Guild Wars 2

The purpose of this thread is to discuss the difficulty for newcomers or like me latercomers who never hopped aboard the boat at launch to get into raids.
I’ve played this game since launch, and pre-ordered for the headstart, done pretty much everything once and had no issue getting into them. Raids on the other hand are different story…

A few days ago I decided to try to get into raids to try some content I have not experienced yet and I seem to have been met with nothing but walls and barriers and a toxic mindset of a section of the community. I do not own full ascended for every character and have various pieces on maybe 2/9 of my characters which is a barrier for some.

Again and again I’ve been met with LFG’s and forum threads and groups that require raid experience or you get kicked. To get in you need experience, to get experience you need to get in. This is true for even some “teaching” guilds. I like to play my own way and dislike being nothing but a meta clone, and in most cases my own playstyle and builds outperform the meta because I understand my proffesions more than the average joe who just copy/pastes a build and thinks they are good to go.

I don’t know about anyone elses experience trying to get into this but mine has been met with nothing but disappointment and an elitist attitude who is unfriendly to newcomers to this content or those who like to play the game for fun instead of “you must play this way or gtfo”

Thoughts on this? Or experiences of similar people in my situation?

Phoenix.1370:

I like to play my own way and dislike being nothing but a meta clone, and in most cases my own playstyle and builds outperform the meta because I understand my proffesions more than the average joe who just copy/pastes a build and thinks they are good to go.

I think I found your problem :<

Keksmuffin.1450:

Phoenix.1370:

I like to play my own way and dislike being nothing but a meta clone, and in most cases my own playstyle and builds outperform the meta because I understand my proffesions more than the average joe who just copy/pastes a build and thinks they are good to go.

I think I found your problem :<

Why should that be a problem? I’ve never had a single problem running my own builds in ANY other content and I shouldn’t have to remove the fun aspect of the game in order to play some content I have paid for. This is the problem with the attitude of people who raid.

I do not enjoy being a mindless meta drone using builds and skills I do not enjoy why should anyone be forced to play a way they don’t enjoy just to be included if they can demonstrate they can perform up to standard without?

To me that is a very toxic attitude and demonstrates a terrible view on community and gaming. “play our way or you don’t get to play at all” It is a shame raids have taken to being that.

I’ve been involved with numerous teaching guilds and honestly I have nothing but positive things to say about the majority of them. Many require no prior experience, and are often happy to let you join with exotics providing you have a good attitude and are willing to learn.

Phoenix.1370:

I like to play my own way and dislike being nothing but a meta clone, and in most cases my own playstyle and builds outperform the meta because I understand my proffesions more than the average joe who just copy/pastes a build and thinks they are good to go.

I understand what your saying here, but a mentality like this won’t get you far if you’re applying to a teaching group. They need players who are willing to function as part of a team, who will listen and adapt to whatever the situation calls for. You’re not being a clone by adopting something similar to the meta, rather you’re taking into consideration the experience and knowledge of players who have cleared the content hundreds of times and have figured out the most reliable ways to do things. I’d argue that it’s more elitist to simply assume that your way is the best way without providing any justification for your cause. After all, please keep in mind that the raids are extremely difficult for learning groups to clear, and it can be extremely demotivating to have just one person within a group that is unable to adapt.

Raids are about teamwork. If you aren’t willing to make a small sacrifice to adjust your build to make it better for the team, then maybe raids aren’t for you.

Phoenix.1370:

Keksmuffin.1450:

Phoenix.1370:

I like to play my own way and dislike being nothing but a meta clone, and in most cases my own playstyle and builds outperform the meta because I understand my proffesions more than the average joe who just copy/pastes a build and thinks they are good to go.

I think I found your problem :<

Why should that be a problem? I’ve never had a single problem running my own builds in ANY other content and I shouldn’t have to remove the fun aspect of the game in order to play some content I have paid for. This is the problem with the attitude of people who raid.

I do not enjoy being a mindless meta drone using builds and skills I do not enjoy why should anyone be forced to play a way they don’t enjoy just to be included if they can demonstrate they can perform up to standard without?

Well, raid isn’t ANY other content. It is supposed to be hard and it is to a certain degree. Raids need coordination and giving tasks to different classes. Some bosses require to do a lot of dps. I can understand, that you want to experiment with your build and you can. But raids are not the place for this, since raids are content for 10 ppl. It is not just about you. When you are in the raid, you need to be able to fullfill your roll and that often requires playing specific builds

There’s a decent amount of people in your shoes. Try creating a non-rep guild to find like minded people and go try the raids together, great tactics are already made available to you via websites and videos if you choose to use them, or if you want an authentic experience try to figure them out yourself like many experienced raiders did.

Expecting someone to teach you for no other incentive is a bit too optimistic, the experienced raiders also play this game for fun and teaching inexperienced people all the time, many of whom will not adapt or listen in order to improve, isn’t most people’s idea of fun. I started late (March) and sought out the rare players who were charitable enough to teach me. Importantly I understood that they were actively taking a hit to their entertainment a lot of the time just to help me, I was grateful rather than advocating my birth-right forcing them to teach all the time.

The main problem is that there are far fewer than 1 in 10 leaders who are somewhat new to raiding. Instead of being proactive and trying to lead they more commonly whine on forums.

AnariiUK.7409.

I’ve been met with nothing but dissapointment, hell one of them even had requirment of eternal title/vale guardian kill to even get in. How the hell is that correct?

I have no issue with fluidity in my builds I have many I’ve grown to feel comfortable with to take on various requirments. I just refuse to be a complete clone but still this isn’t good enough. If more of something else is needed I have frequently expressed fluidity in changing things up a bit but with my own flair not just copy/paste an exact one online but this for pretty much everyone is not good enough.

I get that it’s challenging content and I have no difficulty with challenging content. PvE is for the most part easy as hell and I rarely die. The problem is people exclude you without even giving you the chance to prove it.

Nokaru.7831-“small sacrifice” to me using someone elses build and skills and weapons I do not enjoy is a sacrifice too big. I cannot play a game someone elses way. Fluidity in tweaking my builds isn’t the problem as I have stated it’s the elitist attitude of you must be a complete copy of a meta build or you don’t get included.

I have no problem switching things up to fit a certain role, I do have a problem with being expected to copy/paste one from online.

