Guild Wars 2

The raids turned out to be much better than I expected. With Gorseval being my favorite so far.

+Finally some content that requires everyone to pull their weight (well mostly)
+The use of mechanics like gliding, pulling of the bosses, splitting up
+Decent level of overall difficulty which requires some dedication and practice to complete the raid easily
+The need to use conditions, toughness gear, some healing, boon rip
+A timer that isn’t too harsh but won’t let people play in fully defensive gear not making the raid a joke (still leaving you some room for toughness and healing, though)
+A decent level of balance amongst all classes (even if some are at an advantage)

-Low rewards not based on the effort they take
-Too short once you get to the point where you clear everything on the first try
-Hiding the already low rewards behind a weekly system
-The lack of a LFG strictly for raids
-The absence of possible difficulty levels (higher timer for example)
-Should have more achievements based around the boss fights instead of the ones on the way

It is a good start. They included a lot of stuff that makes GW2 unique. I seem to be one of the few players who actually like the timer and the need to go mostly offensive, as well.

Never understood why people complain about the lack of freedom to play what they like. You can still play as a tank or healer for the most part. It is simply harder to get any spot other than as a straight DPS if you want to raid.
Games always seem to have had way more variety when you look back in a nostalgic mood. Even though, they quite often come down to 5% tanks, 5% healers, 90% damage dealers just like this one.

Quick explanation (again… there are 10000000 posts on this) of why the timers are necessary to creating a challenge. I’ll explain with an example:

I mainly play tempest. Sometimes, my raid group asks me to run green circles on VG which I do with the standard zerker staff build. I have 11.6k health because my gear has no vitality or toughness on it. During phase 5, if our tank doesn’t move the boss soon enough, our CCs are too slow, our seeker control is bad, etc. green circles will spawn in lit-up zones or it will be impossible to stand in them without going down. If green circles spawn in lit-up zones, I am likely to go down. The pressure is incredibly high.

Let’s say I ran the same fight with soldier’s gear. Suddenly I have 17k health (or whatever the actual number is, I don’t run PTV gear XD) and extra toughness. Seekers don’t hurt nearly as much. I can survive 3-4 more ticks of the lit-up sections. Our ccs can be slow. Our tank can be sloppy because she doesn’t have to worry about me going down. Our seeker control can be almost non-existent. Suddenly, the fight is much easier. Sure it might take longer, but doing 5 more green circles while not having to care is still much easier than having to survive 5 fewer while attempting to maintain DPS.

The bottom line is that extra health and less damage makes content easier, no matter what the mechanics are. Raid timers are not a new method of counteracting this and forcing dps classes to use dps gear. If you want to run soldiers gear on your tank (tanky gear for a tank? :P), I’m sure you could get away with that (even if maybe not the most optimal build). Raid timers are good. You should be failing repeatedly while learning. The expectation of being able to casually clear the raid within a few days is naive and unfounded. No raid in any game has ever been designed for that level of difficulty.

Also, for the people saying that it is impossible to carry people through this content, I ensure you that’s not true. There are currently videos of people 5-manning VG (in fact, its not super rare to see groups selling VG kills to up to 5 people at a time – why you’d actually buy that, I’m not sure, but it happens) and 6-manning Gor (video on reddit came out today) without hitting the enrage timer on either boss. I haven’t actually done any research on whether people have less-than-10-manned Sab, but I can say from experience that my group has essentially 9-manned her (someone went down early in phase 1 or on kiernan and we continued and got the kill anyway). I’m sure better groups could complete her with fewer players. My group has gotten kills on these bosses after a few attempts with players who have literally never tried the fights before. It is certainly possible to carry less skilled players if you yourself can compensate for their lack of skill.

IMO, raids are in a great spot right now and could maybe benefit from slight balance changes (maybe tune down burnzerkers a bit? :P). I can’t wait for the next wing, more bosses, and more answers to the questions Anet has set up in Spirit Vale!

spoj.9672:

I have a problem with all this support for making fights as mechanical as possible. VG and Sabetha both have a lot of mechanics to deal with. And as a result it feels less like you are fighting the boss and more like you are fighting the mechanics/arena. I dont find that fun.

