new content.

I went 1 for 1 intentionally. I had no reason to try to ‘outnumber’ his anecdote.

Yes, raids are controversial. They split the pve community into groups – one of which looks down on anything other than raiding as “kiddie content” and the other that is envious of the experience (fight mechanics, story, etc) of raids. Yes, they could partake in that content as easily as any raider, but in the current model, that means potentially compromising and changing the things they love most about their characters and how they play (they petty much have to subscribe to the Stepford Wife program in order to keep raids from being frustrating and un-fun). When your primary source of joy in the game comes from making your character unique and your own (or at least achieving the illusion of such), asking players to give that up is a really big deal.

oi oi oi. Some of us are not envious of raid experience. Some of us are choosing to not do raids because I do not like mechanics. I am getting bored of ridiculous high health mobs and dps progress bars.

I realize i do not care about difficulty. I really like interesting battles.

For every guild that raids were the ‘last straw to break apart’ for, another guild returned or was formed to dedicate to the new content.

I went 1 for 1 intentionally. I had no reason to try to ‘outnumber’ his anecdote.

Ok, fair point, but what I said in my last post would still apply. to make the claim that your number had ANY objective relative value when compared to his, more, less, equal, or even not equal, you would need access to both sides of the figures for your statement to be accurate. That is a different burden of evidence than making a subjective value judgement like “enough,” or “plenty.”

Ohoni.6057:

For every guild that raids were the ‘last straw to break apart’ for, another guild returned or was formed to dedicate to the new content.

I went 1 for 1 intentionally. I had no reason to try to ‘outnumber’ his anecdote.

Ok, fair point, but what I said in my last post would still apply. to make the claim that your number had ANY objective relative value when compared to his, more, less, equal, or even not equal, you would need access to both sides of the figures for your statement to be accurate. That is a different burden of evidence than making a subjective value judgement like “enough,” or “plenty.”

We can make this really simple mainly because it’s utterly irrelevant at this point to the discussion. My anecdote here was not valid as there was no way to substantiate it with evidence of any sort. I used it playfully against his point that ‘too many’ guilds had fractured of which I heavily doubt he has any sort of evidence for either.

That was my intent, to use a flawed point against another flawed point. It was crude at best, are you satisfied or do you want to try defending his point about ‘too many guilds’ fracturing with evidence of your own? If not, we can go back to our regularly scheduled talk.

Ok, accepted, but remember, the point “too many guilds” needs no evidentiary backing because it’s a purely subjective claim. If he believes it’s too many, that makes it a true statement.

Ohoni.6057:

If he believes it’s too many, that makes it a true statement.

If we started believing everything people said in their subjective opinions were true, we would be having far more bigger issues than just GW2.

MashMash.1645:

NikeEU.7690:

Wow who would have thought a guild in an mmo would disband because different members had different priorities? This is surely the first time this has ever happened.

Oh hey, its the guy who got his guild kicked from raid testing.

Please bless us with your wisdom senpai. Also, any more leaks?

And yet my guild is still here and better than ever while we are discussing your dead guild. Evidently I know a quite a few things you don’t.

If we started believing everything people said in their subjective opinions were true, we would be having far more bigger issues than just GW2.

I think you miss the point. You don’t have to agree with him that “too many guilds” are being harmed by this, but neither can you dispute his claim because it’s purely subjective. The statement is automatically accurate because it stakes out no objective position in the first place.

I think you miss the point. You don’t have to agree with him that “too many guilds” are being harmed by this, but neither can you dispute his claim because it’s purely subjective. The statement is automatically accurate because it stakes out no objective position in the first place.

His position is that there are too many guilds fracturing. That’s extremely objective, and it should be questioned with inquiries into evidence. If however it is something that comes from his subjective opinion like you have said here, it should be ignored as it is not anything up for discussion. It expresses no desire to be proven wrong, and that is a disappointing stance.

That’s extremely objective, and it should be questioned with inquiries into evidence.

If you have evidence, then sure, but if you don’t have evidence, then there’s nothing you can do. : (

Ohoni.6057:

That’s extremely objective, and it should be questioned with inquiries into evidence.

If you have evidence, then sure, but if you don’t have evidence, then there’s nothing you can do. : (

More or less the undertone for all of the raiding threads. No one knows a single thing about the raiding statistics in this game. We can only speculate, and look at other cases where such solutions were applied and make our own logic from them. Even the 3rd party sites have to be taken with a grain of salt.