Raiding as of now

Raiding as of now

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Raven.1524

Raven.1524

How do you guys think raiding on guild wars 2 is at this point compared to other mmos in terms of difficulty and fun?
I’ve seen a lot of comparisons with other games, but never raid encounter comparisons, and was simply curious about it.

Raiding as of now

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Posted by: BlaqueFyre.5678

BlaqueFyre.5678

Compared to Raiding in WoW before I left after Cata, Gw2 has more forgiving raids in the sense of no real Enrage mechanics that one shot you unlike most WoW raid bosses, the mechanics for the most part allow for less stagnant fights, and put more emphasis on Raid awareness and Mechanical skill over DPSMoAR. Which is a relief, they could tweak some bosses to make them more challenging (maybe more challenge notes)but right now they are in a good spot if left as they are.

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Posted by: Warcry.1596

Warcry.1596

I can’t speak of other mmos but I actually find the alot of the raid encounters in here to just be unexciting. I love the mechanics of some of them but it’s all too fast I think =/

“He shall make whole that which was torn asunder.
Restore that which was lost. And all shall be as one.”

Raiding as of now

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Posted by: Yobculture.5786

Yobculture.5786

Need to be made more difficult.

Far Shiverpeaks

Raiding as of now

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Posted by: abullenfla.9632

abullenfla.9632

Just from a mechanics standpoint i would say the bosses are probably easier than in other mmos although i must admit i don’t have that much experience with raiding in other mmos just a little bit here an there. The difficulty comes from the fact that you only have 10 persons instead of the 20 or 40 of other mmos so there is more responsibility on every single person . The small number of people aswell as the aggro mechanic limits the mechanics you can do for example you cannot do some fancy boss mechanics with offtanks where the offtank has to taunt the boss because the main tank has gotten to many stacks of a debuff and has to get rid of them someway to get back tanking.
Another thing that increases the difficulty is the gear progression in GW you have the best gear when you enter the raid (or exotic which isn’t that much of a difference) and you have the best gear when you complete it. In other mmos the raids get significantly easier once you’ve killed a boss multiple times not only because of experience but also because your gear gets significantly better. A Good Veteran player in gw can outdps a new guy but he can only do so much whereas in other mmos you can have overgeared people that can compensate for new players with worse gear more easily aslong as the tank can hold aggro.
That beeing said the bosses are definatly fun, enjoyable, have a decent difficulty and are different from each other even though the limitations of 10 players and the aggromechanic exists.

Raiding as of now

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Posted by: Magnus Godrik.5841

Magnus Godrik.5841

Raids are perfectly fine in GW2. No need for hard or easy mode because once you know the fight it gets easier everytime. If you want it more challenging try it with 8 or simple downgrade you gear to blues and greens.

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Posted by: SlippyCheeze.5483

SlippyCheeze.5483

Compared to Raiding in WoW before I left after Cata, Gw2 has more forgiving raids in the sense of no real Enrage mechanics that one shot you unlike most WoW raid bosses, the mechanics for the most part allow for less stagnant fights, and put more emphasis on Raid awareness and Mechanical skill over DPSMoAR. Which is a relief, they could tweak some bosses to make them more challenging (maybe more challenge notes)but right now they are in a good spot if left as they are.

FWIW, WoW raids post-cata have moved in a similar direction to what GW2 have implemented. It’s more or less “the” model for MMO these days. (Wildstar brought out ultra-hardcore-only raids because people said they would pay for them, fell in a pile of fail because nobody really did want that sort of thing, and then moved to the same model.)

So, more awareness and mechanics, less DPS uber alles, everywhere. Which is a good thing.

Raiding as of now

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Posted by: Exciton.8942

Exciton.8942

As a casual raider, I find them very fun to play. The difficulty also feels just about right.

I do expect a bit more variety in mechanics and would love to see more boss that work like matthias.

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Posted by: Bread.7516

Bread.7516

It’s not a fight against a boss, it;s a fight against mechanics; player is not interacting with the enemy itself rather enemy does his own thing regardless of what the player does.

There is no sense of actual combat such as control of spacing and timing, positioning is forced or superficial in most cases.

This can be a point of improvement as the challenge of raid encounters is almost only knowing the mechanics.

The spacing may not be applicable due to the direction of where anet wants combat to be, but there is almost no interaction with enemy which makes it a bit dull imo and maybe there can be improvement on that area.

(edited by Bread.7516)

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Posted by: Amineo.8951

Amineo.8951

It’s easy but people tends to make it sound harder than it is (LI requirements are a good example of that).

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Posted by: Zenith.7301

Zenith.7301

Raids are limited by the combat in GW2 itself. It doesn’t have the depth GW1 did.

Some classes easily fart all the necessary boons for the group with little effort required instead of requiring frequent, smart use of combo fields and multiple people to stack 25 might and keep permanent fury up.

Same goes for debuffs, when one class can keep vulnerability maxed, another class can cover boons, all you worry about after is stacking the highest DPS class.