On the other hand Gorseval is much more about the boss itself. Its a lot more fun. But as a result its easier once you get the dps check and basic mechanics sorted. The thing is that style can be really good if its expanded on.

PREACH. IT.

deSade.9437:

spoj.9672:

I have a problem with all this support for making fights as mechanical as possible. VG and Sabetha both have a lot of mechanics to deal with. And as a result it feels less like you are fighting the boss and more like you are fighting the mechanics/arena. I dont find that fun.

On the other hand Gorseval is much more about the boss itself. Its a lot more fun. But as a result its easier once you get the dps check and basic mechanics sorted. The thing is that style can be really good if its expanded on.

PREACH. IT.

I think the intention for the Sabetha fight is that you are fighting the arena. Sure, you’re fighting Sabetha, but you’re fighting all of the bandits in the camp, and they’re all working together to kill you by firing cannons at you, and destroying the platform under your feet, making you fall to your death while they clearly have the ability to survive (Sabetha can shadowstep away). This actually leads to what feels like a more engaging fight to me because I feel like I need to make sure my friends aren’t killed by bandits while also trying to focus on taking down their leader. That kind of effort is exciting!

softblackcarbon.1537:

deSade.9437:

spoj.9672:

I have a problem with all this support for making fights as mechanical as possible. VG and Sabetha both have a lot of mechanics to deal with. And as a result it feels less like you are fighting the boss and more like you are fighting the mechanics/arena. I dont find that fun.

On the other hand Gorseval is much more about the boss itself. Its a lot more fun. But as a result its easier once you get the dps check and basic mechanics sorted. The thing is that style can be really good if its expanded on.

PREACH. IT.

I think the intention for the Sabetha fight is that you are fighting the arena. Sure, you’re fighting Sabetha, but you’re fighting all of the bandits in the camp, and they’re all working together to kill you by firing cannons at you, and destroying the platform under your feet, making you fall to your death while they clearly have the ability to survive (Sabetha can shadowstep away). This actually leads to what feels like a more engaging fight to me because I feel like I need to make sure my friends aren’t killed by bandits while also trying to focus on taking down their leader. That kind of effort is exciting!

We all have our favorite boss, and I don’t think any of us will many anyone else feel that their selection for their favorite is invalidated. I like Gorv, and I probably will find him my favorite for the forseeable future. I don’t like all the hopping around with the platforms on Sabetha, I perfer to be fighting not running to a green circle or to a platform to be launched up to stop a cannon etc. but if you like those mechanics that’s cool. I am sure we will see more of both kinds of fights as there are more raids introduced to the game.

It is my hope that the with future raid wings that they will be alot less predictable. I am fine with it in Raid wing one, as I figure there are players who are going to need that predictability in addition to whatever other help they can get. However for the rest of us, I hope that raid Wing two and beyond keeps us guessing not counting Blue Circles/Eggs in 3.21.

“I shall enlighten you, dps-only zerk meathead: you clearly don’t understand kitten about the fight and you must be lazy if you prefer to mindlessly dps a boss than keep track of mechanics”.
/sigh
There were the means to elaborate a thorough explanation on how one could interpret the post, since apparently people don’t read past spoj’s first paragraph, and on how you could have bosses to be more imposing and threatening by themselves without exaggerations such as “only dps with no mechanics”—but you know what? this forum isn’t really the right place.

softblackcarbon.1537:

deSade.9437:

spoj.9672:

I have a problem with all this support for making fights as mechanical as possible. VG and Sabetha both have a lot of mechanics to deal with. And as a result it feels less like you are fighting the boss and more like you are fighting the mechanics/arena. I dont find that fun.

On the other hand Gorseval is much more about the boss itself. Its a lot more fun. But as a result its easier once you get the dps check and basic mechanics sorted. The thing is that style can be really good if its expanded on.

PREACH. IT.

