Raids Discussion rant from Wooden Potatoes
Some content needs to be challenging and only challenging.
Obviously, there are many who disagree with this statement.
Providing multiple difficulty tiers in no way alters the harder experience – and I firmly believe that most hardcore players are mature enough to not feel that something someone else is doing in a completely different instance – that they acknowledge isn’t as demanding – someone diminishes their accomplishment.
It’s either out of selfishness or some silly grade school playground “you can’t play with my toys” complex.
It is because earning the same unique skin rewards would certainly diminish the feeling of accomplishment.
How is my raid skin unique and a strong statement about my skill if everyone else has it from doing “ez mode raids”?
I don’t mind everyone else having it from doing normal raids – it just means they’re also good – but the initial statement about MY skill remains true. But if they get it from “ez mode” raids then the message my unique skin tells becomes lost.
How many LI do you have?
New Main- 80 Thief – P/P- Vault Spam Pro
221 hours over 1,581 days of bank space/hot pve/lion’s arch afk and some wvw.
221 hours over 1,581 days of bank space/hot pve/lion’s arch afk and some wvw.
Almost no one on these forums is advocating removing hardcore content or saying that it shouldn’t be in the game. In fact, most go out of their way to say the opposite.
The argument is that, just because a game mode includes hardmode content doesn’t mean it can’t also offer a more casual experience – and that, in fact, by offering that experience alongside hardcore content, you will encourage more people to try it out, give devs a reason to continue making that content and give the truly casual players something fun to do as well.
I’m tired of people saying that anyone who criticizes the current raid model is immediately anti-hard content. It simply isn’t true.
To the topic at hand, the reason people are focusing on the 5 vs 10 player part of WP’s video is because that is a fairly new perspective that hasn’t been discussed – at great length – on these forums, whereas the rest of his points have (a lot).
I’ve seen countless criticisms to raids that go along the line of: “This is the casual MMO for non-hardcore people – where no hard content should exist – casual/bad players should be able to get everything and do everything because that’s what we think Anet wanted when they made GW2”.
They then back this up with “dungeons are easy” except they weren’t at the start and became easy because Anet dropped the ball in their implementation. Once people figured out how to do them they became easy.
The difference between dungeons (and fractals) and raids is this – yes dungeons were hard, but they were hard for the right reasons. They did not include mechanics specifically designed to completely discourage particular playstyles, builds and stat selections (some of which players enjoyed using since the start of the game).
Raids have some amazing mechanics, but the inclusion of enrage timers (even very forgiving enrage timers) creates artificial barriers to entry that don’t need to be there – and, more importantly, punishes people who choose to play differently than the accepted meta.
Early on, Anet focused on the right kind of mechanics to create difficulty – and those still exist in raids. But, by adding the artificial unnecessary barriers such as enrage timers, they tell those players that were enjoying those builds/playstyles for years that “you are playing the game wrong,” which I do not agree with and do not like.
And for the record, because I know I will get flack for the above, I think there is a way they could keep timers in the fights without completely limiting playstyles – just do not use them as definitive barriers to entry. Implement a gold/silver/bronze reward system that allocates reward based on kill speed.
Dungeons were hard at the beginning. The problem with that is people found they can just endlessly kite bosses around or use other “safe” techniques to clear the content without actually being good at the game.
So – naturally with Raids the devs made sure the content is much more “set” – you have certain roles to fill and things you need to do.
You can’t kite and range bosses. So yeah – that playstyle is discouraged. However there is a lot of role variety in raids – perhaps more than there was in dungeons even at the beginning.
Enrage timers are there to do two things:
1.Ensure you can’t safely range the boss for 45 minutes and get a kill without ever being in real danger.
2.Ensure that people are actually decent at the game and the mechanics – because you not only have to do the mechanics but also keep up DPS.
Imagine VG without a timer. It would be failproof – everyone would range the boss as a 10 man zerg while doing greens.
People who “choose to play differently than the accepted meta” – that’s wrong.
The meta has shifted – the “accepted meta” was formed when Raids were released. Also – it is common sense to play the right way for the specific encounter you are playing.
I get that someone might want to roleplay as a “ranger” and camp longbow – but if the boss doesn’t take ranged damage ( for example) then you have to switch – regardless of what you “want to do”. it’s called being adaptable and competent.
Early on, Anet focused on the right kind of mechanics to create difficulty – and those still exist in raids.
What exactly were these “early on” mechanics?
But, by adding the artificial unnecessary barriers such as enrage timers, they tell those players that were enjoying those builds/playstyles for years that “you are playing the game wrong,” which I do not agree with and do not like.
First of all – they are not unnecessary – I explained above why they ARE necessary.
And they are saying “you are not good enough to clear THIS content – improve and try again – adapt and become better”.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
Some content needs to be challenging and only challenging.
Obviously, there are many who disagree with this statement.
Providing multiple difficulty tiers in no way alters the harder experience – and I firmly believe that most hardcore players are mature enough to not feel that something someone else is doing in a completely different instance – that they acknowledge isn’t as demanding – someone diminishes their accomplishment.
It’s either out of selfishness or some silly grade school playground “you can’t play with my toys” complex.
It is because earning the same unique skin rewards would certainly diminish the feeling of accomplishment.
How is my raid skin unique and a strong statement about my skill if everyone else has it from doing “ez mode raids”?
I don’t mind everyone else having it from doing normal raids – it just means they’re also good – but the initial statement about MY skill remains true. But if they get it from “ez mode” raids then the message my unique skin tells becomes lost.How many LI do you have?
127. Why does it matter?
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
Some content needs to be challenging and only challenging.
Obviously, there are many who disagree with this statement.
Providing multiple difficulty tiers in no way alters the harder experience – and I firmly believe that most hardcore players are mature enough to not feel that something someone else is doing in a completely different instance – that they acknowledge isn’t as demanding – someone diminishes their accomplishment.
It’s either out of selfishness or some silly grade school playground “you can’t play with my toys” complex.
It is because earning the same unique skin rewards would certainly diminish the feeling of accomplishment.
How is my raid skin unique and a strong statement about my skill if everyone else has it from doing “ez mode raids”?
I don’t mind everyone else having it from doing normal raids – it just means they’re also good – but the initial statement about MY skill remains true. But if they get it from “ez mode” raids then the message my unique skin tells becomes lost.I actually agree 100% with this.
What many of us are advocating is tiered difficulty and tiered reward. This is about the experience of the raid, not unrealistic expectations about comparable rewards.
Anet does a good job of allocating rewards based on skill level – whether it is through the gold/silver/bronze system, enhanced difficulty achievements (my mini clockheart is still my favorite mini for this very reason) or straight levels (as with fractal and gold fractal weapon skins).
I would NEVER want them to deviate from that (let me say it again very loudly – NEVER ). You do something that is harder, you deserve a way to show that off.
This is solely about accessibility to the experience.
Tiered reward systems that don’t invalidate skin statements would only work if they implemented a system that is akin to taking a precursor from its initial skin to the final legendary form.
With that I mean this – if you get broze in raids and can only do bronze you should only have access to a very simplistic skin variant of the final skin rewards found in the raid. If you got silver -a better skin – and gold would get you the original raid-reward skin in its full glory.
That could work.
But giving people tiered rewards ( less shards, worse drops, less gold) while allowing them access to the full variety of raid reward skins would in time invalidate those items. Because people with no skill would just grind through it.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
Some content needs to be challenging and only challenging.
Obviously, there are many who disagree with this statement.
Providing multiple difficulty tiers in no way alters the harder experience – and I firmly believe that most hardcore players are mature enough to not feel that something someone else is doing in a completely different instance – that they acknowledge isn’t as demanding – someone diminishes their accomplishment.
It’s either out of selfishness or some silly grade school playground “you can’t play with my toys” complex.
It is because earning the same unique skin rewards would certainly diminish the feeling of accomplishment.
How is my raid skin unique and a strong statement about my skill if everyone else has it from doing “ez mode raids”?
I don’t mind everyone else having it from doing normal raids – it just means they’re also good – but the initial statement about MY skill remains true. But if they get it from “ez mode” raids then the message my unique skin tells becomes lost.How many LI do you have?