DPS balance in this game is atrocious as well, so only a few classes get to function as damage dealers while other classes are stuck in support boon bot builds.

It also doesn’t help Anet doesn’t want to make up its mind. They didn’t want a dedicated healer, until they wasted Ranger’s elite spec on being specifically a healer, and then when it became a dominant healer because it is an elite spec entirely centered around healing with no good competitively offensive options, Anet nerfed druid some more so they would have to pigeonhole themselves even more into healing gear to compensate.

They made chronomancer a purely support build since mesmer DPS is trash, and then they nerf the support contributions without compensating the mesmer in personal DPS.

Nerf revenant damage under the excuse that they offered plenty of group support, then proceed to nerf that group support as well while leaving DPS the same.

Necromancer for once achieves some relevance in its only good build, the condi build that requires a lot of gimmicks to merit bringing over yet another elementalist or thief, and they go and nerf condimancer so it can go sit in the corner of mediocrity alongside its pathetic power greatsword builds.

(edited by Zenith.7301)

Raiding as of now

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

Raids are limited by the combat in GW2 itself. It doesn’t have the depth GW1 did.

I guess we must play different versions of GW1 & GW2. I think GW2 combat is much more interesting, nuanced, and deep than GW1.

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

Raiding as of now

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Posted by: ADTempys.6382

ADTempys.6382

Can do almost all fights without a dodge or caring about something if you have competent chronos.

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Posted by: Ocosh.5843

Ocosh.5843

I raided in WoW through Cata and then left. I’ve heard the design mentality changed somewhat since then (or continued in the direction in which it was already trending). Tried a few other MMOs but only entered endgame pve in one and it was awful.

When I came to GW2, I frankly found the pve to be quite lackluster. By the time I arrived (later 2013) it was just speedrun dungeons and 1-spam world bosses. If it weren’t for the glory days of WvW and the solid PvP system, I probably would have left.

This may come off as harsh, but I think the major stumbling block with raids in GW2 was the fact that the majority of the pve playerbase was acclimated to simplistic and unchallenging content. This meant two things: First, that the level of committment necessary to perform optimally was minimal; and second that there was very little in the way of pve guild culture. Plainly, a lot of people aren’t very good and they’re not aware that some content demands more of them.

This wasn’t a problem early on. The emphasis on a relaxed, casual, grind-free approach cultivated a playerbase many of whom could be satisfied with a thoughtless romp. You just showed up, stood in the right place and hit the buttons, and left. This is fine, but it does not prepare people for raids; nor, perhaps more importantly, does it build guilds. A successful raiding “scene” can’t really rely on pugs. People will sour on the whole deal very quickly.

The raids are very well done. They use a lot of what is unique about the GW2 group combat system to create engaging group content, although they could always explore further down that avenue. They are not particularly challenging, and I’ve always viewed it as weak design when the player is required to find some way to introduce more challenge. That said, it’s a fine speed for a lot of tastes — such as a retired raider turned into a casual scrub and pvper like myself.

Most of the struggle comes from the fact the community was not trained for raiding, and while high-level Fractals might provide some of the style of content necessary to introduce people to the idea, there is no clearly presented flow (such as in WoW, which basically told you: “do these dungeons, now do these, now do this attunement, now get this gear, now raid”). Additionally, the time it takes to grind up AR means that people who join the game now and want to get into raiding aren’t likely to spend time in T3/T4 Fractals before trying the raid.

I could come up with specific “raid encounter comparisons” like the OP asks, but I’ve already used a lot of space. I’ll just say that there’s only so much one can do with endgame pve in the current MMO model. The rule is always: Don’t stand in the fire; and the answer to a challenge is always: More damage. That said, I think GW2 could take advantage of some of its neat mechanics (like combos, bundles, transforms, etc.) to create encounters that are more than ‘burn the badguy’ but don’t veer into gimmickry.

Raiding as of now

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Posted by: Rain.9213

Rain.9213

Raids are limited by the combat in GW2 itself. It doesn’t have the depth GW1 did.

Some classes easily fart all the necessary boons for the group with little effort required instead of requiring frequent, smart use of combo fields and multiple people to stack 25 might and keep permanent fury up.

Same goes for debuffs, when one class can keep vulnerability maxed, another class can cover boons, all you worry about after is stacking the highest DPS class.

DPS balance in this game is atrocious as well, so only a few classes get to function as damage dealers while other classes are stuck in support boon bot builds.

It also doesn’t help Anet doesn’t want to make up its mind. They didn’t want a dedicated healer, until they wasted Ranger’s elite spec on being specifically a healer, and then when it became a dominant healer because it is an elite spec entirely centered around healing with no good competitively offensive options, Anet nerfed druid some more so they would have to pigeonhole themselves even more into healing gear to compensate.

They made chronomancer a purely support build since mesmer DPS is trash, and then they nerf the support contributions without compensating the mesmer in personal DPS.

Nerf revenant damage under the excuse that they offered plenty of group support, then proceed to nerf that group support as well while leaving DPS the same.