I think the intention for the Sabetha fight is that you are fighting the arena. Sure, you’re fighting Sabetha, but you’re fighting all of the bandits in the camp, and they’re all working together to kill you by firing cannons at you, and destroying the platform under your feet, making you fall to your death while they clearly have the ability to survive (Sabetha can shadowstep away). This actually leads to what feels like a more engaging fight to me because I feel like I need to make sure my friends aren’t killed by bandits while also trying to focus on taking down their leader. That kind of effort is exciting!

Lack of proper story telling aside, the Sabetha fight is the only one that made sense. The overall fight felt like a whole, “If I’m going down I’m taking you with me!!”

Similar to how the 10-man raid squad is going in to fight Sabetha, she’s pulled together her own squad to retaliate. Whenever she’s getting weary, she escapes to recover only to have one of her officers to maintain pressure on the group of heroes trying to take her down. Other bandits periodically jump into the fight either in person or grab hold of a cannon knowing their boss can get away if the arena is destroyed, but the heroes will be left to fall to their deaths.

I can respect a fight like Gorsy with the challenge being the boss itself, but I’m more of the person who enjoy when the arena is a part of the challenge as well (within reason).

deSade.9437:

spoj.9672:

I have a problem with all this support for making fights as mechanical as possible. VG and Sabetha both have a lot of mechanics to deal with. And as a result it feels less like you are fighting the boss and more like you are fighting the mechanics/arena. I dont find that fun.

On the other hand Gorseval is much more about the boss itself. Its a lot more fun. But as a result its easier once you get the dps check and basic mechanics sorted. The thing is that style can be really good if its expanded on.

PREACH. IT.

I’m actually really surprised that many people have agreed with this opinion. Gorseval is my least favorite fight of the three for the exact reason that some people apparently love it – the fight is less mechanics based, and everyone goes through the same mechanics at the same time as a team. Therefore there is very little personal responsibility on the fight and it doesn’t feel like much of an accomplishment to defeat it. If your group has enough dps then once you learn the egg timings and break patterns the fight goes to farm mode very fast.

Also the opposite side, I actually think the “fighting the arena” thing is a lot of fun and doesn’t feel at all like you aren’t fighting the boss also. The VG fight to me never feels like you aren’t fighting VG itself, and the Sabetha fight I guess is against her entire bandit gang, but I actually think that’s pretty cool from a flavor standpoint. I don’t think that either of them isn’t “about the boss” at all.

To me, most of the enjoyment of the fight is in dealing with the combinations of mechanics. VG’s mechanics (seekers, blue lightning, green lightning, rotating electrified floor) all go on at the same time and can all interact to make the others more difficult to deal with if you aren’t prepared. Sabetha’s mechanics don’t have as much complex inteteraction – it’s mostly just a lot of kitten dropping on you or flying at you while you try to avoid the flame wall and send people up to canons. But having to execute rotations and stack in the right locations and keep kiting bullets etc etc is still pretty fun to me. I also like that a single mistake from one person can ruin the entire fight. Gorseval’s mechanics all come one by one in a predictable order against the entire party at once. If you (or one person on your team who is calling) know the order and you aren’t stupid you have already won. “Watch next attack for slam…get ready to break…hold CC…be ready to get max melee/far/close to avoid black goop….ok break….ok eggs are coming now keep moving…pull him to wall…pull spirits and cleave them down…jump to updraft….” kind of overkill there but it gets the point across – this exact mechanics rotation will occur in every single gorseval fight, and the way to deal with the mechanics is the exact same every time. If your party has the DPS to kill gorseval without using updrafts the fight is even more of a joke.

This predictability exists in VG and sab too, but at least in those fights there is a lot of kitten going on at once, so even if you know things are coming if they interact with each other you might have to deal with a unforseen difficult situation like seekers + blue on lightning field or something. Gorseval’s only interacting mechanic is orbs, but if your elementalist is good those should be a non-issue.

I’m not saying your opinion is “wrong” or something, it’s not like I can tell you how you feel lol. I just wanted to offer a differing opinion on the 3 fights, because I personally would much rather see more fights like VG than like Gorseval and I would assume there are others that feel the same way.

