Guild Wars 2

TexZero.7910:

The core game still exist and plenty of area’s in HoT are casual friendly. The only “hard content” added was raids which was promised as a feature of the expansion….

If you have a problem with this you really shouldn’t, as there’s nothing stopping you from enjoying the rest of the game aside from you.

You can try and spin the blame on ANet or Raids but at the end of the day it’s a you issue as a consumer.

Hard content is not a problem. Problem started when it was made as only endgame content, along with 10 years old model to introduce it.

Rednik.3809:

TexZero.7910:

The core game still exist and plenty of area’s in HoT are casual friendly. The only “hard content” added was raids which was promised as a feature of the expansion….

If you have a problem with this you really shouldn’t, as there’s nothing stopping you from enjoying the rest of the game aside from you.

You can try and spin the blame on ANet or Raids but at the end of the day it’s a you issue as a consumer.

Hard content is not a problem. Problem started when it was made as only endgame content, along with 10 years old model to introduce it.

Fractals exist, your argument is moot. They too were intended to reshape the endgame content area. They’ve had several iterations because they didnt quite meet expectations but that does not change the fact that the game has had endgame content for more time than you’re giving it credit for.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes it does take a lot of time and resources invested if you want to raid. But OTHERS are raiding and that means it is doable.
The only problem is that others aren’t willing to bother but still want the benefits of raiding. Without having to actually do the things required.

Yes, and THAT is the problem that needs resolving. Glad we’re finally on the same page. So what solutions do you have in mind for players that aren’t willing to bother but still want the benefits of raiding?

If they aren’t willing, then they don’t get it and it doesn’t need a solution. It’s that simple.

You can make hard content without making it frustrating. Guild Wars 2 raids are frustratingly hard because of gimmicks like timers that makes you restart a fight dozens of time until half your party rage-quit. The only outcome for failure to beat a timer should be a smaller reward at the end, the time you take should be an issue preventing you from moving forward, to the contrary.

That’s the reason why the vast majority just aren’t interested. They tried, and it just became frustrating, because even if you’re good, even if you kick kitten at dodging/healing/casting, if you take 5 seconds too much you have to start all over.

Xillllix.3485:

You can make hard content without making it frustrating. Guild Wars 2 raids are frustratingly hard because of gimmicks like timers that makes you restart a fight dozens of time until half your party rage-quit. The only outcome for failure to beat a timer should be a smaller reward at the end, the time you take should be an issue preventing you from moving forward, to the contrary.

That’s the reason why the vast majority just aren’t interested. They tried, and it just became frustrating, because even if you’re good, even if you kick kitten at dodging/healing/casting, if you take 5 seconds too much you have to start all over.

If it took you 5 seconds too much I guess you weren’t good enough.

Also if they remove the timer they will have to make a lot of changes so raids won’t end up like a snoozefest similar to fractals.

Harper.4173:

Yes it does take a lot of time and resources invested if you want to raid. But OTHERS are raiding and that means it is doable.
The only problem is that others aren’t willing to bother but still want the benefits of raiding. Without having to actually do the things required.

It’s like me demanding that I get the Exalted Backpiece item skin because I bought HoT and because I want it.
I don’t want to work for it and do Tarir and events to get the collection done – I just want the item – so Anet give it to me because it’s content and I paid for the expansion.

Don’t give me the “timeframe argument” – there are raid groups from EVERY timezone.
I’m on the US server and play on EU time – so I know what it’s like to have difficulty with raiding because of time zones. I found people in my time zone though – I went to the effort of doing it and I did.
And when I couldn’t I made the effort and raided at 3 AM with the US people. Because if you want to do something then you have to sacrifice something.

Most raiding guilds have more than one team – and you can always make your own group.

The logistic I “seemingly take for granted” is there for me because I actually bothered to do things in order to make that logistic happen.
I geared up my characters so I could get into a good raiding guild. I talked to people – I found people in my timezone.
When I couldn’t run with a static group I made PUG groups and led the raid myself – because I wanted the kills and knew nobody was going to do stuff for me unless I did it myself.

Next thing I hear is that starting the game is hard too.

Oh, dear. I like it when ppl like you know better than others what is happening to them despite having no clue whatsoever. No, really, that is quite the super power you got there.

That “I don’t want to work for it” is quite a straw man. It’s not a question of “working for it” it’s a question of logistic like I already said a lot of times already. If it was merely a question of working for it and I was the only one involved it would have looooooooong been a done deal you can believe me. It would be no different than all I did previously for my 9 legendaries, 26k+ AP or the PVP achieves and back pack/Fractals lvl100 and backpack etc. The difference for all the rest in GW" is that no otgher content in game ask you to spend so much time preparing before even trying.

Yes, there are guilds for all time zones, thank you for telling the obvious and missing the point that you can waste a immense load of time just getting a solid stable group even if you are part of such a guild.

The problem is, despite having participated in many such guilds, too often the core group of that guild was already quite close and stable and I often ended not having a lot of opportunities to raid at all with them because of the habit they had taken. Some other guilds were quite frankly not serious about the raid and were making no progress at all so I eventually quit them (there are limits when you see these players never make any progress fooling around). One of the guild I was in imploded when a key member who was unemployed started to work again. I even got kicked once out of a raid guild because I told the leader I could not participate ONE time that he really would have wanted when I was defending my borderland in WvW (seriously…).

Raid also isn’t the only thing I do in GW2 nor is it the most fun thing to me even if I did liked the few encounters and boss kills I got. The guy who “tries nothing” and “doesn’t want to play badly enough” is currently trying to form a group among his primary guild for nth times… but more often than not it’s the joy of pugging that awaits me with all that goes along… and it gets tiresome to organize the pugs only to have one guy leave and too often create a domino effect leading to “let’s try some other day”… But the truth is we wasted more than a hour for quite nothing really….

All this to say that if you got a stable working group for raids gg to you but please kitten about others not having tried or not “wanting badly enough” because, frankly, the truth is you haven’t got a clue whatsoever. Enjoy your situation and stop taking stuff for granted by looking at yourself as a perfectly valid sample of everybody on earth. Ppl who want to have inferential power have quite a few things to deal with to get a representative samples… Oh, and try to lessen the amount of staw men you go for. It doesn’t help.

If they aren’t willing, then they don’t get it and it doesn’t need a solution. It’s that simple.

No, that’s just repeating the problem, not defining a solution to it. Ok, let me rephrase. Say you’re working for a business, and you’ve determined that the status quo does not adequately service a significant portion of your customer-base, but that you could make some reasonable alternatives that would serve that customer-base, increasing your profits. What would you do about it?

Ohoni.6057:

If they aren’t willing, then they don’t get it and it doesn’t need a solution. It’s that simple.

No, that’s just repeating the problem, not defining a solution to it. Ok, let me rephrase. Say you’re working for a business, and you’ve determined that the status quo does not adequately service a significant portion of your customer-base, but that you could make some reasonable alternatives that would serve that customer-base, increasing your profits. What would you do about it?

Poor analogy.

The status quo fits the targeted audience. What you’re asking for is akin to targeting adult movies to little kids. It’s not the design. But once they kids grow up they sure as heck can start watching those movies.

The status quo fits the targeted audience. What you’re asking for is akin to targeting adult movies to little kids. It’s not the design. But once they kids grow up they sure as heck can start watching those movies.

This is not a standalone project, like a single movie. It is a component of a larger whole, and the entire audience must be considered. The audience is the entire game population, and there’s zero evidence that raids currently work for that audience as a whole. Successfully appealing to a very small fragment of that audience is not necessarily a worthwhile goal if it leaves the remainder feeling left out. The only way you can successfully target a tiny portion of the total audience is if you also do right by the remainder.

I think we can agree that they’ve successfully sated the small target audience, but now we have to figure out how to sate the remainder.

Ohoni.6057:

I think we can agree that they’ve successfully sated the small target audience, but now we have to figure out how to sate the remainder.

The release of LS is only more than a week away. I tell all of them: Be patient, you can. You don’t get raids. That’s good & very important. Every day I am happy Anet won’t change anything about raids.

The release of LS is only more than a week away.

That’s a completely different element, it has nothing to do with it. We’re talking about raids here, how to make the people who do not enjoy the current iteration of raiding satisfied that they are missing out on the contents and rewards currently gated behind raids. I’ll give you a hint, telling them that they should be ok with it will not make them ok with it.

Ohoni.6057:

The release of LS is only more than a week away.

That’s a completely different element, it has nothing to do with it. We’re talking about raids here, how to make the people who do not enjoy the current iteration of raiding satisfied that they are missing out on the contents and rewards currently gated behind raids. I’ll give you a hint, telling them that they should be ok with it will not make them ok with it.

Yet it wont solve anything if they make easy raids because the rewards will still be less then a longer raids, im sorry but thats the way any game should work, the harder the difficulty the bigger the rewards, people will always find a reason to complain, did you even watch the video? Not likely.

Personally I would love to easy two kinds of raids, when I have less time I can do the easier and shorter raid.

Yet it wont solve anything if they make easy raids because the rewards will still be less then a longer raids, im sorry but thats the way any game should work, the harder the difficulty the bigger the rewards, people will always find a reason to complain, did you even watch the video? Not likely.

