Guild Wars 2

So is this the infamous forum bug? Bleh

Ensign.2189:

Cynz.9437:

problem is not even dmg, thief can do it (may be not the highest dmg but it is not lowest)

This was true pre-expansion but isn’t true anymore. For raids and fractals thief is now the lowest damage class in the game.

This is false. Thief is not the lowest damage class in the game at all.

Skoigoth.9238:

I doubt raids will be beatable by PuGs though, so min-maxed group compositions most likely will be a thing.

Same was said about tequalt and triple wurm

Once megaservers came and everyone had the opportunity to learn it was proven wrong very quickly

JVJD.4912:

Skoigoth.9238:

I doubt raids will be beatable by PuGs though, so min-maxed group compositions most likely will be a thing.

Same was said about tequalt and triple wurm

Once megaservers came and everyone had the opportunity to learn it was proven wrong very quickly

Maybe I should have formulated clearer, what I meant is: I don’t think PuGs will be able to beat the respectively lasted raid wing right away. Once people have figured stuff out and had the chance to learn the encounters etc.etc., sure, raids will reach farm status eventually I guess.

As for teq, triple trouble and the like, I don’t think you can compare open world stuff to raids tbh, especially when it comes to min-maxing. Way too much variance between groups and much harder to “police” people in 90-100 player events imo.

i dont know whats wrong with some people did you even play daredevil and looked at the numbers?
hint:
look at this 2 skills heartseeker wich was the skill that made thief dps go to insane levels below 25% of bosses before HoT and now look at weakening charge noticing anything? on top of that you get 7% 10% 10% modifiers at the loss of a 1-15% modifier.

@perry, Thief used to be my second main class (now Rev has occupied that spot more or less) and I don’t think damage is the problem with daredevil at all. I think the problem is that the spec doesn’t offer much beyond that, it doesn’t really add anything substantial or unique in terms of utility to the core spec.

JVJD.4912:

Skoigoth.9238:

I doubt raids will be beatable by PuGs though, so min-maxed group compositions most likely will be a thing.

Same was said about tequalt and triple wurm

Once megaservers came and everyone had the opportunity to learn it was proven wrong very quickly

Triple Worm still fails with almost every PuG.
Tequatl was nerfed.

for Basilisk venom ? yes !

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

This is false. Thief is not the lowest damage class in the game at all.

Every class has a build that has a higher sustained DPS than a max DPS thief in fractals and raids.

I will give you that mesmer is close, especially since it is so hard to get max DPS out of a mesmer – need to get 3 phantasms up ASAP and not have them get killed – but every other class can out-perform a thief damage-wise without much difficulty.

SirMoogie.9263:

[

EcoRI.9273:

Here is a list of why I think Engie is just better.

“Better” does not mean “necessary” or “only choice”. The original question is about thieves having a place, not thieves being the best at one particular thing.

Engie is like the iPhone 6s and Thief is like the iPhone 5. When both cost the same, which would you choose?

EcoRI.9273:

SirMoogie.9263:

[

EcoRI.9273:

Here is a list of why I think Engie is just better.

“Better” does not mean “necessary” or “only choice”. The original question is about thieves having a place, not thieves being the best at one particular thing.

Engie is like the iPhone 6s and Thief is like the iPhone 5. When both cost the same, which would you choose?

If you are hipster you buy a Nokia 3100 (aka Necro). Not super useful in this day and age, but it gets the job done and is impossible to destroy

EcoRI.9273:

Engie is like the iPhone 6s and Thief is like the iPhone 5. When both cost the same, which would you choose?

People aren’t products. I would choose my guild mates, who are also my friends.

EcoRI.9273:

SirMoogie.9263:

[

EcoRI.9273:

Here is a list of why I think Engie is just better.

“Better” does not mean “necessary” or “only choice”. The original question is about thieves having a place, not thieves being the best at one particular thing.

Engie is like the iPhone 6s and Thief is like the iPhone 5. When both cost the same, which would you choose?

It’s more like a laptop vs a desktop of the same price.

