Guild Wars 2

Will there be a place for thief in raids?

I strongly feel that there won’t be a place for thief in raids and this is an issue as it goes against Anet’s philosophy that whatever class you want to play you can play it.

Given how aetherblade dungeon,the molten facility, and vale guardian is structured, and to some extent FoTM, it doesn’t look promising for the future of raids to include thieves when engies are better in every way. Also thief initiative system doesn’t benefit greatly from quickness/alacrity which are powerful boon.

We simply don’t know yet, we only saw the first encounter of the first raid wing. To early to talk about meta comps imo.

Skoigoth.9238:

We simply don’t know yet, we only saw the first encounter of the first raid wing. To early to talk about meta comps imo.

^ This.

From a pure, theoretical output perspective, it’s not looking good for thieves, but there may be a special type of encounter where a thief could shine.

For example, if you need to move an item from one place to another (similar to the light orb in that one path of Arah). If that’s the case, then a shadow stepping thief may allow the task to be completed by 1 person when otherwise it would take 2 or would simply take longer.

Alternatively, maybe someone needs to stand somewhere that’s full of damage that can only be evaded. A thief could spam more evades than any other class and be the MVP for that scenario.

I’m not holding my breath on this, but it’s possible.

There also may be changes from a balance patch before raids land which pushes thief ahead in some other way.

I dont see it being huge deal on what classes / specs raid. Sure you will need a main tank and healer but a diverse raid group should be fine. If certain classes or specs are useless in raids then Anet has failed in dungeon design.

I main a thief as well so if you cant find a guild raiding or raid pug spot send a pm or mail in game. We only have five or so with HoT as it is so will need to add friends or randoms to get to ten.

no

wolfgang.3471:

Will there be a place for thief in raids?

I strongly feel that there won’t be a place for thief in raids and this is an issue as it goes against Anet’s philosophy that whatever class you want to play you can play it.

’as it goes against Anet’s philosophy that whatever class you want to play you can play it."

You can play whatever class you want. However, all the classes won’t be equal in balance. The only way to do that is to have 9 classes that are exactly the same except for the name. As for what will be the meta for raids, that remains to be seen.

It’s looking likely that thiefs will not be that useful in raids. I say that as a thief main.

I would be shocked if the high mobility and stealth isn’t used for something. We already know anet wants certain players to have a unique role in fights.

I also suspect that after people learn the fights really well it won’t matter to an extent what classes people bring except for speed runs. The first time I did CoE it was scary and I died a lot, up till the dungeon nerf I was doing it while black-out drunk.

If there is a flag runner job or some mobility based objective that a Chronomancer can’t do then maybe, just maybe.

Unless they make initiative gain increase with Alacrity there isn’t much hope for Thief in terms of competitive DPS.

Let’s actually be real for a minute. It doesn’t matter what classes you bring as long add each build is solid and relatively optimized. There is absolutely no need for"engi over thief" unless your speed clearing. Get the needed roles filled and have everyone know what they need to do, you’ll be fine.

Fenris Amarok.4052:

Let’s actually be real for a minute. It doesn’t matter what classes you bring as long add each build is solid and relatively optimized. There is absolutely no need for"engi over thief" unless your speed clearing. Get the needed roles filled and have everyone know what they need to do, you’ll be fine.

High DPS isn’t just about speed clearing. It means you can kill a boss before an enrage timer with less people focused on pure dps. It also means the boss has less of a chance to kill someone when it doesn’t stay alive as long.

Has anyone calculated the DPS of staff thief?

Thief still the best solo Stealth source/uptime, the fastest running class without toy axe, the class with the highest blinds uptime, the best class for interrupts and more, there will be probably raids that thief will be necessary/optimal in the comp, but maybe not on the first wing.

assassin.7895:

Has anyone calculated the DPS of staff thief?

Staff thief and D/D are so close in terms of DPS that its within the margin of player error.

harold.3526:

Thief still the best solo Stealth source/uptime, the fastest running class without toy axe, the class with the highest blinds uptime, the best class for interrupts and more, there will be probably raids that thief will be necessary/optimal in the comp, but maybe not on the first wing.

i think only rev can blink 1200 distance every 5 seconds

Sublimatio.6981:

i think only rev can blink 1200 distance every 5 seconds

I don’t have a revenant yet i may be wrong when comparing both, i know they are the faster in-game class when wearing a “toy axe”.