Having fights be more mechanics based versus dps based also makes them much more accessible to players without a lot of money to spend on ascended gear, which judging by some of the responses in this thread is an issue people care about lol.

I think it’s a good sign if people cannot agree on which boss is the best.

You didnt read the rest of my post. I said Gorseval style mechanics should be expanded upon. To the point where there is a significant amount so that it feels mechanic heavy. They can be as punishing as eggs where if you dont all avoid them the group is very likely to fail or as simple as a few extra dangerous attacks that the entire group needs to deal with. Not just the tank. The point is keeping attention primarily on the boss, arena should almost always be secondary or at best even. Sabetha and VG are the reverse.

The key point is the mechanics can come from the boss. And they can be in the form of skills and breakbar abilities. They dont need to be arena based which takes focus away from the enemy you are fighting. Obviously some arena stuff is necessary to create a bit of arena movement. Gorseval does this well, its not too extreme with arena mechanics and its fight mechanics are really good. There just arent enough of them to make it feel more mechanical than the other bosses.

But like i said that style should be expanded on to improve it. Because its a lot more engaging and fun long term. So long as its implemented right and creates enough challenge im confident you will all be saying its more fun than arena fights.

Timers are not necessary for challenging content. Especially when they check only one parameter they lead to monotonous fights and group compositions as you can see in the first wing. Timer should at least check different parameters (DPS, HPS etc) with different weightings in different encounters. This would encourage the players to learn and master all facets of a class.

To prevent extreme compositions like 8 minstrel healers or 8 berserker/viper DPS players you can add mechanics that require a certain amount of DPS, HPS etc at a certain point during the encounter. If the group can not reach the threshold it will not progress. Phase transition would be the perfect place for it. Is your group’s HPS too you are not able to enter the next phase. If your group’s DPS is too low you are not able to enter another phase. By varying the thresholds you determine which group composition can be successful at a certain encounter. Easy solution without using enrage timers.

An alternative way is to make the reward time-based. This would include more players but exclude certain group compositions from certain rewards.

I guarantee concurrent participation rates are extremely low for raids.

I guarantee the devs will not come here and say raids are a huge success.

I would love to get participation stats, but that won’t happen…

Spoj, I completely disagree. Arena mechanics add uniqueness and variability to encounters. I’m not arguing that fights should only be like VG or Sab, but that we should have a healthy mix. Sab is my favorite fight because there’s so much going on at once and so much you have to be thinking about and prepared for, it’s constantly exciting and really feels like an “epic” fight against all of the bandits!

Belenwyn, I would argue that the two points you brought up actually already exist in the current raids. In the gors fight, if your group’s dps is too low, you will not phase him before he performs the second world eater attack, wiping your entire group. This happens about 1:30 into the fight. Plus, the timers are honestly mostly irrelevant currently. Groups can 5-man VG within the enrage timer and groups can 6-man gors within the enrage timer. Most likely, if your group is hitting the enrage timer it is due to improper mechanics execution or poor rotation execution. Having non-optimal builds doesn’t make the raid impossible but there is certainly a correlation between players using optimal builds and also executing rotations and mechanics well. The rewards are already basically on a timed system as well. If you beat the boss within the timer or shortly after it ends, you get to loot an extra chest. If you don’t, you get some magnetite shards which will give you the same rewards, just more slowly. There is no reason why everybody should be able to beat the bosses. That was always the intention with the design and is certainly working as intended.

Swagger, I agree that I believe raid participation stats probably started slightly high and have since dropped tremendously. However, I think that was predictable and intended by the developers. Raids are not supposed to be “the end game” of GW2 which offers you so many end game options besides the raids. And I bet you the devs and the players who have been clearing the raids every week now would come here and say the raids were a great success. Best content GW2 has ever made IMO.

softblackcarbon.1537:

Spoj, I completely disagree. Arena mechanics add uniqueness and variability to encounters. I’m not arguing that fights should only be like VG or Sab, but that we should have a healthy mix. Sab is my favorite fight because there’s so much going on at once and so much you have to be thinking about and prepared for, it’s constantly exciting and really feels like an “epic” fight against all of the bandits!