Nana.9512-
You can fit a roll without using specifically everything. I’ve done it numerous times, dungeons/fractals/pvp all these I’ve had no issue fitting new rolls using my own flair and again I usually outperform meta because I’m more comfortable using my own stuff and have greater understanding. I happen to work very well in groups because I listen and can be fluid, I lose a lot when I copy/paste someone else, I perform subpar. The problem is the attitude others have taken on.

Dhorghar.5249
That attitude is the problem. I don’t have time to play 24/7 I have rl stuff to do and get on with, when raids were introduced I was between moving houses and between jobs. People like me missed the boat due to unexpected circumstances and due to issues of not our cause we are now excluded. It’s not that I wasn’t “bothered”

I understand the few that want similar experienced players. My issue is the lack of community dedicated to helping newcomers come in, instead it’s nothing but elitists rejecting people and people being excluded without a way to get their foot in the door.

I see you are defending raids, I assume your stance would be different in my shoes if you were forced to miss the boat and now cannot get in.
My attitude is fine, as I have stated I have no issue with changing builds up to meet a certain requirment. I state this to many who apparently take on newcomers but again and again this isn’t enough for them.

The Zealous Templar.3861:

There’s a decent amount of people in your shoes. Try creating a non-rep guild to find like minded people and go try the raids together, great tactics are already made available to you via websites and videos if you choose to use them, or if you want an authentic experience try to figure them out yourself like many experienced raiders did.

Expecting someone to teach you for no other incentive is a bit too optimistic, the experienced raiders also play this game for fun and teaching inexperienced people all the time, many of whom will not adapt or listen in order to improve, isn’t most people’s idea of fun. I started late (March) and sought out the rare players who were charitable enough to teach me. Importantly I understood that they were actively taking a hit to their entertainment a lot of the time just to help me, I was grateful rather than advocating my birth-right forcing them to teach all the time.

The main problem is that there are far fewer than 1 in 10 leaders who are somewhat new to raiding. Instead of being proactive and trying to lead they more commonly whine on forums.

I don’t expect anything. Where have I stated that I do? My issue is the attitude people have developed over raids. Mostly being elitist. I understand that the few that do teach do so with little to gain. my issue is there is too few and too big a gap for newcomers to get in, that provides a problem that the community and the content have created.

Too steep a mountain for newcomers to be able to join in and too little incentive or reason to include them. That is what should be fixed, either with fixing something or making it more appealing/rewarding to include newcomers.

I am not “whining” on forums. I am stating an issue I have experienced with content in the game. and my experience with people and community in this. Sure I could do it myself, and chances are I will, it still does not change the fact that some other people who will come after me will run into the same barriers and elitist attitudes.

Shouldn’t something that is clearly detrimental to some players being able to experience content be fixed?

Your build MAY BE viable but I’m 100% sure that your build dont out perform meta build, there are a lot of experienced guilds pushing for world records on clear times, and if your build outperformed metas they would be using it ( dont think nobody never tried it, its not like there is infinite builds ).
And if your wrong ( you never cleared a raid with your build so you cant give any proof ) you will waste hours of 9 other people. So you are the one being selfish with this attitude, there is nothing wrong with off-meta builds if you form your own party with 9 other people that want to try new builds.
But for people that want to clear the raids before next reset (everyone has limited playtime), meta builds is the better way to ensure it.
So you have two options, make your own group ( and you may find that you are wrong after wiping for hours with no sucess) or just change your build.
But if your build dont do enough damage to clear a raid boss, please dont make a post after asking for nerfs because raids are too hard.

Phoenix.1370:

Keksmuffin.1450:

Phoenix.1370:

I like to play my own way and dislike being nothing but a meta clone, and in most cases my own playstyle and builds outperform the meta because I understand my proffesions more than the average joe who just copy/pastes a build and thinks they are good to go.

I think I found your problem :<

Why should that be a problem? I’ve never had a single problem running my own builds in ANY other content .

and now you encountered the raids or should i say not encountered the raids. raids are still content as far as my humble average joe opinion goes. maybe i’m wrong. raids may not be content.

raid is much more difficult then any other pve content my friend. if you set one foot inside you would know that.

problem is: you entitled opinion may and probably will cost your team to wipe for 3 hours on VG let alone anything else (if you find a party ever). one person messes up, everyone wipes. and don’t forget about boss timers.

OnizukaBR.8537:

Your build MAY BE viable but I’m 100% sure that your build dont out perform meta build, there are a lot of experienced guilds pushing for world records on clear times, and if your build outperformed metas they would be using it ( dont think nobody never tried it, its not like there is infinite builds ).
And if your wrong ( you never cleared a raid with your build so you cant give any proof ) you will waste hours of 9 other people. So you are the one being selfish with this attitude, there is nothing wrong with off-meta builds if you form your own party with 9 other people that want to try new builds.
But for people that want to clear the raids before next reset (everyone has limited playtime), meta builds is the better way to ensure it.
So you have two options, make your own group ( and you may find that you are wrong after wiping for hours with no sucess) or just change your build.
But if your build dont do enough damage to clear a raid boss, please dont make a post after asking for nerfs because raids are too hard.

I say that I outperform meta because I understand my build more and my proffesion more. In my experience especially in pvp, those that just copy/paste metas majority of the time they have no clue how to properly use them and no experience with the proffesion and thus are easy to kill. What matters is the skill of the individual using the build, not usually the build itself. It helps but not essential in my experience. Meta is “best” on paper, but in the hands of an amateur it’s no better than anything else.

Sure I’ve not tried but in my experience with every other content and world meta events and content and dungeons and fractals I’ve yet to run into an issue where my builds don’t perform up to standard or can’t keep up with others in my groups.

I have no issue with challenging content, and would never ask for a nerf. I enjoy challenging things and if I don’t happen to be performing well I adapt. I’ve played many many games that are challenging and placed limitations on myself to make it moreso and I don’t complain. Again I do understand where people do come from in wanting to do content with the least amount speedbumps. My only issue is the attitudes I’ve ran into of people running this content and the little support there is for new people to get into it.

Phoenix.1370:

I have no issue with fluidity in my builds I have many I’ve grown to feel comfortable with to take on various requirments. I just refuse to be a complete clone but still this isn’t good enough. If more of something else is needed I have frequently expressed fluidity in changing things up a bit but with my own flair not just copy/paste an exact one online but this for pretty much everyone is not good enough.

