Guild Wars 2

Phoenix.1370:

Because it’s ignorant thinking. You seem to expect people to understand and perform to a level you like immediately when they are new to something. Unrealistic and ridiculous.

My issue is with thinking like yours. You don’t understand the point of this thread.
The community is too hostile to even get to the point you are talking about, you are pulling an unrealistic situation out your kitten that is irrelevant to the topic at hand, one cannot even get to the point you are on about because of hostility from “leaders” in these fields.

Except I don’t. I happily run training sessions for my guild members. I just expect a few things in return:

1) Exotic or better gear and appropriate food, runes, sigils, and build
2) A good attitude and willingness to adjust if I ask
3) A commitment to run for a two hour session (which includes breaks)

We haven’t talked about #3, but you meet #1 by my standards. The issue is #2. You freely admit to not knowing about raids, but you’re incredibly hostile about changing your build. Those of us who do know have tried to explain it, but you’re just slinging insults instead.

To my eyes, it looks like you can’t distinguish between things that are appropriate or inappropriate during raids.

During the raid, it is rarely (if ever) appropriate to be discussing builds, composition, or strategy. This is limited to times when something is clearly lacking and must change for success. This happens more often during progression when you are learning the encounter than during training runs or clears.

If you want to be in a group with a leader, you must be leadable. You’ve given ample evidence that you’re more interested in arguing than listening. There are literally dozens of people I could grab at any moment who are interested in listening to me, not arguing with me.

As a raid leader, why would I accept the person who’s shown only hostility toward me and players like me?

You don’t go in a job interview and tell the company they’re idiots. Not if you want the job, anyway. Represent yourself in a more positive fashion and you may see better results.

Btw timmyf, are you lokikaraoke?

Hi Phoenix, not sure if you just never check the raid LFG or what’s up here, but I personally host Spirit Vale training runs (open to anyone) every Wednesday and Sunday and I know for a fact that a lot of other people do this too.

… Why not just join that and get your experience?
(Also lol at your whine, thank god I didn’t let you into my guild)

LegACy.1296:

Btw timmyf, are you lokikaraoke?

I’m /u/lokikaraoke on reddit, @mega_karaoke on Twitter, Super Mega Happy Fun Time Guild on Youtube, and Karaoke on a few random sites (gw2wvw.net, northernshiverpeaks.org). Everything else is probably an imposter! ;-)

timmyf.1490:

Number 1 is relatively fine.
Wrong. I am hostile to those that demand I exactly clone a meta build, That’s it.
I won’t do that in majority of cases as either cannot realistically be done or I dislike using certain weapons for that proffesion, luckilythere isn’t TOO much to chose from with revenants.

Like I said, if you were to ask me to go more dps, I’d do it no questions asked. if you linked me a build and demanded I changed to that and swap out weapons/gear to match that. I’d have a problem with that.

It’s the demanding of meta and nothing else I have a problem with.

Ask me to drop a skill or take an alternative? Like the shield or legend? Sure no problem. What matters is the attitude and mindset. Do not ask me to adopt meta clone, I will not do it. When met with this, I meet hostility.

I have been met with nothing but hostility from majority of people here included, of course I’m going to be hostile back, you get what you are given. I defended why I dislike meta and repeatedly said this is not the only topic of the thread and everyone still wanted to bash on it. I was mainly concerned with the attitude and hostility I have faced from people leading/teaching more so than meta builds.

Wrong actually. I didn’t call anyone idiots. I just dislike the hostility. Be hostile to me and I will be hostile back.

And funny enough I did actually get a job doing that. Well not word for word, but close enough.

Murdyr.9204:

Hi Phoenix, not sure if you just never check the raid LFG or what’s up here, but I personally host Spirit Vale training runs (open to anyone) every Wednesday and Sunday and I know for a fact that a lot of other people do this too.

You were fine when I talked to you. The guild you referred me to happen to be really toxic.
One member rejecting my application and when I reponded as to why and defended my position my thread was locked without a correct response. The leader then proceeded to message me, and while still had attitude, less so.
The guild had members who were hostile and dismissive.

Phoenix.1370:

Ask me to drop a skill or take an alternative? Like the shield or legend? Sure no problem. What matters is the attitude and mindset. Do not ask me to adopt meta clone, I will not do it. When met with this, I meet hostility.

The term for this is “high-maintenance.” As a raid leader, I can’t trust you to do the right thing automatically, nor can I just tell you what I want. Instead, I must tiptoe around making sure not to offend your sensibilities.

I would not invite you back to my groups and that is why. You’re too much work. I can’t devote that much energy to you while still successfully leading the group.

I’m sure you won’t like that answer, but that’s me keeping it 100.

TLDR: Cater to what the raid needs.

timmyf.1490:

Phoenix.1370:

Ask me to drop a skill or take an alternative? Like the shield or legend? Sure no problem. What matters is the attitude and mindset. Do not ask me to adopt meta clone, I will not do it. When met with this, I meet hostility.

The term for this is “high-maintenance.” As a raid leader, I can’t trust you to do the right thing automatically, nor can I just tell you what I want. Instead, I must tiptoe around making sure not to offend your sensibilities.