Belenwyn, I would argue that the two points you brought up actually already exist in the current raids. In the gors fight, if your group’s dps is too low, you will not phase him before he performs the second world eater attack, wiping your entire group. This happens about 1:30 into the fight. Plus, the timers are honestly mostly irrelevant currently. Groups can 5-man VG within the enrage timer and groups can 6-man gors within the enrage timer. Most likely, if your group is hitting the enrage timer it is due to improper mechanics execution or poor rotation execution. Having non-optimal builds doesn’t make the raid impossible but there is certainly a correlation between players using optimal builds and also executing rotations and mechanics well. The rewards are already basically on a timed system as well. If you beat the boss within the timer or shortly after it ends, you get to loot an extra chest. If you don’t, you get some magnetite shards which will give you the same rewards, just more slowly. There is no reason why everybody should be able to beat the bosses. That was always the intention with the design and is certainly working as intended.

Swagger, I agree that I believe raid participation stats probably started slightly high and have since dropped tremendously. However, I think that was predictable and intended by the developers. Raids are not supposed to be “the end game” of GW2 which offers you so many end game options besides the raids. And I bet you the devs and the players who have been clearing the raids every week now would come here and say the raids were a great success. Best content GW2 has ever made IMO.

Sab is my least favorite boss tbh, because the boss itself doesn’t do anything except shooting the fire to the person at range and the occasionally flamewall.

softblackcarbon.1537:

Belenwyn, I would argue that the two points you brought up actually already exist in the current raids. In the gors fight, if your group’s dps is too low, you will not phase him before he performs the second world eater attack, wiping your entire group. This happens about 1:30 into the fight. Plus, the timers are honestly mostly irrelevant currently. Groups can 5-man VG within the enrage timer and groups can 6-man gors within the enrage timer. Most likely, if your group is hitting the enrage timer it is due to improper mechanics execution or poor rotation execution. Having non-optimal builds doesn’t make the raid impossible but there is certainly a correlation between players using optimal builds and also executing rotations and mechanics well. The rewards are already basically on a timed system as well. If you beat the boss within the timer or shortly after it ends, you get to loot an extra chest. If you don’t, you get some magnetite shards which will give you the same rewards, just more slowly. There is no reason why everybody should be able to beat the bosses. That was always the intention with the design and is certainly working as intended.

But why keep irrelevant enrage timers? You can filter out “lame group compositions” by other methods. And Arenanet is already using then to a certain extent. A reward timer would be enough. I your group is too slow it will never get the extra chest. Just put unique prestigious items in the chest unobtainable by shards. This is enough stimulus to become faster.

You are still failing to understand my point. I’m not saying scrap arena mechanics. I’m saying they shouldn’t be the primary focus. We haven’t seen a high boss focus fight with lots of arena mechanics yet. We’ve only seen arena fights with very simple bosses. Gorseval is the closest we got to boss focus because the arena mechanics are less frequent and less essential to deal with perfectly. But his problem is he is too predictable and he still doesn’t have enough mechanics/skills. So players like you don’t enjoy him as much because it feels like less is going on.

I’m perfectly fine with more arena mechanic heavy fights like Sabetha. So long as the boss actually does things to keep you focused on it. With Sabetha and VG you can literally ignore the bosses and divert all concentration to the arena. That’s silly. Its the reason so many prefer Gorseval and the reason the bosses aren’t as challenging as they could/should be. Arena mechanics are always going to be predictable. Boss mechanics can be less so.

softblackcarbon.1537:

Spoj, I completely disagree. Arena mechanics add uniqueness and variability to encounters. I’m not arguing that fights should only be like VG or Sab, but that we should have a healthy mix. Sab is my favorite fight because there’s so much going on at once and so much you have to be thinking about and prepared for, it’s constantly exciting and really feels like an “epic” fight against all of the bandits!

