Guild Wars 2

Zenith.7301:

They’re never going to add a DPS meter because it’d reveal just how significant the disparity in class performance is. It would show the horrid job done these past years with PvE balance.

It’s already easy to tell them apart even anecdotally without exact DPS numbers.

That said being able to document the different DPS of certain class rotations on a class would be incredible for optimizing your play style to a particular encounter.

One thing I really want, for dungeons at least, is a tool that tells my my percentage of contribution towards certain bosses or the whole dungeon run itself… I don’t want to know anyone elses, keep it hidden, just tell me my personal contribution.

“If we had some form of statistics to PROVE that XYZ spec was 10% / 20% / XX% better than ZYX build (especially on a per encounter basis), then it would be better. However all we can do is speculate that this build is better. From a raid leader point of view, I’m going to want my raiders in the most optimal (theory-crafted) builds and specs, however there is no way to know that my rangers custom build is any amount better or worse for this encounter than the cookie cutter build at the moment (aside from game experience, which im not saying either partys are lacking of course). If we had some form of logging or statistics we could look at after the fight and say “Wow that build isn’t that bad afterall” that would be immensely valuable. Instead we’re in a situation where everyone will be expected to run the cookie cutter build in fear of being called out for it on a wipe.”

This is, mostly, a good point. However, if raids pick up and become a real thing in the future, with frequent releases and competition between guilds forming up, then we can expect there to be better spreadsheets and even simulation tools popping up to help figure out which specs work best under which circumstances. Once that happens – and again, it WILL happen if raids become more serious as it is the nature of the beast – then what I said will be extremely relevant.

“We KNOW for a fact engineers were the BEST for the condition damage”

Actually, we don’t know. From my napkin math, Engineers aren’t the best sustained condi damage build in the game for single target fights. They certainly aren’t the best AoE condition damage build, since no one can beat Epidemic. The build options haven’t been fully explored yet. Like you said, the best we can do is guess and crunch numbers.

While a DPS meter would certainly be a great help for some people, it would be a major hindrance for others. There’s a reason you can’t inspect other players, and that reason is the same one that will convince anet not to implement a damage meter in the game.

Zaroua.2714:

“If we had some form of statistics to PROVE that XYZ spec was 10% / 20% / XX% better than ZYX build (especially on a per encounter basis), then it would be better. However all we can do is speculate that this build is better. From a raid leader point of view, I’m going to want my raiders in the most optimal (theory-crafted) builds and specs, however there is no way to know that my rangers custom build is any amount better or worse for this encounter than the cookie cutter build at the moment (aside from game experience, which im not saying either partys are lacking of course). If we had some form of logging or statistics we could look at after the fight and say “Wow that build isn’t that bad afterall” that would be immensely valuable. Instead we’re in a situation where everyone will be expected to run the cookie cutter build in fear of being called out for it on a wipe.”

This is, mostly, a good point. However, if raids pick up and become a real thing in the future, with frequent releases and competition between guilds forming up, then we can expect there to be better spreadsheets and even simulation tools popping up to help figure out which specs work best under which circumstances. Once that happens – and again, it WILL happen if raids become more serious as it is the nature of the beast – then what I said will be extremely relevant.

“We KNOW for a fact engineers were the BEST for the condition damage”

Actually, we don’t know. From my napkin math, Engineers aren’t the best sustained condi damage build in the game for single target fights. They certainly aren’t the best AoE condition damage build, since no one can beat Epidemic. The build options haven’t been fully explored yet. Like you said, the best we can do is guess and crunch numbers.

While a DPS meter would certainly be a great help for some people, it would be a major hindrance for others. There’s a reason you can’t inspect other players, and that reason is the same one that will convince anet not to implement a damage meter in the game.

What does your napkin math say, I’m curious. I mean just visually checking over the last couple months adding up a bit of my combat log from random spurts, I’m able to average 10-17k, I rarely drop below that and if I do it’s because I was silly and did something dumb (no food >.< combined with bad rotation)

NoTrigger.8396:

do you really think a dps meter is needed to figure out dps of every class?

To the general public, yes.

Probably easiest to have combat log write to a text file and you could parse from that.

It seems like I am minority here, but I don’t agree. GuildWars 2 could very well be a different kind of hardcore, that requires more hand-eye coordination than perfect timing of execution.

Other MMOs had very detailed fight logs because you needed to know EXACTLY how long a debuff was applied on your ally before the healers removed it. GuildWars 2 raids could be fun and hardcore in a different way. Not because they are implementing raids now that they need to follow the other MMOs mantras.