It’s safe to assume that we would receive a decreased quantity of reward, but there’s no need for a reduction in quality. That’s just a spite argument made by raiders who don’t want non-raiders to be happy, there’s just no call for it.

Personally I would love to easy two kinds of raids, when I have less time I can do the easier and shorter raid.

Exactly, everyone benefits.

Ohoni.6057:

Yet it wont solve anything if they make easy raids because the rewards will still be less then a longer raids, im sorry but thats the way any game should work, the harder the difficulty the bigger the rewards, people will always find a reason to complain, did you even watch the video? Not likely.

It’s safe to assume that we would receive a decreased quantity of reward, but there’s no need for a reduction in quality. That’s just a spite argument made by raiders who don’t want non-raiders to be happy, there’s just no call for it.

Personally I would love to easy two kinds of raids, when I have less time I can do the easier and shorter raid.

Exactly, everyone benefits.

Regardless it will be a reduction in quality though because the harder raids will be more rewarding. But anyways adding brand new raids takes work, and people wanted season 3. And if they did easier raids it will probably by something similar to 5 mans like in wow.

Ohoni.6057:

The status quo fits the targeted audience. What you’re asking for is akin to targeting adult movies to little kids. It’s not the design. But once they kids grow up they sure as heck can start watching those movies.

This is not a standalone project, like a single movie. It is a component of a larger whole, and the entire audience must be considered. The audience is the entire game population, and there’s zero evidence that raids currently work for that audience as a whole. Successfully appealing to a very small fragment of that audience is not necessarily a worthwhile goal if it leaves the remainder feeling left out. The only way you can successfully target a tiny portion of the total audience is if you also do right by the remainder.

I think we can agree that they’ve successfully sated the small target audience, but now we have to figure out how to sate the remainder.

Yet again you’re missing the point. Intentionally at that.

Raids are not designed for everyone. If they were they’d be called OPEN WORLD content, not Raids, not Challenging Group content, not The Ultimate End Game challenge.

They are not meant for every tom, joe and marry; And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that philosophy. There is other content out there meant for everyone go play that.

TexZero.7910:

Ohoni.6057:

The status quo fits the targeted audience. What you’re asking for is akin to targeting adult movies to little kids. It’s not the design. But once they kids grow up they sure as heck can start watching those movies.

This is not a standalone project, like a single movie. It is a component of a larger whole, and the entire audience must be considered. The audience is the entire game population, and there’s zero evidence that raids currently work for that audience as a whole. Successfully appealing to a very small fragment of that audience is not necessarily a worthwhile goal if it leaves the remainder feeling left out. The only way you can successfully target a tiny portion of the total audience is if you also do right by the remainder.

I think we can agree that they’ve successfully sated the small target audience, but now we have to figure out how to sate the remainder.

Yet again you’re missing the point. Intentionally at that.

Raids are not designed for everyone. If they were they’d be called OPEN WORLD content, not Raids, not Challenging Group content, not The Ultimate End Game challenge.

They are not meant for every tom, joe and marry; And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that philosophy. There is other content out there meant for everyone go play that.

The issue is the perspectives that people have them is very wrong, there isnt one single player game that is literally made for everyone but an mmorpg is so massive it can fit multiple things into it so it will interest a varied amount of people but never everything and no one is going to enjoy every single aspect of it.

And ive never seen an mmorpg appeal to everyone, and let me tell you it wouldnt work if someone tried. Just like any game you still need a certain main direction you are going, you cannot spread it to thin otherwise it can easily breakdown.

Rednik.3809:

Harper.4173:

Yes it does take a lot of time and resources invested if you want to raid. But OTHERS are raiding and that means it is doable.
The only problem is that others aren’t willing to bother but still want the benefits of raiding. Without having to actually do the things required.

It’s like me demanding that I get the Exalted Backpiece item skin because I bought HoT and because I want it.
I don’t want to work for it and do Tarir and events to get the collection done – I just want the item – so Anet give it to me because it’s content and I paid for the expansion.

Don’t give me the “timeframe argument” – there are raid groups from EVERY timezone.
I’m on the US server and play on EU time – so I know what it’s like to have difficulty with raiding because of time zones. I found people in my time zone though – I went to the effort of doing it and I did.
And when I couldn’t I made the effort and raided at 3 AM with the US people. Because if you want to do something then you have to sacrifice something.

Most raiding guilds have more than one team – and you can always make your own group.

The logistic I “seemingly take for granted” is there for me because I actually bothered to do things in order to make that logistic happen.
I geared up my characters so I could get into a good raiding guild. I talked to people – I found people in my timezone.
When I couldn’t run with a static group I made PUG groups and led the raid myself – because I wanted the kills and knew nobody was going to do stuff for me unless I did it myself.

Next thing I hear is that starting the game is hard too.

Next thing you hear is that there is a lot of unsatisfied customers, who bought this game when it was advertised as something new and not wow-like, and now you here, and telling everyone that its fine and working as intended. You like it? Great. But who are you to tell everyone else that your opinion is only right one?
No one even asking for same loot, or raid legendaries, or nerfing current raids, people just want some godkitten decent way to learn and get into raids. No, your teaching guilds is not that one, and will never be, because its developers work to create a proper way into content, not waiting for some unknown people who may, or may not do it due to various reasons.
And yet all that I hear here is “no, you must do what I did, because I said so”.

Having raids does not make this game WoW-like. Dear god if that were all it would take every single MMO since Everquest and even before would be identical.

WoW-like means having your stuff devalued on a constant basis and fed new pixel items making your old stuff obsolete. Same as most other MMOs on the market. That is where GW2 differs, and this has essentially not changed since introduction of ascended shortly after launch. On the contrary, most steps so far have been to make it easier for people to get ascended gear.

Stop mixing in arguments which are not on topic.

- Raiding is generally perceived as a huge success by the raiding community → subjective fact.

- Raiding is not as hard as people make it out to be difficulty wise, especially wing 3 – going by what pre-guilds have pulled off and the actual requirements to clear bosses → fact.

- It’s difficult to organise raids – subjective and debatable but let’s go with it’s definately not as easy as most other content in this game → subjective fact.

- all other pve content in this game at this point in time is face roll easy (yes, even high rank fractals if people are not asleep) → subjective fact.

- it is possible to aquire Best-in-Slot gear playing multiple game modes, doing different things → fact (yes, even viper gear since trinkets are not needed to cap condition duration. Most proper builds use sinister for pve anyway).

Cyninja.2954:

Having raids does not make this game WoW-like. Dear god if that were all it would take every single MMO since Everquest and even before would be identical.

WoW-like means having your stuff devalued on a constant basis and fed new pixel items making your old stuff obsolete. Same as most other MMOs on the market. That is where GW2 differs, and this has essentially not changed since introduction of ascended shortly after launch. On the contrary, most steps so far have been to make it easier for people to get ascended gear.

Stop mixing in arguments which are not on topic.

- Raiding is generally perceived as a huge success by the raiding community -> subjective fact.

- Raiding is not as hard as people make it out to be difficulty wise, especially wing 3 – going by what pre-guilds have pulled off and the actual requirements to clear bosses -> fact.

- It’s difficult to organise raids – subjective and debatable but let’s go with it’s definately not as easy as most other content in this game -> subjective fact.

- all other pve content in this game at this point in time is face roll easy (yes, even high rank fractals if people are not asleep) -> subjective fact.

- it is possible to aquire Best-in-Slot gear playing multiple game modes, doing different things -> fact (yes, even viper gear since trinkets are not needed to cap condition duration. Most proper builds use sinister for pve anyway).

Ofc just having raids not making this game wow-like. Making them as only endgame content is. Raids getting all the shines – new armor, new unique drops, whole new class of legendaries, easy access to best armor and weapon drops and even their own currency to buy them. But that’s not an issue, “work hard – get best” is pretty fine. Anet succeeded to create a new endgame, but failed to introduce players to it. They had one of most smooth learning systems for endgame ever, when they made fractals, but suddenly ignored their own experience and experience of every other successful pve game on mmo scene.

Greymarch.3291:

That is what I try to encourage is starting your own groups rather than complain about the current set ups for one. But eh, its a really weird cycle.

I found Potato’s Video very enlightening from his stand points and they do make sense.

Also Arenanet heavily discourages sharing your API codes with others you do not know. Cause they are tied to your account.

That and some player’s will not be comfortable with giving away their account’s information to random people they do not know.

The only reasons i see for not sharing API are:
- checking out potential target of theft, scam etc.
- e-bullying

If you can handle both on your own, why not share your API if you want?

do people share their API or do they share their gw2efficiency page

the issue with ‘unsafe’ API use is that you can just create a site which protects the unsafe parts of the API while presenting the information you want presented

Rednik.3809:

Ofc just having raids not making this game wow-like. Making them as only endgame content is. Raids getting all the shines – new armor, new unique drops, whole new class of legendaries, easy access to best armor and weapon drops and even their own currency to buy them. But that’s not an issue, “work hard – get best” is pretty fine. Anet succeeded to create a new endgame, but failed to introduce players to it. They had one of most smooth learning systems for endgame ever, when they made fractals, but suddenly ignored their own experience and experience of every other successful pve game on mmo scene.

And that is essentially a difference in perspective.

- I don’t view raids as endgame. I view tham as challenging content alternative for people who seek somthing like this. PvE endgame in GW2 is and always has been world zerg events and amass as much trash loot as possible to get gold for loot you actually want. When 99% of the game is designed this way, the new 1% hardly can be considered endgame.