Belenwyn, I would argue that the two points you brought up actually already exist in the current raids. In the gors fight, if your group’s dps is too low, you will not phase him before he performs the second world eater attack, wiping your entire group. This happens about 1:30 into the fight. Plus, the timers are honestly mostly irrelevant currently. Groups can 5-man VG within the enrage timer and groups can 6-man gors within the enrage timer. Most likely, if your group is hitting the enrage timer it is due to improper mechanics execution or poor rotation execution. Having non-optimal builds doesn’t make the raid impossible but there is certainly a correlation between players using optimal builds and also executing rotations and mechanics well. The rewards are already basically on a timed system as well. If you beat the boss within the timer or shortly after it ends, you get to loot an extra chest. If you don’t, you get some magnetite shards which will give you the same rewards, just more slowly. There is no reason why everybody should be able to beat the bosses. That was always the intention with the design and is certainly working as intended.

Swagger, I agree that I believe raid participation stats probably started slightly high and have since dropped tremendously. However, I think that was predictable and intended by the developers. Raids are not supposed to be “the end game” of GW2 which offers you so many end game options besides the raids. And I bet you the devs and the players who have been clearing the raids every week now would come here and say the raids were a great success. Best content GW2 has ever made IMO.

“Dropped tremendously” does not equal “great success” sorry.

Raid is content for the ultimate prize, and “dropped tremendously” is a terrible sign.

If I were a game developer I would be embarrassed giving this raid and these bosses and these subpar professions and awful profession “roles” and not even giving a preview of the ultimate legendary treasures to my players.

Swagger.1459:

I guarantee concurrent participation rates are extremely low for raids.

I guarantee the devs will not come here and say raids are a huge success.

I would love to get participation stats, but that won’t happen…

So much this.
Everytime I see people complaining about raid being delayed or not being fun enough or new content not being made available soon, all I can think of is:

“Do these guys have any idea of how many people actually enjoy doing raids in the community?”

As time goes I have this feeling that Raids are seen as the “end-game” content but with no point in doing them.

A lot of people see them as too difficult to waste their time in, just wiping and wiping.
Let’s be honest: as today, either you have a raiding guild or a guild with some good, dedicated PvErs, or you have to find random people. Someday they’ll be good, someday great, someday bad.
And since 50% of these random people are those that “Omg, we wiped, bb” we’re at a point where if you really want to get that reward (yet to be fully disclosed) you’ll have to go through several wipes and different groups.

Is this bad? I don’t know, I’ve yet to kill Sabetha and only managed to kill Gorseval yesterday for the 1st time. I really enjoy the raids, because even if I get killed, at least I’m doing something challenging.

But how many people outside of the “top-tier” guilds/groups would agree with me?

Rob.6934:

Swagger.1459:

I guarantee concurrent participation rates are extremely low for raids.

I guarantee the devs will not come here and say raids are a huge success.

I would love to get participation stats, but that won’t happen…

So much this.
Everytime I see people complaining about raid being delayed or not being fun enough or new content not being made available soon, all I can think of is:

“Do these guys have any idea of how many people actually enjoy doing raids in the community?”

As time goes I have this feeling that Raids are seen as the “end-game” content but with no point in doing them.

A lot of people see them as too difficult to waste their time in, just wiping and wiping.
Let’s be honest: as today, either you have a raiding guild or a guild with some good, dedicated PvErs, or you have to find random people. Someday they’ll be good, someday great, someday bad.
And since 50% of these random people are those that “Omg, we wiped, bb” we’re at a point where if you really want to get that reward (yet to be fully disclosed) you’ll have to go through several wipes and different groups.

Is this bad? I don’t know, I’ve yet to kill Sabetha and only managed to kill Gorseval yesterday for the 1st time. I really enjoy the raids, because even if I get killed, at least I’m doing something challenging.

But how many people outside of the “top-tier” guilds/groups would agree with me?

Pretty sure from all the dev comments and such we have seen that this was a pretty expected response from the community (to try it a few times and then give up). I’m also pretty sure that people are easily underestimating the number of the community who kill each boss every week now. As per the post today, raid content is still very much being developed and hyped and I doubt the developers would be making it if it was as much of a failure as people are making it out to be. The people who are loving it probably just run in different circles than you do. It’s easy to overlook that point. The devs made a great thing and they should be (and probably are) proud.