127. Why does it matter?
Do you feel diminished by players buying their LI?
New Main- 80 Thief – P/P- Vault Spam Pro
221 hours over 1,581 days of bank space/hot pve/lion’s arch afk and some wvw.
221 hours over 1,581 days of bank space/hot pve/lion’s arch afk and some wvw.
Some content needs to be challenging and only challenging.
Obviously, there are many who disagree with this statement.
Providing multiple difficulty tiers in no way alters the harder experience – and I firmly believe that most hardcore players are mature enough to not feel that something someone else is doing in a completely different instance – that they acknowledge isn’t as demanding – someone diminishes their accomplishment.
It’s either out of selfishness or some silly grade school playground “you can’t play with my toys” complex.
It is because earning the same unique skin rewards would certainly diminish the feeling of accomplishment.
How is my raid skin unique and a strong statement about my skill if everyone else has it from doing “ez mode raids”?
I don’t mind everyone else having it from doing normal raids – it just means they’re also good – but the initial statement about MY skill remains true. But if they get it from “ez mode” raids then the message my unique skin tells becomes lost.I actually agree 100% with this.
What many of us are advocating is tiered difficulty and tiered reward. This is about the experience of the raid, not unrealistic expectations about comparable rewards.
Anet does a good job of allocating rewards based on skill level – whether it is through the gold/silver/bronze system, enhanced difficulty achievements (my mini clockheart is still my favorite mini for this very reason) or straight levels (as with fractal and gold fractal weapon skins).
I would NEVER want them to deviate from that (let me say it again very loudly – NEVER ). You do something that is harder, you deserve a way to show that off.
This is solely about accessibility to the experience.
Just to recall the counter arguments, here are several ways tiered rewards hurt normal raids:
1. It splits the player base. Players would naturally go the best time/reward tier. You see this in fractals — if you have the ar, you go to t4.
2. It slows down development on future raids. Developers would need to now account for scalable bosses and mechanics in designing raids.
3. It limits raid mechanic creativity. Some mechanics are not easily scaled down. And making everything scalable limits design choices for future raids.
And, per my usual reply, there’s plenty of content if you’re looking for an easier experience. And there’s always been hard content.
Some content needs to be challenging and only challenging.
Obviously, there are many who disagree with this statement.
Providing multiple difficulty tiers in no way alters the harder experience – and I firmly believe that most hardcore players are mature enough to not feel that something someone else is doing in a completely different instance – that they acknowledge isn’t as demanding – someone diminishes their accomplishment.
It’s either out of selfishness or some silly grade school playground “you can’t play with my toys” complex.
It is because earning the same unique skin rewards would certainly diminish the feeling of accomplishment.
How is my raid skin unique and a strong statement about my skill if everyone else has it from doing “ez mode raids”?
I don’t mind everyone else having it from doing normal raids – it just means they’re also good – but the initial statement about MY skill remains true. But if they get it from “ez mode” raids then the message my unique skin tells becomes lost.How many LI do you have?
127. Why does it matter?
Do you feel diminished by players buying their LI?
It’s a lot faster if you make your point without asking these types of questions.
I’m sure his answer is “no.”
That doesn’t mean that an easy mode raid wouldn’t diminish current rewards, even if a very small minority currently buys raids.
I’m not sure Anet should design content over the small minority of players that compete the content through in game gold.
But to the merits. Lets take an easy example — the gorseval infusion. It’s sellable on the tp. That doesn’t diminish the value of the infusion though, because it’s hard to achieve. That means a player who has it completed the difficult content or shelled out tons of gold.
Another example are the old legendary weapons. You can buy them on the tp. But their value, and sense of accomplishment would be diminished if anet reduced the material requirements or made it easy to get a precursor.
Just to recall the counter arguments, here are several ways tiered rewards hurt normal raids:
1. It splits the player base. Players would naturally go the best time/reward tier. You see this in fractals — if you have the ar, you go to t4.
2. It slows down development on future raids. Developers would need to now account for scalable bosses and mechanics in designing raids.
3. It limits raid mechanic creativity. Some mechanics are not easily scaled down. And making everything scalable limits design choices for future raids.
And, per my usual reply, there’s plenty of content if you’re looking for an easier experience. And there’s always been hard content.
So:
1. Players will naturally go to upper tiers and make raiding base bigger and bigger. Is that bad?
2. It will give Anet more initiative to develop more raids, due to increased raiding player base.
3. It’s natural for harder encounters to have more mechanics. It never was a problem before, in any game.
4. There is a “plenty” of content, yes. 1 fractal and one piece of LS every 10 months. Oh, sorry, 1 new fractal for almost 3 years atm.
Kiijna, Xast, Satis Ironwail, Sekhaina, Shira Forgesparkle, Sfeno, Nasibi, Tegeira, Rhonwe…
25 charracters
25 charracters
Some content needs to be challenging and only challenging.
Obviously, there are many who disagree with this statement.
Providing multiple difficulty tiers in no way alters the harder experience – and I firmly believe that most hardcore players are mature enough to not feel that something someone else is doing in a completely different instance – that they acknowledge isn’t as demanding – someone diminishes their accomplishment.
It’s either out of selfishness or some silly grade school playground “you can’t play with my toys” complex.
It is because earning the same unique skin rewards would certainly diminish the feeling of accomplishment.
How is my raid skin unique and a strong statement about my skill if everyone else has it from doing “ez mode raids”?
I don’t mind everyone else having it from doing normal raids – it just means they’re also good – but the initial statement about MY skill remains true. But if they get it from “ez mode” raids then the message my unique skin tells becomes lost.How many LI do you have?
127. Why does it matter?
Do you feel diminished by players buying their LI?
LI? No.
Skins? yes – even legendary armor.
However – I don’t see it as a hugely gamebreaking issue because given the current prices I doubt very many people can afford it.
Is it a problem for me? yes.
Is it a huge problem? No.
Would an easy mode raid constitute a problem? Yes – and it would be a MUCH bigger one.
Does this answer your questions?
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
Some content needs to be challenging and only challenging.
Obviously, there are many who disagree with this statement.
Providing multiple difficulty tiers in no way alters the harder experience – and I firmly believe that most hardcore players are mature enough to not feel that something someone else is doing in a completely different instance – that they acknowledge isn’t as demanding – someone diminishes their accomplishment.
It’s either out of selfishness or some silly grade school playground “you can’t play with my toys” complex.
It is because earning the same unique skin rewards would certainly diminish the feeling of accomplishment.
How is my raid skin unique and a strong statement about my skill if everyone else has it from doing “ez mode raids”?
I don’t mind everyone else having it from doing normal raids – it just means they’re also good – but the initial statement about MY skill remains true. But if they get it from “ez mode” raids then the message my unique skin tells becomes lost.I actually agree 100% with this.
What many of us are advocating is tiered difficulty and tiered reward. This is about the experience of the raid, not unrealistic expectations about comparable rewards.
Anet does a good job of allocating rewards based on skill level – whether it is through the gold/silver/bronze system, enhanced difficulty achievements (my mini clockheart is still my favorite mini for this very reason) or straight levels (as with fractal and gold fractal weapon skins).
I would NEVER want them to deviate from that (let me say it again very loudly – NEVER ). You do something that is harder, you deserve a way to show that off.
This is solely about accessibility to the experience.
Tiered reward systems that don’t invalidate skin statements would only work if they implemented a system that is akin to taking a precursor from its initial skin to the final legendary form.
With that I mean this – if you get broze in raids and can only do bronze you should only have access to a very simplistic skin variant of the final skin rewards found in the raid. If you got silver -a better skin – and gold would get you the original raid-reward skin in its full glory.
That could work.
But giving people tiered rewards ( less shards, worse drops, less gold) while allowing them access to the full variety of raid reward skins would in time invalidate those items. Because people with no skill would just grind through it.
You and I are on the same page on this 100%
(edited by Blaeys.3102)
The problem that exists is not unique to raids. Before raids the problem existed with dungeons and to an extent fractals. It’s a toxic competitive environment where the majority of the player base doesn’t want one. Fractals have become a once a day endeavor that are to some extent trivial enough to not bother the majority of people requiring perfection, but raids are intrinsically not that type of gameplay element.