We don’t have a traditional tank (just a class that can withstand more damage, but no aggro control). So, I am against any sort of meter and/or detailed timing reports from raids.

“What does your napkin math say”

Sustainable 15k-20k DPS. Probably more. Of course, I try to take into account alacrity and quickness, but still.

Zaroua.2714:

“What does your napkin math say”

Sustainable 15k-20k DPS. Probably more. Of course, I try to take into account alacrity and quickness, but still.

How is that not best then? I mean maybe ranger beat it out with alacrity/quickness if it’s just 15k but seems like Engi is still easily up there, at least condi maybe someone can edge it out with power? I don’t know.

My understanding of the Engineer rotation is that it’s 1) nigh impossible to do perfectly and 2) doesn’t scale worth a kitten with quickness 3) doesn’t scale all that well with alacrity because stuff goes off cooldown at the same time as other abilities. In any case, I do feel that saying “X is best” is often naïve because the new elite specs aren’t nearly figured out well enough. Of course some things would still be true like “Necro do the most AoE condi dmg because of Epidemic”, “Guardians are the best at applying group Aegis”, “Thieves have the most mobility”, etc. Stuff that hasn’t been figured out well like who does the most damage and who brings the most utility is rather, subjective? at this point. That’s why I’m saying that I don’t think Engineers are top dog when it comes to condi DPS, because from my own tests, they very well may not be. Close, or par, but maybe not on top; I’d need a lot of testing and refining to say for certain and then I’d have to prove my points with math, which I just can’t do right now.

Rash.6514:

It seems like I am minority here, but I don’t agree. GuildWars 2 could very well be a different kind of hardcore, that requires more hand-eye coordination than perfect timing of execution.

Other MMOs had very detailed fight logs because you needed to know EXACTLY how long a debuff was applied on your ally before the healers removed it. GuildWars 2 raids could be fun and hardcore in a different way. Not because they are implementing raids now that they need to follow the other MMOs mantras.

We don’t have a traditional tank (just a class that can withstand more damage, but no aggro control). So, I am against any sort of meter and/or detailed timing reports from raids.

Well it’s the dungeon forum. The culture here is very different than the culture outside. People in here are very focused on a very particular kind of experience, and the reinforcement elements are generally in one direction. It’s fairly safe that if you asked the same question in General Gameplay discussion or HOT you’d get a very different net answer.

Zenith.7301:

Windsagio.1340:

Yes, it’s all a conspiracy because players just know so much more about balance than the designers do.

It does accidentally make a good point though – a meter would limit the design space something fierce because you’d kind of have to design in such a way as all classes were in the same range in the meters. Just another way that dps meters feed misery.

lol and 3 years of “ELE/ELE/WARRIOR/THIEF/GUARD ONLY” totally isn’t misery, right.

First of all, it has actually changed over the years, although the preferred style was pretty static for about a year and a half.

Secondly, these classes are designed holistically. If’s fine that you have a laser focus on one particular style of one particular game mode, but any designer thinking that way would be really in dereliction and doing a terrible job.

Zaroua.2714:

My understanding of the Engineer rotation is that it’s 1) nigh impossible to do perfectly and 2) doesn’t scale worth a kitten with quickness 3) doesn’t scale all that well with alacrity because stuff goes off cooldown at the same time as other abilities. In any case, I do feel that saying “X is best” is often naïve because the new elite specs aren’t nearly figured out well enough. Of course some things would still be true like “Necro do the most AoE condi dmg because of Epidemic”, “Guardians are the best at applying group Aegis”, “Thieves have the most mobility”, etc. Stuff that hasn’t been figured out well like who does the most damage and who brings the most utility is rather, subjective? at this point. That’s why I’m saying that I don’t think Engineers are top dog when it comes to condi DPS, because from my own tests, they very well may not be. Close, or par, but maybe not on top; I’d need a lot of testing and refining to say for certain and then I’d have to prove my points with math, which I just can’t do right now.

Epidemic is good, thing is, A) doesn’t use your condi damage unless I’m mistaken (I see that as a plus) requires a target with heavy condi’s on it (benefits from other condi users being around… like engi ) and C) it doesn’t affect that main target, so would be good for trash around a boss but won’t help get the boss down at the same time. So I’m not sure it’s right to use it as a blanket statement if we’re gonna nitpick things. Fire Bomb, Napalm, Grenades, Blow Torch, Concussion Bomb, Static Shot, and Mortar’s poison field all hit multiple enemies

I’m curious what you might may beat Engi in Condi though?