- raids get unique raid skins. I agree that other game modes should get unique items too (especially skins) and in some form or another they have. Fractals provide free ascended loot athigh tier if done regularly. Spvp provides dungeon skins, gold, tokens etc. free of charge, meaning your investment is close to 0 gold/material wise.

- easy access to gear in raids is debatable. The time it takes to get 1 item is significantly longer than it is to farm the gold for similar gear. The stat disparity is indeed unfair but as mentioned can be covered by different setups (viper armor for example which can get crafted)

- legendary armor is a reward for over 4 months of doing consistent content and investing a LOT of gold, and it’s exactly 0% better than ascended armor. I do agree though, there should be access to it via spvp and wvw, similar in length and difficulty to raids though.

This is once again an issue where a part of the playerbase screems “I’m getting treated unfair!” even though it’s at best a very hyped distraction. If you want to raid, put in the small effort. If not, well focus on things you can do and enjoy.

Once you start meating those full legendary people in wvw who can swap their stats on a whim after investing 30,000 gold into their gear, invest 3,000 gold into 3 full sets of ascended for the different stat combinations and be just as good as them. Problem solved.

Cyninja.2954:

Rednik.3809:

Ofc just having raids not making this game wow-like. Making them as only endgame content is. Raids getting all the shines – new armor, new unique drops, whole new class of legendaries, easy access to best armor and weapon drops and even their own currency to buy them. But that’s not an issue, “work hard – get best” is pretty fine. Anet succeeded to create a new endgame, but failed to introduce players to it. They had one of most smooth learning systems for endgame ever, when they made fractals, but suddenly ignored their own experience and experience of every other successful pve game on mmo scene.

And that is essentially a difference in perspective.

- I don’t view raids as endgame. I view tham as challenging content alternative for people who seek somthing like this. PvE endgame in GW2 is and always has been world zerg events and amass as much trash loot as possible to get gold for loot you actually want. When 99% of the game is designed this way, the new 1% hardly can be considered endgame.

- raids get unique raid skins. I agree that other game modes should get unique items too (especially skins) and in some form or another they have. Fractals provide free ascended loot athigh tier if done regularly. Spvp provides dungeon skins, gold, tokens etc. free of charge, meaning your investment is close to 0 gold/material wise.

- easy access to gear in raids is debatable. The time it takes to get 1 item is significantly longer than it is to farm the gold for similar gear. The stat disparity is indeed unfair but as mentioned can be covered by different setups (viper armor for example which can get crafted)

- legendary armor is a reward for over 4 months of doing consistent content and investing a LOT of gold, and it’s exactly 0% better than ascended armor. I do agree though, there should be access to it via spvp and wvw, similar in length and difficulty to raids though.

This is once again an issue where a part of the playerbase screems “I’m getting treated unfair!” even though it’s at best a very hyped distraction. If you want to raid, put in the small effort. If not, well focus on things you can do and enjoy.

Once you start meating those full legendary people in wvw who can swap their stats on a whim after investing 30,000 gold into their gear, invest 3,000 gold into 3 full sets of ascended for the different stat combinations and be just as good as them. Problem solved.

Just give other game modes their version of legendary armors. Make it as difficult to get as raids (or more for all I care). The content difficulty was never the problem for many (the logistic is) and a lot of ppl who feel forced to do raid (because the armor is what motivate them not the raid) will stop complaining about it. At least a good deal of ppl will, including myself.

The way I read some ppl who replied in this thread, I get the impression they have no jobs and lives in their parents’ basement. That if we aren’t willing to sacrifice our life our kids and jobs on the bloodstone we do not want to “raid enough”. I exaggerate, but you get the idea that there are unreasonable expectations flying around. For some it’s going to be unreasonable for a lot of reasons that have little to do with the content.

Vinceman.4572

The release of LS is only more than a week away. I tell all of them: Be patient, you can. You don’t get raids. That’s good & very important. Every day I am happy Anet won’t change anything about raids.

This was the answer to Ohoni’s post: “I think we can agree that they’ve successfully sated the small target audience, but now we have to figure out how to sate the remainder.”
Well, I want to ask you Vinceman: Why do you think the LS is ONLY for the rest of the players (the non raiders). Do you have any official statement of the developers regarding the LS3 claiming that they will deny the right to play this content for raiders? On the other hand I saw such a statement from the devs. telling us that the raids were DESIGNED with the idea in mind to make it non accessible to most of the players.

TaxZero.7910

Raids are not designed for everyone. If they were they’d be called OPEN WORLD content, not Raids, not Challenging Group content, not The Ultimate End Game challenge.

They are not meant for every tom, joe and marry; And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that philosophy. There is other content out there meant for everyone go play that.

Exactly what I said before. I bet you read the statements of the devs. regarding the Raids. But I do not agree with you: This philosophy is terribly wrong. So wrong that Collin lost his job by following it. So wrong that MO asked the community for a little bit of patience to fix the things. So wrong that NC Soft officials almost apologized with the famous statement: " we learned the lesson". (btw: if everything is so good with this philosophy, why the need to sacrifice a scapegoat to the community in order to buy few more months?).
Another point I cannot agree with you: You take the freedom to decide that a certain content is not for everyone. And that all the “tom, joe and marry” (capital letter missing at the beginning of the name – error or lack of respect for the other players? ) can play another content.
Question (for you too): Can you show me anything stopping you to play that content “designed” for “tom, joe and marry” ? What are the sources used when you divided the game in content for “tom, joe and marry” and content for responsible/honorable/ skilled/famous/prestigious players like you?

My conclusion regarding the subject: Wooden Potatoes considered the situation created by raids to be absurd and by the video he shows his revolt. I fully agree with him. It seems that he (and me, and more other persons posting here) belongs to the “tom, joe and marry” category of players. But, also seems that players as “tom, joe and marry” are far more than the prestigious/skillfull/famous/honorable minority. And taking this into consideration and adding the Anet and NC Soft reaction, I think that the statement: “Every day I am happy Anet won’t change anything about raids.” should be changed to: “Be happy and enjoy every day till Anet will change the raids making them accessible to the majority of “tom, joe and marry”. Only in that moment you can judge the success of the raids. Because raiding will be a matter of choice and not a matter of adjusting your RL program in order to meet the raid schedule.

I saw one of the persons posting here stating that he raided a 3.00 AM. I don’t think someone can make me believe that this is a normal behavior. The mankind is a diurnal species. Turning into a nocturnal one only to do something in a computer game does not sound very normal for me. But I’m OK with this (all in all this is a mater of personal choice) as long as the nocturnal batman is not trying to turn me into a bat also. And finding me guilty of lazyness, lack of skill, lack of desire for improvement only because I want to live my life as a normal human and not as an owl.
Don’t tell me to quit the game if I want to live as a normal human – playing is a very important aspect of a normal life. Unfortunately, some of us forgot that, and in this moment they don’t play, they … spend time in GW2, doing I don’t know what, but certainly not playing.

Cristalyan.5728:

Well, I want to ask you Vinceman: Why do you think the LS is ONLY for the rest of the players (the non raiders). Do you have any official statement of the developers regarding the LS3 claiming that they will deny the right to play this content for raiders? On the other hand I saw such a statement from the devs. telling us that the raids were DESIGNED with the idea in mind to make it non accessible to most of the players.

I haven’t said anything you have written above. I am just very pleased that there is content Ohoni and others aren’t enjoying at all plus that they feel excluded.
I don’t care about LS3. I will play it once for the story, maybe twice for some funny achievements and then go back to raids – the best decision Anet has ever implemented into this game.
I will state forever that we need content like raids because the skill gap between players is so high a “one for all” wouldn’t please the best of the best a.k.a. the elite. Due to easy raid mode development being too expensive to produce I think it’s better to deny content for some players if the rest of the game is big enough. GW2 is offering such amount – may the complaints become silent in the night, again: I don’t care any longer. ^^

Cristalyan.5728:

Vinceman.4572

The release of LS is only more than a week away. I tell all of them: Be patient, you can. You don’t get raids. That’s good & very important. Every day I am happy Anet won’t change anything about raids.

This was the answer to Ohoni’s post: “I think we can agree that they’ve successfully sated the small target audience, but now we have to figure out how to sate the remainder.”
Well, I want to ask you Vinceman: Why do you think the LS is ONLY for the rest of the players (the non raiders). Do you have any official statement of the developers regarding the LS3 claiming that they will deny the right to play this content for raiders? On the other hand I saw such a statement from the devs. telling us that the raids were DESIGNED with the idea in mind to make it non accessible to most of the players.

TaxZero.7910

Raids are not designed for everyone. If they were they’d be called OPEN WORLD content, not Raids, not Challenging Group content, not The Ultimate End Game challenge.

They are not meant for every tom, joe and marry; And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that philosophy. There is other content out there meant for everyone go play that.