One thing: If you refuse to play a build just because it is listed as a good build somewhere is the opposite of knowing your class perfectly. I don’t bother to look on websites for builds either, but if i do to compare my build with those online, they are mostly 100% identical because that build is the best in that situation. That still does not mean that I’m a clone or sth. like that. If you choose a build by your own it is not bad in every case, but if it differes in many points from the required, you may not have understood what is needed in that situation.

Tornupto.2304:

Phoenix.1370:

I have no issue with fluidity in my builds I have many I’ve grown to feel comfortable with to take on various requirments. I just refuse to be a complete clone but still this isn’t good enough. If more of something else is needed I have frequently expressed fluidity in changing things up a bit but with my own flair not just copy/paste an exact one online but this for pretty much everyone is not good enough.

One thing: If you refuse to play a build just because it is listed as a good build somewhere is the opposite of knowing your class perfectly. I don’t bother to look on websites for builds either, but if i do to compare my build with those online, they are mostly 100% identical because that build is the best in that situation. That still does not mean that I’m a clone or sth. like that. If you choose a build by your own it is not bad in every case, but if it differes in many points from the required, you may not have understood what is needed in that situation.

You COMPLETELY missed the point of why I don’t use them.
I don’t use them because they are not fun. I don’t refuse to be some sort of gw2 hipster. To me they are not fun to use, specific weapons are not fun to use, specific elites or utilities I dislike using and are no fun to me.

I understand my builds and in a lot of cases it’s the same, maybe slight variations. Necro for example, I was using a variation of a well build for pvp I created myself before it was even up on any meta websites. it was mostly identical, again I do understand my proffesions. I just like using things that are fun to me. if a build or weapon set or utilities are not fun I am not going to use them. It would be negative on my gaming experience.

Phoenix.1370:

OnizukaBR.8537:

Your build MAY BE viable but I’m 100% sure that your build dont out perform meta build, there are a lot of experienced guilds pushing for world records on clear times, and if your build outperformed metas they would be using it ( dont think nobody never tried it, its not like there is infinite builds ).
And if your wrong ( you never cleared a raid with your build so you cant give any proof ) you will waste hours of 9 other people. So you are the one being selfish with this attitude, there is nothing wrong with off-meta builds if you form your own party with 9 other people that want to try new builds.
But for people that want to clear the raids before next reset (everyone has limited playtime), meta builds is the better way to ensure it.
So you have two options, make your own group ( and you may find that you are wrong after wiping for hours with no sucess) or just change your build.
But if your build dont do enough damage to clear a raid boss, please dont make a post after asking for nerfs because raids are too hard.

I say that I outperform meta because I understand my build more and my proffesion more. In my experience especially in pvp, those that just copy/paste metas majority of the time they have no clue how to properly use them and no experience with the proffesion and thus are easy to kill. What matters is the skill of the individual using the build, not usually the build itself. It helps but not essential in my experience. Meta is “best” on paper, but in the hands of an amateur it’s no better than anything else.

Sure I’ve not tried but in my experience with every other content and world meta events and content and dungeons and fractals I’ve yet to run into an issue where my builds don’t perform up to standard or can’t keep up with others in my groups.

I have no issue with challenging content, and would never ask for a nerf. I enjoy challenging things and if I don’t happen to be performing well I adapt. I’ve played many many games that are challenging and placed limitations on myself to make it moreso and I don’t complain. Again I do understand where people do come from in wanting to do content with the least amount speedbumps. My only issue is the attitudes I’ve ran into of people running this content and the little support there is for new people to get into it.

Could you please tell us what builds you are using ? Because without proofs, we won’t trust you…

Phoenix.1370:

The Zealous Templar.3861:

There’s a decent amount of people in your shoes. Try creating a non-rep guild to find like minded people and go try the raids together, great tactics are already made available to you via websites and videos if you choose to use them, or if you want an authentic experience try to figure them out yourself like many experienced raiders did.

Expecting someone to teach you for no other incentive is a bit too optimistic, the experienced raiders also play this game for fun and teaching inexperienced people all the time, many of whom will not adapt or listen in order to improve, isn’t most people’s idea of fun. I started late (March) and sought out the rare players who were charitable enough to teach me. Importantly I understood that they were actively taking a hit to their entertainment a lot of the time just to help me, I was grateful rather than advocating my birth-right forcing them to teach all the time.

The main problem is that there are far fewer than 1 in 10 leaders who are somewhat new to raiding. Instead of being proactive and trying to lead they more commonly whine on forums.

I don’t expect anything. Where have I stated that I do? My issue is the attitude people have developed over raids. Mostly being elitist. I understand that the few that do teach do so with little to gain. my issue is there is too few and too big a gap for newcomers to get in, that provides a problem that the community and the content have created.

Too steep a mountain for newcomers to be able to join in and too little incentive or reason to include them. That is what should be fixed, either with fixing something or making it more appealing/rewarding to include newcomers.

I am not “whining” on forums. I am stating an issue I have experienced with content in the game. and my experience with people and community in this. Sure I could do it myself, and chances are I will, it still does not change the fact that some other people who will come after me will run into the same barriers and elitist attitudes.

Shouldn’t something that is clearly detrimental to some players being able to experience content be fixed?

Your entire post is complaining about how the ‘elitists’ don’t want to either teach you in a training run or simply carry you through the raid whilst you try learn yourself (btw anyone asking for a requirement for anything in the world is an elitist by your definition so it’s not much of an insult). It basically epitomises the problem, the majority of new/late raiders have attitudes like yours expecting someone else to lead and organise meaning nobody is leading and organising.

Phoenix.1370:

I’ve been met with nothing but dissapointment, hell one of them even had requirment of eternal title/vale guardian kill to even get in. How the hell is that correct?

Their guild, their requirements. I’d imagine a training guild looking for eternal titles is one which is hoping to push onwards into wing 2/3. They could have been teaching wing 1 for months already, so they’re looking for members which don’t require further teaching there.

Phoenix.1370:

I have no issue with fluidity in my builds I have many I’ve grown to feel comfortable with to take on various requirments. I just refuse to be a complete clone but still this isn’t good enough. If more of something else is needed I have frequently expressed fluidity in changing things up a bit but with my own flair not just copy/paste an exact one online but this for pretty much everyone is not good enough.

The builds you see online are excellent starting points for players that are new to raiding. Once you become more experienced and knowledgable then you’ll start to understand what changes can be made to benefit a specific group or help at a certain boss. Adding your own flair to a build is meaningless unless you can provide solid justification as to why you’ve changed that particular thing.