And as far as quickness/alacrity, they will help, it’s just a matter of to what extent. And will your hands cramp up half way through. With Alacrity your Blowtorch is on a like 10s cooldown, Firebomb on a like kitten cooldown, Napalm around 20, Shrapnel around 3-4s. And quickness will let you just go ham on your keyboard where currently sometimes you need to hold off a tick to let the previous ability cast enough (happens a lot to me on the Blowtorch/static shot combo where I cancel the blow torch with the static shot as you only have to wait like a third of a second but if you hit it at a quarter second it cancels). Basically with quickness you just speed up 50%.

The difficulty of the condi rotation is just the complexity, as things don’t line up perfectly or near perfectly like Power. Power you hit an acid bomb every 3rd flame blast or so (I think more ideally it’s before your third flame blast). It’s more a matter of keeping track of it all. But with Alacrity and Quickness we’ll likely be deviating a lot and still doing extremely well. Again, Shrapnel/firebomb every few seconds, blowtorch every 2 firebombs, napalm/mortar/pistol2/poison grenade/flame blasts/barrage/freeze grenade in between, whatever you have up. I mean we’ll have Fire Bomb up over 60% of the time. That’s a lot of burning.

My point is just that while I don’t see us gaining a strait 50% like may be theoretically possible, I do see us gaining with it, on top of an already high base. I think calling Engi the best condi damage is a safe bet. That said I think I’d want Ranger + 2X engi in my raids, love me some sun spirit, and I wouldn’t turn down frost spirit and spotter either.

Epidemic does use the caster’s condi damage, under good circumstances, it wouldn’t be out of the ordinary to get Epidemics hitting for over 100k. Even under normal circumstances, 40-50k per Epidemic is normal (at least in a group setting). And you can use AoE spells to Epidemic on an add to get more damage on the boss. And yes, everyone has some AoE condition damage, but not on the scale of the damage Epidemic provides nor on the scale of the AoE Epidemic does it in.

Zaroua.2714:

My understanding of the Engineer rotation is that it’s 1) nigh impossible to do perfectly and 2) doesn’t scale worth a kitten with quickness 3) doesn’t scale all that well with alacrity because stuff goes off cooldown at the same time as other abilities.

To address these points:

1). It’s hard to talk about ‘the Engineer rotation’ because, as you mentioned, you can come up with some very high damage rotations on paper (swapping kits before every single skill with all the cooldowns committed to memory) that do crazy damage (pushing 22k DPS), but are totally impractical. There are also a variety of simpler rotations that you can do – the DnT Engineer skill rotation is not some pure theory skill rotation but an informed rotation performed on golems in HotM by an experienced Engineer player. Those rotations tend to clock in around 19-20k DPS, which are the numbers bandied about.

Obviously in practice players do not achieve spreadsheet numbers calculated under ideal conditions, but top tier players achieve a pretty good fraction of that. I think there’s a strong argument that some builds drop off more with experience than others (an inexperienced condition ranger should still perform pretty well as it’s a very simple class, while an inexperienced Engineer probably falls off hard), but the observed rotations that experienced Engineers use substantially out-damage any other condition build (on paper) by a pretty wide margin.

2). It’s true, Engineer rotations do not scale very well with quickness, as the extra attacks it affords just give you more nade autoattacks which aren’t particularly exciting. Of course, its closest competition for condition damage (ATAT Ranger) also scales remarkably poorly with quickness; condition builds in general depend on heavy hitting cooldowns, not autoattacks.

3). Engineer scales incredibly well with Alacrity. It’s likely the class that scales best with Alacrity in the game. Since so much of its damage comes from cooldowns and you are not gated by weapon swap cooldowns (like ATAT), Alacrity gives you a pretty immense damage boost. It also simplifies your rotation, since you are making use of fewer skills more often to maximize damage. It will take a lot of practice to make best use of Alacrity on an Engineer (since you have to get a good feel for when skills are coming off their reduced cooldowns), but with that practice they’ll certainly benefit from Alacrity (DPS-wise) more than any other class.

All that said, this does not mean you should run nothing but Engineers for condition damage. You need to work with the players you have and DPS requirements are not tuned that tightly. If you need condition damage and your players do not have enormous amounts of experience on engineer you very well may get better performance out of an ATAT or even a venom share thief (depending on alacrity). If you have experienced engineers though slotting them in as condition DPS or condi tanks should be a no brainer – an experienced one will out-damage any competition, and scales a whole lot better with the more advanced buffs than any of the alternatives.

