Guild Wars 2

Phoenix.1370:

My experience is caused by the attitude of others.

You refuse to understand a single thing: YOU are causing the problem in this case. YOU don’t want to meet the requirements even if it’s just adjusting your traits to sth given. So it’s YOUR fault that ppl refuse to raid with you.

Phoenix.1370:

OnizukaBR.8537:

Your build MAY BE viable but I’m 100% sure that your build dont out perform meta build, there are a lot of experienced guilds pushing for world records on clear times, and if your build outperformed metas they would be using it ( dont think nobody never tried it, its not like there is infinite builds ).
And if your wrong ( you never cleared a raid with your build so you cant give any proof ) you will waste hours of 9 other people. So you are the one being selfish with this attitude, there is nothing wrong with off-meta builds if you form your own party with 9 other people that want to try new builds.
But for people that want to clear the raids before next reset (everyone has limited playtime), meta builds is the better way to ensure it.
So you have two options, make your own group ( and you may find that you are wrong after wiping for hours with no sucess) or just change your build.
But if your build dont do enough damage to clear a raid boss, please dont make a post after asking for nerfs because raids are too hard.

I say that I outperform meta because I understand my build more and my proffesion more. In my experience especially in pvp, those that just copy/paste metas majority of the time they have no clue how to properly use them and no experience with the proffesion and thus are easy to kill. What matters is the skill of the individual using the build, not usually the build itself. It helps but not essential in my experience. Meta is “best” on paper, but in the hands of an amateur it’s no better than anything else.

Sure I’ve not tried but in my experience with every other content and world meta events and content and dungeons and fractals I’ve yet to run into an issue where my builds don’t perform up to standard or can’t keep up with others in my groups.
.

If you truly were a good/decent player, you would understand that switching to meta build would be way more beneficial for the other 9 people around you than playing on your own “fun builds”

Sigh, again more toxic attitude. Prime example of what is wrong. “My way or the highway” attitude when it comes to certain things.

As opposed to making me your slave and forcing me to play with you, in the way that you want? Seems like you are just as much of an advocate of the ‘my way or the highway’ approach. Actually you are even worse, you want to control how people play without even dealing with the hassle of leading a squad. You want to join someone else’s squad and then force them to accept you regardless of what you do.

Something something toxic attitude…

The more he’s talking about it the more I want to see his build.

Ah… I think I see what you want.

Basically you want to be able to experience raid and figure out what build and tactics are best for a boss fight instead of being told what to do. Understandable, figuring out tactics is part of what makes raid enjoyable as well.

Well, if that’s what you want, then you’re right, it is far too late for newcomers to try to figure out what tactics to use. Sorry, but the only time you can get to plan out tactics is probably on during the first week after a raid wing’s release. After that point, most obvious tactics have been figured out and people are expecting others to just follow that tactic. Like, you’re not expecting to figure out tactic again on CoF, right?

I’m choosing to ignore toxic posts by toxic people clearly just wanting to assault me for refusing to be a meta drone instead of addressing the topic at hand.

Rashy.4165

Not everyone has ascended, not easiest thing to get the specific ones, I happen to be lucky and got a decent few zerker ones for my rev along with weapons for him
Kinda unrealistic to some who do not have luck or pvp or has not tried fractals/raids before as they are usually more common from there apart from dung specific ones.

Again, this is circular. You need experience to get in, to get in your need experience. I have no such experience as I have yet to find a group to even make a first attempt. Hardly positive or helpful from community. “Oh sure, you can join in, as long as you have tried before”…not tried? SOL

The barriers I have listed are from around 15 or so groups I’ve attempted to join/contact all without sucess all requiring unrealistic requirments. Either this content you need to get REALLYlucky with or be part of an already helpful guild.

What is optimal to one person may not be optimal to another. Playing with a build or weapon you are unfamiliar with and cannot perform up to standard with even if they are the most best thing in the world, will be detrimental to the team and be counter productive.
I cannot even get in to try out the content in order to make correct adjustments to perform better due to the barriers I’ve experienced, I have no idea if the “meta” will be the best for me, I have a feeling it won’t. The barriers prevent me from trying/adapting or learning.

LegACy.1296:

Ah… I think I see what you want.

Basically you want to be able to experience raid and figure out what build and tactics are best for a boss fight instead of being told what to do. Understandable, figuring out tactics is part of what makes raid enjoyable as well.

Well, if that’s what you want, then you’re right, it is far too late for newcomers to try to figure out what tactics to use. Sorry, but the only time you can get to plan out tactics is probably on during the first week after a raid wing’s release. After that point, most obvious tactics have been figured out and people are expecting others to just follow that tactic. Like, you’re not expecting to figure out tactic again on CoF, right?

Kind of. I want to experience and figure out what works for me, and the role thats required of me, again what others think is optimal may not be optimal for me. I can’t simply be a close range fighter for ages then simply switch to range/support and be expected to perform the best I lack the experience with those skill sets and the mindset. And due to the barriers people have placed and experience required no one including myself can achieve that experience. They are expected to just load up and perform amazing.

In gw1 I sucked as a monk even with the best builds and suggested builds because I could never get into the mindset and lacked the experienced required to run the build efficiently. Same problem here. If you demand someone use a build they have no experience with or fit a role they have no experience with you will get nowhere and they will be just as big as a problem as they were previously.

I do get it, people have figured out what on paper works and what for some works, for others like myself it won’t work and will be a bigger weak link trying to fit a roll they cannot fit even with a proffesion they are most used to and have the most suitable gear towards.

Phoenix.1370:

I’m choosing to ignore toxic posts by toxic people clearly just wanting to assault me for refusing to be a meta drone instead of addressing the topic at hand.

Rashy.4165

Not everyone has ascended, not easiest thing to get the specific ones, I happen to be lucky and got a decent few zerker ones for my rev along with weapons for him
Kinda unrealistic to some who do not have luck or pvp or has not tried fractals/raids before as they are usually more common from there apart from dung specific ones.