While I was thinking about how to eliminate the toxicity from raiding, I came up with one idea that would probably kitten off a lot of people. That is, make all encounters pass / fail.
By that I mean, remove any extra reward gained from completing an encounter optimally. By any reward I mean even the time you save by having great DPS and awesome skill.
For Example : Making VG an 8 minute fight, period. Putting in artificial barriers that prevent a group from beating it in less than 8 minutes. What would this do? It would mean that, any group capable of beating the boss would be just as good as the best possible group capable of beating the boss. After all, there would be no difference in the outcome.
This isn’t really my idea as a player, it’s more of the idea I came up with to solve the problem of a min/max mentality while at the same time not compromising the challenging aspect of the encounter.
The problem that exists is not unique to raids. Before raids the problem existed with dungeons and to an extent fractals. It’s a toxic competitive environment where the majority of the player base doesn’t want one. Fractals have become a once a day endeavor that are to some extent trivial enough to not bother the majority of people requiring perfection, but raids are intrinsically not that type of gameplay element.
While I was thinking about how to eliminate the toxicity from raiding, I came up with one idea that would probably kitten off a lot of people. That is, make all encounters pass / fail.
By that I mean, remove any extra reward gained from completing an encounter optimally. By any reward I mean even the time you save by having great DPS and awesome skill.
For Example : Making VG an 8 minute fight, period. Putting in artificial barriers that prevent a group from beating it in less than 8 minutes. What would this do? It would mean that, any group capable of beating the boss would be just as good as the best possible group capable of beating the boss. After all, there would be no difference in the outcome.
This isn’t really my idea as a player, it’s more of the idea I came up with to solve the problem of a min/max mentality while at the same time not compromising the challenging aspect of the encounter.
This is literally the worst idea possible.
Forcing the fights to all be a certain length removes any essence of player skill, build diversity and creativity. The short and narrow of your solution is well if i can’t do it in 4 1/2 minutes, no one should be and everyone should have to suffer. Talk about taking steps backwards.
It’s wrong to assume there’s extra rewards for completing this quickly, the only extra reward is piece of mind and some extra time in your day to do whatever you want.
It’s also in the best interest of the game to give PvE players a place for them to test themselves as a group, an facet of the game where they can strive for improvement….something your system completely ignores. Doing that is in part what lead to this notion that GW2 is somehow meant for the casual everyman at all parts of the game. This is patently false. The game has a plethora of diverse content and raids do not need to see any change to dumb down, artificially lengthen or otherwise change their essence.
The problem that exists is not unique to raids. Before raids the problem existed with dungeons and to an extent fractals. It’s a toxic competitive environment where the majority of the player base doesn’t want one. Fractals have become a once a day endeavor that are to some extent trivial enough to not bother the majority of people requiring perfection, but raids are intrinsically not that type of gameplay element.
While I was thinking about how to eliminate the toxicity from raiding, I came up with one idea that would probably kitten off a lot of people. That is, make all encounters pass / fail.
By that I mean, remove any extra reward gained from completing an encounter optimally. By any reward I mean even the time you save by having great DPS and awesome skill.
For Example : Making VG an 8 minute fight, period. Putting in artificial barriers that prevent a group from beating it in less than 8 minutes. What would this do? It would mean that, any group capable of beating the boss would be just as good as the best possible group capable of beating the boss. After all, there would be no difference in the outcome.
This isn’t really my idea as a player, it’s more of the idea I came up with to solve the problem of a min/max mentality while at the same time not compromising the challenging aspect of the encounter.
How does this improve anything? People will still min-max. Even if you’re min-maxing effort vs kill and not something else.
You can’t stop people from min-maxing.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
The problem that exists is not unique to raids. Before raids the problem existed with dungeons and to an extent fractals. It’s a toxic competitive environment where the majority of the player base doesn’t want one. Fractals have become a once a day endeavor that are to some extent trivial enough to not bother the majority of people requiring perfection, but raids are intrinsically not that type of gameplay element.
While I was thinking about how to eliminate the toxicity from raiding, I came up with one idea that would probably kitten off a lot of people. That is, make all encounters pass / fail.
By that I mean, remove any extra reward gained from completing an encounter optimally. By any reward I mean even the time you save by having great DPS and awesome skill.
For Example : Making VG an 8 minute fight, period. Putting in artificial barriers that prevent a group from beating it in less than 8 minutes. What would this do? It would mean that, any group capable of beating the boss would be just as good as the best possible group capable of beating the boss. After all, there would be no difference in the outcome.
This isn’t really my idea as a player, it’s more of the idea I came up with to solve the problem of a min/max mentality while at the same time not compromising the challenging aspect of the encounter.
This is literally the worst idea possible.
Forcing the fights to all be a certain length removes any essence of player skill, build diversity and creativity. The short and narrow of your solution is well if i can’t do it in 4 1/2 minutes, no one should be and everyone should have to suffer. Talk about taking steps backwards.
It’s wrong to assume there’s extra rewards for completing this quickly, the only extra reward is piece of mind and some extra time in your day to do whatever you want.
It’s also in the best interest of the game to give PvE players a place for them to test themselves as a group, an facet of the game where they can strive for improvement….something your system completely ignores. Doing that is in part what lead to this notion that GW2 is somehow meant for the casual everyman at all parts of the game. This is patently false. The game has a plethora of diverse content and raids do not need to see any change to dumb down, artificially lengthen or otherwise change their essence.
I told you it would make you mad.
However it is a solution for PuG toxicity. Because what the hostile environment around PuGs stems from is the fact that someone constantly keeps raising the bar, and once that bar is raised everyone expects everyone else to be able to meet that standard, instantly. It would be like if a school structured its entire curriculum around its most gifted student, and when that student proved that he could overcome a challenge, then the school would present an even more challenging curriculum regardless of how the other students are fairing. As is the case with GW2, this would cause a lot of students to drop out.
The idea I presented basically says that the bar is cemented. No one can raise it, all you need is for people to learn how to clear it. You can set that bar higher every new encounter, but it must not be alterable by the player base, lest you create a highly competitive environment that alienates a lot of people.
The problem that exists is not unique to raids. Before raids the problem existed with dungeons and to an extent fractals. It’s a toxic competitive environment where the majority of the player base doesn’t want one. Fractals have become a once a day endeavor that are to some extent trivial enough to not bother the majority of people requiring perfection, but raids are intrinsically not that type of gameplay element.
While I was thinking about how to eliminate the toxicity from raiding, I came up with one idea that would probably kitten off a lot of people. That is, make all encounters pass / fail.
By that I mean, remove any extra reward gained from completing an encounter optimally. By any reward I mean even the time you save by having great DPS and awesome skill.
For Example : Making VG an 8 minute fight, period. Putting in artificial barriers that prevent a group from beating it in less than 8 minutes. What would this do? It would mean that, any group capable of beating the boss would be just as good as the best possible group capable of beating the boss. After all, there would be no difference in the outcome.
This isn’t really my idea as a player, it’s more of the idea I came up with to solve the problem of a min/max mentality while at the same time not compromising the challenging aspect of the encounter.
How does this improve anything? People will still min-max. Even if you’re min-maxing effort vs kill and not something else.
You can’t stop people from min-maxing.
If you take the incentive to min-max away, you can. The inherent incentive is that they save time, or get to show off. If you take the ability to do that away, then people will have no reason to min-max.
I am not suggesting that they actually implement this. I am just saying, that the root of the (LFM Vegeta, 9001 LI exp Super Saiyan) requirements, is that there is an incentive to take a class / person who can do the encounter optimally, versus taking someone who can just do it adequately.
The problem that exists is not unique to raids. Before raids the problem existed with dungeons and to an extent fractals. It’s a toxic competitive environment where the majority of the player base doesn’t want one. Fractals have become a once a day endeavor that are to some extent trivial enough to not bother the majority of people requiring perfection, but raids are intrinsically not that type of gameplay element.