Exactly what I said before. I bet you read the statements of the devs. regarding the Raids. But I do not agree with you: This philosophy is terribly wrong. So wrong that Collin lost his job by following it. So wrong that MO asked the community for a little bit of patience to fix the things. So wrong that NC Soft officials almost apologized with the famous statement: " we learned the lesson". (btw: if everything is so good with this philosophy, why the need to sacrifice a scapegoat to the community in order to buy few more months?).
Another point I cannot agree with you: You take the freedom to decide that a certain content is not for everyone. And that all the “tom, joe and marry” (capital letter missing at the beginning of the name – error or lack of respect for the other players? ) can play another content.
Question (for you too): Can you show me anything stopping you to play that content “designed” for “tom, joe and marry” ? What are the sources used when you divided the game in content for “tom, joe and marry” and content for responsible/honorable/ skilled/famous/prestigious players like you?

My conclusion regarding the subject: Wooden Potatoes considered the situation created by raids to be absurd and by the video he shows his revolt. I fully agree with him. It seems that he (and me, and more other persons posting here) belongs to the “tom, joe and marry” category of players. But, also seems that players as “tom, joe and marry” are far more than the prestigious/skillfull/famous/honorable minority. And taking this into consideration and adding the Anet and NC Soft reaction, I think that the statement: “Every day I am happy Anet won’t change anything about raids.” should be changed to: “Be happy and enjoy every day till Anet will change the raids making them accessible to the majority of “tom, joe and marry”. Only in that moment you can judge the success of the raids. Because raiding will be a matter of choice and not a matter of adjusting your RL program in order to meet the raid schedule.

I saw one of the persons posting here stating that he raided a 3.00 AM. I don’t think someone can make me believe that this is a normal behavior. The mankind is a diurnal species. Turning into a nocturnal one only to do something in a computer game does not sound very normal for me. But I’m OK with this (all in all this is a mater of personal choice) as long as the nocturnal batman is not trying to turn me into a bat also. And finding me guilty of lazyness, lack of skill, lack of desire for improvement only because I want to live my life as a normal human and not as an owl.
Don’t tell me to quit the game if I want to live as a normal human – playing is a very important aspect of a normal life. Unfortunately, some of us forgot that, and in this moment they don’t play, they … spend time in GW2, doing I don’t know what, but certainly not playing.

The dev’s have specifically stated that raids are for those players that want a challenge in the game. This doesn’t exclude all players those as everyone is free to raid. You can disagree all that you want about there being challenging content in the game but remember that 99% of the game is a faceroll.

I’d also like you to cite the source that Colin lost his job because of this. It’s sounds like nothing more than a cheap shot at him in order to make your argument seem more credible.

Players make the choice to play late into the evening and early morning. No content forces them to do this.

Vinceman.4572:

I will state forever that we need content like raids because the skill gap between players is so high a “one for all” wouldn’t please the best of the best a.k.a. the elite. Due to easy raid mode development being too expensive to produce I think it’s better to deny content for some players if the rest of the game is big enough. GW2 is offering such amount – may the complaints become silent in the night, again: I don’t care any longer. ^^

Nice, now we have a self-proclaimed “elite” who asks to deny other players from “their” content. I guess this post should be used as a perfect reference in any future discussions.

Vinceman.4572:

Cristalyan.5728:

Well, I want to ask you Vinceman: Why do you think the LS is ONLY for the rest of the players (the non raiders). Do you have any official statement of the developers regarding the LS3 claiming that they will deny the right to play this content for raiders? On the other hand I saw such a statement from the devs. telling us that the raids were DESIGNED with the idea in mind to make it non accessible to most of the players.

I haven’t said anything you have written above. I am just very pleased that there is content Ohoni and others aren’t enjoying at all plus that they feel excluded.
I don’t care about LS3. I will play it once for the story, maybe twice due the achievements and then go back to raids – the best decision Anet has ever implemented into this game.
I will state forever that we need content like raids because the skill gap between players is so high a “one for all” wouldn’t please the best of the best a.k.a. the elite. Due to easy raid mode development being too expensive to produce I think it’s better to deny content for some players if the rest of the game is big enough. GW2 is offering such amount – may the complaints become silent in the night. ^^

I don’t know why you still go back at “skill or skill cap” as the reason ppl are not participating when you have lots and lots of replies about the logistic being the problem and not how hard the content itself is.

The reality is it’s not the “skill of the elite” that sets the “elite” apart so much as the gaming disposition of the “elite” being coherent with raid logistic.

Remove the logistic so raids can be reasonably tried by all and you will see the “elite” population suddenly exploding and routinely beating all the bosses senseless every week like the current “elite” already does.

I’m glad Potato guy was honest about this and didn’t try to disguise his success as him simply being so far above mere mortals. Being elitist isn’t about being factually “good”. It’s an attitude that some ppl have that seek to look down on others. Don’t be an elitist. Be a good player (Elitist – kittenbaggery).

Rednik.3809:

Vinceman.4572:

I will state forever that we need content like raids because the skill gap between players is so high a “one for all” wouldn’t please the best of the best a.k.a. the elite. Due to easy raid mode development being too expensive to produce I think it’s better to deny content for some players if the rest of the game is big enough. GW2 is offering such amount – may the complaints become silent in the night, again: I don’t care any longer. ^^

Nice, now we have a self-proclaimed “elite” who asks to deny other players from “their” content. I guess this post should be used as a perfect reference in any future discussions.

That guild wars had enough content to please everyone?

That guild wars has easy and hard content?

That there’s always been content that players have not been able to complete?

I think we can cut the hyperbole. People enjoy different things in this game. Pve players don’t ask anet to make pvp more like pve. Same with wvw. Same with pve.

So why should raids be more like open world?

We’ve survived with hard content since the launch of guild wars 2. Hard content keeps players who’ve mastered the easier content in the game

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Vinceman.4572:

Cristalyan.5728:

Well, I want to ask you Vinceman: Why do you think the LS is ONLY for the rest of the players (the non raiders). Do you have any official statement of the developers regarding the LS3 claiming that they will deny the right to play this content for raiders? On the other hand I saw such a statement from the devs. telling us that the raids were DESIGNED with the idea in mind to make it non accessible to most of the players.

I haven’t said anything you have written above. I am just very pleased that there is content Ohoni and others aren’t enjoying at all plus that they feel excluded.
I don’t care about LS3. I will play it once for the story, maybe twice due the achievements and then go back to raids – the best decision Anet has ever implemented into this game.
I will state forever that we need content like raids because the skill gap between players is so high a “one for all” wouldn’t please the best of the best a.k.a. the elite. Due to easy raid mode development being too expensive to produce I think it’s better to deny content for some players if the rest of the game is big enough. GW2 is offering such amount – may the complaints become silent in the night. ^^

I don’t know why you still go back at “skill or skill cap” as the reason ppl are not participating when you have lots and lots of replies about the logistic being the problem and not how hard the content itself is.

The reality is it’s not the “skill of the elite” that sets the “elite” apart so much as the gaming disposition of the “elite” being coherent with raid logistic.

Remove the logistic so raids can be reasonably tried by all and you will see the “elite” population suddenly exploding and routinely beating all the bosses senseless every week like the current “elite” already does.

I’m glad Potato guy was honest about this and didn’t try to disguise his success as him simply being so far above mere mortals. Being elitist isn’t about being factually “good”. It’s an attitude that some ppl have that seek to look down on others. Don’t be an elitist. Be a good player (Elitist – kittenbaggery).

What are your constructive solutions? In my experience, people find groups through the lfg all the time. I think the actual problem is the weekly lockout, because there’s little incentive to fight bosses again later in the week.

And, future tip, name-calling rarely helps.

People keep bringing up this idea that raids should be for hardcore and living world should be for casuals – with fractals somewhere in between.

That idea might sound like it makes sense, but in reality, it splits the playerbase in ways that are not healthy. Anet saw this early on – its why there are difficult achievements, challenge motes, fractal levels, etc. in the game. The goal has always been to keep player together – to have them playing in the same areas or content, even if they weren’t playing the same ways or at the same level.

I do not see them changing this philosophy – and I do believe that they will see their misstep with raids sooner rather than later – and apply that same approach here. Otherwise, I do not see how raids can survive in the game.

A game mode can survive the inclusion of more players – through the introduction of layered difficulties. In fact, common sense says that it is the healthy approach – one that gives the developers reason to care more about raids.

Do you really think that Anet can legitimately continue regular support of a PVE game mode designed for a smaller percentage of the game population? More people raiding – through tiered difficulties and other accessibility tools – means they have a reason to insert raids into the game more often.

As an example, we haven’t seen new PVE guild mission in 3+ years, even though I would argue more people do missions than raid. So, if they use the model, develop separately for the separate groups based on game interest, we should see the next raid in 2020.

I don’t want that any more than anyone else – but that means creating more mass appeal for raids. I know some people don’t want that (often for extremely selfish reasons, imo), but it needs to happen or Anet will eventually have to abandon the idea of raiding altogether, for the reason I list above (their effort has to go where the players are).

Absurdo.8309:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Vinceman.4572:

Cristalyan.5728:

Well, I want to ask you Vinceman: Why do you think the LS is ONLY for the rest of the players (the non raiders). Do you have any official statement of the developers regarding the LS3 claiming that they will deny the right to play this content for raiders? On the other hand I saw such a statement from the devs. telling us that the raids were DESIGNED with the idea in mind to make it non accessible to most of the players.