Again, this is circular. You need experience to get in, to get in your need experience. I have no such experience as I have yet to find a group to even make a first attempt. Hardly positive or helpful from community. “Oh sure, you can join in, as long as you have tried before”…not tried? SOL

The barriers I have listed are from around 15 or so groups I’ve attempted to join/contact all without sucess all requiring unrealistic requirments. Either this content you need to get REALLYlucky with or be part of an already helpful guild.

What is optimal to one person may not be optimal to another. Playing with a build or weapon you are unfamiliar with and cannot perform up to standard with even if they are the most best thing in the world, will be detrimental to the team and be counter productive.
I cannot even get in to try out the content in order to make correct adjustments to perform better due to the barriers I’ve experienced, I have no idea if the “meta” will be the best for me, I have a feeling it won’t. The barriers prevent me from trying/adapting or learning.

Keep spewing out buzzwords buddy, I’m sure they’ll mean something someday if you believe hard enough!

You really remember me of this chronotank we had at VG some time ago.
He wasnt tanking the VG near the pilar and were hit by blue circles very often, and for that reason we wasnt killing VG.
So someone asked “Try to tank him on the corner, and you are not seeing the blue circles?” ( Sometimes people can bug and dont see the blue circle, then have to evade by sound ), the mesmer replied “I’m using action camera i cant tank at the pilar because of the camera angle, and with AC is hard to evade the blues”, so the same person told him “So can you turn off your Action Camera for this encounter?”, he replied “You dont have the right to say how i play the game, you are an elitist” and then he rage quit.
So the biggest barrier in raids are player behavior, you must be nice to others, and have respect for their time so they can do the same for you, and by that i mean play what is needed for the greater good.

Phoenix.1370:

Kind of. I want to experience and figure out what works for me, and the role thats required of me, again what others think is optimal may not be optimal for me. I can’t simply be a close range fighter for ages then simply switch to range/support and be expected to perform the best I lack the experience with those skill sets and the mindset. And due to the barriers people have placed and experience required no one including myself can achieve that experience. They are expected to just load up and perform amazing.

In gw1 I sucked as a monk even with the best builds and suggested builds because I could never get into the mindset and lacked the experienced required to run the build efficiently. Same problem here. If you demand someone use a build they have no experience with or fit a role they have no experience with you will get nowhere and they will be just as big as a problem as they were previously.

Now, if only you communicated it as clear as this previously XD

If you’re strictly talking about roles though… It’s not that different from other PvE though. What particular class style do you like? If you like melee DPS then Guardian, Warrior, and Revenant is for you. If you like ranged or AoE DPS go Elementalist. If you like doing condition DPS then necromancer is for your. If you like buffing and tanking, Chronomancer is for you. And if you like healing, Druid is for you.

Then again, I’m still not sure. In your head, what’s the ideal way to do raid?

EDIT:
Also, “They are expected to just load up and perform amazing.”
Well… you’re expected to learn how to play your class OUTSIDE the raid since you can do it outside as well. Like, I only recently play condi necro and I alreayd memorized the skill rotation before jumping to raid as necro =x

Phoenix.1370:

Coconut.7082:

Phoenix.1370:

Coconut.7082:

Phoenix.1370:

It seems this thread is completly derailing and turning into “what you are doing wrong” THIS ISN’T ABOUT ME this isn’t about me specifically and my builds, again I’d post on revenant forum to discuss if it was.

Please get back on topic.

This topic was about the difficulty of newcomers getting into it, regardless of builds.

There is too many barriers and too few support for newcomers getting in, this has been my experience for atleast a week and a half now.

And the attitude such as this as hostile to newcomers. This may not be the experience of all, but it certainly has me. Requirments for most entry level is ridiculous and unrealistic and the few training guilds are very hostile/toxic in their attitudes. This has been my experience. That is all.

BUT THIS IS ABOUT YOU, you opened this thread!
You feel that there are barriers, but the reasons you showed in this thread are not! That’s why people are trying to show you why you might be feeling those “barriers”, but you refuse to listen.
Your attitude is bad, That is all.

This thread is about my experience and the experience of others attempting this content. You clearly lack the understanding of that.

Your experience is caused by your attitude. You clearly lack the understanding of that.

My experience is caused by the attitude of others. You don’t see it because you seem to be one of those “others”

In most cases where build is an issue it’s “my way or the highway” which is hardly productive.

The attitude I seem to see and the theme seems to be “teach what to think, not how to think” when the opposite should be true.

So you are okay and everyone else is wrong? Great thinking!

As I see it, your build is probably not accepted because it is lacking one the the group utilities expected from a Revenant.
Lets say your build doesn’t provide Fury (which is one thing expected for example) should the team kick one of the other classes and bring another Revenant just because you refuse to adjust your build?
Basically what you are saying is: kitten you all, I’m going to play this build and everyone has to adjust around it.

How elitist of you.

to be on toppic. Is it impossible for new/late comers to join raids. No it isn’t impossible

Everyone can make a character with a meta build. A build that has proven to be able to give good results in raids. Some builds are more expensive/ mor difficult to acquire. But everyone can make a character with a meta build. I see often training runs in LFG for raids (I’m also in Europe). Everyone can join traing runs. So it isn’t impossible for newcomers to raid.

Now before you say that your not willing to take a meta build. That isn’t the topic actually ;-). But to reply on that to.

I can make a tempest build that outperforms the meta build in burst damage. But is that needed in raids no consistent damage is needed. I can make a rev build that does more damage then the meta build. But is that needed? No again. And for every meta build online I can make a better build in a certain way. But that doesn’t mean that it’s a better build for the raids. It isn’t the primarily task for a rev to do damage. it’s keeping facet of nature up 100% of the time and have a lot of cc for cc fases. Yes you still need to do damage. But that doesn’t mean you can sacrifice either of both to gain more damage.

For example:
If your joining as a rev. They expect you to fullfill the role frome a rev. But if you say No I’m a pure dps rev and I have no cc and I’m not using facet of nature because it’s not needed for my damage. Then you can still have the best DPS build for a rev possible. You can maybe outperform every rev raiding in dps. But why should they choose you when a pug can do more damage on a meta tempest?

Everyone in the team needs to fullfill a role. Some classes are better at fullfilling certain roles then others.