I’m happy to discuss builds with you if you’d be interested in providing what you’re currently using. Sometimes, players such as yourself have excellent justification for running off-meta builds and it’s just a matter of communicating that to the raid leader that can make the difference.

Phoenix.1370:

I get that it’s challenging content and I have no difficulty with challenging content. PvE is for the most part easy as hell and I rarely die. The problem is people exclude you without even giving you the chance to prove it.

Training guilds usually get more applications than they can possibly accept, so it’s always a matter of choosing the applicants that give the best first impressions.

Hypairion.9210

I’m not demanding you trust me or believe me. I honestly don’t care on that front.

The whole point of this thread is discussions on why raids are difficult for new/latecomers to get into, and very little incentive to be included in along with a huge gap and barriers people like me have to get past to even start. Which isn’t helped by elitist attitudes and very little incentive for newcomers to be included in groups.

Phoenix.1370:

You COMPLETELY missed the point of why I don’t use them.
I don’t use them because they are not fun. I don’t refuse to be some sort of gw2 hipster. To me they are not fun to use, specific weapons are not fun to use, specific elites or utilities I dislike using and are no fun to me.

I understand my builds and in a lot of cases it’s the same, maybe slight variations. Necro for example, I was using a variation of a well build for pvp I created myself before it was even up on any meta websites. it was mostly identical, again I do understand my proffesions. I just like using things that are fun to me. if a build or weapon set or utilities are not fun I am not going to use them. It would be negative on my gaming experience.

Can you give us an example of what builds you’re running when you attempt raids? As long as a build makes sense is generally what I look for. If someone is running a different build but is still performing the mechanics and doing what his class needs to do, pugs usually don’t care.

Phoenix.1370:

I say that I outperform meta because I understand my build more and my proffesion more. In my experience especially in pvp, those that just copy/paste metas majority of the time they have no clue how to properly use them and no experience with the proffesion and thus are easy to kill. What matters is the skill of the individual using the build, not usually the build itself. It helps but not essential in my experience. Meta is “best” on paper, but in the hands of an amateur it’s no better than anything else.

I wouldn’t say you’re outperforming a meta build; I would say you’re saying you’re outperforming players. Could some builds be out there that perform better and they just haven’t caught on yet? Sure. It would be nice if you posted what builds you were running that you’re stating can do so well but pugs are just disregarding.

The training guilds that I’ve been helping out with don’t really have many skill requirements beyond a desire to learn and improve. Some have ascended weapon mininums. I ask for people to just have a minimum of exotics with stats and runes that make sense.

Enko.6123:

Phoenix.1370:

You COMPLETELY missed the point of why I don’t use them.
I don’t use them because they are not fun. I don’t refuse to be some sort of gw2 hipster. To me they are not fun to use, specific weapons are not fun to use, specific elites or utilities I dislike using and are no fun to me.

I understand my builds and in a lot of cases it’s the same, maybe slight variations. Necro for example, I was using a variation of a well build for pvp I created myself before it was even up on any meta websites. it was mostly identical, again I do understand my proffesions. I just like using things that are fun to me. if a build or weapon set or utilities are not fun I am not going to use them. It would be negative on my gaming experience.

Can you give us an example of what builds you’re running when you attempt raids? As long as a build makes sense is generally what I look for. If someone is running a different build but is still performing the mechanics and doing what his class needs to do, pugs usually don’t care.

If it’s just a different build with slight variations, yes who care in a pug raid. But if I see a riffle war or à gs mesmer because, you know, he thinks they’re fun weapons, that’s not the same. Or maybe he dislikes chrono and prefer vanilla mesmer..

Phoenix.1370:

OnizukaBR.8537:

Your build MAY BE viable but I’m 100% sure that your build dont out perform meta build, there are a lot of experienced guilds pushing for world records on clear times, and if your build outperformed metas they would be using it ( dont think nobody never tried it, its not like there is infinite builds ).
And if your wrong ( you never cleared a raid with your build so you cant give any proof ) you will waste hours of 9 other people. So you are the one being selfish with this attitude, there is nothing wrong with off-meta builds if you form your own party with 9 other people that want to try new builds.
But for people that want to clear the raids before next reset (everyone has limited playtime), meta builds is the better way to ensure it.
So you have two options, make your own group ( and you may find that you are wrong after wiping for hours with no sucess) or just change your build.
But if your build dont do enough damage to clear a raid boss, please dont make a post after asking for nerfs because raids are too hard.

I say that I outperform meta because I understand my build more and my proffesion more. In my experience especially in pvp, those that just copy/paste metas majority of the time they have no clue how to properly use them and no experience with the proffesion and thus are easy to kill. What matters is the skill of the individual using the build, not usually the build itself. It helps but not essential in my experience. Meta is “best” on paper, but in the hands of an amateur it’s no better than anything else.

Sure I’ve not tried but in my experience with every other content and world meta events and content and dungeons and fractals I’ve yet to run into an issue where my builds don’t perform up to standard or can’t keep up with others in my groups.

I have no issue with challenging content, and would never ask for a nerf. I enjoy challenging things and if I don’t happen to be performing well I adapt. I’ve played many many games that are challenging and placed limitations on myself to make it moreso and I don’t complain. Again I do understand where people do come from in wanting to do content with the least amount speedbumps. My only issue is the attitudes I’ve ran into of people running this content and the little support there is for new people to get into it.

Your build might “outperform” the meta in certain situations, but that’s not the case in raids!
You can run anything in any other contents, but raids are not (mostly) faceroll content, they require a lot of teamwork and coordination, every class/build in the group has a purpose!
For example: if you are a Warrior not running the PS trait, you will probably do more DPS than a PS War, but you wont give might, therefore you are useless to the team.

So you might think that you “outperform” the meta, but since you lack experience in raids and probably don’t know every role needed, your build might as well turn to be completely useless or even a shot in the knee for the team.
The meta builds are not just a copy paste, they give you a general template of what usually fits best, and should be adjusted according to encounter and team composition.
May I ask what is that build you are using? that might help explain the situation a bit easier.

When you learn every possible mechanic, class role, and group compositions & prove your build to be more effective than others, then you have the right to complain.

While it’s true that there are many groups that ask for experience on LFG, there are plenty of others who don’t, you just have to look.