One’s more powerful, the other is more mobile. It depends on what your need is.

Ensign.2189:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

This is false. Thief is not the lowest damage class in the game at all.

Every class has a build that has a higher sustained DPS than a max DPS thief in fractals and raids.

I will give you that mesmer is close, especially since it is so hard to get max DPS out of a mesmer – need to get 3 phantasms up ASAP and not have them get killed – but every other class can out-perform a thief damage-wise without much difficulty.

It’s too early to tell for raids seeing as we don’t know what all the bosses do. But for lower lvl to medium range fractals thief DPS is pretty good and isn’t even close to a mesmer lvl. For higher lvl fractals condition damage builds become king. I don’t know how condition damage thief compares to say ele condition damage build or a revenant condition damage build, but I’d still imagine a thief would be ahead of at least the ele. My point is a blanket statement that thief is the worst damage class in fractals and raids is extremely false especially with the introduction of daredevil. Never thought someone would compare thieves DPS to around a mesmers >.<

SirMoogie.9263:

EcoRI.9273:

Engie is like the iPhone 6s and Thief is like the iPhone 5. When both cost the same, which would you choose?

People aren’t products.

You wouldn’t last a minute at the Republican debate with that kind of anti-business attitude.

NikeEU.7690:

You wouldn’t last a minute at the Republican debate with that kind of anti-business attitude.

And look at how crushed I am.

SirMoogie.9263:

NikeEU.7690:

You wouldn’t last a minute at the Republican debate with that kind of anti-business attitude.

And look at how crushed I am.

So crushed you’re looking a pale white colour

Eponet.4829:

EcoRI.9273:

SirMoogie.9263:

[

EcoRI.9273:

Here is a list of why I think Engie is just better.

“Better” does not mean “necessary” or “only choice”. The original question is about thieves having a place, not thieves being the best at one particular thing.

Engie is like the iPhone 6s and Thief is like the iPhone 5. When both cost the same, which would you choose?

It’s more like a laptop vs a desktop of the same price.

One’s more powerful, the other is more mobile. It depends on what your need is.

Except Mesmer is better at mobility in PvE so if you really needed mobility for encounters, chronomancers would be the go to. So Thief is like the macbook pro i5 and Mesmer is like macbook pro i7(alacrity buff, quickness buff) and both are at the same price, which would you choose?

Kyle.5931:

Thieves’s Headshots is useful for breaking defiance bar as boss doesn’t die after hp goes 0(at least for Vale guardian and its’ splits), you need to break the bar immediately to ‘officially’ kill it.)

Have you tried headshot lately? Get yourself tied up to one of those Chak Bracers and see how frustrating that little 0.25s daze is against their defiance bar.

EcoRI.9273:

Eponet.4829:

EcoRI.9273:

SirMoogie.9263:

[

EcoRI.9273:

Here is a list of why I think Engie is just better.

“Better” does not mean “necessary” or “only choice”. The original question is about thieves having a place, not thieves being the best at one particular thing.

Engie is like the iPhone 6s and Thief is like the iPhone 5. When both cost the same, which would you choose?

It’s more like a laptop vs a desktop of the same price.

One’s more powerful, the other is more mobile. It depends on what your need is.

Except Mesmer is better at mobility in PvE so if you really needed mobility for encounters, chronomancers would be the go to. So Thief is like the macbook pro i5 and Mesmer is like macbook pro i7(alacrity buff, quickness buff) and both are at the same price, which would you choose?

Mesmer is not better at mobility. Daredevil is by far the fastest spec in the game between infilrator’s arrow, unhindered combatant, shadowstep, steal, inflitrator’s signet, and endurance recovery. The only time that mesmer can manage to match it is in the portal, which requires that they be set up ahead of time.

If there’s a set of randomised points that need to be reached in short periods of time, a good daredevil could very well cover twice the ground of anyone else, meaning an extra body elsewhere.

Plus, again, steal is a great mechanic for balancing thieves for specific encounters. If thief is terrible in one fight, they can be given a really overpowered steal skill when using it on that particular boss.