You say your using shiro instead of the dwarf stance. Did you tested it out? did you take into account that the mesmer is in the same groop as you? so already have a lot of quickness. At those moments you don’t need to change to shiro. because you already have quickness. But you always can change to dwarf stance for the hammers if you already have quickness. (Just pointing something out)

An elitist attitude is also one of not wanting to change your build.

Man this thread is just great!

Seriously though, Phoenix people have gone and learned the raids through tens of hours of work, perfected on all trait variants, and utilities. How can you who has NEVER raided possibly think that you outperform a meta build?

Again how can you think those same people, Who have already learned, and memorized the mechanics of whatever encounter they are advertising for in the LFG, have to accept you into there group? Think about it yourself for a moment, we active raiders have done our learning process and rather not teach someone every single time we have to raid. This is in no way elitist and its honestly pathetic that you keep throwing out that word as an insult.

The only thing holding YOU back from raiding is your attitude. People have already posted the reddit link to the training guilds, whisper one of those leaders and go get some information on raids.

@ OP, just out of interest, would you be so kind and tell me your build?

LegACy.1296:

Phoenix.1370:

Kind of. I want to experience and figure out what works for me, and the role thats required of me, again what others think is optimal may not be optimal for me. I can’t simply be a close range fighter for ages then simply switch to range/support and be expected to perform the best I lack the experience with those skill sets and the mindset. And due to the barriers people have placed and experience required no one including myself can achieve that experience. They are expected to just load up and perform amazing.

In gw1 I sucked as a monk even with the best builds and suggested builds because I could never get into the mindset and lacked the experienced required to run the build efficiently. Same problem here. If you demand someone use a build they have no experience with or fit a role they have no experience with you will get nowhere and they will be just as big as a problem as they were previously.

Now, if only you communicated it as clear as this previously XD

If you’re strictly talking about roles though… It’s not that different from other PvE though. What particular class style do you like? If you like melee DPS then Guardian, Warrior, and Revenant is for you. If you like ranged or AoE DPS go Elementalist. If you like doing condition DPS then necromancer is for your. If you like buffing and tanking, Chronomancer is for you. And if you like healing, Druid is for you.

Then again, I’m still not sure. In your head, what’s the ideal way to do raid?

EDIT:
Also, “They are expected to just load up and perform amazing.”
Well… you’re expected to learn how to play your class OUTSIDE the raid since you can do it outside as well. Like, I only recently play condi necro and I alreayd memorized the skill rotation before jumping to raid as necro =x

This is just a small part, it’s the community/attitude towards newcomers that I have the bigger problem with. Which causes the friction.

Revenant is my primary and I go for more dps than anything. I don’t know what the ideal way to do raids is because I haven’t had the experience of a raid yet due to the attitudes and restrictions of others.

Again what may be optimal for one person may not be optimal for others. The attitude seems to be “play this way with this proffesion or not at all” Not given a valid reason why or explained why or even the chance to EXPERIENCE why, all newcomers have is the demands of “elites” with toxic attitudes. Which is why it is unfriendly to newcomers.

Begins the conversation with insults. Wonders why people refuse to take him into raids.

OP, in case you don’t realize it, calling people “meta clones/drones” is not exactly the way to get them to help you. Based on the attitude you’ve shown here, I wouldn’t welcome you into my guild or my raid.

You can keep saying “it’s not about me,” but it is about you. It’s about your bad attitude toward the rest of the community.

That attitude wasn’t built by a failure to find a raid group. You ALREADY had it when you went looking. It’s easy to identify and it’s the reason you’re having issues finding people to play with.

When you’re ready to be a part of a team and you communicate that out to others, you’ll find more success. You need to drop the defensive attitude and open yourself up to the team strategy.

I look at it the same way I view team sports like basketball or football: there’s lots of winning strategies, but you can’t have each player picking their own strategy. You need one single team strategy and all the players have to buy in to that.

You might be Lebron James, but if you can’t play on a team, you can’t win.

okay, maybe see it out of the perspective of a raid leader.
since i am leading raids, i tell you that its hard work to get a squad together, if you are pugging or only have like, lets say 4 people off start.
also if you want to teach a complete group with zero experience.

also the group expects from you, that you lead them through and actually get the kill after some time.
also what you have to see: faster kill times makes an encounter far more easy, if you have enough dmg, you can kill the vale guardian really fast in his last phase.
if you don’t, you take more time. what happens with this “more” time? players likely do more mistakes, lets say you kill him with 3 mins left vs you kill him with 10 seconds left. 3 mins more to do mistakes, 3 mins more where the team has to run greens, cc seekers and other stuff.
in an unexperienced team, this can be a grave problem. people start to loose concentration, if its not only 1 wipe because its a teaching group, people will start doing more and more mistakes, after some time. they will start to struggle.

i am not saying, that you run these builds, this text is just an example for you.

on the other hand, you want that certain roles are filled. lets say: you want 25 stacks of might on the whole 10 man squad.
you could blast firefields…that takes time, other fields are flying arround, you could kitten up.
an engineer could run with elixier traits and buff the whole group. sure.

but boom, there comes the ps warrior. he has greater dmg then a engineer who would run elixiers, does the team buffing alone, he has extra boons from banners and can cc a good amount.

so, why choose a engineer without a meta build over a ps warrior who does that job better? it makes no sense.
at this point, a engineer can shine with his conditions and great cc against seeker, with other skills then running elixier ones. like big ol bomb, pistol 5, bombkit 5, mortar kit icefield 3, flameblast etc.
so, why should that specific engineer now should take the turret crate, when the mortar kit outperforms it dmg as utility wise in every situation at valeguardian. later in the phases, when u pull him arround, the towers wouldn’t even reach, while the mortar kit stays always there and u can activate it fast.

lets say, you have already a chrono in your group, this chrono is capable to give the group permanent quickness in the whole fight, cuz hes playing really good.
on the other hand, you have a revenant, who plays with shiro and mallyx.
so, why should this rev do that? shiro is completly pointless because he has already permanent quickness.
why choose lacking utilities in a fight wich you want to succeed. the rev could go with herald and provide permanent fury and 50% boonduration to the group.