I haven’t said anything you have written above. I am just very pleased that there is content Ohoni and others aren’t enjoying at all plus that they feel excluded.
I don’t care about LS3. I will play it once for the story, maybe twice due the achievements and then go back to raids – the best decision Anet has ever implemented into this game.
I will state forever that we need content like raids because the skill gap between players is so high a “one for all” wouldn’t please the best of the best a.k.a. the elite. Due to easy raid mode development being too expensive to produce I think it’s better to deny content for some players if the rest of the game is big enough. GW2 is offering such amount – may the complaints become silent in the night. ^^

I don’t know why you still go back at “skill or skill cap” as the reason ppl are not participating when you have lots and lots of replies about the logistic being the problem and not how hard the content itself is.

The reality is it’s not the “skill of the elite” that sets the “elite” apart so much as the gaming disposition of the “elite” being coherent with raid logistic.

Remove the logistic so raids can be reasonably tried by all and you will see the “elite” population suddenly exploding and routinely beating all the bosses senseless every week like the current “elite” already does.

I’m glad Potato guy was honest about this and didn’t try to disguise his success as him simply being so far above mere mortals. Being elitist isn’t about being factually “good”. It’s an attitude that some ppl have that seek to look down on others. Don’t be an elitist. Be a good player (Elitist – kittenbaggery).

What are your constructive solutions? In my experience, people find groups through the lfg all the time. I think the actual problem is the weekly lockout, because there’s little incentive to fight bosses again later in the week.

And, future tip, name-calling rarely helps.

Name calling? If you are referring to my usage of “Potato guy” to refer to WoodenPotato it wasn’t meant as an insult. Far from it. But, if he feels offended by it I’ll gladly apologize.

If however you find the word “elitist” insulting then don’t be one. I was targeting people who themselves say they are “the elite”. If the hat fits…

Now, as for the constructive solutions I’ll repeat what I already said before:

1) Offer legendary armors to other game modes (similarly difficult and costly).

2) If you can’t or won’t do #1 for a reason or another (possibly because they would have to make more collections and skins etc.), replace raid specific currencies that are asked in legendary gifts (looking hard at the 150 LI) by something more universal but equally long/costly that would be obtainable through other gaming areas. People already have to complete the entire raid to unlock the collections so, really, their skill/willingness to at least try isn’t the problem wouldn’t you agree? What does doing it 150 times instead of 30 times proves skill-wise?

If you say it makes the armor less prestigious because this LI bloating block so many out of the armor you aren’t defending the raid skill prestige so much as your own selfish interests. People who can’t do raid 150 times still won’t do it regardless of the armor. This should only be a problem for ppl who were planning on making the armor mean something it never could to begin with: skill is the barrier. It’s not.

You don’t have to be a hardcore player to be successful at raids. Raids are for those that want challenge which covers hardcore and casual players.

It’s pretty much the story of every pug group in any MMO ever.

• Pug leader wants to make a group with a high group of success.
• Pug leader has to invite strangers.
• Pug leader cannot tell how skilled or experienced the strangers are.
• Pug leader has many choices.
• Pug leader asks for potentially arbitrary proof of achievement/gear/items from large pool of strangers to narrow down their options.
• Players not selected by pug leader decide they hate the pug leader.
• Players who are new to content have difficulty finding groups since most pug leaders want to increase their chances of success.

At the end of the day, people making groups only have so many tools at their disposal to vet any potential group members. In an ideal world, these group leaders would ask questions that tap into the players knowledge of encounters instead of just asking for links to gear if they truly want the best players or we would have more group leaders that were willing to risk success chances in order to teach new players, but reality is what reality is.

And sometimes leaders of pugs are just as bad/foolish as the type of players they try so hard to exclude.

Dahkeus.8243:

It’s pretty much the story of every pug group in any MMO ever.

• Pug leader wants to make a group with a high group of success.
• Pug leader has to invite strangers.
• Pug leader cannot tell how skilled or experienced the strangers are.
• Pug leader has many choices.
• Pug leader asks for potentially arbitrary proof of achievement/gear/items from large pool of strangers to narrow down their options.
• Players not selected by pug leader decide they hate the pug leader.
• Players who are new to content have difficulty finding groups since most pug leaders want to increase their chances of success.

At the end of the day, people making groups only have so many tools at their disposal to vet any potential group members. In an ideal world, these group leaders would ask questions that tap into the players knowledge of encounters instead of just asking for links to gear if they truly want the best players or we would have more group leaders that were willing to risk success chances in order to teach new players, but reality is what reality is.

And sometimes leaders of pugs are just as bad/foolish as the type of players they try so hard to exclude.

What you describe right here is what constitute the real barrier to such a content.

I for one don’t want to see players who enjoy that content penalized one bit. I simply hope we are given alternatives (similarly hard or even harder content, NOT logistic) to reach the carrot (Legendary armor).

Blaeys.3102:

People keep bringing up this idea that raids should be for hardcore and living world should be for casuals – with fractals somewhere in between.

That idea might sound like it makes sense, but in reality, it splits the playerbase in ways that are not healthy. Anet saw this early on – its why there are difficult achievements, challenge motes, fractal levels, etc. in the game. The goal has always been to keep player together – to have them playing in the same areas or content, even if they weren’t playing the same ways or at the same level.

I do not see them changing this philosophy – and I do believe that they will see their misstep with raids sooner rather than later – and apply that same approach here. Otherwise, I do not see how raids can survive in the game.

A game mode can survive the inclusion of more players – through the introduction of layered difficulties. In fact, common sense says that it is the healthy approach – one that gives the developers reason to care more about raids.

Do you really think that Anet can legitimately continue regular support of a PVE game mode designed for a smaller percentage of the game population? More people raiding – through tiered difficulties and other accessibility tools – means they have a reason to insert raids into the game more often.

As an example, we haven’t seen new PVE guild mission in 3+ years, even though I would argue more people do missions than raid. So, if they use the model, develop separately for the separate groups based on game interest, we should see the next raid in 2020.

I don’t want that any more than anyone else – but that means creating more mass appeal for raids. I know some people don’t want that (often for extremely selfish reasons, imo), but it needs to happen or Anet will eventually have to abandon the idea of raiding altogether, for the reason I list above (their effort has to go where the players are).

The team developing raids is small compared to the rest of the team. You already have your wish regarding resource allocation.

Actually, I think multiple difficulty modes split the player base.

Assuming rewards are balanced correctly, you would not see many experienced players in easy mode. And you would not see new players in regular mode.

I learned a lot from playing with experienced dungeon players. About my class, tactics, and the encounter. You would not get the same kind of experience from easy mode.

And, there are already easy starter raids — escort is a good example.

Fractals are the exception, not the rule. And you can hardly call their easy modes successful. There’s no incentive for someone who can beat T4 to go back to a lower tier. And I believe that many would jump straight to t4, if they had the agony resist. As a result, you often find the “easy modes” harder than t4, because the players aren’t as experienced.

And yes, I think the raid team can continue to produce good content, as long as they aren’t bogged down by these types of requests.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Absurdo.8309:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Vinceman.4572:

Cristalyan.5728:

Well, I want to ask you Vinceman: Why do you think the LS is ONLY for the rest of the players (the non raiders). Do you have any official statement of the developers regarding the LS3 claiming that they will deny the right to play this content for raiders? On the other hand I saw such a statement from the devs. telling us that the raids were DESIGNED with the idea in mind to make it non accessible to most of the players.

I haven’t said anything you have written above. I am just very pleased that there is content Ohoni and others aren’t enjoying at all plus that they feel excluded.
I don’t care about LS3. I will play it once for the story, maybe twice due the achievements and then go back to raids – the best decision Anet has ever implemented into this game.
I will state forever that we need content like raids because the skill gap between players is so high a “one for all” wouldn’t please the best of the best a.k.a. the elite. Due to easy raid mode development being too expensive to produce I think it’s better to deny content for some players if the rest of the game is big enough. GW2 is offering such amount – may the complaints become silent in the night. ^^

I don’t know why you still go back at “skill or skill cap” as the reason ppl are not participating when you have lots and lots of replies about the logistic being the problem and not how hard the content itself is.

The reality is it’s not the “skill of the elite” that sets the “elite” apart so much as the gaming disposition of the “elite” being coherent with raid logistic.

Remove the logistic so raids can be reasonably tried by all and you will see the “elite” population suddenly exploding and routinely beating all the bosses senseless every week like the current “elite” already does.

I’m glad Potato guy was honest about this and didn’t try to disguise his success as him simply being so far above mere mortals. Being elitist isn’t about being factually “good”. It’s an attitude that some ppl have that seek to look down on others. Don’t be an elitist. Be a good player (Elitist – kittenbaggery).

What are your constructive solutions? In my experience, people find groups through the lfg all the time. I think the actual problem is the weekly lockout, because there’s little incentive to fight bosses again later in the week.

And, future tip, name-calling rarely helps.

Name calling? If you are referring to my usage of “Potato guy” to refer to WoodenPotato it wasn’t meant as an insult. Far from it. But, if he feels offended by it I’ll gladly apologize.

If however you find the word “elitist” insulting then don’t be one. I was targeting people who themselves say they are “the elite”. If the hat fits…

Now, as for the constructive solutions I’ll repeat what I already said before:

1) Offer legendary armors to other game modes (similarly difficult and costly).