They can blink 1200 without a target?

harold.3526:

They can blink 1200 without a target?

nope

Skoigoth.9238:

harold.3526:

They can blink 1200 without a target?

nope

So i believe the fastest running class without toy axe is a thief? or i am missing something?

Yeah, I’m pretty sure thief is still the class with the highest ooc mobility. Revenant has great in-combat mobility though due to high personal super speed up-time and phase traversal (targeted blink).

rev doesnt have to be in combat to teleport. as long as he has targets 1200+ before him, he can use the teleport without engaging in combat.

the same with thief and his signet and sword teleport. right, forgot about sword, so i guess thief is still faster if you use the jump to prevent follow-up skill

I really hope they disable things like toy axes in raids if they’re going to give players an advantage…

@ rev vs thief: Thief may not have the low cd on their 1,200 shadowstep, but in addition to not needing a target, they can then spam a 900 range port with short bow after that in addition to using other movement abilities like dash and withdraw.

If there is a target, then you get inf signet, and inf strike on top of the above. If you can deal with hitting the target, you get steal too.

Thief still wins, hands down.

if they do i hope they give me a refund because thats the only reason i bought the outfit

So, D/D compared to staff:

D/D: (Dodge), CnD, BS, 1 autochain
t: 3,97s
coefficient: 6,16

Staff: (Dodge), WCx2, 1 autochain
t: 3,94s
coefficient: 6,72

Both rotations take the same time, but they are not completely sustainable (running out of initiative).

Since we have two different weapons and different traits we have to correct these coefficients now:

D/D: Revealed training: approx 6% modifier
Staff: Staff Master 10%; Staff weapon dmg/Dagger weapon dmg = 1,1

corrected coefficient:
D/D: 6,44
Staff: 8,62
—> Staff approx. 26% more dmg, meaning you only need to hit more than 1,8/3 WC to have more dmg than D/D.

Slower rotations slightly favor D/D, but still lead to a difference of about 22%.

This where just some fast estimations, there might be some errors in it, if you find them pls tell me

Sublimatio.6981:

if they do i hope they give me a refund because thats the only reason i bought the outfit

You bought the outfit as an exploit for group content? If I were ANet, I wouldn’t give you a refund…

Dahkeus.8243:

Sublimatio.6981:

if they do i hope they give me a refund because thats the only reason i bought the outfit

You bought the outfit as an exploit for group content? If I were ANet, I wouldn’t give you a refund…

not today, satan. not today

It doesn’t matter if toys are disabled in raids, you can’t use them in combat. You’re entering the raid to kill a boss, not run down a set of stairs fast enough to kill yourself.

The first raid boss was the most mobile fight we’ve pretty much had in gw2 and it didn’t require the thief mobility.

Sublimatio.6981:

no

:(

Its Josh.2860:

The first raid boss was the most mobile fight we’ve pretty much had in gw2 and it didn’t require the thief mobility.

I don’t think people are primarily talking about combat mobility, but more about mobility for potential running sections, puzzles etc. etc.. Stuff like the orb puzzle in Arah e.g., but harder.

Yeah sure no problem
I pretty much pug everything and get it done , i have no problems bringing a thief into the group at all

I doubt raids will be beatable by PuGs though, so min-maxed group compositions most likely will be a thing.

problem is not even dmg, thief can do it (may be not the highest dmg but it is not lowest)… althrogh given enrage timers you probably want highest dps possible

problem is, thief doesn’t bring anything else to group, at all; stealth and moblity is covered by other classes w/o actually sacrificing a lot for it unlike thief + thief is just too squishy and lacks safe net

given that raids are supposed to be hard content, so semi elitism, i doubt we will see many thieves in raids… probably will be in same spot as necros for first 2 years or so in dungeons (aka insta kick)

I will! Because meta-based exclusion is an idiotic system.