point is: as leader, i have to decide what is good for the group. i set up the group in a certain way, that every dude in their does their share and have his role. thats called teamplay and groupbuild.
ps warriors do their share regarding might, druids do theirs regarding fury, chrono does his quickness.
now i have to decide what is good for the group. do i take a player, who wants to be a special snowflake and does stuff like: i’ll use boots bad builds, because this flamethrower engi gives me 25 stacks of might and nearly permaquickness, and i ALONE am efficent with it.
yeah…in openworld setting, or in pvp without your group, you probably are.

but this is raids, and there is this raidgroup, where certain roles are filled and certain classes are expected to do something.

it doesn’t matter if its a teaching group, or a super exp. group…the building of the team is always the same…certain roles are filled, so everyone is covered.

and not all play pure meta. there is the F squad, there is the mirror comp, 442 & 541. some use magi druids, some use zealot druids or complete zerker / viper druids, other ones use necros instead of engis to get to the goal.
some use a chronotank, other use a guardian, or a thief.

but you see, there is then still this one guy who does his job…like the tank…he tanks..be it a chrono, a thief or the guardian.

but i can tell you as a leader of a successful raid. if you would come to me, you show me your build and i see it doesn’t fit into my group, i tell you to either change your build, or just to leave, because you would harm my other 9 members and we all want that everyone does their share he is supposed to, in the groupsetting we defined together.

Lendruil.9061:

@ OP, just out of interest, would you be so kind and tell me your build?

Being on my revenant the current one I am using although I have switched to it recently after some tweaking.
Zerker gear with shiro/glint invo/dev/herald, invo is all top traits/dev is mid bottom top and herald is bottom mid top. This is what I use for standard pve currently. As I stated previously. after a little while ago looking at revenant builds on raids, this one I made is very close to that one, with couple trait differences on the dps/support build. I also use sword/shield and staff. which differs from that ones sword/axe and different runes/sigils.

But again this is besides the point. The purpose of this post was the difficulty for newcomers to get in, far more difficult and restrictive than it should be for someone desiring to enjoy new content.

Tweaking a build to fit a raid has never been the issue. It’sthe attitude of the people asking it, and the demands, I’d much prefer being asked to fit a specific role and be given the freedom to do it my own way, need more dps? Sure no problem, just don’t tell me specific builds and weapons to switch to to reach that end, it won’t work.
Need more tanking? Sure I got it, will change to be more natural. It’s the meta mindset and the mindset of “do it this way or get out” is the problem I see.

Phoenix.1370:

Revenant is my primary and I go for more dps than anything. I don’t know what the ideal way to do raids is because I haven’t had the experience of a raid yet due to the attitudes and restrictions of others.

Again what may be optimal for one person may not be optimal for others. The attitude seems to be “play this way with this proffesion or not at all” Not given a valid reason why or explained why or even the chance to EXPERIENCE why, all newcomers have is the demands of “elites” with toxic attitudes. Which is why it is unfriendly to newcomers.

Revenant is not a DPS class, as DPS role he is outclassed by both Tempest and Thief,
the reason Rev is brought into raids is for his utilities (Boon duration, Protection, Fury, strong CC, and so…).
What may be optimal for one person may not be optimal for others, but what may be optimal for others, may not be optimal for the team.
You’ve been given various explanations & examples for this here, yet you chose to ignore them.
Since the release of raids I’ve seen countless changes in all builds, including Revs. When raids just came out Jalis wasn’t even “meta” (until recently, and even now it’s not mandatory for all bosses), not everyone were using staff, I saw Revs running with hammer because some considered it good and so on. After all these changed, people game up with the current “meta” builds, that are mostly optimal.
No-one should be forced waste his time on YOU experiencing new builds, experiencing time is over & everything is much easier today. If you want to experience join a team or form your own.

Anyone who has raided for more than 2 hours could tell you shield is useless on Rev in raids. This isn’t sPvP, you don’t need the shield and offhand sword would be far more useful since it has a block and a CC.

The difficulty you face is because you think your special snowflake builds have merit when in fact they don’t since people have run hundreds of hours of raids testing everything to see what’s best.

Eh, his build is probably alright except for Hardening Persistence potentially drawing aggro. That’s really not the issue. He’s 95% running the meta build.

But for somebody who’s 95% meta to have such a negative attitude toward the meta? It’s likely a sign of large attitude issues. Huge red flag.

Do you even know what herald jobs in raids? When you’re using Shiro in raids , any decent raid leader will kick you except you’re doing mortars in Prison Camp encounter. You should stop being a special snowflake and play a proper build so you don’t drag 9 other people with you. I enjoyed pistol/pistol thief gameplay but there is no way I bringing it for raids.

There are some groups that don’t do gear/exp/LI check and actually succeed out there. Join those group and eventually you will get your exp and raid kill.

fishball.7204:

Anyone who has raided for more than 2 hours could tell you shield is useless on Rev in raids. This isn’t sPvP, you don’t need the shield and offhand sword would be far more useful since it has a block and a CC.

The difficulty you face is because you think your special snowflake builds have merit when in fact they don’t since people have run hundreds of hours of raids testing everything to see what’s best.

Who said I would use this build specifically? I would most likely use a sword, that to me sounds more appealing than the axe laid out in the meta build. I know it doesn’t work in all cases, I just use it because I enjoy the extra healing for soloing content. Change isn’t my issue, the issue is the people demanding clones for meta and nothing else. Sure not everyone but 90% of the guilds teaching do demand such a thing and are hostile to anything less.

timmyf.1490:

Eh, his build is probably alright except for Hardening Persistence potentially drawing aggro. That’s really not the issue. He’s 95% running the meta build.

But for somebody who’s 95% meta to have such a negative attitude toward the meta? It’s likely a sign of large attitude issues. Huge red flag.