I would not invite you back to my groups and that is why. You’re too much work. I can’t devote that much energy to you while still successfully leading the group.

I’m sure you won’t like that answer, but that’s me keeping it 100.

Wrong. It’s just your mindset. I happen to do perfectly fine on my own or with a team, you just have the mindset of everyone is incompetent and must follow your directions or they will not perform to standard.

I do not get offended easy. What I am offended by is the terrible sense of community when it comes to raids, it’s sad when someone cannot enjoy content because people who have attitudes and hostility happen to had time to get into positions first.

Triggerbrand.8072:

TLDR: Cater to what the raid needs.

Then don’t post if you don’t have anything constructive to say.

If your way works so well then why haven’t you cleared the raids?

timmyf.1490:

Phoenix.1370:

Ask me to drop a skill or take an alternative? Like the shield or legend? Sure no problem. What matters is the attitude and mindset. Do not ask me to adopt meta clone, I will not do it. When met with this, I meet hostility.

The term for this is “high-maintenance.” As a raid leader, I can’t trust you to do the right thing automatically, nor can I just tell you what I want. Instead, I must tiptoe around making sure not to offend your sensibilities.

I would not invite you back to my groups and that is why. You’re too much work. I can’t devote that much energy to you while still successfully leading the group.

I’m sure you won’t like that answer, but that’s me keeping it 100.

As a fellow raid leader i feel the same way. Infact had a guy very similar to this one in our guild when raids started. They insisted so hard to play his build and only his build to the point where the 8 other people had to put up with this until his spirit was broken due to consecutive failures. He gave up entirely on raids. Moral of the story there is no I in team.

Phoenix.1370:

timmyf.1490:

Phoenix.1370:

Ask me to drop a skill or take an alternative? Like the shield or legend? Sure no problem. What matters is the attitude and mindset. Do not ask me to adopt meta clone, I will not do it. When met with this, I meet hostility.

The term for this is “high-maintenance.” As a raid leader, I can’t trust you to do the right thing automatically, nor can I just tell you what I want. Instead, I must tiptoe around making sure not to offend your sensibilities.

I would not invite you back to my groups and that is why. You’re too much work. I can’t devote that much energy to you while still successfully leading the group.

I’m sure you won’t like that answer, but that’s me keeping it 100.

Wrong. It’s just your mindset. I happen to do perfectly fine on my own or with a team, you just have the mindset of everyone is incompetent and must follow your directions or they will not perform to standard.

I do not get offended easy. What I am offended by is the terrible sense of community when it comes to raids, it’s sad when someone cannot enjoy content because people who have attitudes and hostility happen to had time to get into positions first.

I don’t think you’re incompetent, I think you’re a poor team player, difficult to manage, and likely to lead to group drama. This thread is a good example. You don’t mesh well with other raiders… and worse, you don’t seem to care about that. Or you think it’s our problem.

If you can’t play well in a team, it’s not crazy for the team to decide you don’t belong.

Triggerbrand.8072:

If your way works so well then why haven’t you cleared the raids?

Had you actually read the thread you would understand that your question is ignorant and completely nonsensical

timmyf.1490:

Phoenix.1370:

timmyf.1490:

Phoenix.1370:

Ask me to drop a skill or take an alternative? Like the shield or legend? Sure no problem. What matters is the attitude and mindset. Do not ask me to adopt meta clone, I will not do it. When met with this, I meet hostility.

The term for this is “high-maintenance.” As a raid leader, I can’t trust you to do the right thing automatically, nor can I just tell you what I want. Instead, I must tiptoe around making sure not to offend your sensibilities.

I would not invite you back to my groups and that is why. You’re too much work. I can’t devote that much energy to you while still successfully leading the group.

I’m sure you won’t like that answer, but that’s me keeping it 100.

Wrong. It’s just your mindset. I happen to do perfectly fine on my own or with a team, you just have the mindset of everyone is incompetent and must follow your directions or they will not perform to standard.

I do not get offended easy. What I am offended by is the terrible sense of community when it comes to raids, it’s sad when someone cannot enjoy content because people who have attitudes and hostility happen to had time to get into positions first.

I don’t think you’re incompetent, I think you’re a poor team player, difficult to manage, and likely to lead to group drama. This thread is a good example. You don’t mesh well with other raiders… and worse, you don’t seem to care about that. Or you think it’s our problem.

If you can’t play well in a team, it’s not crazy for the team to decide you don’t belong.

Wrong. I simply defending myself when met with hositility in this thread, I’m sorry you don’t like it when someone defends their opinions and experiences and simply cry out that this person is leading drama or a poor team player. Sorry you don’t get to insult others and not expect hostility back.

Had you actually been constructive instead of homing in on meta and defending it like a mindless sheep then maybe we could have gotten somewhere constructive.

10/10 Thread. Real nostalgia bomb.

Phoenix.1370:

It’s obvious that this is the problem with raids and the attitudes of the people involved. Hostile. Toxic. Exclusionary. Elitism.