Thieves have the steal mechanic. It’ll allow Arena.net to specifically buff thieves on a fight by fight basis by granting specifically tailored abilities from each boss, with more powerful abilities in the fights where thieves have the most trouble, and less powerful ones in fights that they don’t have issues with.

This sort of exclusive system should prevent them from being terrible, as it allows for correction in specific cases, without the risk of pushing them to the point where they’d become over/underpowered in some other game mode.

TLDR: It’s too early to say until we see what the fights/puzzles entail, and what abilities can be stolen off them.

Again, there will be probably raids that thief will be necessary/optimal in the comp for some of the thief mechanics, but maybe not on the first wing.

I guess nobody plays rangers… They are the fastest, especially with druid and even better in combat with quick draw.
100% swiftness upkeep
Great Sword 3 is a leap
Staff 3 is a 1200 dash
with quick draw -66% recharge

Warriors are also great, with Sword and Greatsword
GS 3 and 5
S 2
faster wep swap

Thieves aren’t bad either, with SB, teleports. DD is even better with Dash.

Problem is that most people use Auto-targeting, which will force a target on you. So when you dash away from combat, you dash into an enemy instead.

Knight Vanir.6921:

I guess nobody plays rangers… They are the fastest, especially with druid and even better in combat with quick draw.
100% swiftness upkeep
Great Sword 3 is a leap
Staff 3 is a 1200 dash
with quick draw -66% recharge

Warriors are also great, with Sword and Greatsword
GS 3 and 5
S 2
faster wep swap

Thieves aren’t bad either, with SB, teleports. DD is even better with Dash.

Problem is that most people use Auto-targeting, which will force a target on you. So when you dash away from combat, you dash into an enemy instead.

Rangers are not the fastest class by any means. Sure, they have some nice leaps on short CD’s (if you can utilize Quick Draw, which wont be all of the time), but ever since the mobility nerf, teleports really stand above traditional movement skills. Using a GS rush/leap takes time, or in the case of Druid staff, 1.25 seconds. In those 1.25 seconds, you travel 1200 units, but a Thief using a single Infiltrators Arrow and then walking with swiftness for the rest of the time will travel approx 1250 units. The thief is then free to fire another IA, directly afterwards, ending with a total distance of 2150 units while the Ranger is at 1200 units.

MasterBlaster.6827:

So, D/D compared to staff:

D/D: (Dodge), CnD, BS, 1 autochain
t: 3,97s
coefficient: 6,16

Staff: (Dodge), WCx2, 1 autochain
t: 3,94s
coefficient: 6,72

Both rotations take the same time, but they are not completely sustainable (running out of initiative).

Since we have two different weapons and different traits we have to correct these coefficients now:

D/D: Revealed training: approx 6% modifier
Staff: Staff Master 10%; Staff weapon dmg/Dagger weapon dmg = 1,1

corrected coefficient:
D/D: 6,44
Staff: 8,62
—> Staff approx. 26% more dmg, meaning you only need to hit more than 1,8/3 WC to have more dmg than D/D.

Slower rotations slightly favor D/D, but still lead to a difference of about 22%.

This where just some fast estimations, there might be some errors in it, if you find them pls tell me

And the staff cleaves! So good
The only thing the staff lacks is a way to quickly de-aggro like CnD. But I put my money on staff with its ridiculously bursty damage.

Well thieves can boon strip and have group break bar action with venom and sharing it out to others. Among other fun tools and toys but time will still tell what will effect all aspects of ever fight.

EcoRI.9273:

it doesn’t look promising for the future of raids to include thieves when engies are better in every way.

Even if this is the case, and I find it quite difficult to measure “better” in this game when there is so much that can be done, this doesn’t mean there is no place for thieves in raids. It will be a rare group of friends or guild mates that wouldn’t bring one of their own along if the profession can contribute to raid success. Thieves would have to be in some miserable state not to bring anything to the table, but thankfully this isn’t the case. I have played many dungeons with thieves in my party and the content didn’t suddenly become impossible. I imagine raids will be much the same. An engi may be optimal, but a thief is viable. In the end, if you’re playing with friends, they will be fine with you playing the viable option. If you aren’t playing with friends I suggest you find a new guild where people will be welcoming to a non-meta, but viable, profession/build.