For point number 3, my impression was that since some skills will remain off cooldown more often than whatnot, then you’d have less of a benefit from alacrity compared to a profession where everything comes off of cooldown nicely and doesn’t create an overlap of off cooldown skills for a meaningful period of time, like say a Tempest, Berserker or Necromancer.

I see two possible scenarios:

1. Raids are easy enough that you don’t need to calculate dps. This essentially means CGC has failed to be challenging. This would be a pretty big fail. If you can just faceroll it with any team comp after a week then what was the point?

2. Raids are hard enough that you need a balanced team comp with optimum dps. They will be hard and take practice, but they will lead to raid leaders coming here a few weeks after the raid launches in droves wondering why they can’t beat the raid and complaining they have no feedback about what they are failing at. At this point they will either require all their members to run an “illegal” meter or they will stop running raids.

Either way, raids will fail without having a way to get feedback on what is happening.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I see two possible scenarios:

1. Raids are easy enough that you don’t need to calculate dps. This essentially means CGC has failed to be challenging. This would be a pretty big fail. If you can just faceroll it with any team comp after a week then what was the point?

2. Raids are hard enough that you need a balanced team comp with optimum dps. They will be hard and take practice, but they will lead to raid leaders coming here a few weeks after the raid launches in droves wondering why they can’t beat the raid and complaining they have no feedback about what they are failing at. At this point they will either require all their members to run an “illegal” meter or they will stop running raids.

Either way, raids will fail without having a way to get feedback on what is happening.

you know, difficult content has been beaten without dps meters many times over.

tatistics usually is best used once people have solved the problems, and are more focused on optimization rather than problem solving, increasing skill, etc.

Hi, I am the creator of Warcraft Logs, WildStar Logs and FF Logs. If GW2 did make a combat log available (e.g., wrote a file to disk), I could port my system to it as I have done with the other three games. They have to make that information available to me, though, for me to build something that uses it.

phys.7689:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I see two possible scenarios:

1. Raids are easy enough that you don’t need to calculate dps. This essentially means CGC has failed to be challenging. This would be a pretty big fail. If you can just faceroll it with any team comp after a week then what was the point?

2. Raids are hard enough that you need a balanced team comp with optimum dps. They will be hard and take practice, but they will lead to raid leaders coming here a few weeks after the raid launches in droves wondering why they can’t beat the raid and complaining they have no feedback about what they are failing at. At this point they will either require all their members to run an “illegal” meter or they will stop running raids.

Either way, raids will fail without having a way to get feedback on what is happening.

you know, difficult content has been beaten without dps meters many times over.

tatistics usually is best used once people have solved the problems, and are more focused on optimization rather than problem solving, increasing skill, etc.

Which is kind of the same as saying ‘statistics are best used when they’re not needed’

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I see two possible scenarios:

1. Raids are easy enough that you don’t need to calculate dps. This essentially means CGC has failed to be challenging. This would be a pretty big fail. If you can just faceroll it with any team comp after a week then what was the point?

2. Raids are hard enough that you need a balanced team comp with optimum dps. They will be hard and take practice, but they will lead to raid leaders coming here a few weeks after the raid launches in droves wondering why they can’t beat the raid and complaining they have no feedback about what they are failing at. At this point they will either require all their members to run an “illegal” meter or they will stop running raids.

Either way, raids will fail without having a way to get feedback on what is happening.

I love the logic behnd this, as it says:

“If raids can be defeated with anything that deviates slightly from optimal damage glass builds it’s not challening’.
Here’s hoping that Anet can deliver better than that…

Invidia.9074:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I see two possible scenarios:

1. Raids are easy enough that you don’t need to calculate dps. This essentially means CGC has failed to be challenging. This would be a pretty big fail. If you can just faceroll it with any team comp after a week then what was the point?

2. Raids are hard enough that you need a balanced team comp with optimum dps. They will be hard and take practice, but they will lead to raid leaders coming here a few weeks after the raid launches in droves wondering why they can’t beat the raid and complaining they have no feedback about what they are failing at. At this point they will either require all their members to run an “illegal” meter or they will stop running raids.

Either way, raids will fail without having a way to get feedback on what is happening.

I love the logic behnd this, as it says:

“If raids can be defeated with anything that deviates slightly from optimal damage glass builds it’s not challening’.
Here’s hoping that Anet can deliver better than that…

There will obviously be some deviation, however what degree makes it go from challenging to trivial? If the raid wide dps is 20% lower than optimal should you still be able to clear the raid? That is approximately the difference from full zerker gear to half zerker half defensive gear (assuming full might). However it is also the difference between an engineer and a mid tier dps class. How about 30% deviation from optimal? still beat it? Now we are getting into full defensive builds for certain classes, but it is also the difference in DPS between an engineer and a necro.