Cheby Shev.4671:

Kyle.5931:

Thieves’s Headshots is useful for breaking defiance bar as boss doesn’t die after hp goes 0(at least for Vale guardian and its’ splits), you need to break the bar immediately to ‘officially’ kill it.)

Have you tried headshot lately? Get yourself tied up to one of those Chak Bracers and see how frustrating that little 0.25s daze is against their defiance bar.

The new Daredevil Utilities are far better at it, Fist Flurry has a 2s Stun on the second activation and Impact Strike has a 2s daze aswell as a launch.

I think problem is not who would play thief.

But what raid group that wants to win, would let you play thief.

Or rather, what group would not be only Guardian/Ele/Mesmer + “Tanks” + “Healers” which are in those 3 as well.

If raids are all about synergy why would you take any other class other than those 3? Maybe warrior for tank and ranger for heal, but very specific jobs for specific fights, the core will always be those 3, mostly guardian/ele, mesmer is just there for the niche.

JPUlisses.8756:

I think problem is not who would play thief.

But what raid group that wants to win, would let you play thief.

Or rather, what group would not be only Guardian/Ele/Mesmer + “Tanks” + “Healers” which are in those 3 as well.

If raids are all about synergy why would you take any other class other than those 3? Maybe warrior for tank and ranger for heal, but very specific jobs for specific fights, the core will always be those 3, mostly guardian/ele, mesmer is just there for the niche.

You’re absolutely right. Nobody will bring warriors or revenants to raids.

JPUlisses.8756:

I think problem is not who would play thief.

But what raid group that wants to win, would let you play thief.

Or rather, what group would not be only Guardian/Ele/Mesmer + “Tanks” + “Healers” which are in those 3 as well.

If raids are all about synergy why would you take any other class other than those 3? Maybe warrior for tank and ranger for heal, but very specific jobs for specific fights, the core will always be those 3, mostly guardian/ele, mesmer is just there for the niche.

Revs have better buffing in glint. Warriors have massive unique buffs, rangers have large unique buffs(ranger also has strong heals). Engi has the deeps. Thief has mobility, but chronos have better group mobility with being able to drop so many portals, so it depends on if you need 1 person there really really quickly, or your whole group there moderately quickly.

1. from what i saw, fights are time gated, you will WANT best setup you can get so you can actually finish fight on first place
2. thief doesn’t bring anything to raids/group besides mediocre dmg

Thus, besides some rare exceptions, thieves won’t see raids.

The biggest problem for thief is that they don’t scale with alacrity. This means that without alacrity they could be competitive, but other classes will gain a drastic amount of damage while thieves have no change.

Really, Anet just needs to implement alacrity and chill affecting initiative recharge rates already. This should have been done a long time ago (for chill anyway), and is even more important now that there’s a positive counterpart to chill.

Eponet.4829:

JVJD.4912:

Skoigoth.9238:

I doubt raids will be beatable by PuGs though, so min-maxed group compositions most likely will be a thing.

Same was said about tequalt and triple wurm

Once megaservers came and everyone had the opportunity to learn it was proven wrong very quickly

Triple Worm still fails with almost every PuG.
Tequatl was nerfed.

Pls tell me what was nerfed for Teq.

Fay.2357:

The biggest problem for thief is that they don’t scale with alacrity. This means that without alacrity they could be competitive, but other classes will gain a drastic amount of damage while thieves have no change.

Really, Anet just needs to implement alacrity and chill affecting initiative recharge rates already. This should have been done a long time ago (for chill anyway), and is even more important now that there’s a positive counterpart to chill.

:O didnt realize this! Thats a big nerf for thief imo, since at least 1 chronomancer will see play in raids.

roelvanesch.2817:

Fay.2357:

The biggest problem for thief is that they don’t scale with alacrity. This means that without alacrity they could be competitive, but other classes will gain a drastic amount of damage while thieves have no change.

Really, Anet just needs to implement alacrity and chill affecting initiative recharge rates already. This should have been done a long time ago (for chill anyway), and is even more important now that there’s a positive counterpart to chill.