Dahkeus.8243:

Alternatively, maybe someone needs to stand somewhere that’s full of damage that can only be evaded. A thief could spam more evades than any other class and be the MVP for that scenario.

Daredevil tanks could definitely be a thing. Dodge tanks existed in WoW and FFXI. All you need is the toughness to hold aggro(apparently) and then you have all of the evades to not take damage.

harold.3526:

Skoigoth.9238:

harold.3526:

They can blink 1200 without a target?

nope

So i believe the fastest running class without toy axe is a thief? or i am missing something?

Wth… Shadowstep?

Yes I am bringing Daredevil Pure D/P DPS, reason is to destroy thieves’ exclusion from Raids. Thieves’s Headshots is useful for breaking defiance bar as boss doesn’t die after hp goes 0(at least for Vale guardian and its’ splits), you need to break the bar immediately to ‘officially’ kill it.)

Talking about instant mobility, shadowstepping to the lightning field to back up the amount of people needed to be inside and join back the dps group saved group from wiping.

The latest buff to Daredevil Raw DPS is 17% more than normal thief.

Well, that’s purely my opinions and speculations. It may or may not work out, but I definitely think it worth a try. And you need to have a guild group that’s willing to let you do so.

SirMoogie.9263:

EcoRI.9273:

it doesn’t look promising for the future of raids to include thieves when engies are better in every way.

Even if this is the case, and I find it quite difficult to measure “better” in this game when there is so much that can be done, this doesn’t mean there is no place for thieves in raids. It will be a rare group of friends or guild mates that wouldn’t bring one of their own along if the profession can contribute to raid success. Thieves would have to be in some miserable state not to bring anything to the table, but thankfully this isn’t the case. I have played many dungeons with thieves in my party and the content didn’t suddenly become impossible. I imagine raids will be much the same. An engi may be optimal, but a thief is viable. In the end, if you’re playing with friends, they will be fine with you playing the viable option. If you aren’t playing with friends I suggest you find a new guild where people will be welcoming to a non-meta, but viable, profession/build.

If you can beat Raids with anything but a highly optimized team comp, they might as well not have bothered making them in the first place and could have just added some more open world stuff that can be beaten by autoattacking on a staff guardian.

Dante.1523:

If you can beat Raids with anything but a highly optimized team comp, they might as well not have bothered making them in the first place

The question is what does the pool of highly-optimized teams look like? If none of them contain thieves, then Arena Net would not be meeting one of their many goals for the content they create. One of those goals is that each profession can perform in any role, just in their own unique way. Arena Net cannot have it both ways. They cannot have encounters that are so precise that only a group of eight engineers and two warriors can complete it, and meet their stated goals about professions. I also think few people really do want this level of precision (you may be an exception).

SirMoogie.9263:

Dante.1523:

If you can beat Raids with anything but a highly optimized team comp, they might as well not have bothered making them in the first place

The question is what does the pool of highly-optimized teams look like? If none of them contain thieves, then Arena Net would not be meeting one of their many goals for the content they create. One of those goals is that each profession can perform in any role, just in their own unique way. Arena Net cannot have it both ways. They cannot have encounters that are so precise that only a group of eight engineers and two warriors can complete it, and meet their stated goals about professions. I also think few people really do want this level of precision (you may be an exception).

Since the party buffs are limited to only 5 people you can be fairly sure that not every class will make it for raids. And their goal was never that every class can play every role, they explicitly stated that during one of their panels concerning raids.
Also with dungeons and fractals we already have faceroll group content. No reason to add more of that. But you may be right, I may be the exception when asking for actually challenging content, especially considering the complaining about the “high difficulty” of the new maps.

SirMoogie.9263:

EcoRI.9273:

it doesn’t look promising for the future of raids to include thieves when engies are better in every way.

Even if this is the case, and I find it quite difficult to measure “better” in this game when there is so much that can be done, this doesn’t mean there is no place for thieves in raids. It will be a rare group of friends or guild mates that wouldn’t bring one of their own along if the profession can contribute to raid success. Thieves would have to be in some miserable state not to bring anything to the table, but thankfully this isn’t the case. I have played many dungeons with thieves in my party and the content didn’t suddenly become impossible. I imagine raids will be much the same. An engi may be optimal, but a thief is viable. In the end, if you’re playing with friends, they will be fine with you playing the viable option. If you aren’t playing with friends I suggest you find a new guild where people will be welcoming to a non-meta, but viable, profession/build.