It’s the mindset of the meta and the attitude that is bred from it that I have the attitude towards.

good example with the shield: in an unexp group, breaksbars go down slow.
you, on the other hand, as an exp rev who knows how to break, have extra cc with the axe and more dmg…because you know, axe has a bigger dmg coeff. then the shield…or a sword in the second hand, thus more dmg on your mainhand skills.

so what do you bring to the group with the axe: more cc wich benefits it greatly and more dmg wich also benefits the group.
so: why are you using shield? you are not expected to heal the group, and you are not expected to stand arround 3 seconds doing nothing, because you are not the tank…if you stand behind vg, you don’t even get his cleave dmg. only thing that hurts is: standing in seeker orbs, where you should move out and not block, blue circles: wich you shouldn’t block, you can move out pretty early or dodge and the debuff wich ticks every x seconds…wich is the problem of the druids.

you have a block on your staff…so after your breakbar rota (wich lets you evade anyways), you can use that block to get rid of other incoming dmg, wich could spawn right after the breakbar was up.

so, why use shield?
edit: same i wrote on top also applys to the sword and most other bosses. at matthias, i would say: okay, last phase can get messy and sword is a solid option, if you never where there and you are unexp.
but other encounters? no, pls use axe so you are more helpful to the group.

as you see, it comes down to experience. has nothing to do with being a meta fanboy or being a hipster for not running axe.
only thing that would mostly happen, is that you dmg the teamperformance.

there are even teams out there, who don’t break mindlessly. they know, oh: gorseval has a 4k breakbar and they use the exact amout of skills needed there, to break him.
what if you where in this group, and the leader says: you are expected to use axe?

would you say no?

Phoenix.1370:

Revenant is my primary and I go for more dps than anything. I don’t know what the ideal way to do raids is because I haven’t had the experience of a raid yet due to the attitudes and restrictions of others.

Okay, this is going to be interesting…

You see, Revenant’s actual role in a raid is NOT dealing damage (surprise!). Instead, the reason why most group want Revenant in their composition is to provide Fury and increase the duration of mesmer’s Quickness buff. Oh, and also to provide cc for breakbar with staff. Their DPS is just a side bonus.

I think one of your problem is that people does not explain this stuff to you. Well, do keep in mind that people also need to explain raid mechanics to you (like standing on VG’s green or that VG splits every phase change). Most people decided to focus on explaining the raid mechanic instead of raid build and composition, since you can only experience raid mechanic inside the raid, but you can try build and composition anywhere else.

There could be another problem though. You might say that you don’t like simply being a boon bot like that. Well, I’m sorry, if you’re joining a group, then you need to do what the group asks. The only other alternative is to start your own group, then you’re free to do as you please

Hazell.2065:

Do you even know what herald jobs in raids? When you’re using Shiro in raids , any decent raid leader will kick you except you’re doing mortars in Prison Camp encounter. You should stop being a special snowflake and play a proper build so you don’t drag 9 other people with you. I enjoyed pistol/pistol thief gameplay but there is no way I bringing it for raids.

There are some groups that don’t do gear/exp/LI check and actually succeed out there. Join those group and eventually you will get your exp and raid kill.

Again, COMPLETELY ignoring everything I’ve said. When did I say I won’t change my legends? I take shiro because he was one of my favourite characters in gw1, I got no issue changing for raids. It is the attitude of you must be an exact meta clone or get out that I have the issue with, if you lack some gear/deviate from traits you are excluded.

They’re the ones putting in the effort to teach you it’s totally fair for them to ask you to run what they want so they know what to expect instead of catering to every bit of your special needs.

You’re a guest in their squad, they’re the ones leading. You either play ball or make your own squad where you can have whatever build you want do whatever thing.

I’ve never seen people insist on 100% meta builds but most people have a few key utilities/traits/runes/sigils/weapon sets that are best for each encounter which is why people use them. The very best players know when to use different stuff for what is required and any ‘meta’ build is just a guideline rather than a must follow.

skarpak.8594:

good example with the shield: in an unexp group, breaksbars go down slow.
you, on the other hand, as an exp rev who knows how to break, have extra cc with the axe and more dmg…because you know, axe has a bigger dmg coeff. then the shield…or a sword in the second hand, thus more dmg on your mainhand skills.

so what do you bring to the group with the axe: more cc wich benefits it greatly and more dmg wich also benefits the group.
so: why are you using shield? you are not expected to heal the group, and you are not expected to stand arround 3 seconds doing nothing, because you are not the tank…if you stand behind vg, you don’t even get his cleave dmg. only thing that hurts is: standing in seeker orbs, where you should move out and not block, blue circles: wich you shouldn’t block, you can move out pretty early or dodge and the debuff wich ticks every x seconds…wich is the problem of the druids.

you have a block on your staff…so after your breakbar rota (wich lets you evade anyways), you can use that block to get rid of other incoming dmg, wich could spawn right after the breakbar was up.

so, why use shield?
edit: same i wrote on top also applys to the sword.

I’ve already addressed this.

Phoenix.1370:

fishball.7204:

Anyone who has raided for more than 2 hours could tell you shield is useless on Rev in raids. This isn’t sPvP, you don’t need the shield and offhand sword would be far more useful since it has a block and a CC.

The difficulty you face is because you think your special snowflake builds have merit when in fact they don’t since people have run hundreds of hours of raids testing everything to see what’s best.

Who said I would use this build specifically? I would most likely use a sword, that to me sounds more appealing than the axe laid out in the meta build. I know it doesn’t work in all cases, I just use it because I enjoy the extra healing for soloing content. Change isn’t my issue, the issue is the people demanding clones for meta and nothing else. Sure not everyone but 90% of the guilds teaching do demand such a thing and are hostile to anything less.

You did.
To you it does, but to someone else, who has hundreds of hours of experience in raids (and probably on rev too) it doesn’t, who’s more likely to be right?
OH-Sword is actually used on several occasions in raids and is considered “meta” (being not a rev player myself, I do not exactly know where). Being boxed in your own opinion, you just can’t understand what the “meta” is about.

LegACy.1296:

Phoenix.1370:

Revenant is my primary and I go for more dps than anything. I don’t know what the ideal way to do raids is because I haven’t had the experience of a raid yet due to the attitudes and restrictions of others.

Okay, this is going to be interesting…

You see, Revenant’s actual role in a raid is NOT dealing damage (surprise!). Instead, the reason why most group want Revenant in their composition is to provide Fury and increase the duration of mesmer’s Quickness buff. Oh, and also to provide cc for breakbar with staff. Their DPS is just a side bonus.