Ironically instead of discussing the problems/potential solutions, majority of people here chose to instead home in on meta and defend it like mindless drones and assault/insult me over that instead of addressing the other issues, instead choosing to ignore other barriers I have outlined, showing the exact hostility and toxicity I have been pointing out is the problem.

Maybe 1 or 2 people actually tried to address the point but further met by multiple others assaulting or insulting. Guess this is the community now. What a shame.

It’s very clear from your responses that the one being hostile and toxic is you, not the raiders.

Until yesterday i was in a german teaching guild and they had the following small requirements:

• being open minded to feedback and to adjust your build accordingly on the options available and best for the team
• at least exotic armor with the proper runes (that is usually strength/scholar for raw dmg)
• asc trinkets (exotic for condi dmg is ok since vipers is hard to obtain)
• exotic/asc weapons with proper sigils

they had no requirements regarding classes/kills/experience, i saw exactly 1 kick because of someone refusing to change his build accordingly to what is best for the team, in the end he threw a tantrum because nobody invited him resulting in a kick.

If I were you i would change your mindset a little bit, i had someone ask me why i dont run Honor on a DH on matthias but virtues instead, i told them why and they accepted it. People refusing to play with you is most likely on you, because of your hostility

Wrong. It’s just your mindset. I happen to do perfectly fine on my own or with a team, you just have the mindset of everyone is incompetent and must follow your directions or they will not perform to standard.

if your team has no problem with you running what you are running, its okay.
doesn’t mean that the leader of another team has the same opinion.

if there is a training guild, wich also runs meta because they want to be most efficient, then you simply joined the wrong guild if you don’t want to meet their standarts regarding builds etc.

that still doesn’t mean they are toxic.
problem is often, if teammembers catches that one is slacking, then they see: oh thats okay, i can do some stuff too…and what happens fast? the whole team does it and the raid gets harder and kittentier from time to time.

i wanted to push my team as i came from the ones, wich did speedclearing before. so i like it, that we are fast and get the most dmg out of our teamcomp.
we had those “slackers” too…people like you (no offence, but in my view its slacking if you dont run most optimal), who had in my view (!) wrong bufffood, wrong utilities and wrong traits…also their rotation was kitten and they even confronted me with: my rotation is better or, my rotation is not as bad as you think, its just x lower dps.

what i did first was getting them down into math and what happens if you do 5k dps less and what happens if the whole team does it.
then i showed them on the dps golem what happens with killtime.

one was still being all about himself and how it is better and whatever, so i got rid of him. he was simply not made to be in my group from his mindsetting.

what happend in the whole time? our phasing time from valeguardian to the second phase skyrocket from 6:30 to 7:15.

my group was happy, because they found him a annoying anyways with his arguing, and also no one liked, that he was only there at monday for the kill and then didn’t really care about anything else.

so, whats the point of this? the point is: this has nothing to do with being toxic. neither he was toxic, nor was i.
its simple: join the players you like to play with, the same applys to training guilds / raid lfg guilds and pug groups.

if you see that they dont meet your mindset, just leave.
and again, that has nothing to do with being toxic and yeah, you have to accept that you are probably on the lower end of raiding in terms of finding group, because most like to run efficent.

Dominik.5162:

Phoenix.1370:

It’s obvious that this is the problem with raids and the attitudes of the people involved. Hostile. Toxic. Exclusionary. Elitism.

Ironically instead of discussing the problems/potential solutions, majority of people here chose to instead home in on meta and defend it like mindless drones and assault/insult me over that instead of addressing the other issues, instead choosing to ignore other barriers I have outlined, showing the exact hostility and toxicity I have been pointing out is the problem.

Maybe 1 or 2 people actually tried to address the point but further met by multiple others assaulting or insulting. Guess this is the community now. What a shame.

It’s very clear from your responses that the one being hostile and toxic is you, not the raiders.

Until yesterday i was in a german teaching guild and they had the following small requirements:

• being open minded to feedback and to adjust your build accordingly on the options available and best for the team
• at least exotic armor with the proper runes (that is usually strength/scholar for raw dmg)
• asc trinkets (exotic for condi dmg is ok since vipers is hard to obtain)
• exotic/asc weapons with proper sigils

they had no requirements regarding classes/kills/experience, i saw exactly 1 kick because of someone refusing to change his build accordingly to what is best for the team, in the end he threw a tantrum because nobody invited him resulting in a kick.

If I were you i would change your mindset a little bit, i had someone ask me why i dont run Honor on a DH on matthias but virtues instead, i told them why and they accepted it. People refusing to play with you is most likely on you, because of your hostility

Whatever. I have stated my experiences, met with hostility. Here and elsewhere.
The problem is the attitude of the people who raid. This is clear and the ones in on it do not see themselves.

Sorry I am not a mindless drone and refuse to be one in order to enjoy content. Change sure but people ignore that part, instead insist one way only and no discussion on it.

The community is evidently toxic and hostile to beginners in this field. Such a shame.