While I was thinking about how to eliminate the toxicity from raiding, I came up with one idea that would probably kitten off a lot of people. That is, make all encounters pass / fail.
By that I mean, remove any extra reward gained from completing an encounter optimally. By any reward I mean even the time you save by having great DPS and awesome skill.
For Example : Making VG an 8 minute fight, period. Putting in artificial barriers that prevent a group from beating it in less than 8 minutes. What would this do? It would mean that, any group capable of beating the boss would be just as good as the best possible group capable of beating the boss. After all, there would be no difference in the outcome.
This isn’t really my idea as a player, it’s more of the idea I came up with to solve the problem of a min/max mentality while at the same time not compromising the challenging aspect of the encounter.
This is literally the worst idea possible.
Forcing the fights to all be a certain length removes any essence of player skill, build diversity and creativity. The short and narrow of your solution is well if i can’t do it in 4 1/2 minutes, no one should be and everyone should have to suffer. Talk about taking steps backwards.
It’s wrong to assume there’s extra rewards for completing this quickly, the only extra reward is piece of mind and some extra time in your day to do whatever you want.
It’s also in the best interest of the game to give PvE players a place for them to test themselves as a group, an facet of the game where they can strive for improvement….something your system completely ignores. Doing that is in part what lead to this notion that GW2 is somehow meant for the casual everyman at all parts of the game. This is patently false. The game has a plethora of diverse content and raids do not need to see any change to dumb down, artificially lengthen or otherwise change their essence.
I told you it would make you mad.
However it is a solution for PuG toxicity. Because what the hostile environment around PuGs stems from is the fact that someone constantly keeps raising the bar, and once that bar is raised everyone expects everyone else to be able to meet that standard, instantly. It would be like if a school structured its entire curriculum around its most gifted student, and when that student proved that he could overcome a challenge, then the school would present an even more challenging curriculum regardless of how the other students are fairing. As is the case with GW2, this would cause a lot of students to drop out.
The idea I presented basically says that the bar is cemented. No one can raise it, all you need is for people to learn how to clear it. You can set that bar higher every new encounter, but it must not be alterable by the player base, lest you create a highly competitive environment that alienates a lot of people.
No it doesn’t make me mad. A few other sorts of words come to mind.
The idea doesn’t solve any problem and only serves as a very narrow minded viewpoint.
The problem that exists is not unique to raids. Before raids the problem existed with dungeons and to an extent fractals. It’s a toxic competitive environment where the majority of the player base doesn’t want one. Fractals have become a once a day endeavor that are to some extent trivial enough to not bother the majority of people requiring perfection, but raids are intrinsically not that type of gameplay element.
While I was thinking about how to eliminate the toxicity from raiding, I came up with one idea that would probably kitten off a lot of people. That is, make all encounters pass / fail.
By that I mean, remove any extra reward gained from completing an encounter optimally. By any reward I mean even the time you save by having great DPS and awesome skill.
For Example : Making VG an 8 minute fight, period. Putting in artificial barriers that prevent a group from beating it in less than 8 minutes. What would this do? It would mean that, any group capable of beating the boss would be just as good as the best possible group capable of beating the boss. After all, there would be no difference in the outcome.
This isn’t really my idea as a player, it’s more of the idea I came up with to solve the problem of a min/max mentality while at the same time not compromising the challenging aspect of the encounter.
This is literally the worst idea possible.
Forcing the fights to all be a certain length removes any essence of player skill, build diversity and creativity. The short and narrow of your solution is well if i can’t do it in 4 1/2 minutes, no one should be and everyone should have to suffer. Talk about taking steps backwards.
It’s wrong to assume there’s extra rewards for completing this quickly, the only extra reward is piece of mind and some extra time in your day to do whatever you want.
It’s also in the best interest of the game to give PvE players a place for them to test themselves as a group, an facet of the game where they can strive for improvement….something your system completely ignores. Doing that is in part what lead to this notion that GW2 is somehow meant for the casual everyman at all parts of the game. This is patently false. The game has a plethora of diverse content and raids do not need to see any change to dumb down, artificially lengthen or otherwise change their essence.
I told you it would make you mad.
However it is a solution for PuG toxicity. Because what the hostile environment around PuGs stems from is the fact that someone constantly keeps raising the bar, and once that bar is raised everyone expects everyone else to be able to meet that standard, instantly. It would be like if a school structured its entire curriculum around its most gifted student, and when that student proved that he could overcome a challenge, then the school would present an even more challenging curriculum regardless of how the other students are fairing. As is the case with GW2, this would cause a lot of students to drop out.
The idea I presented basically says that the bar is cemented. No one can raise it, all you need is for people to learn how to clear it. You can set that bar higher every new encounter, but it must not be alterable by the player base, lest you create a highly competitive environment that alienates a lot of people.
No it doesn’t make me mad. A few other sorts of words come to mind.
The idea doesn’t solve any problem and only serves as a very narrow minded viewpoint.
I won’t argue that it wouldn’t create other problems.
It’s pretty much exchanging the frying pan for the fire. A lot of people find a lot of fun when it comes to trying out different comps and finding the optimal way to beat a boss. I myself do always strive to make myself better. However, you can’t turn a blind eye to murder just because it was your best friend who committed it. The thing that is driving the core raid community is also what is contributing to the alienation to the non-raiding GW2 community.
The problem that exists is not unique to raids. Before raids the problem existed with dungeons and to an extent fractals. It’s a toxic competitive environment where the majority of the player base doesn’t want one. Fractals have become a once a day endeavor that are to some extent trivial enough to not bother the majority of people requiring perfection, but raids are intrinsically not that type of gameplay element.
While I was thinking about how to eliminate the toxicity from raiding, I came up with one idea that would probably kitten off a lot of people. That is, make all encounters pass / fail.
By that I mean, remove any extra reward gained from completing an encounter optimally. By any reward I mean even the time you save by having great DPS and awesome skill.
For Example : Making VG an 8 minute fight, period. Putting in artificial barriers that prevent a group from beating it in less than 8 minutes. What would this do? It would mean that, any group capable of beating the boss would be just as good as the best possible group capable of beating the boss. After all, there would be no difference in the outcome.
This isn’t really my idea as a player, it’s more of the idea I came up with to solve the problem of a min/max mentality while at the same time not compromising the challenging aspect of the encounter.
This is literally the worst idea possible.
Forcing the fights to all be a certain length removes any essence of player skill, build diversity and creativity. The short and narrow of your solution is well if i can’t do it in 4 1/2 minutes, no one should be and everyone should have to suffer. Talk about taking steps backwards.
It’s wrong to assume there’s extra rewards for completing this quickly, the only extra reward is piece of mind and some extra time in your day to do whatever you want.
It’s also in the best interest of the game to give PvE players a place for them to test themselves as a group, an facet of the game where they can strive for improvement….something your system completely ignores. Doing that is in part what lead to this notion that GW2 is somehow meant for the casual everyman at all parts of the game. This is patently false. The game has a plethora of diverse content and raids do not need to see any change to dumb down, artificially lengthen or otherwise change their essence.
I told you it would make you mad.
However it is a solution for PuG toxicity. Because what the hostile environment around PuGs stems from is the fact that someone constantly keeps raising the bar, and once that bar is raised everyone expects everyone else to be able to meet that standard, instantly. It would be like if a school structured its entire curriculum around its most gifted student, and when that student proved that he could overcome a challenge, then the school would present an even more challenging curriculum regardless of how the other students are fairing. As is the case with GW2, this would cause a lot of students to drop out.
The idea I presented basically says that the bar is cemented. No one can raise it, all you need is for people to learn how to clear it. You can set that bar higher every new encounter, but it must not be alterable by the player base, lest you create a highly competitive environment that alienates a lot of people.
No it doesn’t make me mad. A few other sorts of words come to mind.
The idea doesn’t solve any problem and only serves as a very narrow minded viewpoint.
I won’t argue that it wouldn’t create other problems.
It’s pretty much exchanging the frying pan for the fire. A lot of people find a lot of fun when it comes to trying out different comps and finding the optimal way to beat a boss. I myself do always strive to make myself better. However, you can’t turn a blind eye to murder just because it was your best friend who committed it. The thing that is driving the core raid community is also what is contributing to the alienation to the non-raiding GW2 community.