AnariiUK.7409

I get that. I don’t think I’ve seen a single “teaching” not even have Vale Guardian kill as a requirment for joining..Isn’t that counter productive for someone completely new? Kinda like going to college but to get into your first class you need a degree in that specific field.

I get that, I’ve always used my own, and I’ve tweaked over the years to adapt to changes. The problem is like I said before, some people mindlessly copy/paste meta and perform subpar because they lack understanding of their chosen proffesion.
I am far from perfect but I atleast grasp an understanding of synergy to make a viable build to fit a situation without meta and using weapons and utilities I do actually enjoy, I play revenant primary which makes utilities/elites kinda meaningless for the most part but still.
The problem is you CAN’T communicate that to raid leaders because of elitist attitudes and immediate dismissal if you do not have a clone of meta. THAT is my problem. The attitude and the community around raids makes that difficult.

I get that, which is part of the problem, too few willing to train because of very little incentive to do so and too many people in my shoes trying to get in. Which is my whole point.

Okay…

1. No, it’s not impossible for a newcomer. I’ve read stories about people who just started raiding every time. And there are teaching runs everywhere, especially if you’re playing on NA. They are the perfect entry point for newcomers. And if they require killproof and stuff, they’re probably not teaching runs.

2. Yes, some (most?) teaching guild will require meta build. But cloning the meta build isn’t impossible for newcomer

Phoenix.1370:

Why should that be a problem?

People have spent months experimenting with compositions and builds to discover the optimal playstyle (in the most general case). The builds have variations for different encounters, but beyond that, the optimal setup has been established.

The optimal builds and compositions are about finding the right balance of high damage and utility, and maximizing the amount of party wide boons and buffs.

You coming in and saying “my non-meta build is way better than yours” is a slap in the face to all of that effort, and considering you don’t have much raiding experience with actual encounters (by the sounds of it), you don’t know the justification behind why certain skill and trait choices are made.

Since this came up in a previous thread, here’s my experience as a fairly latecomer to raiding:

I didn’t PUG, I sought out raid guilds from the get-go (I knew it would be futile to attempt to PUG). The first guild I joined was with some friends, but they didn’t invite me into their group due to lack of experience. One jokingly told me to “gitgud”. The next guild I joined was more willing to take me on learning raids (effectively PUGs formed within the guild – 4-5 experienced players, rest inexperienced). Two weeks of that, and the guild that originally didn’t invite me to raids? They started inviting me to their raid groups, and consider me as part of their static group now, even going as far as to grab me quickly before any other group does.
And it kinda snowballed from there. Currently have three potential statics to raid with.
I occasionally PUGed at reset, but wasn’t asked for LIs. We cleared SV in 45 minutes during one of those runs (reset is usually the best time to find good PUGs). At the time I PUGed, I had 33 LI and had a Matthias kill.

Enko.6123

discussion of my own builds is not the purpose of this thread, it’s not even really about me specifically, the whole point is the community around raids and the lack of support/incentive for newer people wanting to join in.

If I wanted advice on builds I would go to the correct forum and post something there on it. Semi dismissing it because it is kinda off topic. However while taking a very quick look online the build im currently using is very similar to the raid “meta” for revenant which is dps/support some trait differences and I use shiro more than dwarf. This I built myself without even looking up this “meta”.

I agree, I’m outperforming players, which isn’t that a good thing? If a build I’m using is outperforming someone next to me in a raid who is running of meta, then surely this isn’t a problem?

Then I haven’t seen your teaching post. Everyone I’ve ran into and contacted have ridiculous and unrealistic requirments for a newcomer to it.

LegACy.1296:

Okay…

1. No, it’s not impossible for a newcomer. I’ve read stories about people who just started raiding every time. And there are teaching runs everywhere, especially if you’re playing on NA. They are the perfect entry point for newcomers. And if they require killproof and stuff, they’re probably not teaching runs.

2. Yes, some (most?) teaching guild will require meta build. But cloning the meta build isn’t impossible for newcomer

I am EU which makes it more restrictive. I am not abandoning my friends and others I play with simply to make raids easier.

Funny considering they state specifically they are teaching guilds for newcomers to raids yet still list it as requirments.

I wouldn’t care if cloning a meta build was free. I wouldn’t do it simply because they in most cases are not fun to me. Again you seem to miss my point.

Rashy.4165:

Phoenix.1370:

Why should that be a problem?

People have spent months experimenting with compositions and builds to discover the optimal playstyle (in the most general case). The builds have variations for different encounters, but beyond that, the optimal setup has been established.

The optimal builds and compositions are about finding the right balance of high damage and utility, and maximizing the amount of party wide boons and buffs.

You coming in and saying “my non-meta build is way better than yours” is a slap in the face to all of that effort, and considering you don’t have much raiding experience with actual encounters (by the sounds of it), you don’t know the justification behind why certain skill and trait choices are made.

Since this came up in a previous thread, here’s my experience as a fairly latecomer to raiding:

I didn’t PUG, I sought out raid guilds from the get-go (I knew it would be futile to attempt to PUG). The first guild I joined was with some friends, but they didn’t invite me into their group due to lack of experience. One jokingly told me to “gitgud”. The next guild I joined was more willing to take me on learning raids (effectively PUGs formed within the guild – 4-5 experienced players, rest inexperienced). Two weeks of that, and the guild that originally didn’t invite me to raids? They started inviting me to their raid groups, and consider me as part of their static group now, even going as far as to grab me quickly before any other group does.
And it kinda snowballed from there. Currently have three potential statics to raid with.
I occasionally PUGed at reset, but wasn’t asked for LIs. We cleared SV in 45 minutes during one of those runs (reset is usually the best time to find good PUGs). At the time I PUGed, I had 33 LI and had a Matthias kill.

I’d say you got lucky, I have not had that experience, just complete rejection from everyone I’ve attempted to contact.

Again, its not saying mine are “better” its saying I’m more comfortable using my own and thus I perform better because I feel more at ease and comfort using things I’m familiar with. And experience in the build USUALLY lets me outperform the average joe using a copy/paste build and little to no experience.

Sure the build I currently use on some proffesions might not work as well in raids, and in that instance I’d take what I’d learned in the death and work on a new build that fits the gaps where I was lacking. The problem is I cannot do that when I cannot get a foot in the door to try.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4pe4jy/can_we_get_a_directory_of_guilds_that_teach_raids/

You performing better at a build doesn’t make the build objectively better than another. If anything, the build itself could be severely kitten to the point where even a below average player playing the optimal build is better than you playing your build comfortably.