I think one of your problem is that people does not explain this stuff to you. Well, do keep in mind that people also need to explain raid mechanics to you (like standing on VG’s green or that VG splits every phase change). Most people decided to focus on explaining the raid mechanic instead of raid build and composition, since you can only experience raid mechanic inside the raid, but you can try build and composition anywhere else.

There could be another problem though. You might say that you don’t like simply being a boon bot like that. Well, I’m sorry, if you’re joining a group, then you need to do what the group asks. The only other alternative is to start your own group, then you’re free to do as you please

I think the problem is the attitude of leaders who demand without explanation and reject those who choose not to because they have not had the experience of a raid. I lack the raid experience and thus do not know what works best, I also do not know the leader and they do not know how I play and perform, expecting someone to fit a roll in content they have not experienced or had the chance to experience and reject them based on that is bad. I really don’t get why you do not understand this?

Coconut.7082:

Phoenix.1370:

fishball.7204:

Anyone who has raided for more than 2 hours could tell you shield is useless on Rev in raids. This isn’t sPvP, you don’t need the shield and offhand sword would be far more useful since it has a block and a CC.

The difficulty you face is because you think your special snowflake builds have merit when in fact they don’t since people have run hundreds of hours of raids testing everything to see what’s best.

Who said I would use this build specifically? I would most likely use a sword, that to me sounds more appealing than the axe laid out in the meta build. I know it doesn’t work in all cases, I just use it because I enjoy the extra healing for soloing content. Change isn’t my issue, the issue is the people demanding clones for meta and nothing else. Sure not everyone but 90% of the guilds teaching do demand such a thing and are hostile to anything less.

You did.
To you it does, but to someone else, who has hundreds of hours of experience in raids (and probably on rev too) it doesn’t, who’s more likely to be right?
OH-Sword is actually used on several occasions in raids and is considered “meta” (being not a rev player myself, I do not exactly know where). Being boxed in your own opinion, you just can’t understand what the “meta” is about.

Show me my quote where I said I would use this build specific and would refuse to change otherwise you are pulling bullkitten out your kitten .
What I have said is I will change to fit a roll using my own experiences and thoughts, not just copy/paste a build because it’s demanded of me.

I don’t get why you don’t understand that you can make your own raid group and run whatever you want. Why do you expect other people to cater to you specifically?

What if 9 bearbow 3 signet rangers joined your raid group? Would you tell them to run something else or let them stay and waste a few hours wiping on VG since they don’t have the proper setups?

you have a point there. there are many leaders out there who only explain mechanics of bossfights and expect that the people of the group know the groupsetup already.

well, you could also go a step forward and say, most of the leader actually don’t even know why the group is set up like this…mostly meta builds got addressed in guides, but there is nearly no guide towards groupsetup (yeah, some, but not many).

edit: are you by any chance german, phoenix?

fishball.7204:

I don’t get why you don’t understand that you can make your own raid group and run whatever you want. Why do you expect other people to cater to you specifically?

What if 9 bearbow 3 signet rangers joined your raid group? Would you tell them to run something else or let them stay and waste a few hours wiping on VG since they don’t have the proper setups?

I can, but as I addressed earlier, what about those who come after? They will run into the same problem and this will cycle all over again, if content like this was made slightly easier for people to get their foot in the door, such as better incentives to take inexperienced players with you or certain bonuses etc, maybe it would be easier and more beneficial for experienced players to take people along.

I don’t want people to cater to me. I want the community to be less hostile and toxic against people who have no experience in the content or don’t wish to follow meta to the letter.

skarpak.8594:

you have a point there. there are many leaders out there who only explain mechanics of bossfights and expect that the people of the group know the groupsetup already.

well, you could also go a step forward and say, most of the leader actually don’t even know why the group is set up like this…mostly meta builds got addressed in guides, but there is nearly no guide towards groupsetup (yeah, some, but not many).

edit: are you by any chance german, phoenix?

That is the problem. Before anyone gets a taste they are rejected without even seeing for themselves WHY such things are required or even the ability to think for themselves. Meta or get out.
I have done, met with rejection and ignoring. Forum posts on their websites blocked when I question why and hostile. This is what I take issue with. People claim to train people and teach people but the moment they question or want to experience something for themselves or deviate it’s met with hostility.

I could be really unlucky and finding 15+ poor guilds/groups but this has been my experience SO FAR which is why I have made this post, my own little review of trying the content and been met with hostility and problems. More so than what people claim the problem is with just my build, largly due to the attitude of people leading.

No, I am British.

Phoenix.1370:

What I have said is I will change to fit a roll using my own experiences and thoughts, not just copy/paste a build because it’s demanded of me.

As a leader, I can’t put myself in a situation where I’m arguing with my raid members about traits, skills, or weapons. That’s the fastest way to dramatown there is.

If I’m leading a group and I ask something of my members, I need them to do it. Without question (during the run, afterward is fine.) Period.

You seem unleadable, at least in high-pressure situations. No leader has the time to explain every single choice for 9 other people during a run. (And you certainly don’t deserve special treatment.)

Phoenix.1370:

I think the problem is the attitude of leaders who demand without explanation and reject those who choose not to because they have not had the experience of a raid. I lack the raid experience and thus do not know what works best, I also do not know the leader and they do not know how I play and perform, expecting someone to fit a roll in content they have not experienced or had the chance to experience and reject them based on that is bad. I really don’t get why you do not understand this?

Then help me understand it. Unlike some people here, I’m not interested in insulting you, I’m interested in understanding what problem you actually have.

Anyway, try seeing it from the leader’s perspective. They have a few roles that needs to be fulfilled by the group members so the run can be a success. To them, it doesn’t matter who filled role A, role B, or role C, as long as those roles are fulfilled. To them, it’s better to have people inexperienced with role A fulfilling that role rather than not having anyone with role A at all.

And it’s not only newcomers who experience that kind of stuff. If a veteran group if lacking, say, a healer, then they will look for that healer. If a super veteran pro guy comes along but he doesn’t have healer, then he will get the kick as well, since the group needs a healer, not anything else.