:O didnt realize this! Thats a big nerf for thief imo, since at least 1 chronomancer will see play in raids.

It is not a nerf, it is oversight… like everything else that has something to do with thief (see magnet fix but no scrop wire fix, see promised in patches 10% buff to heal for withdraw that was never implemented, actual nerf to improvisation when they included physical skills to it etc.)

Cynz.9437:

roelvanesch.2817:

Fay.2357:

The biggest problem for thief is that they don’t scale with alacrity. This means that without alacrity they could be competitive, but other classes will gain a drastic amount of damage while thieves have no change.

Really, Anet just needs to implement alacrity and chill affecting initiative recharge rates already. This should have been done a long time ago (for chill anyway), and is even more important now that there’s a positive counterpart to chill.

:O didnt realize this! Thats a big nerf for thief imo, since at least 1 chronomancer will see play in raids.

It is not a nerf, it is oversight… like everything else that has something to do with thief (see magnet fix but no scrop wire fix, see promised in patches 10% buff to heal for withdraw that was never implemented, actual nerf to improvisation when they included physical skills to it etc.)

I do mean an unintentional one of course.

Just saying comparing Mesmer to Thief is incredibly stupid. It’s pretty much going to be a guarantee that any team actually trying for progression will have multiple Chronomancers because of how good alacrity and quickness are. Mesmers could do 0 damage and people would still bring them.

As for thieves their DPS is very low but I still think they will possibly be the best tanks. I can’t think of another class that has anywhere near the active mitigation of Daredevil.

Can you guys pls do calculations before you say thief has low dps?

Thief, low dps.

I think I’ve read everything I can’t expect for now.

MasterBlaster.6827:

Can you guys pls do calculations before you say thief has low dps?

if i recall correctly some calculations been done by DnT and co.

so because thiefs role can in some extend be done by engi, thief suddenly does less dps than necro? i fail to see the logic of some people

Cynz.9437:

MasterBlaster.6827:

Can you guys pls do calculations before you say thief has low dps?

if i recall correctly some calculations been done by DnT and co.

I have never seen any numbers so far, and even if, according to DnT D/D and Staff do same dmg, so i won’t believe it anyways.

MasterBlaster.6827:

Cynz.9437:

MasterBlaster.6827:

Can you guys pls do calculations before you say thief has low dps?

if i recall correctly some calculations been done by DnT and co.

I have never seen any numbers so far, and even if, according to DnT D/D and Staff do same dmg, so i won’t believe it anyways.

Just did some testing of my own. It seems like staff power daredevil has the best DPS for thief and it’s a bit lower than reaper. I really don’t see why you would bring thief as DPS though since it’s very low and doesn’t bring a lot of group utility. I’m sticking to my point that Daredevil has the most active mitigation of any class/spec through evade spam and it’s going to be a top tier tank if all you need to hold aggro is toughness.

I suppose it might also be good to bring one since they spam combos so well. You have constant blast finishers from pounce and a choice of whirl/leap finishers from your staff DPS abilities although it seems like the 5 results in higher DPS than the 2. Might just be because the third hit is missing on the golem sometimes.

Here are my thoughts:

1. Thief has no utilities
I don’t know who spread the lie about thief having so many utilities because apparently a lot of people think so. As far as I know, they only have smoke field for blind and stealth, but now even a ranger can provide smoke field, making them no longer unique. Ranger has lots of damage modifier, thief has none. Engineer undoubtedly is the most versatile class since they can do anything very well. ok, ranger may not be good for blind and stealth, but engineer definitely can do it just as well. The other thing thief has is mobility. But again, if I want mobility, I’d rather have a mesmer that can create a portal for the entire group or elementalist that can provide FGS. As for CC, the system has changed to break bar, there is no more reason to have a dedicated class for defiance stripping, all people just need to spam CC on cooldown.

2. DPS?
I don’t know about numbers, so i won’t make any claim here, but the problem is alacrity. Thief DPS doesn’t increase with alacrity due to the initiative they have, while engineer’s DPS will be greatly increased.