Practicing the optimal build is the starting point. If changes need to be made to compensate for player skill, only then will it need to be made. Compensating for player skill from the get-go breeds bad habits which will be difficult to shake off in the future.

And if you actually read my post: I was also met by rejection initially by people who I thought were friends, so I doubled my efforts to find a guild that didn’t reject me. I didn’t attempt to join just those two guilds, there were several more in between.

Hm, some guildmates and I offered a teaching run for VG last week, no requirements… it was hard to fill it up. In the end we killed VG in the second try, since most players were just new to raids, but had exp in VG.
What I am trying to say is, there are many training or teaching runs in the LFG lately (not always, but I see them often). So for new players to get started, there is this possibility to gain exp and learn mechanics. For really getting into raid, it’s best to join a guild/raidguild.
PUGs are another option, but it can be very frustrating sometimes.

Well if you are playing revenant you have a really important job in VG, that is keep face of nature 100% of the time, so the chrono can have 100% boon duration to tank. Then if you use shiro and waste your resource bar, you cant maintain facet so you are hurting your party.
Your other job is help with breakbar, so if you like using shield for example because its fun,then you are again just hurting your team, as there is 0 reason for you to use both of shield skills.
If your stats that you dont mention have Toughness, again you are making the chrono kitten himself because now he needs to equip even more toughness to hold aggro.
So its not a matter of build but a matter of you dont want to play the role that is needed, and want to everyone change their build so they can afford 1 revenant that want play his selfish way.

Nokaru.7831:

Raids are about teamwork. If you aren’t willing to make a small sacrifice to adjust your build to make it better for the team, then maybe raids aren’t for you.

This in a nutshell.

I lead a mostly inexperienced group of guildmates through wing 2, took maybe 6 total failures at sloth for them to learn and me to notice some inconsistencies with players builds and my expectations which caused some wipes.

Point is, if you think you somehow know better odds are you don’t. If you think your build is somehow magically better or more suited for the fight odds are it’s not. Work with your group if you want to see a better chance of acceptance and a much higher chance at completion.

OnizukaBR.8537:

Well if you are playing revenant you have a really important job in VG, that is keep face of nature 100% of the time, so the chrono can have 100% boon duration to tank. Then if you use shiro and waste your resource bar, you cant maintain facet so you are hurting your party.
Your other job is help with breakbar, so if you like using shield for example because its fun,then you are again just hurting your team, as there is 0 reason for you to use both of shield skills.
If your stats that you dont mention have Toughness, again you are making the chrono kitten himself because now he needs to equip even more toughness to hold aggro.
So its not a matter of build but a matter of you dont want to play the role that is needed, and want to everyone change their build so they can afford 1 revenant that want play his selfish way.

Sigh you don’t understand a thing it seems. I’m not explaining myself further as I have repeated myself MANY times now. I ain’t getting through to you. Everything you said there is completely irrelevant.

It seems this thread is completly derailing and turning into “what you are doing wrong” THIS ISN’T ABOUT ME this isn’t about me specifically and my builds, again I’d post on revenant forum to discuss if it was.

Please get back on topic.

This topic was about the difficulty of newcomers getting into it, regardless of builds.

There is too many barriers and too few support for newcomers getting in, this has been my experience for atleast a week and a half now.

And the attitude such as this as hostile to newcomers. This may not be the experience of all, but it certainly has me. Requirments for most entry level is ridiculous and unrealistic and the few training guilds are very hostile/toxic in their attitudes. This has been my experience. That is all.

Phoenix.1370:

OnizukaBR.8537:

Well if you are playing revenant you have a really important job in VG, that is keep face of nature 100% of the time, so the chrono can have 100% boon duration to tank. Then if you use shiro and waste your resource bar, you cant maintain facet so you are hurting your party.
Your other job is help with breakbar, so if you like using shield for example because its fun,then you are again just hurting your team, as there is 0 reason for you to use both of shield skills.
If your stats that you dont mention have Toughness, again you are making the chrono kitten himself because now he needs to equip even more toughness to hold aggro.
So its not a matter of build but a matter of you dont want to play the role that is needed, and want to everyone change their build so they can afford 1 revenant that want play his selfish way.

Sigh you don’t understand a thing it seems. I’m not explaining myself further as I have repeated myself MANY times now. I ain’t getting through to you. Everything you said there is completely irrelevant.

What is sure if that with the attitude you’re showing to us, I wouldn’t want you in my training session. Willingness to adapt and good attitude are what matter in a training session, and so far you’ve just shown us the contrary…

We discussing your build, because its the reason you find this “barrier” to join a raid group. If you used the meta one, you would have already killed VG and never created this topic.
So its impossible to discuss your barrier without relationating it with your build.
Newcomers with meta build no barrier or any issue.
Newcomers with snowflake build = barrier.

Hypairion.9210:

Phoenix.1370:

OnizukaBR.8537:

Well if you are playing revenant you have a really important job in VG, that is keep face of nature 100% of the time, so the chrono can have 100% boon duration to tank. Then if you use shiro and waste your resource bar, you cant maintain facet so you are hurting your party.
Your other job is help with breakbar, so if you like using shield for example because its fun,then you are again just hurting your team, as there is 0 reason for you to use both of shield skills.
If your stats that you dont mention have Toughness, again you are making the chrono kitten himself because now he needs to equip even more toughness to hold aggro.
So its not a matter of build but a matter of you dont want to play the role that is needed, and want to everyone change their build so they can afford 1 revenant that want play his selfish way.

Sigh you don’t understand a thing it seems. I’m not explaining myself further as I have repeated myself MANY times now. I ain’t getting through to you. Everything you said there is completely irrelevant.

What is sure if that with the attitude you’re showing to us, I wouldn’t want you in my training session. Willingness to adapt and good attitude are what matter in a training session, and so far you’ve just shown us the contrary…

Exactly my point. Which is why I will not respond to you any longer as you clearly did not read a word I said.

You’re likening players who only want the meta builds to elitists.

I’ve had this conversation way too many times in the past before. I’m not having it again.

There’s a reason why the meta builds are meta. People have already explained that to you in this topic. Your refusal to accept that is your problem and makes you a lousy team player (big surprise as to why you’ve been met with resistance to letting you “prove yourself”). You want to prove your worth? Start with fulfilling your role in the team (for which the builds are designed) and then convince your group that you can still stay optimal with your own build choices.