Love the extreme jump and comparing a game to a crime. Really helps selling the point.
But since you brought up the topic of murder, the only thing your idea does is murder creativity. The current system at best is like ignoring a drunkard in public. Doesn’t harm nor hurt you in any shape or form. Could you help them out, get them someplace better sure. But it’s not your civil duty to be their babysitter.
The problem that exists is not unique to raids. Before raids the problem existed with dungeons and to an extent fractals. It’s a toxic competitive environment where the majority of the player base doesn’t want one. Fractals have become a once a day endeavor that are to some extent trivial enough to not bother the majority of people requiring perfection, but raids are intrinsically not that type of gameplay element.
While I was thinking about how to eliminate the toxicity from raiding, I came up with one idea that would probably kitten off a lot of people. That is, make all encounters pass / fail.
By that I mean, remove any extra reward gained from completing an encounter optimally. By any reward I mean even the time you save by having great DPS and awesome skill.
For Example : Making VG an 8 minute fight, period. Putting in artificial barriers that prevent a group from beating it in less than 8 minutes. What would this do? It would mean that, any group capable of beating the boss would be just as good as the best possible group capable of beating the boss. After all, there would be no difference in the outcome.
This isn’t really my idea as a player, it’s more of the idea I came up with to solve the problem of a min/max mentality while at the same time not compromising the challenging aspect of the encounter.
This is literally the worst idea possible.
Forcing the fights to all be a certain length removes any essence of player skill, build diversity and creativity. The short and narrow of your solution is well if i can’t do it in 4 1/2 minutes, no one should be and everyone should have to suffer. Talk about taking steps backwards.
It’s wrong to assume there’s extra rewards for completing this quickly, the only extra reward is piece of mind and some extra time in your day to do whatever you want.
It’s also in the best interest of the game to give PvE players a place for them to test themselves as a group, an facet of the game where they can strive for improvement….something your system completely ignores. Doing that is in part what lead to this notion that GW2 is somehow meant for the casual everyman at all parts of the game. This is patently false. The game has a plethora of diverse content and raids do not need to see any change to dumb down, artificially lengthen or otherwise change their essence.
I told you it would make you mad.
However it is a solution for PuG toxicity. Because what the hostile environment around PuGs stems from is the fact that someone constantly keeps raising the bar, and once that bar is raised everyone expects everyone else to be able to meet that standard, instantly. It would be like if a school structured its entire curriculum around its most gifted student, and when that student proved that he could overcome a challenge, then the school would present an even more challenging curriculum regardless of how the other students are fairing. As is the case with GW2, this would cause a lot of students to drop out.
The idea I presented basically says that the bar is cemented. No one can raise it, all you need is for people to learn how to clear it. You can set that bar higher every new encounter, but it must not be alterable by the player base, lest you create a highly competitive environment that alienates a lot of people.
No it doesn’t make me mad. A few other sorts of words come to mind.
The idea doesn’t solve any problem and only serves as a very narrow minded viewpoint.
I won’t argue that it wouldn’t create other problems.
It’s pretty much exchanging the frying pan for the fire. A lot of people find a lot of fun when it comes to trying out different comps and finding the optimal way to beat a boss. I myself do always strive to make myself better. However, you can’t turn a blind eye to murder just because it was your best friend who committed it. The thing that is driving the core raid community is also what is contributing to the alienation to the non-raiding GW2 community.
Love the extreme jump and comparing a game to a crime. Really helps selling the point.
But since you brought up the topic of murder, the only thing your idea does is murder creativity. The current system at best is like ignoring a drunkard in public. Doesn’t harm nor hurt you in any shape or form. Could you help them out, get them someplace better sure. But it’s not your civil duty to be their babysitter.
You are right. My point is that we are all forced to be drunk in public. Destructive, but the drunkard won’t be complaining about the sober people looking down on him.
The problem that exists is not unique to raids. Before raids the problem existed with dungeons and to an extent fractals. It’s a toxic competitive environment where the majority of the player base doesn’t want one. Fractals have become a once a day endeavor that are to some extent trivial enough to not bother the majority of people requiring perfection, but raids are intrinsically not that type of gameplay element.
While I was thinking about how to eliminate the toxicity from raiding, I came up with one idea that would probably kitten off a lot of people. That is, make all encounters pass / fail.
By that I mean, remove any extra reward gained from completing an encounter optimally. By any reward I mean even the time you save by having great DPS and awesome skill.
For Example : Making VG an 8 minute fight, period. Putting in artificial barriers that prevent a group from beating it in less than 8 minutes. What would this do? It would mean that, any group capable of beating the boss would be just as good as the best possible group capable of beating the boss. After all, there would be no difference in the outcome.
This isn’t really my idea as a player, it’s more of the idea I came up with to solve the problem of a min/max mentality while at the same time not compromising the challenging aspect of the encounter.
This is literally the worst idea possible.
Forcing the fights to all be a certain length removes any essence of player skill, build diversity and creativity. The short and narrow of your solution is well if i can’t do it in 4 1/2 minutes, no one should be and everyone should have to suffer. Talk about taking steps backwards.
It’s wrong to assume there’s extra rewards for completing this quickly, the only extra reward is piece of mind and some extra time in your day to do whatever you want.
It’s also in the best interest of the game to give PvE players a place for them to test themselves as a group, an facet of the game where they can strive for improvement….something your system completely ignores. Doing that is in part what lead to this notion that GW2 is somehow meant for the casual everyman at all parts of the game. This is patently false. The game has a plethora of diverse content and raids do not need to see any change to dumb down, artificially lengthen or otherwise change their essence.
I told you it would make you mad.
However it is a solution for PuG toxicity. Because what the hostile environment around PuGs stems from is the fact that someone constantly keeps raising the bar, and once that bar is raised everyone expects everyone else to be able to meet that standard, instantly. It would be like if a school structured its entire curriculum around its most gifted student, and when that student proved that he could overcome a challenge, then the school would present an even more challenging curriculum regardless of how the other students are fairing. As is the case with GW2, this would cause a lot of students to drop out.
The idea I presented basically says that the bar is cemented. No one can raise it, all you need is for people to learn how to clear it. You can set that bar higher every new encounter, but it must not be alterable by the player base, lest you create a highly competitive environment that alienates a lot of people.
No it doesn’t make me mad. A few other sorts of words come to mind.
The idea doesn’t solve any problem and only serves as a very narrow minded viewpoint.
I won’t argue that it wouldn’t create other problems.
It’s pretty much exchanging the frying pan for the fire. A lot of people find a lot of fun when it comes to trying out different comps and finding the optimal way to beat a boss. I myself do always strive to make myself better. However, you can’t turn a blind eye to murder just because it was your best friend who committed it. The thing that is driving the core raid community is also what is contributing to the alienation to the non-raiding GW2 community.
Love the extreme jump and comparing a game to a crime. Really helps selling the point.
But since you brought up the topic of murder, the only thing your idea does is murder creativity. The current system at best is like ignoring a drunkard in public. Doesn’t harm nor hurt you in any shape or form. Could you help them out, get them someplace better sure. But it’s not your civil duty to be their babysitter.
You are right. My point is that we are all forced to be drunk in public. Destructive, but the drunkard won’t be complaining about the sober people looking down on him.
Or they could stop drinking….or is in this scenario form their own social group to raid with where in no one is looking down on them.
The non-raiding community chooses to alienate themselves. Hoever part of the reason why is due to the design of the grouping mechanics and anet’s won PR rather than the actual content.
While I don’t agree that bumping the party up to 10 people was the best move, I do agree that raids are not in and of themselves exculsionary any more than pvp is exlusionary, or wvw is exclusionary.
The problem here is, honestly, that i can easily find 30 people all stating “I can’t find a group to raid!” despite that among them they could make up three separate raid groups of like minded individuals.
Raid difficulty isn’t the problem. Raid rewards aren’t the problem. Finding a Raid group is the #1 problem most people have.
Part of it is that, yes, it’s twice as many people.