As I said, this thread is going nowhere as people again and again home in on only a tiny section of what I object to and take issue with and like sheep mindlessly defend it and insult anyone who dislikes meta. instead of addressing any other of my points, instead blame me without even attempting to read my other objections. Further evidence to the mindset and attitudes of those who raid. Maybe it’s for the best I don’t enjoy raids, especially if it turns people into hostile elitists.

Phoenix.1370:

Had you actually been constructive instead of homing in on meta and defending it like a mindless sheep then maybe we could have gotten somewhere constructive.

I’m not defending the meta at all. I’m explaining why you’re a high-risk player based on your attitude.

timmyf.1490:

Phoenix.1370:

Had you actually been constructive instead of homing in on meta and defending it like a mindless sheep then maybe we could have gotten somewhere constructive.

I’m not defending the meta at all. I’m explaining why you’re a high-risk player based on your attitude.

My attitude is fine, you just dislike it because I refuse to use meta.

I can change my build and adjust when asked to fit something, just don’texpect me to use meta, and boom hostility and defending meta because its the best blah blah. This is the problem.

Phoenix.1370:

Dominik.5162:

Phoenix.1370:

It’s obvious that this is the problem with raids and the attitudes of the people involved. Hostile. Toxic. Exclusionary. Elitism.

Ironically instead of discussing the problems/potential solutions, majority of people here chose to instead home in on meta and defend it like mindless drones and assault/insult me over that instead of addressing the other issues, instead choosing to ignore other barriers I have outlined, showing the exact hostility and toxicity I have been pointing out is the problem.

Maybe 1 or 2 people actually tried to address the point but further met by multiple others assaulting or insulting. Guess this is the community now. What a shame.

It’s very clear from your responses that the one being hostile and toxic is you, not the raiders.

Until yesterday i was in a german teaching guild and they had the following small requirements:

• being open minded to feedback and to adjust your build accordingly on the options available and best for the team
• at least exotic armor with the proper runes (that is usually strength/scholar for raw dmg)
• asc trinkets (exotic for condi dmg is ok since vipers is hard to obtain)
• exotic/asc weapons with proper sigils

they had no requirements regarding classes/kills/experience, i saw exactly 1 kick because of someone refusing to change his build accordingly to what is best for the team, in the end he threw a tantrum because nobody invited him resulting in a kick.

If I were you i would change your mindset a little bit, i had someone ask me why i dont run Honor on a DH on matthias but virtues instead, i told them why and they accepted it. People refusing to play with you is most likely on you, because of your hostility

Whatever. I have stated my experiences, met with hostility. Here and elsewhere.
The problem is the attitude of the people who raid. This is clear and the ones in on it do not see themselves.

Sorry I am not a mindless drone and refuse to be one in order to enjoy content. Change sure but people ignore that part, instead insist one way only and no discussion on it.

The community is evidently toxic and hostile to beginners in this field. Such a shame.

As I said, this thread is going nowhere as people again and again home in on only a tiny section of what I object to and take issue with and like sheep mindlessly defend it and insult anyone who dislikes meta. instead of addressing any other of my points, instead blame me without even attempting to read my other objections. Further evidence to the mindset and attitudes of those who raid. Maybe it’s for the best I don’t enjoy raids, especially if it turns people into hostile elitists.

Again, you are by far the most toxic and hostile person in this thread, proven just by this post and the one i quoted before.
You are the one insulting everybody who plays meta builds to be a mindless drone, but guess what, given your hostility and your toxic approach to people trying to help and explain you why people want meta builds in their raid, you are probably far worse of a player than these “mindless drones” will ever be.

Let’s ask first why raid leaders in a training run ask for a meta build.

If your joining a traing run as a new player. It’s logically that the raid leader can assume that you don’t have exp in the raid. Let’s take a situation that I had already training a groop myself I had 4 exp people and 6 new/inexperienced. If I need to explain every mechanic to everyone. That’s already a lot of work. If I then need to explain what’s best to take in your build to counter those mechanics for all 6 players then the explanation itself will take 2 hrs and then we didn’t even tried once. Leaders ask for meta build because those builds have been proven to be good. Raid leaders don’t have the time to discuss with you why you want something different then the meta build. because there are 8 other people waiting to raid. the meta is a good way and when you take a meta build. The raid leader is certain that your build is ok.
That’s why raid leaders ask for meta builds.

If I’m leading a traing run and someone comes to me and ask for traits etc on a rev. I’m going to link him the meta build. Why? Because I’m not playing revenant myself. I don’t know the traits out of my head. Al I have is my experienced with friends and other pugs and I know the meta build is a good build. Is it bad frome me pingen the meta build? or should I just open the meta build on a 2nd screen and read it to him? maybe it will be better for him because I can explain why you take certain traits. But then I’m letting 8 people wait to start raiding. If I can just say to people ok you take this build. When you need to cc you use your elite, axe, switch to staff and use staff cc ( I’m not sure if this is 100% correct but it’s an example) it will be a lot faster then explain that every cc skill has a certain cc damage and explaning that that rotation is the fastest way to do as much cc damage as possible. Yes your trying to train people. but sometimes when your the one who needs training its better to just to do what they ask. it will have his reasons and those reasons will clarify themselves or you can ask for them later. If he needs to explain everything all the time and you want to discuss it. There is no time for that in a traing run because your waisting the time of 8 other people.