2) If you can’t or won’t do #1 for a reason or another (possibly because they would have to make more collections and skins etc.), replace raid specific currencies that are asked in legendary gifts (looking hard at the 150 LI) by something more universal but equally long/costly that would be obtainable through other gaming areas. People already have to complete the entire raid to unlock the collections so, really, their skill/willingness to at least try isn’t the problem wouldn’t you agree? What does doing it 150 times instead of 30 times proves skill-wise?

If you say it makes the armor less prestigious because this LI bloating block so many out of the armor you aren’t defending the raid skill prestige so much as your own selfish interests. People who can’t do raid 150 times still won’t do it regardless of the armor. This should only be a problem for ppl who were planning on making the armor mean something it never could to begin with: skill is the barrier. It’s not.

These suggestions show that you aren’t concerned with your stated problem (accessibility), but the reward.

Fine. Just don’t hate on raids because you can’t get legendary armor.

And, for the record, I am ok with alternative ways to get legendary armor, as a low priority development item.

Absurdo.8309:

The team developing raids is small compared to the rest of the team. You already have your wish regarding resource allocation.

This is based off a single off the cuff statement on Reddit and has been proven to not be the case more than once.

While there may be a small core team developing raids (and I’m not sure I would consider what they’ve shown us to be small), they have stated that they pull in artists, coders, voice actors, story developers, etc. as they develop the content. I doubt the team is anywhere near small once you take those into account – and they most definitely have some impact on the rest of the company’s ability to develop content.

In physics, this is called the law of conservation of energy – in other words, the work has to come from a limited pool. And that limited pool would not be static if raids didn’t exist; it would be dedicated to other projects with greater mass appeal.

And the idea that multiple difficulty modes would split the playerbase seems like a faulty assumption to me – especially when you consider the alternative is to actually split the playerbase between game modes. Encouraging interest from more players seems like the logical first step to fixing the issue.

As far as escort is concerned, I agree – it is a great example. I think it sets a good baseline that lower difficulty development could aspire to (while simultaneously making that encounter more difficulty in higher levels).

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

The team developing raids is small compared to the rest of the team. You already have your wish regarding resource allocation.

This is based off a single off the cuff statement on Reddit and has been proven to not be the case more than once.

While there may be a small core team developing raids (and I’m not sure I would consider what they’ve shown us to be small), they have stated that they pull in artists, coders, voice actors, story developers, etc. as they develop the content. I doubt the team is anywhere near small once you take those into account – and they most definitely have some impact on the rest of the company’s ability to develop content.

In physics, this is called the law of conservation of energy – in other words, the work has to come from a limited pool. And that limited pool would not be static if raids didn’t exist; it would be dedicated to other projects with greater mass appeal.

And the idea that multiple difficulty modes would split the playerbase seems like a faulty assumption to me – especially when you consider the alternative is to actually split the playerbase between game modes. Encouraging interest from more players seems like the logical first step to fixing the issue.

As far as escort is concerned, I agree – it is a great example. I think it sets a good baseline that lower difficulty development could aspire to (while simultaneously making that encounter more difficulty in higher levels).

Source where it has been proven to not be the case? Pulling people for specific tasks does not mean that your team is bigger. I do project work and those that we contract for specific tasks are generally small in nature and they are in no way part of our team.

Absurdo.8309:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Absurdo.8309:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Vinceman.4572:

Cristalyan.5728:

Well, I want to ask you Vinceman: Why do you think the LS is ONLY for the rest of the players (the non raiders). Do you have any official statement of the developers regarding the LS3 claiming that they will deny the right to play this content for raiders? On the other hand I saw such a statement from the devs. telling us that the raids were DESIGNED with the idea in mind to make it non accessible to most of the players.

I haven’t said anything you have written above. I am just very pleased that there is content Ohoni and others aren’t enjoying at all plus that they feel excluded.
I don’t care about LS3. I will play it once for the story, maybe twice due the achievements and then go back to raids – the best decision Anet has ever implemented into this game.
I will state forever that we need content like raids because the skill gap between players is so high a “one for all” wouldn’t please the best of the best a.k.a. the elite. Due to easy raid mode development being too expensive to produce I think it’s better to deny content for some players if the rest of the game is big enough. GW2 is offering such amount – may the complaints become silent in the night. ^^

I don’t know why you still go back at “skill or skill cap” as the reason ppl are not participating when you have lots and lots of replies about the logistic being the problem and not how hard the content itself is.

The reality is it’s not the “skill of the elite” that sets the “elite” apart so much as the gaming disposition of the “elite” being coherent with raid logistic.

Remove the logistic so raids can be reasonably tried by all and you will see the “elite” population suddenly exploding and routinely beating all the bosses senseless every week like the current “elite” already does.

I’m glad Potato guy was honest about this and didn’t try to disguise his success as him simply being so far above mere mortals. Being elitist isn’t about being factually “good”. It’s an attitude that some ppl have that seek to look down on others. Don’t be an elitist. Be a good player (Elitist – kittenbaggery).

What are your constructive solutions? In my experience, people find groups through the lfg all the time. I think the actual problem is the weekly lockout, because there’s little incentive to fight bosses again later in the week.

And, future tip, name-calling rarely helps.

Name calling? If you are referring to my usage of “Potato guy” to refer to WoodenPotato it wasn’t meant as an insult. Far from it. But, if he feels offended by it I’ll gladly apologize.

If however you find the word “elitist” insulting then don’t be one. I was targeting people who themselves say they are “the elite”. If the hat fits…

Now, as for the constructive solutions I’ll repeat what I already said before:

1) Offer legendary armors to other game modes (similarly difficult and costly).

2) If you can’t or won’t do #1 for a reason or another (possibly because they would have to make more collections and skins etc.), replace raid specific currencies that are asked in legendary gifts (looking hard at the 150 LI) by something more universal but equally long/costly that would be obtainable through other gaming areas. People already have to complete the entire raid to unlock the collections so, really, their skill/willingness to at least try isn’t the problem wouldn’t you agree? What does doing it 150 times instead of 30 times proves skill-wise?

If you say it makes the armor less prestigious because this LI bloating block so many out of the armor you aren’t defending the raid skill prestige so much as your own selfish interests. People who can’t do raid 150 times still won’t do it regardless of the armor. This should only be a problem for ppl who were planning on making the armor mean something it never could to begin with: skill is the barrier. It’s not.

These suggestions show that you aren’t concerned with your stated problem (accessibility), but the reward.

Fine. Just don’t hate on raids because you can’t get legendary armor.

And, for the record, I am ok with alternative ways to get legendary armor, as a low priority development item.

First, I can certainly hate anything that locks something I want behind something I don’t feel like doing ad-nauseam. It’s perfectly legitimate to hate such a thing. Legendary items are what constitute long term goals for a lot of gamers including myself. The bulk of the new legendary items being canceled was already bad. Knowing that simply unlocking the collection for the armor isn’t all that we have to do regarding raids was not a pleasant surprised for me. It’s not low priority to me and a lot of ppl to access long term goal like the armor.

Second, as to accessibility, the lfg could benefit from some improvements considering raid specific needs. Something that show in real time what roles are filled when you look or apply for a raid in the lfg. It would make open raid groups of ppl way easier to organize when the roles would be updated automatically as soon ppl applying for one of the “raid slot” would be accepted in the raid group (or a slot becomes empty again). The creator of the lfg could decide what each of the 10 slots description would be and the players could apply for a slot in that lfg. It’s one of the upgrade that could make pugging such a content way easier.

Adding build templates saving to the game, like we had in Gw1, would also be quite nice and helpful.

Ayrilana.1396:

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

The team developing raids is small compared to the rest of the team. You already have your wish regarding resource allocation.

This is based off a single off the cuff statement on Reddit and has been proven to not be the case more than once.

While there may be a small core team developing raids (and I’m not sure I would consider what they’ve shown us to be small), they have stated that they pull in artists, coders, voice actors, story developers, etc. as they develop the content. I doubt the team is anywhere near small once you take those into account – and they most definitely have some impact on the rest of the company’s ability to develop content.

In physics, this is called the law of conservation of energy – in other words, the work has to come from a limited pool. And that limited pool would not be static if raids didn’t exist; it would be dedicated to other projects with greater mass appeal.

And the idea that multiple difficulty modes would split the playerbase seems like a faulty assumption to me – especially when you consider the alternative is to actually split the playerbase between game modes. Encouraging interest from more players seems like the logical first step to fixing the issue.

As far as escort is concerned, I agree – it is a great example. I think it sets a good baseline that lower difficulty development could aspire to (while simultaneously making that encounter more difficulty in higher levels).

Source where it has been proven to not be the case?

In their promotion/Twitch broadcasts/etc pushing raids, Anet employees have listed their raid team members and talked about bringing in outside resources to complete raids way more than they have talked about the small team size. They have listed the team members, but they have always been careful to give credit to all of the others behind the scenes.

The idea that the raid, which is essentially the size of a new open world map with complex boss fights, lore items (primarily in wing three with the statues), unique loot tables, explorable areas (such as the body in the water), etc took less effort to develop than a fractal, living story instance, guild mission or even world dynamic events, is patently absurd and I cannot believe that people actually believe it for a second.

Blaeys.3102:

Ayrilana.1396:

Blaeys.3102:

Absurdo.8309:

The team developing raids is small compared to the rest of the team. You already have your wish regarding resource allocation.

This is based off a single off the cuff statement on Reddit and has been proven to not be the case more than once.