But a LARGE part of it is that many MANY individuals expect to simply slot in to an existing party at a moment’s notice and aren’t at all willing to take a less experienced group from all the people just like themselves and get in to the content in stead of spending an hour standing around attempting to find only the most optimal, most experienced group.
We don’t need easy mode raids. We didn’t need easy mode challenge instances in GW1. We might, however, benefit from some sort of population scaling, heroes, or other mechanism to retain the raid’s challenge while lowering the warm body requirement.
GW1 had massive problems with NPC companions from nightfall forward. Specifically that you could bring three times as many NPCs as players, meaning that there wasn’t enough emphasis put on players in comparison to NPCs.
However, a system in which you could access NPCs or mathematically altered encounters to make the ten man limit more of a ‘scales from 5-10 players’ would feel really good.
You could encourage 10-manning it by increasing the volume of reward, but not necessarily the quality, and retain the challenge even in 5-man or 5-man-with-5-NPC scales by giving the same drops, only half as many.
Raids are EXCELLENT content, at a good challenge point, with rewards that feel earned. It is unfortunate that just the term ‘raid’ carries a stigma that instantly puts people off of even making the attempt. Had Anet in stead chosen to call these “Elite Instances” I’m convinced that the public perception, and people’s difficulty finding a “normal” player group versus a hardcore raid guild would have been vastly improved.
Guild Master – The Papacy [POPE] (Gate of Madness)/Road Scholar for the Durmand Priory
Writer/Director – Quaggan Quest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky2TGPmMPeQ
Writer/Director – Quaggan Quest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky2TGPmMPeQ
To those saying making these changes will hinder future raid development. Basically you’re saying don’t change the difficulty that way we will have more difficult content that even less people will do. In others words if Anet spent time making changes to help ALL the players then that would take away content from the elite players.
So why would players who are unable to raid now be concerned about future development of raids?
To those saying making these changes will hinder future raid development. Basically you’re saying don’t change the difficulty that way we will have more difficult content that even less people will do. In others words if Anet spent time making changes to help ALL the players then that would take away content from the elite players.
So why would players who are unable to raid now be concerned about future development of raids?
Then why Anet should be concerned with making more raids in future if their population will remain small fracture of whole? They are not a charity company, and GW2 was never advertised as raiding game.
Your logic works in both ways.
Kiijna, Xast, Satis Ironwail, Sekhaina, Shira Forgesparkle, Sfeno, Nasibi, Tegeira, Rhonwe…
25 charracters
25 charracters
To those saying making these changes will hinder future raid development. Basically you’re saying don’t change the difficulty that way we will have more difficult content that even less people will do. In others words if Anet spent time making changes to help ALL the players then that would take away content from the elite players.
So why would players who are unable to raid now be concerned about future development of raids?
Then why Anet should be concerned with making more raids in future if their population will remain small fracture of whole? They are not a charity company, and GW2 was never advertised as raiding game.
Your logic works in both ways.
I stopped playing WoW in 2010, but the GW2 raiding debacle lead me to go read up about WoW raiding. Apparently what lead to the LFR tool was the fact that 90% of the player base didn’t have easy access to raiding and it was an expensive endeavor.
The inherent problem with raiding in anything seems to be the organization factor more than anything else. It requires that someone gets 10 people together and keeps them coordinated, which is not an easy job.
Fractals don’t require the organization, and open world content (world bosses, DS, etc) really only require that the zerg follows your lead, they don’t have to learn specific roles.
So really it seems the choices are :
1. Keep things the way they are, small portion of the player base is happy with a larger portion that are afraid of raids or angry about them.
2. Give up on raids all together.
3. Find a way to trivialize the organization factor.
WoW chose #3.
To those saying making these changes will hinder future raid development. Basically you’re saying don’t change the difficulty that way we will have more difficult content that even less people will do. In others words if Anet spent time making changes to help ALL the players then that would take away content from the elite players.
So why would players who are unable to raid now be concerned about future development of raids?
Then why Anet should be concerned with making more raids in future if their population will remain small fracture of whole? They are not a charity company, and GW2 was never advertised as raiding game.
Your logic works in both ways.I stopped playing WoW in 2010, but the GW2 raiding debacle lead me to go read up about WoW raiding. Apparently what lead to the LFR tool was the fact that 90% of the player base didn’t have easy access to raiding and it was an expensive endeavor.
The inherent problem with raiding in anything seems to be the organization factor more than anything else. It requires that someone gets 10 people together and keeps them coordinated, which is not an easy job.
Fractals don’t require the organization, and open world content (world bosses, DS, etc) really only require that the zerg follows your lead, they don’t have to learn specific roles.
So really it seems the choices are :
1. Keep things the way they are, small portion of the player base is happy with a larger portion that are afraid of raids or angry about them.
2. Give up on raids all together.
3. Find a way to trivialize the organization factor.
WoW chose #3.
I’d like to comment on your 1st choice that I don’t think the majority who don’t raid are angry/afraid about raids being in the game. I would argue that most are fine or just don’t care about them at all. This demographic consist of PvP, WvW and PvE players alike. The forums do bring in the most polarizing comments after all so it seems like there are only pro raid and anti raid people. In the end the people who like the game are in the game enjoying the aspects they like.
The problem that exists is not unique to raids. Before raids the problem existed with dungeons and to an extent fractals. It’s a toxic competitive environment where the majority of the player base doesn’t want one. Fractals have become a once a day endeavor that are to some extent trivial enough to not bother the majority of people requiring perfection, but raids are intrinsically not that type of gameplay element.
While I was thinking about how to eliminate the toxicity from raiding, I came up with one idea that would probably kitten off a lot of people. That is, make all encounters pass / fail.
By that I mean, remove any extra reward gained from completing an encounter optimally. By any reward I mean even the time you save by having great DPS and awesome skill.
For Example : Making VG an 8 minute fight, period. Putting in artificial barriers that prevent a group from beating it in less than 8 minutes. What would this do? It would mean that, any group capable of beating the boss would be just as good as the best possible group capable of beating the boss. After all, there would be no difference in the outcome.
This isn’t really my idea as a player, it’s more of the idea I came up with to solve the problem of a min/max mentality while at the same time not compromising the challenging aspect of the encounter.
How does this improve anything? People will still min-max. Even if you’re min-maxing effort vs kill and not something else.
You can’t stop people from min-maxing.
If you take the incentive to min-max away, you can. The inherent incentive is that they save time, or get to show off. If you take the ability to do that away, then people will have no reason to min-max.
I am not suggesting that they actually implement this. I am just saying, that the root of the (LFM Vegeta, 9001 LI exp Super Saiyan) requirements, is that there is an incentive to take a class / person who can do the encounter optimally, versus taking someone who can just do it adequately.
Except it will become min-maxing in an clear vs effort kind of way.
You’ll be minimising effort put into a clear and still min-maxing. Because if you can’t do it FASTER you might as well do it EASIER and safer.
It will still create class discrepancy, roles and people demanding a certain meta. It will simply be a DIFFERENT meta.
Adequate will never be “good enough” for a certain group of people – with your new system the “optimal” will simply change to mean something else.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
To those saying making these changes will hinder future raid development. Basically you’re saying don’t change the difficulty that way we will have more difficult content that even less people will do. In others words if Anet spent time making changes to help ALL the players then that would take away content from the elite players.
So why would players who are unable to raid now be concerned about future development of raids?
Then why Anet should be concerned with making more raids in future if their population will remain small fracture of whole? They are not a charity company, and GW2 was never advertised as raiding game.
Your logic works in both ways.I stopped playing WoW in 2010, but the GW2 raiding debacle lead me to go read up about WoW raiding. Apparently what lead to the LFR tool was the fact that 90% of the player base didn’t have easy access to raiding and it was an expensive endeavor.
The inherent problem with raiding in anything seems to be the organization factor more than anything else. It requires that someone gets 10 people together and keeps them coordinated, which is not an easy job.
Fractals don’t require the organization, and open world content (world bosses, DS, etc) really only require that the zerg follows your lead, they don’t have to learn specific roles.
So really it seems the choices are :
1. Keep things the way they are, small portion of the player base is happy with a larger portion that are afraid of raids or angry about them.