i’d like to know where the hate of the meta comes from you.
because its not the build you invented?
because the build is better as yours (regarding to the content)?

meta in games say only one thing: this is the most optimal build for a certain strategy when you do content x.
in pve, or say raids, its mostly how can you push the dmg over the top, while still countering everything what rains down on your group and play the mechanics.

i mean, you said you even hate the meta in pvp. in a gamemode, where countering the enemy team is more of interest. if you play a build wich counters the enemy, and the enemy is playing meta, then over the time if people get curious and also playy your builds, because it counters most of the enemies, will be come the new meta.

sure, its also about wich one is the strongest atm etc.
sure, its also about the player behind it. like “wow, you stomped that meta noob”.
maybe this guy was a noob and started playing, but on the other hand, he made it himself easier because he played a meta build…any other build would have been a worse experience, cuz he probably would been destroyed by the enemy team.

…so, neverless, in pve you go against the ai.
so where does your hate come against the “meta”?
why is everyone a mindless drone because this person plays meta?

…i mean, as somebody already said, the raiders wich are here from the start and formed that meta together already had that builds in their minds, finetuning came over the few last months and is probably still happening.

you hate the meta because we want that newcomers have an easy way to get into raiding?
thats strange for you, as you are someone who is new to raiding.

you rather choose yourself over the team, if u get pinged a metabuild?
come on, not every raidleader had the knowledge of every class.
sure, somebody who plays every class for a long time and who have all the stuff in mind, can probably tell you everything and why you play like that.

but not every raidleader is like this.

Raids are not impossible for newcomers but they certainly are impossible and SHOULD BE impossible for people like you Phoenix.

Let me give you the perspective of a guild leader and raid leader about why people are responding to you the way they are.

I have a group of 10 people, who have allocated their time and resources to raiding for a night. These people have been given assurances that we are all likeminded and looking to work together to progress through content. People who are unwilling to play roles the raid needs, or wear gear appropriate for the DPS, healing, and tanking requirements of an encounter get benched. Why? Because they are not working for the team; they are saying ‘I am more important than 9 other people who have just as much right as I to be there’ . You in the same way that you defend your personalized builds, with all the fervor of a high schooler on summer break without a job and too much time on their hands, are signalling to all of us that you think you are more important than the rest of the raid team.

If your build is better than another explain why, show footage, or give math supporting your claim. Most people organizing raids or leading guilds should be able to follow along just fine. When someone tells you to change your build to synergize with someone else in the comp, don’t get kitteny and throw a fit like you have this entire thread.

The raid scene isn’t the problem; the problem is your attitude- and the sooner you pick up on that the sooner someone may be willing to waste their time and give you a a chance.

Phoenix.1370:

Rashy.4165

Not everyone has ascended, not easiest thing to get the specific ones, I happen to be lucky and got a decent few zerker ones for my rev along with weapons for him
Kinda unrealistic to some who do not have luck or pvp or has not tried fractals/raids before as they are usually more common from there apart from dung specific ones.

Doesn’t matter. Get whatever you can, and work towards the rest. Frankly, it’s easier to farm the gold and craft it if you’re not lucky with drops.

Phoenix.1370:

Again, this is circular. You need experience to get in, to get in your need experience. I have no such experience as I have yet to find a group to even make a first attempt. Hardly positive or helpful from community. “Oh sure, you can join in, as long as you have tried before”…not tried? SOL

I thought that too until I switched tactics.

Phoenix.1370:

The barriers I have listed are from around 15 or so groups I’ve attempted to join/contact all without sucess all requiring unrealistic requirments. Either this content you need to get REALLYlucky with or be part of an already helpful guild.

Keep searching. This took 5 minutes to find: https://www.reddit.com/r/guildrecruitment/comments/3ure9h/gw2euraidguild_looking_for_raiders_is_recruiting/

More results: https://www.reddit.com/r/guildrecruitment/search?q=%5BEU%5D+raid&restrict_sr=on&sort=relevance&t=all

Phoenix.1370:

What is optimal to one person may not be optimal to another. Playing with a build or weapon you are unfamiliar with and cannot perform up to standard with even if they are the most best thing in the world, will be detrimental to the team and be counter productive.

Raid builds are objectively optimal. Given players of equal skill, they’re the “gold standard”. If you’re unfamiliar with a build, practice it in the DPS testing arena, try to hit the DPS benchmarks. That’ll give you enough to get started in a group. The rest is situational (CC rotations, etc). There are only a handful of professions that are complex enough that there’s a huge difference between a beginner (at that profession) and someone experienced (Tempest, Chrono, and Druid to name a few; Daredevil is another profession that’s very simple on the surface, but takes good reflexes to play well). The rest are very easy to pick up with a few attempts at any boss.

Phoenix.1370:

I cannot even get in to try out the content in order to make correct adjustments to perform better due to the barriers I’ve experienced, I have no idea if the “meta” will be the best for me, I have a feeling it won’t. The barriers prevent me from trying/adapting or learning.