While there may be a small core team developing raids (and I’m not sure I would consider what they’ve shown us to be small), they have stated that they pull in artists, coders, voice actors, story developers, etc. as they develop the content. I doubt the team is anywhere near small once you take those into account – and they most definitely have some impact on the rest of the company’s ability to develop content.

In physics, this is called the law of conservation of energy – in other words, the work has to come from a limited pool. And that limited pool would not be static if raids didn’t exist; it would be dedicated to other projects with greater mass appeal.

And the idea that multiple difficulty modes would split the playerbase seems like a faulty assumption to me – especially when you consider the alternative is to actually split the playerbase between game modes. Encouraging interest from more players seems like the logical first step to fixing the issue.

As far as escort is concerned, I agree – it is a great example. I think it sets a good baseline that lower difficulty development could aspire to (while simultaneously making that encounter more difficulty in higher levels).

Source where it has been proven to not be the case?

In their promotion/Twitch broadcasts/etc pushing raids, Anet employees have listed their raid team members and talked about bringing in outside resources to complete raids way more than they have talked about the small team size. They have listed the team members, but they have always been careful to give credit to all of the others behind the scenes.

The idea that the raid, which is essentially the size of a new open world map with complex boss fights, lore items (primarily in wing three with the statues), unique loot tables, explorable areas (such as the body in the water), etc took less effort to develop than a fractal, living story instance, guild mission or even world dynamic events, is patently absurd and I cannot believe that people actually believe it for a second.

Pulling in others for specific things does not mean that they are part of the team. The core majority of the raids is developed by that specific team. I don’t expect you to know this as you probably haven’t been a part of project work before.

The three raid wings were developed well before HoT was released. The raid isn’t really the size of an open world map nor isn’t it really the same in regards to complexity. I don’t see why it matters if it takes more or less effort to develop raids over other content.

Ayrilana.1396:

I don’t expect you to know this as you probably haven’t been a part of project work before.

Keep the personal insults out of the conversation. They only serve to derail topics and shutdown threads.

I raid with organized groups every week – I have raided end game hardcore progression – even have some world firsts. Outside the game, I have owned my own business for almost 10 years and am an extremely successful professional in my field who is called upon to build goal oriented teams for my clients. I am also a US military veteran that served as a medic with US Marines (Navy Corpsman) – which I think qualifies as team oriented work.

I only post this to refute the silly personal attack. The point is, keep to the topic at hand and leave the personal stuff out of it.

It doesn’t matter when the wings were developed – and the size of the map is something you see for yourself ingame. Again, consider the law of conservation of energy. All effort has to come from a finite pool – and, in the case of things like voice acting, map design, writing, etc, these are one to one correlations with non raid content (voice acting a raid boss’s line is identical to voice acting an open world character’s).

Blaeys.3102:

Ayrilana.1396:

I don’t expect you to know this as you probably haven’t been a part of project work before.

Keep the personal insults out of the conversation. They only serve to derail topics and shutdown threads.

I raid with organized groups every week – I have raided end game hardcore progression – even have some world firsts. Outside the game, I have owned my own business for almost 10 years and am an extremely successful professional in my field who is called upon to build goal oriented teams for my clients.

I only post this to refute the silly personal attack. The point is, keep to the topic at hand and leave the personal stuff out of it.

It doesn’t matter when the wings were developed – and the size of the map is something you see for yourself ingame. Again, consider the law of conservation of energy. All effort has to come from a finite pool – and, in the case of things like voice acting, map design, writing, etc, these are one to one correlations with non raid content (voice acting a raid boss’s line is identical to voice acting an open world character’s).

It wasn’t a personal insult. It was an assumption based on most people not having experience in project work. There’s really nothing wrong in that. It’s very much a part of the topic as the complaint was that they were misrepresenting the size of their team. I disputed it.

You cannot say that the raid map is the same as any of the other HoT maps or even the core maps.

Ayrilana.1396:

Blaeys.3102:

Ayrilana.1396:

I don’t expect you to know this as you probably haven’t been a part of project work before.

Keep the personal insults out of the conversation. They only serve to derail topics and shutdown threads.

I raid with organized groups every week – I have raided end game hardcore progression – even have some world firsts. Outside the game, I have owned my own business for almost 10 years and am an extremely successful professional in my field who is called upon to build goal oriented teams for my clients.

I only post this to refute the silly personal attack. The point is, keep to the topic at hand and leave the personal stuff out of it.

It doesn’t matter when the wings were developed – and the size of the map is something you see for yourself ingame. Again, consider the law of conservation of energy. All effort has to come from a finite pool – and, in the case of things like voice acting, map design, writing, etc, these are one to one correlations with non raid content (voice acting a raid boss’s line is identical to voice acting an open world character’s).

It wasn’t a personal insult. It was an assumption based on most people not having experience in project work. There’s really nothing wrong in that. It’s very much a part of the topic as the complaint was that they were misrepresenting the size of their team. I disputed it.

You cannot say that the raid map is the same as any of the other HoT maps or even the core maps.

I didn’t say it was exactly the same.

I said it was roughly the same size. It was in reference to the art and environmental resources used to develop the map.

I believe their may be some tasks associated with raids that are easier to do than others. But, when you add in all of the other elements that do have one to one correlations with other content (voice work, map development, fight balancing, writing lore – which they have bragged about, etc), the idea that SIGNIFICANTLY (key word) less effort was required seems a bit silly.

Blaeys.3102:

Ayrilana.1396:

Blaeys.3102:

Ayrilana.1396:

I don’t expect you to know this as you probably haven’t been a part of project work before.

Keep the personal insults out of the conversation. They only serve to derail topics and shutdown threads.

I raid with organized groups every week – I have raided end game hardcore progression – even have some world firsts. Outside the game, I have owned my own business for almost 10 years and am an extremely successful professional in my field who is called upon to build goal oriented teams for my clients.

I only post this to refute the silly personal attack. The point is, keep to the topic at hand and leave the personal stuff out of it.

It doesn’t matter when the wings were developed – and the size of the map is something you see for yourself ingame. Again, consider the law of conservation of energy. All effort has to come from a finite pool – and, in the case of things like voice acting, map design, writing, etc, these are one to one correlations with non raid content (voice acting a raid boss’s line is identical to voice acting an open world character’s).

It wasn’t a personal insult. It was an assumption based on most people not having experience in project work. There’s really nothing wrong in that. It’s very much a part of the topic as the complaint was that they were misrepresenting the size of their team. I disputed it.

You cannot say that the raid map is the same as any of the other HoT maps or even the core maps.

I didn’t say it was exactly the same.

I said it was roughly the same size. It was in reference to the art and environmental resources used to develop the map.

I believe their may be some tasks associated with raids that are easier to do than others. But, when you add in all of the other elements that do have one to one correlations with other content (voice work, map development, fight balancing, writing lore – which they have bragged about, etc), the idea that SIGNIFICANTLY (key word) less effort was required seems a bit silly.

I’m not sure how you can claim with a straight face that raids contain the same amount of environmental elements than open world maps.

Blaeys.3102:

Ayrilana.1396:

Blaeys.3102:

Ayrilana.1396:

I don’t expect you to know this as you probably haven’t been a part of project work before.

Keep the personal insults out of the conversation. They only serve to derail topics and shutdown threads.

I raid with organized groups every week – I have raided end game hardcore progression – even have some world firsts. Outside the game, I have owned my own business for almost 10 years and am an extremely successful professional in my field who is called upon to build goal oriented teams for my clients.

I only post this to refute the silly personal attack. The point is, keep to the topic at hand and leave the personal stuff out of it.

It doesn’t matter when the wings were developed – and the size of the map is something you see for yourself ingame. Again, consider the law of conservation of energy. All effort has to come from a finite pool – and, in the case of things like voice acting, map design, writing, etc, these are one to one correlations with non raid content (voice acting a raid boss’s line is identical to voice acting an open world character’s).

It wasn’t a personal insult. It was an assumption based on most people not having experience in project work. There’s really nothing wrong in that. It’s very much a part of the topic as the complaint was that they were misrepresenting the size of their team. I disputed it.

You cannot say that the raid map is the same as any of the other HoT maps or even the core maps.

I didn’t say it was exactly the same.

I said it was roughly the same size. It was in reference to the art and environmental resources used to develop the map.

I believe their may be some tasks associated with raids that are easier to do than others. But, when you add in all of the other elements that do have one to one correlations with other content (voice work, map development, fight balancing, writing lore – which they have bragged about, etc), the idea that SIGNIFICANTLY (key word) less effort was required seems a bit silly.

There is more that is put into open world maps than instanced maps. They are not equivalent or even close for that matter. It’s not really the same size as there’s not much walkable space. If there was a map that was the size of all of Heart of Maguuma, but only consisted of a small island the size of claw island, would you consider that map to be larger than the others? There’s also very little vertical space as well.

Also, what makes you think that the raid team doesn’t develop the maps themselves? I’m pretty sure that they develop all of the raid bosses too including the balancing. That’s the vast majority of what you see. The lore is fairly small in raids compared to the living story and chances are a lot of it will be used for LS3 in some way. Voice work is contracted out so I doubt it has any impact on any other areas of the game.