2. Give up on raids all together.
3. Find a way to trivialize the organization factor.
WoW chose #3.
What you have to understand here is that you are on the forums. Where only a FEW of the people actually playing GW2 go.
Out of those few some are for raids and some are against raids. But that does not immediately imply that the SILENT majority playing the game has issues with raids or that they even care about them.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
1. Keep things the way they are, small portion of the player base is happy with a larger portion that are afraid of raids or angry about them.
It’s pure conjecture to assert that there is a larger portion of the playerbase who disapproves of raids than those who approve. The vast majority is indifferent.
This forum presence which ‘is afraid of raids or angry about them’ is like half a dozen regular suspects on the forum and the occasional passersby.
Nalhadia – Kaineng
1. Keep things the way they are, small portion of the player base is happy with a larger portion that are afraid of raids or angry about them.
It’s pure conjecture to assert that there is a larger portion of the playerbase who disapproves of raids than those who approve. The vast majority is indifferent.
This forum presence which ‘is afraid of raids or angry about them’ is like half a dozen regular suspects on the forum and the occasional passersby.
It’s not really just the forums. I have joined a bunch of guilds, and a lot of them just avoid raiding altogether, even if they declare themselves as PvE guilds. Even if the guild leader tries to organize a raid, most people just kind of avoid it and there are usually only 4 to 5 people willing to try. There seems to be sort of an intimidating aura around raids.
there are usually only 4 to 5 people willing to try.
It takes a lot of effort to have exact 10 people together at a specific time and ready to go. Having 4-5 people is a very good start and you will see it doesn’t take very much time to wait until your group is filled with the rest 5-6 peeps.
Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.
Raids are succeeding where Dungeons failed hard
Considering that dungeons likely were far more popular than raids will ever be, that’s a mighty claim.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Raids are succeeding where Dungeons failed hard
Considering that dungeons likely were far more popular than raids will ever be, that’s a mighty claim.
Key word is were, which results in why they failed.
Fractals and Raids will be the focus, in fact I would say that Fractals are even better than Dungeons ever were. Raids are just starting, but Fractals are consistently being run.
Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”
Apparently a lot of people raid in WoW now with the lfg thing whatever…
Yes, and it has been one of the most destructive additions to that games creative and fun developement in recent years.
Suure, which is why the expact that introduced it ended up to be the most succesful one.
Raids are succeeding where Dungeons failed hard
Considering that dungeons likely were far more popular than raids will ever be, that’s a mighty claim.
Key word is were, which results in why they failed.
Any content that’s not being updated will lose popularity. Let’s see how well raids would do in 3 years if anet were to abandon them now.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Any content that’s not being updated will lose popularity. Let’s see how well raids would do in 3 years if anet were to abandon them now.
They probably abandoned dungeons for a simple reason: they weren’t built with updates in mind. All they did was remove a path and add another one. Dungeon paths also overlapped with each other quite a bit, so adding new paths to existing dungeons would be problematic. Adding entire new dungeons would need to be situated in a suitable location, with a story to go with it (it won’t tie in with the Dungeon story since that follows Destiny’s Edge). The stories of the dungeon (both story mode and explorable) are too intertwined for it to be updated (any new path will need to be integrated into the existing dungeon’s story).
Fractals made more sense for expandable 5-man content. Each Fractal was an entirely self-contained story, and was completely isolated from every other Fractal. Some fractals are related in story, but do not overlap, unlike dungeons. The difficulty scaling can also be taken advantage of (easier to deal with that hard-mode dungeons). There’s also more of a sense of progression to Fractals through personal reward levels.
With raids, they’re taking a different approach with story. Each raid has more of a skeletal story (or in other words, open-ended story), meaning that future additions (wings) can be more easily integrated. Forsaken Thicket is situated in a physical location, and explores the lore in that area (heavily Bloodstone related, as that area was the location of a Bloodstone in GW1). Future raids could follow a similar trend and expand on lore from GW1 for a particular area, and would be one way to expand unexplored regions of the map (along with the addition of new zones).
Apparently a lot of people raid in WoW now with the lfg thing whatever…
Yes, and it has been one of the most destructive additions to that games creative and fun developement in recent years.
Suure, which is why the expact that introduced it ended up to be the most succesful one.
And not even 2 years down the line the quality of the content deteriorated so much that even passionate players were complaining. Everyone who wasn’t complaining then certainly was by the time pandaland hit.
WotLK was the most successful xpac because it fell right in the sweet spot between BC bit to tough and grindy but still interesting/challenging and Cataclysm super-duper easy mode where everything is just there to kitten out purple items so people can hoard pixels.
If you want to look at what effect the LFR tool had you need to look at following expansions and content, not the content where it barely was introduced. Going forward every single expansion has been worse and worse (granted the game is what 100 years old now?).
Apparently a lot of people raid in WoW now with the lfg thing whatever…
Yes, and it has been one of the most destructive additions to that games creative and fun developement in recent years.
Suure, which is why the expact that introduced it ended up to be the most succesful one.
And not even 2 years down the line the quality of the content deteriorated so much that even passionate players were complaining. Everyone who wasn’t complaining then certainly was by the time pandaland hit.
But that wasn’t due to LFR, was it.
It’s not like since WotLK Blizz didn’t make a lot of other, much more dubious changes.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Apparently a lot of people raid in WoW now with the lfg thing whatever…
Yes, and it has been one of the most destructive additions to that games creative and fun developement in recent years.
Suure, which is why the expact that introduced it ended up to be the most succesful one.
And not even 2 years down the line the quality of the content deteriorated so much that even passionate players were complaining. Everyone who wasn’t complaining then certainly was by the time pandaland hit.
But that wasn’t due to LFR, was it.
It’s not like since WotLK Blizz didn’t make a lot of other, much more dubious changes.
True and I would never say it was only do to LFR. LFR has it’s share of blame for stale content developement though.
Raids are succeeding where Dungeons failed hard
Considering that dungeons likely were far more popular than raids will ever be, that’s a mighty claim.
People DID dungeons. That doesn’t mean they enjoyed them.
I ran dungeons – and still do – does that mean I consider them a success? Not really. I just like the easy loot.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
Raids are succeeding where Dungeons failed hard
Considering that dungeons likely were far more popular than raids will ever be, that’s a mighty claim.
People DID dungeons. That doesn’t mean they enjoyed them.
Because everyone that’s running raids is so obviously enjoying them [/sarcasm]
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Raids are succeeding where Dungeons failed hard
Considering that dungeons likely were far more popular than raids will ever be, that’s a mighty claim.
People DID dungeons. That doesn’t mean they enjoyed them.
Because everyone that’s running raids is so obviously enjoying them [/sarcasm]
Actually, the common opinion from people who run raids is that the fights are fun, challenging and a full success.
The major complaints come from people who do not raid interestingly enough.
Raids are succeeding where Dungeons failed hard
Considering that dungeons likely were far more popular than raids will ever be, that’s a mighty claim.
People DID dungeons. That doesn’t mean they enjoyed them.
Because everyone that’s running raids is so obviously enjoying them [/sarcasm]
Actually, the common opinion from people who run raids is that the fights are fun, challenging and a full success.
The major complaints come from people who
do not raid interestingly enoughhave difficulties organizing a raid for various reasons.
I took the liberty of making a small correction.
Key word is were, which results in why they failed.
Fractals and Raids will be the focus, in fact I would say that Fractals are even better than Dungeons ever were. Raids are just starting, but Fractals are consistently being run.
They were popular despite Anet deliberately ignoring them, and remained so until Anet took them out back and shot them at HoT’s launch.
And if fractals still had their pre-HoT rewards hardly anyone would be running them. Plus, there’s the whole “no reason to do low-level fractals so screw you anyone who can’t do t4s” issue that was explicitly caused by people being whiny babies about other people not doing fractals the way they wanted people doing fractals.
(edited by Hyper Cutter.9376)
Raids are succeeding where Dungeons failed hard
Considering that dungeons likely were far more popular than raids will ever be, that’s a mighty claim.
People DID dungeons. That doesn’t mean they enjoyed them.