Start with the DPS testing arena – that has zero barriers. Then, skip PUGs. They’re useless for learning (in my experience). Go straight to dedicated raiding guilds and search for ones that welcome new members and do frequent learning raids.

If after all that, you still encounter barriers, then it’s a question of your attitude.

skarpak.8594

I dislike meta for various reasons. It breed this sort of attitude. It breed sloppy behavior, it breeds inability to understand your own professions, mindlessly use other peoples playstyles and that is all you get, mindless people.

I’ve grown sick of it in pvp over the years seeing EVERY proffesion run 1-2 builds at most with no diversity, no sense of challenge or experimentation. It breeds boredom and staleness in content. Raids are no different, it seems to just breed elitists and people wanting to complete content for the sake of completing it in the fastest/most effecient time instead of doing it for fun in interesting ways with builds and weapons each person enjoys.

People like that have no creativity and no desire to truely learn. I have no patience for it. People can be free to do it if they wish, don’t ask me to join in nor like it.

It’s not that you want newcomers to have an easier time, its you want people to play your way instead of your own. Like I said, teach them how to think, not what to think and they will grow better because of their own effort, not the efforts of others.

Phoenix.1370:

Dominik.5162

Whatever. I’m done talking. It’s obvious I cannot get through to certain people. Mindlessly defend meta more. Don’t know why I expected more from people, or an actual response to more than just meta.

This is all you have homed in on “meta meta meta meta” blatantly ignoring my other points. Sorry but idiots deserve to be called out. If you ignore my other points and harp on about just 1 point then you are an idiot mindlessly defending something you use instead of adressing the other points I made.

Something something toxicity, hostility.

This is all you have homed in on “meta meta meta meta” blatantly ignoring my other points. Sorry but idiots deserve to be called out. If you ignore my other points and harp on about just 1 point then you are an idiot mindlessly defending something you use instead of adressing the other points I made.

i also see only one toxic person here.

as others also said: those builds are backed up by math.
if something is overseen, pls recap this and back it up with math.

if its not better: your build is no meta build and doesn’t belong into a group wich wants meta.
if you don’t prove it at all and just say its better: nobody cares.

if you want a group without meta: find yourself one and don’T say all others are toxic who want to run meta.

nobody of them is a an idiot or a mindless drone. they actually work in team…far better then you do, because there starts the teamwork….getting a groupbuild together.

you lack that, and you also lack following a lead as it seems.
no wonder you have troubles and everyone else is toxic.

you, kind sir, are toxic and ignorant in every way.

basically everyone said: find yourself a group that doesnt want meta if you dislike it so much. its your problem to find one, not ours…we don’t have to change…neither do you.

but don’t try to trample over us without expecting a honest answer.

im starting to believe hes a good troll.
we got baited?

skarpak.8594:

im starting to believe hes a good troll.
we got baited?

Probably. Surprised the thread’s lasted this long.

Rashy.4165

It does matter if you are rejected if you are not up to the standards of others with items.

“switching tactics” will not sway the minds of people who expect experience when they don’t let you get experience.

Not everyone IS of equal skill level so you are making assumptions. They are subjectivly optimal.
Like I said, a stone thrown by a master will outperform a knife thrown by a amateur.
Anyone can stick a build on but chances are if they dont know how to use they will perform subpar.

“Go straight for raiding guilds” I’m not repeating myself why that is stupid.

And, we’re done.

Keep sticking to your own methods and not getting anywhere.

Like I said, a stone thrown by a master will outperform a knife thrown by a amateur.

the master would be quite an idiot if he has a better weapon at hand in a srs situation and still throws the stone. :S

btw. did you know, that in most guides there is a explanation why to use this and how to use this.
basically…every amateur and every bad player would totally outperform you with your stone, if you give him a meta build, tell him the rotation and what he has to do @ the raid boss.

edit: but well…better throw stones as master, even if you have knifes…you could be too good for your team. nvm.

skarpak.8594:

Like I said, a stone thrown by a master will outperform a knife thrown by a amateur.

the master would be quite an idiot if he has a better weapon at hand in a srs situation and still throws the stone. :S

btw. did you know, that in most guides there is a explanation why to use this and how to use this.
basically…every amateur and every bad player would totally outperform you with your stone, if you give him a meta build, tell him the rotation and what he has to do @ the raid boss.

I know the opposite is true. Frequently I run into mindless meta drones who stick the build on and enter pvp, they are so easy to point out and defeat even in 1v1. I’ve not actually died to a 1v1 in pvp for quite some time vs meta drones, predictible, boring, and breeds incompetence. How exactly is this good?
Even in other games I’ve beaten far superior builds/characters/weaponry with joke weapons or stupidly weak weapons. What matters is who is using a build and what they can do, not the build itself, you need both.

skarpak.8594:

Like I said, a stone thrown by a master will outperform a knife thrown by a amateur.

the master would be quite an idiot if he has a better weapon at hand in a srs situation and still throws the stone. :S

btw. did you know, that in most guides there is a explanation why to use this and how to use this.
basically…every amateur and every bad player would totally outperform you with your stone, if you give him a meta build, tell him the rotation and what he has to do @ the raid boss.

edit: but well…better throw stones as master, even if you have knifes…you could be too good for your team. nvm.