But that doesn’t mean that thief is useless, I believe they are still really good in short fights (dungeons and low level fractal). In long fights (high level fractal and raid), their DPS is simply outclassed by other professions (not just engineer), due to alacrity.

Mallis.4295:

MasterBlaster.6827:

Cynz.9437:

MasterBlaster.6827:

Can you guys pls do calculations before you say thief has low dps?

if i recall correctly some calculations been done by DnT and co.

I have never seen any numbers so far, and even if, according to DnT D/D and Staff do same dmg, so i won’t believe it anyways.

Just did some testing of my own. It seems like staff power daredevil has the best DPS for thief and it’s a bit lower than reaper. I really don’t see why you would bring thief as DPS though since it’s very low and doesn’t bring a lot of group utility. I’m sticking to my point that Daredevil has the most active mitigation of any class/spec through evade spam and it’s going to be a top tier tank if all you need to hold aggro is toughness.

I suppose it might also be good to bring one since they spam combos so well. You have constant blast finishers from pounce and a choice of whirl/leap finishers from your staff DPS abilities although it seems like the 5 results in higher DPS than the 2. Might just be because the third hit is missing on the golem sometimes.

Your test won’t say much until you tell us the conditions you used, cause they have to be equal, meaning solosetting are not accurate at all for this comparision.

Thief got a pretty nice boost to overall DPS regardless of which weapon you use. Unfortunately, almost every other class got a boost that was almost twice as much as what the Thief got.

Eponet.4829:

JVJD.4912:

Skoigoth.9238:

I doubt raids will be beatable by PuGs though, so min-maxed group compositions most likely will be a thing.

Same was said about tequalt and triple wurm

Once megaservers came and everyone had the opportunity to learn it was proven wrong very quickly

Triple Worm still fails with almost every PuG.
Tequatl was nerfed.

Teq was never nerfed and was pugged the same day mega servers was up so i don’t get “pugs beat him because was nerfed gag”
And as for triple wurm it was beaten by random ppl with no voice coms with no min maxing of any sort despite the elitist saying and i quote “Impossible”

Skoigoth.9238:

JVJD.4912:

Skoigoth.9238:

I doubt raids will be beatable by PuGs though, so min-maxed group compositions most likely will be a thing.

Same was said about tequalt and triple wurm

Once megaservers came and everyone had the opportunity to learn it was proven wrong very quickly

Maybe I should have formulated clearer, what I meant is: I don’t think PuGs will be able to beat the respectively lasted raid wing right away. Once people have figured stuff out and had the chance to learn the encounters etc.etc., sure, raids will reach farm status eventually I guess.

As for teq, triple trouble and the like, I don’t think you can compare open world stuff to raids tbh, especially when it comes to min-maxing. Way too much variance between groups and much harder to “police” people in 90-100 player events imo.

If thats truely your opinion then raids getting legendary armor would be unfair to the player base

Maybe if alacrity were to increase initiative regen dd could be an awesome tank. Multiple weapon skills can provide constant evasion (staff best most likely) and alacrity might just make it possible to maintain the evasion basically forever.

MasterBlaster.6827:

Mallis.4295:

MasterBlaster.6827:

Cynz.9437:

MasterBlaster.6827:

Can you guys pls do calculations before you say thief has low dps?

if i recall correctly some calculations been done by DnT and co.

I have never seen any numbers so far, and even if, according to DnT D/D and Staff do same dmg, so i won’t believe it anyways.

Just did some testing of my own. It seems like staff power daredevil has the best DPS for thief and it’s a bit lower than reaper. I really don’t see why you would bring thief as DPS though since it’s very low and doesn’t bring a lot of group utility. I’m sticking to my point that Daredevil has the most active mitigation of any class/spec through evade spam and it’s going to be a top tier tank if all you need to hold aggro is toughness.

I suppose it might also be good to bring one since they spam combos so well. You have constant blast finishers from pounce and a choice of whirl/leap finishers from your staff DPS abilities although it seems like the 5 results in higher DPS than the 2. Might just be because the third hit is missing on the golem sometimes.