Because everyone that’s running raids is so obviously enjoying them [/sarcasm]
Actually, the common opinion from people who run raids is that the fights are fun, challenging and a full success.
The major complaints come from people who do not raid interestingly enough.
People who raid actually enjoy it. I’ve seen many “established” raiders raid 2-3-4-5 times a week, sometimes clearing wings numerous times to help friends or newbie players.
I would raid more than clearing once too provided I had the time for it because it is actually fun.
As Cy nicely noted – most QQ about raids is from non-raiders.
Just like back in the day most people who QQd about the dungeon meta only did dungeons like maybe a couple of times a week.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
Raids are succeeding where Dungeons failed hard
Considering that dungeons likely were far more popular than raids will ever be, that’s a mighty claim.
People DID dungeons. That doesn’t mean they enjoyed them.
Because everyone that’s running raids is so obviously enjoying them [/sarcasm]
Actually, the common opinion from people who run raids is that the fights are fun, challenging and a full success.
The major complaints come from people who
do not raid interestingly enoughhave difficulties organizing a raid because they’re not going to be bothered to actually do it.I took the liberty of making a small correction.
I fixed it for you.
If others can do it – so can you.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
Raids are succeeding where Dungeons failed hard
Considering that dungeons likely were far more popular than raids will ever be, that’s a mighty claim.
People DID dungeons. That doesn’t mean they enjoyed them.
Because everyone that’s running raids is so obviously enjoying them [/sarcasm]
Actually, the common opinion from people who run raids is that the fights are fun, challenging and a full success.
The major complaints come from people who
do not raid interestingly enoughhave difficulties organizing a raid because they’re not going to be bothered to actually do it.I took the liberty of making a small correction.
I fixed it for you.
If others can do it – so can you.
No, sry but that is utter BS on steroid for many ppl. And I’m polite.
Reality is, it takes a lot of time and opportunities for some to gather all that is required for a raid that they can’t reasonably be expected to invest into.
Even if you can find guilds, many have prerequisites that can be hard to meet for some ppl whose time frame simply isn’t coherent with a lot of guilds. Even if you can theoretically participate in a guild a lot of the time there is already a full group and there isn’t enough for a second one at the moment you can try… it’s a pain.
The only reason I don’t do more raids isn’t because I can’t beat them. I already did for many bosses. The problem is all the logistic you seemingly take for granted that enter the equation each time. The raid isn’t that hard in itself. Getting all set-up can be for many.
Yes it does take a lot of time and resources invested if you want to raid. But OTHERS are raiding and that means it is doable.
The only problem is that others aren’t willing to bother but still want the benefits of raiding. Without having to actually do the things required.
It’s like me demanding that I get the Exalted Backpiece item skin because I bought HoT and because I want it.
I don’t want to work for it and do Tarir and events to get the collection done – I just want the item – so Anet give it to me because it’s content and I paid for the expansion.
Don’t give me the “timeframe argument” – there are raid groups from EVERY timezone.
I’m on the US server and play on EU time – so I know what it’s like to have difficulty with raiding because of time zones. I found people in my time zone though – I went to the effort of doing it and I did.
And when I couldn’t I made the effort and raided at 3 AM with the US people. Because if you want to do something then you have to sacrifice something.
Most raiding guilds have more than one team – and you can always make your own group.
The logistic I “seemingly take for granted” is there for me because I actually bothered to do things in order to make that logistic happen.
I geared up my characters so I could get into a good raiding guild. I talked to people – I found people in my timezone.
When I couldn’t run with a static group I made PUG groups and led the raid myself – because I wanted the kills and knew nobody was going to do stuff for me unless I did it myself.
Next thing I hear is that starting the game is hard too.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
Yes it does take a lot of time and resources invested if you want to raid. But OTHERS are raiding and that means it is doable.
The only problem is that others aren’t willing to bother but still want the benefits of raiding. Without having to actually do the things required.It’s like me demanding that I get the Exalted Backpiece item skin because I bought HoT and because I want it.
I don’t want to work for it and do Tarir and events to get the collection done – I just want the item – so Anet give it to me because it’s content and I paid for the expansion.Don’t give me the “timeframe argument” – there are raid groups from EVERY timezone.
I’m on the US server and play on EU time – so I know what it’s like to have difficulty with raiding because of time zones. I found people in my time zone though – I went to the effort of doing it and I did.
And when I couldn’t I made the effort and raided at 3 AM with the US people. Because if you want to do something then you have to sacrifice something.Most raiding guilds have more than one team – and you can always make your own group.
The logistic I “seemingly take for granted” is there for me because I actually bothered to do things in order to make that logistic happen.
I geared up my characters so I could get into a good raiding guild. I talked to people – I found people in my timezone.
When I couldn’t run with a static group I made PUG groups and led the raid myself – because I wanted the kills and knew nobody was going to do stuff for me unless I did it myself.Next thing I hear is that starting the game is hard too.
Next thing you hear is that there is a lot of unsatisfied customers, who bought this game when it was advertised as something new and not wow-like, and now you here, and telling everyone that its fine and working as intended. You like it? Great. But who are you to tell everyone else that your opinion is only right one?
No one even asking for same loot, or raid legendaries, or nerfing current raids, people just want some godkitten decent way to learn and get into raids. No, your teaching guilds is not that one, and will never be, because its developers work to create a proper way into content, not waiting for some unknown people who may, or may not do it due to various reasons.
And yet all that I hear here is “no, you must do what I did, because I said so”.
Kiijna, Xast, Satis Ironwail, Sekhaina, Shira Forgesparkle, Sfeno, Nasibi, Tegeira, Rhonwe…
25 charracters
25 charracters
Yes it does take a lot of time and resources invested if you want to raid. But OTHERS are raiding and that means it is doable.
The only problem is that others aren’t willing to bother but still want the benefits of raiding. Without having to actually do the things required.It’s like me demanding that I get the Exalted Backpiece item skin because I bought HoT and because I want it.
I don’t want to work for it and do Tarir and events to get the collection done – I just want the item – so Anet give it to me because it’s content and I paid for the expansion.Don’t give me the “timeframe argument” – there are raid groups from EVERY timezone.
I’m on the US server and play on EU time – so I know what it’s like to have difficulty with raiding because of time zones. I found people in my time zone though – I went to the effort of doing it and I did.
And when I couldn’t I made the effort and raided at 3 AM with the US people. Because if you want to do something then you have to sacrifice something.Most raiding guilds have more than one team – and you can always make your own group.
The logistic I “seemingly take for granted” is there for me because I actually bothered to do things in order to make that logistic happen.
I geared up my characters so I could get into a good raiding guild. I talked to people – I found people in my timezone.
When I couldn’t run with a static group I made PUG groups and led the raid myself – because I wanted the kills and knew nobody was going to do stuff for me unless I did it myself.Next thing I hear is that starting the game is hard too.
Next thing you hear is that there is a lot of unsatisfied customers, who bought this game when it was advertised as something new and not wow-like, and now you here, and telling everyone that its fine and working as intended. You like it? Great. But who are you to tell everyone else that your opinion is only right one?
No one even asking for same loot, or raid legendaries, or nerfing current raids, people just want some godkitten decent way to learn and get into raids. No, your teaching guilds is not that one, and will never be, because its developers work to create a proper way into content, not waiting for some unknown people who may, or may not do it due to various reasons.
And yet all that I hear here is “no, you must do what I did, because I said so”.
The core game still exist and plenty of area’s in HoT are casual friendly. The only “hard content” added was raids which was promised as a feature of the expansion….
If you have a problem with this you really shouldn’t, as there’s nothing stopping you from enjoying the rest of the game aside from you.
You can try and spin the blame on ANet or Raids but at the end of the day it’s a you issue as a consumer.
Yes it does take a lot of time and resources invested if you want to raid. But OTHERS are raiding and that means it is doable.
The only problem is that others aren’t willing to bother but still want the benefits of raiding. Without having to actually do the things required.
Yes, and THAT is the problem that needs resolving. Glad we’re finally on the same page. So what solutions do you have in mind for players that aren’t willing to bother but still want the benefits of raiding?
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”