You missed the point. If someone can perform better than “meta” without using it and use things they desire to use, then why should they be penalized? What matters is the person not the build/weapons one chooses.

So many people completely ignorant to the point of this thread and instead harp on about meta this and meta that. trying to assault for for disliking mindless meta drones. Whatever
I’m done with this thread, I’m obviously not going to get through to you people.

Hopefully things change and the toxic players move on. I’m dissapointed at the people in this community.

Such a shame so many homed in on meta and ignored everything else like I wounded them deeply because of my dislike of meta. Pathetic.

if you are such a good player, you can definitly tell us what a protection rotation on revenant is, why you don’t keep up the might facet, why u should never drop f2 and why you can only use sword skill 2 two times if you don’t run the protection rotation.

just telling you…being good and knowing all classes makes you not a good raid player of the bat.
i can tell you from my view, i know all classes, know their rotations and their job in raids…but i would never say, i am so knowlegeable with all classes to create a pvp or wvw build.
i would go down there into the meta and see how and why, because just by knowing all traits and weaponskills, doesn’t make me aware whats needed.

most people of the raid community…or say those who formed the meta, where already in groupcontent, speedrunning and also into math to get the best out of a group.
that just got applied to raids and improved for raids, since you have 10 man there and also need to take other stuff into account as in dungeons / fractals.

they or we know this stuff. we soloed pve content, we soloed that stuff with time in mind, we runned low mans and we got so much exp out of it.

so, you still didn’t answer my question, why is the meta bad for you?
why do you see it as a bad thing for you…or more: why don’t YOU want the best build there is for you AND the group?

Phoenix.1370:

So many people completely ignorant to the point of this thread and instead harp on about meta this and meta that. trying to assault for for disliking mindless meta drones. Whatever
I’m done with this thread, I’m obviously not going to get through to you people.

Hopefully things change and the toxic players move on. I’m dissapointed at the people in this community.

Such a shame so many homed in on meta and ignored everything else like I wounded them deeply because of my dislike of meta. Pathetic.

Your point was washed away by a torrent of insults and insinuations.

Next time, try a more neutral approach.

I’d like to weigh in on the importance of meta and if other builds can be run in raids. In short, other build can be run, but this sort of experimentation is best done in static groups that already have mechanics down. Experimentation is how the meta is formed. For example, one build that has recently become more popular is the warrior PS/condi build. If nobody experimented, then nobody would have tried to run a PS build without greatsword. (It has a different role since it doesn’t get to 25 might on its own, but it still has a place in some groups)

Also, blindly following build on metabattle or similar sites is usually a bad idea. Although some builds like the typical PS warrior don’t change much between encounters, necro changes greatly, sometimes not even running reaper. I would argue that they are still doing ‘meta’ even though they might only have 1/3 traitlines the same as metabattle because they are doing what is generally accepted by the community as ‘optimal’.

In general, you do not need to use exactly what the ‘meta’ is according to sites like metabattle. Instead you should figure out what role you are trying to fill and then use the meta builds as a starting point, fine-tuning for each encounter. However it is important to min/max that role to the best of your ability. Many experienced raiders have had wipes with the boss within .1% of death, which is why they are so unreceptive to things that might decrease dps or change things in some other way.

I also recommend talking to people about your build decisions. If people want you to switch to weapon X, ask why and what it brings to the team. People have a habit of not explaining the why, but there usually is a good reason. If you are really not having fun playing what people want on that profession (maybe you hate warrior gs or something), it might be fun to try out some other professions. If you can find a profession where the meta build is fun to play for you, that might be a good way to get into a group that will later be ok with you experimenting.

I hope you find your niche.

[quote=6234591;skarpak.8594:
so, you still didn’t answer my question, why is the meta bad for you?
why do you see it as a bad thing for you…or more: why don’t YOU want the best build there is for you AND the group?[/quote]

Because it isn´t always fun to play your class effectively. Just branch out to wvw for a moment, everyone plays a roamer warrior in only one way, a hard hitting guy that can run away as fast as nearly nobody else when the tide turns against him.
Effective? Yes. Fun? Ehm…

On the other hand, you can´t play a raid with a fun armor, that should be very obvious.

Phoenix.1370:

So many people completely ignorant to the point of this thread and instead harp on about meta this and meta that. trying to assault for for disliking mindless meta drones. Whatever
I’m done with this thread, I’m obviously not going to get through to you people.

Hopefully things change and the toxic players move on. I’m dissapointed at the people in this community.

Such a shame so many homed in on meta and ignored everything else like I wounded them deeply because of my dislike of meta. Pathetic.

If you didn’t want people to discuss pros/cons of meta builds then you probably shouldn’t have mentioned them in the OP.