Your test won’t say much until you tell us the conditions you used, cause they have to be equal, meaning solosetting are not accurate at all for this comparision.

Condi thief is nowhere near good in PvE. Even with venomshare it’s not worth using unless it’s just for fun. It does about half the damage DD staff does solo and venomshare isn’t going to make that up.

Mallis.4295:

MasterBlaster.6827:

Mallis.4295:

MasterBlaster.6827:

Cynz.9437:

MasterBlaster.6827:

Can you guys pls do calculations before you say thief has low dps?

if i recall correctly some calculations been done by DnT and co.

I have never seen any numbers so far, and even if, according to DnT D/D and Staff do same dmg, so i won’t believe it anyways.

Just did some testing of my own. It seems like staff power daredevil has the best DPS for thief and it’s a bit lower than reaper. I really don’t see why you would bring thief as DPS though since it’s very low and doesn’t bring a lot of group utility. I’m sticking to my point that Daredevil has the most active mitigation of any class/spec through evade spam and it’s going to be a top tier tank if all you need to hold aggro is toughness.

I suppose it might also be good to bring one since they spam combos so well. You have constant blast finishers from pounce and a choice of whirl/leap finishers from your staff DPS abilities although it seems like the 5 results in higher DPS than the 2. Might just be because the third hit is missing on the golem sometimes.

Your test won’t say much until you tell us the conditions you used, cause they have to be equal, meaning solosetting are not accurate at all for this comparision.

Condi thief is nowhere near good in PvE. Even with venomshare it’s not worth using unless it’s just for fun. It does about half the damage DD staff does solo and venomshare isn’t going to make that up.

No one is talking about a venom share thief, he wants to know which assumptions you made in your damage calculations that gives you the impression that thief DPS is low.

conditions = circumstances

NeoVaris.4806:

Mallis.4295:

MasterBlaster.6827:

Mallis.4295:

MasterBlaster.6827:

Cynz.9437:

MasterBlaster.6827:

Can you guys pls do calculations before you say thief has low dps?

if i recall correctly some calculations been done by DnT and co.

I have never seen any numbers so far, and even if, according to DnT D/D and Staff do same dmg, so i won’t believe it anyways.

Just did some testing of my own. It seems like staff power daredevil has the best DPS for thief and it’s a bit lower than reaper. I really don’t see why you would bring thief as DPS though since it’s very low and doesn’t bring a lot of group utility. I’m sticking to my point that Daredevil has the most active mitigation of any class/spec through evade spam and it’s going to be a top tier tank if all you need to hold aggro is toughness.

I suppose it might also be good to bring one since they spam combos so well. You have constant blast finishers from pounce and a choice of whirl/leap finishers from your staff DPS abilities although it seems like the 5 results in higher DPS than the 2. Might just be because the third hit is missing on the golem sometimes.

Your test won’t say much until you tell us the conditions you used, cause they have to be equal, meaning solosetting are not accurate at all for this comparision.

Condi thief is nowhere near good in PvE. Even with venomshare it’s not worth using unless it’s just for fun. It does about half the damage DD staff does solo and venomshare isn’t going to make that up.

No one is talking about a venom share thief, he wants to know which assumptions you made in your damage calculations that gives you the impression that thief DPS is low.

They aren’t calculations it’s called extended DPS parsing on the test golems with multiple builds. DD staff was the highest. Still a bit lower than Reaper. Probably higher then mesmer but they bring the best DPS support of any class by far. There just doesn’t seem to be a reason to take thieves outside of stealth or tanking.

I mean I don’t really see a reason to bring Reaper at all right now unless they are good tanks for some reason. I only broght up reaper because iirc the person asking about why thief DPS was considered low was responding to someone saying it was lower than Reaper. I don’t think reaper will be as good as Thief/Guard/Rev for tanking though. Mesmers can cover boon stripping and everyone has loads of free vuln. Necro is the least desirable class for raids right now I think.