Phoenix.1370:

LegACy.1296:

Phoenix.1370:

Revenant is my primary and I go for more dps than anything. I don’t know what the ideal way to do raids is because I haven’t had the experience of a raid yet due to the attitudes and restrictions of others.

Okay, this is going to be interesting…

You see, Revenant’s actual role in a raid is NOT dealing damage (surprise!). Instead, the reason why most group want Revenant in their composition is to provide Fury and increase the duration of mesmer’s Quickness buff. Oh, and also to provide cc for breakbar with staff. Their DPS is just a side bonus.

I think one of your problem is that people does not explain this stuff to you. Well, do keep in mind that people also need to explain raid mechanics to you (like standing on VG’s green or that VG splits every phase change). Most people decided to focus on explaining the raid mechanic instead of raid build and composition, since you can only experience raid mechanic inside the raid, but you can try build and composition anywhere else.

There could be another problem though. You might say that you don’t like simply being a boon bot like that. Well, I’m sorry, if you’re joining a group, then you need to do what the group asks. The only other alternative is to start your own group, then you’re free to do as you please

I think the problem is the attitude of leaders who demand without explanation and reject those who choose not to because they have not had the experience of a raid. I lack the raid experience and thus do not know what works best, I also do not know the leader and they do not know how I play and perform, expecting someone to fit a roll in content they have not experienced or had the chance to experience and reject them based on that is bad. I really don’t get why you do not understand this?

I think the problem is your attitude.
The leaders want to make the run as efficient as possible, knowing that a run with a new group can be very time consuming.
In result, they will minimize the time consuming factors.
While they can’t avoid explaining all the mechanics (because guides don’t always cover everything, or hard to understand), they CAN have a set team composition in which they know the role, and capabilities of each class. So, the “leaders” build their team using the “meta” builds known to everyone. If people refuse to use those builds, they might be missing group utilities, and the “leaders” don’t have time to check each and every player’s build.
How is that as an explanation from someone who sometimes leads runs?

FYI, Meta-battle does not give you the “meta” builds, but also contains a brief explanation about your role and use of that build. Also there is a squad-composition section which explains each role.

Phoenix.1370:

Show me my quote where I said I would use this build specific and would refuse to change otherwise you are pulling bullkitten out your kitten .
What I have said is I will change to fit a roll using my own experiences and thoughts, not just copy/paste a build because it’s demanded of me.

You were asked about your build, and you replied with your build. All your comments mention how you should not be forced to adjust your build.

You don’t have experiences, when you get some, then you can change the build to your liking.

it has nothing to do with being toxic or hostile to go after the meta.
if there is a group on lfg or whereever, and this group expects the players in this group to run the exact meta builds, then this is the choice of this group and this group / the leader has every right to kick players who don’t.

this has >nothing< to do with being toxic. its the choice of the group.

just to say, i expect my team to run the best food every time we raid and i expect that also from pugs i get into my group.
i tell them this at the start with the following: there are people in the group who have to run pretty expensive buff food, so pls do your share and don’t run with food wich costs only 2 silver, because that is being unfair.

if they don’t go after that, i kick them without any tear…and i don’t care if they are super exp and have 150 li or if they have only 10.

am i toxic for that? probably some people would say that, but i don’t care. i made this decicion before and i will tell it everybody on join. so its fair.
they either go with it, or they can leave…or expect to be kicked.
..and btw. i will tell them if they have the wrong bufffood in my eyes, even if its max.

and the same stuff, also applys to builds / armor / sigils / runes.

this is also not alone my decision, its a decision i made with my whole team.
so if we are lacking a person, we will together see if the pug fits and if minor stuff is okay…or even major stuff, because we are in carry mode and dont care about it…or if we say: no thanks, pls go.

LegACy.1296:

Phoenix.1370:

I think the problem is the attitude of leaders who demand without explanation and reject those who choose not to because they have not had the experience of a raid. I lack the raid experience and thus do not know what works best, I also do not know the leader and they do not know how I play and perform, expecting someone to fit a roll in content they have not experienced or had the chance to experience and reject them based on that is bad. I really don’t get why you do not understand this?

Then help me understand it. Unlike some people here, I’m not interested in insulting you, I’m interested in understanding what problem you actually have.

Anyway, try seeing it from the leader’s perspective. They have a few roles that needs to be fulfilled by the group members so the run can be a success. To them, it doesn’t matter who filled role A, role B, or role C, as long as those roles are fulfilled. To them, it’s better to have people inexperienced with role A fulfilling that role rather than not having anyone with role A at all.

And it’s not only newcomers who experience that kind of stuff. If a veteran group if lacking, say, a healer, then they will look for that healer. If a super veteran pro guy comes along but he doesn’t have healer, then he will get the kick as well, since the group needs a healer, not anything else.

The problem I mentioned is the hostility and attitude of the vast majority of people attempting to lead newcomers into content. It’s not warm and is directly hostile as evidence in this thread, insults and ignorance as soon as you deviate from 1 single thing that is demanded.

No matter how much you explain it’s still met with misunderstanding and ignorance.

I get that, which is fine for LFGs, but attempting to join a guild is met with the same problem, you are expected to fit 1 roll and use 1 build only, don’t do that or use a different trait or not ping specific buffs or consumables you are not allowed to participate and met with hostility, atleast in my experience.

To me it seems it drives people away from joining in on content which to me wouldn’t that make content dead and not used? To me the responses I’ve had and guild’s I’ve attemnpted to join and pretty much everyone of them with unrealistic expectations and meta mindset has put me off even trying the content as it seems futile at this point. Now you get someone new going through same experience, bam another one put off trying something they might enjoy. Before long you have a tiny group enjoying content and refusing to let anyone else join in.