Getting into raiding is a question of having the right attitude. Without the right attitude, you won’t succeed. Simple as that.

Phoenix.1370:

It seems this thread is completly derailing and turning into “what you are doing wrong” THIS ISN’T ABOUT ME this isn’t about me specifically and my builds, again I’d post on revenant forum to discuss if it was.

Please get back on topic.

This topic was about the difficulty of newcomers getting into it, regardless of builds.

There is too many barriers and too few support for newcomers getting in, this has been my experience for atleast a week and a half now.

And the attitude such as this as hostile to newcomers. This may not be the experience of all, but it certainly has me. Requirments for most entry level is ridiculous and unrealistic and the few training guilds are very hostile/toxic in their attitudes. This has been my experience. That is all.

BUT THIS IS ABOUT YOU, you opened this thread!
You feel that there are barriers, but the reasons you showed in this thread are not! That’s why people are trying to show you why you might be feeling those “barriers”, but you refuse to listen.
Your attitude is bad, That is all.

OnizukaBR.8537:

We discussing your build, because its the reason you find this “barrier” to join a raid group. If you used the meta one, you would have already killed VG and never created this topic.
So its impossible to discuss your barrier without relationating it with your build.
Newcomers with meta build no barrier or any issue.
Newcomers with snowflake build = barrier.

Again THIS ISN’T ABOUT ME and my build or lack of desire to be a mindless drone is not the ONLY issue, is that so difficult to understand?

The issue is BUILD and VG requirments ASCENDED FULL and EXPERIENCE REQUIRED and ELITIST attitude etc.

All these are barriers I have run into, NOT ONLY MY BLOODY BUILD.

Please, if you insist on sticking on my build only further I will simply dismiss you as you are clearly not reading. Adaptation is not an issue, ability to change my builds is not an issue. I just refuse to be a mindless clone playing in a way that isn’t fun. I’d find a way to play in a way I enjoy while still fitting a roll. It’s elitist attitudes like I’m seeing that is the issue.

I just wanna say that I got my first insight from matthias and we 1 shot him (My guildies were teaching me raid and they took me to matthias first, I probably got carried so hard though). I learnt all the mechanic of bosses in 2 weeks. Actually learning raid is far easier than learning the old fractal 50 when they were still hard.

Just need to find a group of people that wanna take newcomer and show the ropes.

Coconut.7082:

Phoenix.1370:

It seems this thread is completly derailing and turning into “what you are doing wrong” THIS ISN’T ABOUT ME this isn’t about me specifically and my builds, again I’d post on revenant forum to discuss if it was.

Please get back on topic.

This topic was about the difficulty of newcomers getting into it, regardless of builds.

There is too many barriers and too few support for newcomers getting in, this has been my experience for atleast a week and a half now.

And the attitude such as this as hostile to newcomers. This may not be the experience of all, but it certainly has me. Requirments for most entry level is ridiculous and unrealistic and the few training guilds are very hostile/toxic in their attitudes. This has been my experience. That is all.

BUT THIS IS ABOUT YOU, you opened this thread!
You feel that there are barriers, but the reasons you showed in this thread are not! That’s why people are trying to show you why you might be feeling those “barriers”, but you refuse to listen.
Your attitude is bad, That is all.

This thread is about my experience and the experience of others attempting this content. You clearly lack the understanding of that.

Phoenix.1370:

Coconut.7082:

Phoenix.1370:

It seems this thread is completly derailing and turning into “what you are doing wrong” THIS ISN’T ABOUT ME this isn’t about me specifically and my builds, again I’d post on revenant forum to discuss if it was.

Please get back on topic.

This topic was about the difficulty of newcomers getting into it, regardless of builds.

There is too many barriers and too few support for newcomers getting in, this has been my experience for atleast a week and a half now.

And the attitude such as this as hostile to newcomers. This may not be the experience of all, but it certainly has me. Requirments for most entry level is ridiculous and unrealistic and the few training guilds are very hostile/toxic in their attitudes. This has been my experience. That is all.

BUT THIS IS ABOUT YOU, you opened this thread!
You feel that there are barriers, but the reasons you showed in this thread are not! That’s why people are trying to show you why you might be feeling those “barriers”, but you refuse to listen.
Your attitude is bad, That is all.

This thread is about my experience and the experience of others attempting this content. You clearly lack the understanding of that.

Your experience is caused by your attitude. You clearly lack the understanding of that.

Look, I’m on EU, I opened the LFG tab, and this is what I see.
Why don’t you give the circled one a try

LegACy.1296:

Look, I’m on EU, I opened the LFG tab, and this is what I see.
Why don’t you give the circled one a try

First I’ve ever seen in about a week and a half of anything even close to that. Which is my point, geting into it is difficult for newcomers and opportunities are few and far between.

Raids are not impossible for newcomers. I joined a raiding guild about 3 weeks ago that has both NA and EU training runs and moderate requirements to join and learn: no experience required, exotic gear minimum (and not even necessary to have fully meta gear as long as it is close) and the right build for your profession. I learned my role and got 2 different boss kills in my first 2 weeks of being in the guild. So if they would accept a newcomer with no kills previously, I would hardly call them “elitist” (not to mention that most of the other players had no kills previously either), and I would hardly say raids are impossible for newcomers.

Whether it is fun or not is up to you. For me, following the meta approach was not a problem, since it was actually fun to try different builds and tactics that I never used before, and achieving the kills finally made it worthwhile.

Coconut.7082:

Phoenix.1370:

Coconut.7082:

Phoenix.1370:

It seems this thread is completly derailing and turning into “what you are doing wrong” THIS ISN’T ABOUT ME this isn’t about me specifically and my builds, again I’d post on revenant forum to discuss if it was.

Please get back on topic.

This topic was about the difficulty of newcomers getting into it, regardless of builds.

There is too many barriers and too few support for newcomers getting in, this has been my experience for atleast a week and a half now.

And the attitude such as this as hostile to newcomers. This may not be the experience of all, but it certainly has me. Requirments for most entry level is ridiculous and unrealistic and the few training guilds are very hostile/toxic in their attitudes. This has been my experience. That is all.

BUT THIS IS ABOUT YOU, you opened this thread!
You feel that there are barriers, but the reasons you showed in this thread are not! That’s why people are trying to show you why you might be feeling those “barriers”, but you refuse to listen.
Your attitude is bad, That is all.