Necromancer for once achieves some relevance in its only good build, the condi build that requires a lot of gimmicks to merit bringing over yet another elementalist or thief, and they go and nerf condimancer so it can go sit in the corner of mediocrity alongside its pathetic power greatsword builds.

This is sadly too accurate….

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Posted by: Ocosh.5843

Ocosh.5843

Actually, it occurs to me that there is a tidy comparison to make, encounter-to-encounter. It’s a single data point, so it doesn’t answer everything, but it should serve as a decent illustration of the point.

Slothasor is Grobbulus. Grob was a boss in Naxxramas, the first raid of WLK (the second expansion), which was on the easy side, as it was designed to get people back into raiding after the end-of-expac downtime, and to introduce new raiders to the concept. That said, Grob was in the Plague Wing, after Patchwerk and before Gluth and Thaddeus, which I think was considered one of the tougher wings, so relatively speaking it was harder than most of the other bosses in the same raid.

Note that this being the first raid of the second expac, this is going back about 8 years, so my memory of the encounter is apt to be a bit hazy, and there will be a lot of “iirc” here.

Grob was a gigantic, fleshy science-experiment monster man with machine parts and a nozzle hand. He was in a big, rectangular room with a few alcoves, and a ramp at the far side, which was either inaccessible when he was alive or else messed with the fight if the person with aggro ran up it.

The standard strategy was for the main tank (MT) to kite Grob around the room by backpedaling, while melee followed on the boss’ heels. I seem to recall that the boss had leashing issues, perhaps due to multiple attacks or his slow AA speed, but in any case it meant he would stagger a lot and sometimes would turn and spew green juice at the melee instead of the tank, so you had to be on your toes.

Throughout the fight, one or two people would periodically get infected with a bomb. You had a few seconds to run back the way you came and drop the bomb at the edge of the path. It would leave an expanding circle of poison that would eventually dissipate (or maybe they didn’t disappear and this was the soft enrage mechanic). (Some groups dropped in the center of the room, but usually that was where you had your healers stand, so it was easier for them if you had the sense to make it to the edge.)

There were also adds that would spawn — oozes — though I don’t recall the triggering event — probably something the boss did. The oozes would aggro onto the healers or perhaps just track toward the boss. In either event, the off-tank(s) (OT) would probably have to pick them up — from range, if I recall, because I think they did a bunch of damage if you were in melee range — and ranged dps had to burn them down. Maybe people also snared them.

There was some other mechanic to the oozes that escapes me. Maybe if multiple ones got together they joined and became a big problem, or maybe that was a different fight entirely.

I seem to recall disliking the fight and it taking a while, which probably meant that Grob had the special ability Damage Sponge, like most of the Plague Wing mobs.

By comparison, Slothasor’s room is filled with poison and interactive mushrooms. You are more or less required to kite, rather than figuring out the strategy. One person acts as MT and kites while everyone else sits on his backside. You still have to watch out for the spew (flame breath) but it’s not buggy (outside of sometimes not rendering).

You get a bomb debuff that drops a poison circle, but you have a special action that allows you to drop it, though there is also a timer (right?) (the Grob one may have been cleansed by healers, but I think it was just on a timer).

The adds can be a pain on Sloth, too, though you can manage their numbers with pulls and cleaving/epi. Eventually, they become numerous and more difficult, functioning as the soft enrage. You will have one person transformed, a feature not found in the WoW encounter, though you could argue that this makes a special-case OT.

Sloth has the shake and condis abound, which you can try to avoid, or can dedicate some attention to removing, kind of like a WoW healer, at the cost of dps, like WoW raid composition decisions.

Notably, Sloth has a very low dps requirement; it’s all about the mechanics. I’d say there’s more personal responsibility in Sloth, but there’s also rubbing downstates. Because all GW2 encounters have to be tuned at a single gear level, Sloth’s low dps requirement makes it a cinch once you get the dance down, much like a WoW encounter once you out-gear it. Sloth can be fun, though I don’t like to pug it. Grob was a chore, but that was probably because our guild was pretty experienced and Naxx wasn’t much of a challenge. Maybe this helps compare the two.

Raiding as of now

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Posted by: Joxer.6024

Joxer.6024

AH!! Good ol Naxx!! that was a fun raid. Remember the “safety dance” boss? Wiped so many raids…lol.
What needs to change is the meta mentality, that’s it. raids are fine and challenging and some are a cake walk, and that’s a good thing. I no longer raid due to restrictions people put on what class to bring and until that changes or Engi’s get some love from ANET I won’t raid but they are in a good place and many folks still have fun them, which is what it is all about!

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Posted by: Cbomb.4310

Cbomb.4310

The raids themselves are pretty easy compared to raids in.. pretty much any MMO, which is a good thing for GW2. It has however turned the community into garbage.

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Posted by: Jman.1975

Jman.1975

As someone whose raided in both GW2 and WoW, I can say that GW2 bosses are a little easier then normal mode in WoW, not even close to heroic mode, and their not comparable with mythic. The main difference to me is that the gw2 community doesn’t really care much for raids compared to other games.