Ayrilana.1396:

Blaeys.3102:

Ayrilana.1396:

Blaeys.3102:

Ayrilana.1396:

I don’t expect you to know this as you probably haven’t been a part of project work before.

Keep the personal insults out of the conversation. They only serve to derail topics and shutdown threads.

I raid with organized groups every week – I have raided end game hardcore progression – even have some world firsts. Outside the game, I have owned my own business for almost 10 years and am an extremely successful professional in my field who is called upon to build goal oriented teams for my clients.

I only post this to refute the silly personal attack. The point is, keep to the topic at hand and leave the personal stuff out of it.

It doesn’t matter when the wings were developed – and the size of the map is something you see for yourself ingame. Again, consider the law of conservation of energy. All effort has to come from a finite pool – and, in the case of things like voice acting, map design, writing, etc, these are one to one correlations with non raid content (voice acting a raid boss’s line is identical to voice acting an open world character’s).

It wasn’t a personal insult. It was an assumption based on most people not having experience in project work. There’s really nothing wrong in that. It’s very much a part of the topic as the complaint was that they were misrepresenting the size of their team. I disputed it.

You cannot say that the raid map is the same as any of the other HoT maps or even the core maps.

I didn’t say it was exactly the same.

I said it was roughly the same size. It was in reference to the art and environmental resources used to develop the map.

I believe their may be some tasks associated with raids that are easier to do than others. But, when you add in all of the other elements that do have one to one correlations with other content (voice work, map development, fight balancing, writing lore – which they have bragged about, etc), the idea that SIGNIFICANTLY (key word) less effort was required seems a bit silly.

There is more that is put into open world maps than instanced maps. They are not equivalent or even close for that matter. It’s not really the same size as there’s not much walkable space. If there was a map that was the size of all of Heart of Maguuma, but only consisted of a small island the size of claw island, would you consider that map to be larger than the others? There’s also very little vertical space as well.

Also, what makes you think that the raid team doesn’t develop the maps themselves? I’m pretty sure that they develop all of the raid bosses too including the balancing. That’s the vast majority of what you see. The lore is fairly small in raids compared to the living story and chances are a lot of it will be used for LS3 in some way. Voice work is contracted out so I doubt it has any impact on any other areas of the game.

I stand by what I’ve listed above, but I also respect that you feel differently.

Personally, I think they overstated how easy raids are to develop in an effort to downplay community emotions regarding the content drought, and people have latched onto that as an argument for something else entirely.

I don’t mind that they use resources to develop raids – even if it is greater than they have led people to believe (which I feel is the case). I just believe that, to justify the use of any resources that would otherwise be used elsewhere, raids need to have greater appeal than they currently do.

Blaeys.3102:

Ayrilana.1396:

Blaeys.3102:

Ayrilana.1396:

Blaeys.3102:

Ayrilana.1396:

I don’t expect you to know this as you probably haven’t been a part of project work before.

Keep the personal insults out of the conversation. They only serve to derail topics and shutdown threads.

I raid with organized groups every week – I have raided end game hardcore progression – even have some world firsts. Outside the game, I have owned my own business for almost 10 years and am an extremely successful professional in my field who is called upon to build goal oriented teams for my clients.

I only post this to refute the silly personal attack. The point is, keep to the topic at hand and leave the personal stuff out of it.

It doesn’t matter when the wings were developed – and the size of the map is something you see for yourself ingame. Again, consider the law of conservation of energy. All effort has to come from a finite pool – and, in the case of things like voice acting, map design, writing, etc, these are one to one correlations with non raid content (voice acting a raid boss’s line is identical to voice acting an open world character’s).

It wasn’t a personal insult. It was an assumption based on most people not having experience in project work. There’s really nothing wrong in that. It’s very much a part of the topic as the complaint was that they were misrepresenting the size of their team. I disputed it.

You cannot say that the raid map is the same as any of the other HoT maps or even the core maps.

I didn’t say it was exactly the same.

I said it was roughly the same size. It was in reference to the art and environmental resources used to develop the map.

I believe their may be some tasks associated with raids that are easier to do than others. But, when you add in all of the other elements that do have one to one correlations with other content (voice work, map development, fight balancing, writing lore – which they have bragged about, etc), the idea that SIGNIFICANTLY (key word) less effort was required seems a bit silly.

There is more that is put into open world maps than instanced maps. They are not equivalent or even close for that matter. It’s not really the same size as there’s not much walkable space. If there was a map that was the size of all of Heart of Maguuma, but only consisted of a small island the size of claw island, would you consider that map to be larger than the others? There’s also very little vertical space as well.

Also, what makes you think that the raid team doesn’t develop the maps themselves? I’m pretty sure that they develop all of the raid bosses too including the balancing. That’s the vast majority of what you see. The lore is fairly small in raids compared to the living story and chances are a lot of it will be used for LS3 in some way. Voice work is contracted out so I doubt it has any impact on any other areas of the game.

I stand by what I’ve listed above, but I also respect that you feel differently.

Personally, I think they overstated how easy raids are to develop in an effort to downplay community emotions regarding the content drought, and people have latched onto that as an argument for something else entirely.

I don’t mind that they use resources to develop raids – even if it is greater than they have led people to believe (which I feel is the case). I just believe that, to justify the use of any resources that would otherwise be used elsewhere, raids need to have greater appeal than they currently do.

A bit of a harsh reply, but,

If you claim that resources are over-allocated to raids,

And then encounter evidence that the opposite is true,

Then the logical position is to recant or reform your argument.

Not double-down on a position when the evidence is against you.

Rednik.3809:

Nice, now we have a self-proclaimed “elite” who asks to deny other players from “their” content. I guess this post should be used as a perfect reference in any future discussions.

You are welcome. The hyperbole was also directed to you.

Absurdo.8309:

Blaeys.3102:

Ayrilana.1396:

Blaeys.3102:

Ayrilana.1396:

Blaeys.3102:

Ayrilana.1396:

I don’t expect you to know this as you probably haven’t been a part of project work before.

Keep the personal insults out of the conversation. They only serve to derail topics and shutdown threads.

I raid with organized groups every week – I have raided end game hardcore progression – even have some world firsts. Outside the game, I have owned my own business for almost 10 years and am an extremely successful professional in my field who is called upon to build goal oriented teams for my clients.

I only post this to refute the silly personal attack. The point is, keep to the topic at hand and leave the personal stuff out of it.

It doesn’t matter when the wings were developed – and the size of the map is something you see for yourself ingame. Again, consider the law of conservation of energy. All effort has to come from a finite pool – and, in the case of things like voice acting, map design, writing, etc, these are one to one correlations with non raid content (voice acting a raid boss’s line is identical to voice acting an open world character’s).

It wasn’t a personal insult. It was an assumption based on most people not having experience in project work. There’s really nothing wrong in that. It’s very much a part of the topic as the complaint was that they were misrepresenting the size of their team. I disputed it.

You cannot say that the raid map is the same as any of the other HoT maps or even the core maps.

I didn’t say it was exactly the same.

I said it was roughly the same size. It was in reference to the art and environmental resources used to develop the map.

I believe their may be some tasks associated with raids that are easier to do than others. But, when you add in all of the other elements that do have one to one correlations with other content (voice work, map development, fight balancing, writing lore – which they have bragged about, etc), the idea that SIGNIFICANTLY (key word) less effort was required seems a bit silly.

There is more that is put into open world maps than instanced maps. They are not equivalent or even close for that matter. It’s not really the same size as there’s not much walkable space. If there was a map that was the size of all of Heart of Maguuma, but only consisted of a small island the size of claw island, would you consider that map to be larger than the others? There’s also very little vertical space as well.

Also, what makes you think that the raid team doesn’t develop the maps themselves? I’m pretty sure that they develop all of the raid bosses too including the balancing. That’s the vast majority of what you see. The lore is fairly small in raids compared to the living story and chances are a lot of it will be used for LS3 in some way. Voice work is contracted out so I doubt it has any impact on any other areas of the game.

I stand by what I’ve listed above, but I also respect that you feel differently.

Personally, I think they overstated how easy raids are to develop in an effort to downplay community emotions regarding the content drought, and people have latched onto that as an argument for something else entirely.

I don’t mind that they use resources to develop raids – even if it is greater than they have led people to believe (which I feel is the case). I just believe that, to justify the use of any resources that would otherwise be used elsewhere, raids need to have greater appeal than they currently do.

A bit of a harsh reply, but,

If you claim that resources are over-allocated to raids,

And then encounter evidence that the opposite is true,

Then the logical position is to recant or reform your argument.

Not double-down on a position when the evidence is against you.

Because I don’t see the counterargument being as strong as people claim.

The raids, as they stand, have a lot of character and extemporaneous design – the river of souls, the Twisted Castle, the room of statues, the little cemetery before Gorseval, etc. Compare that to just about any Fractal – or even a map like Drytop or Southsun, and they seem pretty comparable. Voice acting is probably on par with any fractal (there is even PC voice responses). Fight designs rival anything in Southsun or any story instance. There are collection events and ambient mobs scattered throughout.

I just don’t see them as somehow less than just about any comparable location in the game (instanced or open world) – with some exceptions.

Anet’s claim that they had to put less effort into them than that other content really does feel like a meagre attempt to quell complaints during the recent content drought. Once you start actually looking at what went into them (especially from an ancillary resource perspective), this seems even more likely.