Coconut.7082

As I have said MANY times which you CLEARLY didn’t read. I have NO ISSUE changing builds, but given freedom to do it my way, I only have issue if meta is demanded with no deviation, then yes, I refuse. Tell me the role to fill and I’ll make it work, just don’t copy/paste me a build and demand I use it.

skarpak.8594:

it has nothing to do with being toxic or hostile to go after the meta.
if there is a group on lfg or whereever, and this group expects the players in this group to run the exact meta builds, then this is the choice of this group and this group / the leader has every right to kick players who don’t.

this has >nothing< to do with being toxic. its the choice of the group.

just to say, i expect my team to run the best food every time we raid and i expect that also from pugs i get into my group.
i tell them this at the start with the following: there are people in the group who have to run pretty expensive buff food, so pls do your share and don’t run with food wich costs only 2 silver, because that is being unfair.

if they don’t go after that, i kick them without any tear…and i don’t care if they are super exp and have 150 li or if they have only 10.

am i toxic for that? probably some people would say that, but i don’t care. i made this decicion before and i will tell it everybody on join. so its fair.
they either go with it, or they can leave…or expect to be kicked.
..and btw. i will tell them if they have the wrong bufffood in my eyes, even if its max.

and the same stuff, also applys to builds / armor / sigils / runes.

this is also not alone my decision, its a decision i made with my whole team.
so if we are lacking a person, we will together see if the pug fits and if minor stuff is okay…or even major stuff, because we are in carry mode and dont care about it…or if we say: no thanks, pls go.

Again, that is fine for lfg and I expect people to look for specifics and post what they want, that is fine I got no issue with that.

What I DO have issue with is the SAME requirments/demands with guilds attempting to teach and those in charge having an openly hostile and toxic attitude towards newcomers or those that question meta, someone like me simply cannot join majority of guilds because of unrealistic expectations for someone unexperienced.

Again, it’s fine for lfg. but if you run a teaching guild and have those requirments it is unrealistic don’t you think? I had no ascended at all before I started doing pvp, thankfully I have enough now for pretty much a full set and a couple weapons, had I not, that would be another barrier in my way. What about those who are broke? Who don’t simply have the money for more expensive food? Another barrier, which again is fine for lfg i understand those demanding specifics and is outlined. Guilds on the other hand have very similar demands and reject any who do not meet standards that cannot be gotten without first experiencing raids, which cannot be done without getting into the guild.

Phoenix.1370:

No matter how much you explain it’s still met with misunderstanding and ignorance.

I feel the same way, at least we have that in common.

Phoenix.1370:

Coconut.7082
As I have said MANY times which you CLEARLY didn’t read. I have NO ISSUE changing builds, but given freedom to do it my way, I only have issue if meta is demanded with no deviation, then yes, I refuse. Tell me the role to fill and I’ll make it work, just don’t copy/paste me a build and demand I use it.

Sounds to me like you are asking for “my way or the high way”. Such elitism.
As I have said MANY times which you CLEARLY didn’t read: when you get experience, adjust your build to your liking. Right now, to PuG/Train groups, you know less than Jon Snow, so by the time you gain that experience, at least try to listen to the people that are trying to help you.

Coconut.7082:

Phoenix.1370:

No matter how much you explain it’s still met with misunderstanding and ignorance.

I feel the same way, at least we have that in common.

Phoenix.1370:

Coconut.7082
As I have said MANY times which you CLEARLY didn’t read. I have NO ISSUE changing builds, but given freedom to do it my way, I only have issue if meta is demanded with no deviation, then yes, I refuse. Tell me the role to fill and I’ll make it work, just don’t copy/paste me a build and demand I use it.

Sounds to me like you are asking for “my way or the high way”. Such elitism.
As I have said MANY times which you CLEARLY didn’t read: when you get experience, adjust your build to your liking. Right now, to PuG/Train groups, you know less than Jon Snow, so by the time you gain that experience, at least try to listen to the people that are trying to help you.

People like that demand others to play their way instead of learning for themselves.Demand a playstyle unfamiliar and foreign to them perhaps, or a playstyle they might dislike. I don’t want to do that. I’d rather play for fun using things I enjoy, sure I can make some sacrifices. Just don’t ask me to be a clone and mindlessly follow your way or the highway.

When you understand that I’ll address you again.

Phoenix.1370:

When you understand that I’ll address you again.

Is it going to be my turn soon? Because I explained to you why you’re a liability to any raid team, yet you seem to just want to pick fights.

But I guess that’s the point of this thread.

Let me explain in simple terms why newcommers have a more easy time: The community is more experienced with raids and established a meta, that gets things done. Now if you resist the meta ofcourse it will be difficult for you. You are saying you do not want to play with other players and you do not care about their succes, yet you complain about the accessibility of raid groups?.

The meta is what teaching guilds offer you…

timmyf.1490:

Phoenix.1370:

When you understand that I’ll address you again.

Is it going to be my turn soon? Because I explained to you why you’re a liability to any raid team, yet you seem to just want to pick fights.

But I guess that’s the point of this thread.

Because it’s ignorant thinking. You seem to expect people to understand and perform to a level you like immediately when they are new to something. Unrealistic and ridiculous.

My issue is with thinking like yours. You don’t understand the point of this thread.
The community is too hostile to even get to the point you are talking about, you are pulling an unrealistic situation out your kitten that is irrelevant to the topic at hand, one cannot even get to the point you are on about because of hostility from “leaders” in these fields.

Phoenix.1370:

I get that, which is fine for LFGs, but attempting to join a guild is met with the same problem, you are expected to fit 1 roll and use 1 build only, don’t do that or use a different trait or not ping specific buffs or consumables you are not allowed to participate and met with hostility, atleast in my experience.

To me it seems it drives people away from joining in on content which to me wouldn’t that make content dead and not used? To me the responses I’ve had and guild’s I’ve attemnpted to join and pretty much everyone of them with unrealistic expectations and meta mindset has put me off even trying the content as it seems futile at this point. Now you get someone new going through same experience, bam another one put off trying something they might enjoy. Before long you have a tiny group enjoying content and refusing to let anyone else join in.

Well, you see, raid has 2 components needed to be cleared. 1) mechanical ability (positioning, dodging and stuff) and 2) team composition and build. For most teaching guild, they feel like they have no need to teach you the 2nd one, since you can read it yourself outside of raid. So they focuses on number one and expect you to understand point 2 already. Would it be better if they teach point 2 as well? Absolutely. Does they have time to set aside to teach point 2? Not really.