The main question you posed has an easy answer anyway and doesn’t need much discussion. If you want to get into raids as a newcomer you should join a guild that does raids, get in on training runs, or find some people that are also newer to learn the fights with (i.e. make your own group). Whether those things are “difficult” or not is a matter of opinion I suppose, but that’s really just what you have to do.

Joining a guild is probably the easiest way if you don’t mind the rep requirements. This thread on reddit has a directory of raids that do training runs.

There’s not much else to it. Good luck.

i don’t say you got no point toro…but as a newcomer who wants to get exp you shouldn’t take the hardest way there is also with the rest of the group in mind.

you can do that, when your group is steady enough.
thats at least what i think.

If he wants to raid as he wants why doesn’t OP start his own group, oh right that takes initiative…

He clearly shows he can’t take constructive criticism or work well with others and won’t start his own raid groups to counter his perceived slights at being accepted into raids,
but bright side I have had a lot of laughs reading this.

Phoenix.1370:

It’s obvious that this is the problem with raids and the attitudes of the people involved. Hostile. Toxic. Exclusionary. Elitism.

Phoenix.1370:

I don’t want people to cater to me. I want the community to be less hostile and toxic against people who have no experience in the content or don’t wish to follow meta to the letter.

Well this goes both ways. You’ve been pretty hostile to pretty much everybody that’s been trying to discuss this with you.

There are people who are willing to go through the mechanics of raids and teach new people. I’ve been part of those groups and explained as much as possible and answered any and all questions. Is it an issue that some so called training groups don’t explain? Yes. I’ve been told that after multiple attempted training runs that I was the first one that actually explained things to them. Most people consider training runs just practice runs. If you want to go over mechanics of each boss, let me know. I’m perfectly willing to help out. Unfortunately, I’m on NA so any assistance would only be through voice comms and basically be a question and answer.

As for your build, as long as you have Glint and can rotate in and out of it well, your other legendary is basically going to be whatever you need for the fight. Bringing Shiro seems to be an odd choice as the main draw of Shiro is the self quickness which is already provided by the Mesmer during raids. Is it going to wreck a run if you run it? No but most raid groups will find it weird to run Shiro unless for some specific issues like simplifying the mortar mechanic on the Trio.

As far as people constantly referring to the meta. People use the term “meta” for the commonly run builds that have been shown to be effective. For most of the meta builds, there’s reasons to bring specific traits and weapon sets for each boss and a lot of this has been discovered through theorycrafting and then putting it to the test and then tweaking in raids by guilds that have put numerous hours into testing. Are you going to fail the raid because you’re not running that stuff? No you will not but if you’re joining a training group, it definitely helps because whoever’s running the group will know what he has available to him.

I believe the title is misleading. Raiding is quite possible for newcomers who show a willingness to learn and realize when and where certain abilities and skills are optimal for any given encounter, and what doesn’t work.

It should have instead read: “Raids now impossible for Newcomers with an Ego”.

How arrogant do you have to be to think you know everything about any content without first experiencing it? That you think you would be more effective, that you would serve a more practical use than what is out there?

I can take any newbies into a VG kill any given day of the week provided they know what they have to bring with their given profession. Some might pick it up faster than others, while a few might take much longer to get into form. As long as they show initiative to adapt, learn the strategies, be in the right place at the right time and so forth I am always willing to take new potential raiders into raids.

I’ve just had a two hour in game conversation with the OP via whispers and quote "being the “nice one” typically doesn’t get you anywhere in life". On responding to me asking him why he thinks its ok to be a kittenbag, he responded with “why wouldn’kitten it works more often for most cases on aand off game”.

I tried giving an example of him getting a new job with no experience and being the guy that tells his boss that he can do his job better than the boss and he replied back that he’s done that and it provides new perspective to his boss.

The entire conversation summed up to him saying not playing friendly with people and being a jerk is more productive and meta builds aren’t good to him because he personally didn’t test or come up with them and he doesn’t wan to run them.

If anyone want screenshots of the conversation, I’m willing to provide.

“I want to be part of your team, but I got my own rules and I got my own uniform”.

As much as I dislike the meta approach, you are part of a team and even moreso than dungeons, there are actually roles that NEED to be filled in raids for success. I can see why doing what you want in a 10 person team environment like that is a barrier for the OP. Individual performance in that environment is critical to success. Raids are a step above what dungeons ever were.

So impossible for newcomers? Not really. Difficult for people that don’t adapt their play philosophy? Guaranteed.

I miss threads like this.

Top quality entertainment.

Enko.6123:

I’ve just had a two hour in game conversation with the OP via whispers and quote "being the “nice one” typically doesn’t get you anywhere in life". On responding to me asking him why he thinks its ok to be a kittenbag, he responded with “why wouldn’kitten it works more often for most cases on aand off game”.

I tried giving an example of him getting a new job with no experience and being the guy that tells his boss that he can do his job better than the boss and he replied back that he’s done that and it provides new perspective to his boss.

The entire conversation summed up to him saying not playing friendly with people and being a jerk is more productive and meta builds aren’t good to him because he personally didn’t test or come up with them and he doesn’t wan to run them.

If anyone want screenshots of the conversation, I’m willing to provide.

Literally none of this surprises me.