Well that is always the case in the game, a bear bow ranger is totally viable. There is no benefit to bring a bear bow to a party and the only reason why one would do so is because they just like the play style. Any class is perfectly fine if that is how you view the game. But for the players who look for beneficial reasons to bring a thief, there really isn’t much to work with since the only thing thieves are good at is running to the next boss event. When bosses are melting in 10seconds you can shift your team comp focus to running but when raid bosses(vale guardian) die in 6minutes and start becoming the bottleneck, the niche role that thieves have are pretty much useless.

Here is a list of why I think Engie is just better.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Engie-Thief-in-dungeons-fractals/first#post5637871

Knight Vanir.6921:

I guess nobody plays rangers… They are the fastest, especially with druid and even better in combat with quick draw.
100% swiftness upkeep
Great Sword 3 is a leap
Staff 3 is a 1200 dash
with quick draw -66% recharge

Warriors are also great, with Sword and Greatsword
GS 3 and 5
S 2
faster wep swap

Thieves aren’t bad either, with SB, teleports. DD is even better with Dash.

Problem is that most people use Auto-targeting, which will force a target on you. So when you dash away from combat, you dash into an enemy instead.

Have you played daredevil?

Unhindered combatant provides permanent swiftness along with a huge dash whenever you dodge, meaning, 3 initial uses, easily refillable with channel vigor, during the time in which you’re waiting on channel vigor/endurance to recharge, you can spam infiltrator’s arrow. (Though in practice you want to continuously use some of each in order to avoid being endurance/initiative capped, it’s easier to explain it this way.)

Dante.1523:

Since the party buffs are limited to only 5 people you can be fairly sure that not every class will make it for raids.

Can we really be so sure having not played the current version of the raid and it having a month to tune itself based on feedback? Can we really be so sure considering the first forays into the raid were plagued with disconnects, bugs, and players just learning the ropes?

Completing an encounter as fast as possible and being able to complete an encounter are two different things. There are so many variables in play that to boil an encounter down into what gets you 25 stacks of might on the UI trivializes things considerably, and doesn’t sound like the challenges they are mostly talking about when it comes to raids:

Expecting to be able to just watch the UI to beat a boss? Guess again! Raiding in Guild Wars 2 is an action-oriented, engaging experience. You’ll have to actively manage your position, dodge, coordinate on objectives, and much more.

Dante.1523:

And their goal was never that every class can play every role, they explicitly stated that during one of their panels concerning raids.

Since the very beginning they’ve been pretty up front about ensuring all professions would be welcome and have tools for performing each role in their version of the trinity. Remember the Healing and Death article?

You could say instead of DPS/heal/tank, we have our own trinity of damage, support, and control, but we prefer to think of them as the variety of elements that create a diverse and dynamic combat system that gives each player a toolbox to work with to solve any encounter we might throw their way.

More recent claims say much of the same:

Raids in Guild Wars 2 are not about waiting to have fun. You don’t need to wait for your healer to get online. Our build-customization and weapon-swapping systems allow anyone to change their build to meet a particular challenge. And while a warrior might support a group differently than an elementalist would in terms of playstyle, our systems allow you to adjust your team’s composition and strategy to overcome any challenge.

The entire Revenant design was done in a way to strictly follow this design goal:

So far we’ve discussed a legend and weapon set that are focused on defense and survivability , as well as a more condition-focused setup. Now we’ll be going over the healing-focused setup for the revenant. The new legend will offer a supportive playstyle and push the boundaries of healing through skillful play.

EcoRI.9273:

Here is a list of why I think Engie is just better.

“Better” does not mean “necessary” or “only choice”. The original question is about thieves having a place, not thieves being the best at one particular thing.

Cynz.9437:

problem is not even dmg, thief can do it (may be not the highest dmg but it is not lowest)

This was true pre-expansion but isn’t true anymore. For raids and fractals thief is now the lowest damage class in the game.