Mallis.4295:

NeoVaris.4806:

Mallis.4295:

MasterBlaster.6827:

Mallis.4295:

MasterBlaster.6827:

Cynz.9437:

MasterBlaster.6827:

Can you guys pls do calculations before you say thief has low dps?

if i recall correctly some calculations been done by DnT and co.

I have never seen any numbers so far, and even if, according to DnT D/D and Staff do same dmg, so i won’t believe it anyways.

Just did some testing of my own. It seems like staff power daredevil has the best DPS for thief and it’s a bit lower than reaper. I really don’t see why you would bring thief as DPS though since it’s very low and doesn’t bring a lot of group utility. I’m sticking to my point that Daredevil has the most active mitigation of any class/spec through evade spam and it’s going to be a top tier tank if all you need to hold aggro is toughness.

I suppose it might also be good to bring one since they spam combos so well. You have constant blast finishers from pounce and a choice of whirl/leap finishers from your staff DPS abilities although it seems like the 5 results in higher DPS than the 2. Might just be because the third hit is missing on the golem sometimes.

Your test won’t say much until you tell us the conditions you used, cause they have to be equal, meaning solosetting are not accurate at all for this comparision.

Condi thief is nowhere near good in PvE. Even with venomshare it’s not worth using unless it’s just for fun. It does about half the damage DD staff does solo and venomshare isn’t going to make that up.

No one is talking about a venom share thief, he wants to know which assumptions you made in your damage calculations that gives you the impression that thief DPS is low.

They aren’t calculations it’s called extended DPS parsing on the test golems with multiple builds. DD staff was the highest. Still a bit lower than Reaper. Probably higher then mesmer but they bring the best DPS support of any class by far. There just doesn’t seem to be a reason to take thieves outside of stealth or tanking.

I mean I don’t really see a reason to bring Reaper at all right now unless they are good tanks for some reason. I only broght up reaper because iirc the person asking about why thief DPS was considered low was responding to someone saying it was lower than Reaper. I don’t think reaper will be as good as Thief/Guard/Rev for tanking though. Mesmers can cover boon stripping and everyone has loads of free vuln. Necro is the least desirable class for raids right now I think.

You can’t get accurate numbers on a target dummy. Even if the boss does allow you to just attack them, you’re going to steal different skills off the boss than you will off the target dummy.

For all we know, the bosses that cause thieves issues will allow you to steal completely overpowered skills that only work on that particular boss in order to maintain balance between the classes for that fight.

Until you know 1: How much toughness the boss has (More toughness favours condition builds)
2: What the fight mechanics are (Presence of adrenal mushrooms favours builds that use cooldown utilities for damage, AoE death zone around the boss means focusing on ranged weapons)
3: Number of targets (Bouncing attacks such as the shortbow autoattack become particularly potent at 2 targets, dagger falls behind on fights with multiple enemies)
4: What skill you can steal from them (A powerful steal skill could either push power of condition damage builds depending on what type of damage it deals, and to what extent, additionally, a sufficiently powerful one could potentially make trickery a better third line than critical strikes.)
5: Is the boss immune to anything. (Immune to crits hurts precision/ferocity builds, immune to conditions completely kills condition builds, etc.), you can’t accurately compare DPS for an encounter, you’re just comparing DPS on a target dummy.

Eponet.4829:

You can’t accurately compare DPS for an encounter, you’re just comparing DPS on a target dummy.

Well it’s a good thing we aren’t comparing DPS for specific encounters are we.

Mallis.4295:

Eponet.4829:

You can’t accurately compare DPS for an encounter, you’re just comparing DPS on a target dummy.

Well it’s a good thing we aren’t comparing DPS for specific encounters are we.

Well, you’re using a specific comparison to try and talk about raids, which aren’t out yet. It’s simply far too early to try stating which builds will and wont work for anything except the boss shown in the beta weekend, and even that very likely received changes from its previous incarnation.

Until we actually see the raids, we can’t claim with any reliability that thieves wont be used for them, all that that sort of doomsaying does is creates a bias in the community against them before even seeing whether they fit in well or not.

The fights aren’t going to be against target dummies, it’s illogical to use target dummy tests to claim what’s best before we ever see the encounters.