This thread is about my experience and the experience of others attempting this content. You clearly lack the understanding of that.

Your experience is caused by your attitude. You clearly lack the understanding of that.

My experience is caused by the attitude of others. You don’t see it because you seem to be one of those “others”

In most cases where build is an issue it’s “my way or the highway” which is hardly productive.

The attitude I seem to see and the theme seems to be “teach what to think, not how to think” when the opposite should be true.

Winespring Brother.2970:

Raids are not impossible for newcomers. I joined a raiding guild about 3 weeks ago that has both NA and EU training runs and moderate requirements to join and learn: no experience required, exotic gear minimum (and not even necessary to have fully meta gear as long as it is close) and the right build for your profession. I learned my role and got 2 different boss kills in my first 2 weeks of being in the guild. So if they would accept a newcomer with no kills previously, I would hardly call them “elitist” (not to mention that most of the other players had no kills previously either), and I would hardly say raids are impossible for newcomers.

Whether it is fun or not is up to you. For me, following the meta approach was not a problem, since it was actually fun to try different builds and tactics that I never used before, and achieving the kills finally made it worthwhile.

“right build for your profession” and “as long as it’s close” while those do seem lesser burdens, I still see few and far betweens and cannot for the life of me find a guild/group in the forums that do teach without these requirments and demand for complete meta clone. I DO understand why people think it’s necessary but I do not. And feel that people can perform up to standard without, assuming their build can be demonstrated to perform. The problem is, the mindset of those who lead do not give that chance, if you deviate from meta you are rejected.

Phoenix.1370:

Coconut.7082:

Phoenix.1370:

Coconut.7082:

Phoenix.1370:

It seems this thread is completly derailing and turning into “what you are doing wrong” THIS ISN’T ABOUT ME this isn’t about me specifically and my builds, again I’d post on revenant forum to discuss if it was.

Please get back on topic.

This topic was about the difficulty of newcomers getting into it, regardless of builds.

There is too many barriers and too few support for newcomers getting in, this has been my experience for atleast a week and a half now.

And the attitude such as this as hostile to newcomers. This may not be the experience of all, but it certainly has me. Requirments for most entry level is ridiculous and unrealistic and the few training guilds are very hostile/toxic in their attitudes. This has been my experience. That is all.

BUT THIS IS ABOUT YOU, you opened this thread!
You feel that there are barriers, but the reasons you showed in this thread are not! That’s why people are trying to show you why you might be feeling those “barriers”, but you refuse to listen.
Your attitude is bad, That is all.

This thread is about my experience and the experience of others attempting this content. You clearly lack the understanding of that.

Your experience is caused by your attitude. You clearly lack the understanding of that.

My experience is caused by the attitude of others. You don’t see it because you seem to be one of those “others”

In most cases where build is an issue it’s “my way or the highway” which is hardly productive.

The attitude I seem to see and the theme seems to be “teach what to think, not how to think” when the opposite should be true.

Feel free to make your own squad and impose whatever rules you want. If too scared, deal with other people’s rules. Simple really.

The Zealous Templar.3861:

Phoenix.1370:

Coconut.7082:

Phoenix.1370:

Coconut.7082:

Phoenix.1370:

It seems this thread is completly derailing and turning into “what you are doing wrong” THIS ISN’T ABOUT ME this isn’t about me specifically and my builds, again I’d post on revenant forum to discuss if it was.

Please get back on topic.

This topic was about the difficulty of newcomers getting into it, regardless of builds.

There is too many barriers and too few support for newcomers getting in, this has been my experience for atleast a week and a half now.

And the attitude such as this as hostile to newcomers. This may not be the experience of all, but it certainly has me. Requirments for most entry level is ridiculous and unrealistic and the few training guilds are very hostile/toxic in their attitudes. This has been my experience. That is all.

BUT THIS IS ABOUT YOU, you opened this thread!
You feel that there are barriers, but the reasons you showed in this thread are not! That’s why people are trying to show you why you might be feeling those “barriers”, but you refuse to listen.
Your attitude is bad, That is all.

This thread is about my experience and the experience of others attempting this content. You clearly lack the understanding of that.

Your experience is caused by your attitude. You clearly lack the understanding of that.

My experience is caused by the attitude of others. You don’t see it because you seem to be one of those “others”

In most cases where build is an issue it’s “my way or the highway” which is hardly productive.

The attitude I seem to see and the theme seems to be “teach what to think, not how to think” when the opposite should be true.

Feel free to make your own squad and impose whatever rules you want. If too scared, deal with other people’s rules. Simple really.

Sigh, again more toxic attitude. Prime example of what is wrong. “My way or the highway” attitude when it comes to certain things.

Your way of thinking is part of the problem I see. unfriendly community when it comes to raids, one mind thinking and inability to teach how to think not what to think. Deviate and be kicked or rejected. Team play is important and can still be achived and fill a role without being a mindless drone simply grinding content for purpose of win.

There’s a reason behind every requirement that you see.

Ascended required: Most groups only require trinkets (easiest to get, mandatory, no excuses), weapons (preferred but not necessary), armour (Exotic with Ascended as a long-term goal). The benefit of full ascended is maximizing damage output (it makes a difference if rotations aren’t optimal), meaning quicker phase times, meaning more time for screwups. I’ve seen many learning raid groups recover from screwups spectacularly because of that extra time.

Experience required: This is not necessarily kill experience. A handful of successful attempts down to say, below 50%, is adequate experience. If you’re only finding groups requiring kill experience, and the Eternal, likely they’re only looking for more experienced players to help teach the newcomers in the group. A good learning group has 3-5 experienced players (no single player knows everything about every role/class) and rest newcomers. I’ve even had groups that only had 2 newcomers and the rest experienced, and even those have failed spectacularly.

I’ve had experience with learning groups as a newcomer and teacher (although I only provide input where necessary and let other more experienced players explain things).

If you’re still encountering so called “elitist” attitudes, you’re finding the wrong groups. If you’re actually finding the right groups and are still experiencing barriers, then that’s on you and you’re not telling us something.

Adaptation is not an issue, ability to change my builds is not an issue. I just refuse to be a mindless clone playing in a way that isn’t fun.

This is ironic. I had several guildies in my former casual guild tell me the exact same thing. You’re basically saying “I can adapt, but I won’t adapt to the optimal playstyle”.