We might already have a record in our chat options to see our dps but thts just not enough.. many times have i done say 5k but the record shows i hit for 688. Sometimes it shows for the exact amount.
I fully support a tool that is 100% accurate in telling us OUR OWN dps, healing etc. It can only help us to improve.. However i will NEVER EVER support a tool that can read other people’s dps.. that’s none of my business and should never be a thing in gw2

So much speculations, when do you guy’s enjoy the game?

Fairly certain people can figure out alternative methods for getting DPS numbers without an in-game tool. GIVEN this game’s flexible combat system I am going to assume what will kill raiders isn’t going to be the enrage from a lack of DPS, but a failure to do encounter mechanics properly, forcing downed players to get rezzed or having the boss do some mechanic that makes it take no damage or whatever.

Besides, Food and Utilities are easier buffs that make a very similar difference in DPS in an encounter as well, not sure if anyone outside of Speed-runners pop these in every piece of content but a good first step for new raiders would be to get these foods.

PUG’d a Wildstar dungeon last night, had an experience worth sharing.

Final boss has an enrage mechanic — at 10% HP, he starts casting a party-wipe attack, and you must kill him before he finishes.

We didn’t make it in time and wiped. Glancing at the damage stat bar, we see:

DPS 1: 100
DPS 2: 60
DPS 3: 60
Tank: 20
Healer: ~2

(Numbers are made up, but accurate relative to each other. DPS 1 was higher level than the rest of us, hence the increased damage.)

What happens? Any rage? Any kicks? Any complaints? Any drama?

Nope.

Healer says “one sec, gonna swap in some more damage for enrage”.

We try again.

We win.

No whining, no arguing, no speculation, no “kick the necro/ranger” bs. Problem —> Solution —> Win.

I’d love this in GW2. Especially if Kihra gets involved

dlonie: The more competitive the players the worse this will be.

I think of some of the people I’ve seen in these forums talking about the ‘bads’ and whatnot getting this tool and I get the shivers.

having a pure dps stat is useless. only some tryhard wannabe pros would need a standalone dps meter.
i’m not against a measuring tool itself but this game is far too complicated for a pure dps meter to suffice.
if we’d gonna have average measurements then you need to take everything into account. how long have you ccd? how many dmg have to mitigated with condiclear? how many dmg have you mitigated with reflect? or blind? how much did your might/vuln stacking increase the dps?
and that might not even be enough. to have a tool that can show the full spectrum of somebodies usefulness it would have to calculate impossible tasks.
how often has your heal/support/waterblast/reflect/bodyblock/cc kept somebody from going into downed state (and therefore losing dps). how often have you executed the exact right cc in the exact right direction at the exactly right time? how much dmg have you miticated through interrupting specific abilities? or by how much did the dps increase my interrupting damage mitigation? how long has your (soft-)cc allowed melees to burst?
and so on

yeah right, a dps meter will show me all that … get outta here.

So… recording gameplay to review and turning on the combat log isn’t enough. ( -_-)

HardRider.2980:

We might already have a record in our chat options to see our dps but thts just not enough.. many times have i done say 5k but the record shows i hit for 688. Sometimes it shows for the exact amount.

The combat log shows damage per strike in the attack chain. The splashy numbers onscreen show the running total.

Yeah and thats ridiculously tedious for a modern mmo. Dont ( -_-) us. Its a dumb thing to ask your players to do to play to their best.

Mega Skeleton.8259:

Yeah and thats ridiculously tedious for a modern mmo. Dont ( -_-) us. Its a dumb thing to ask your players to do to play to their best.

It’s also a silly obsession for players to think this matters or particularly enhances gameplay.

Windsagio.1340:

Mega Skeleton.8259:

Yeah and thats ridiculously tedious for a modern mmo. Dont ( -_-) us. Its a dumb thing to ask your players to do to play to their best.

It’s also a silly obsession for players to think this matters or particularly enhances gameplay.

Depends on what the raid content will ask of us. Data can be used in any way shape or form be it for the best or for the worst, I am willing to accept the dangers if it means that it can be potentially be used for the greater good of balance.

I also find it completely ignorant and misinformed that some people in this thread would even think that ACTUAL PHIW players especially myself would even knock the idea of performance meters, if anything we’d use it against these meta people as clear factual ON FIELD data that things are clearly out of line given the opportunity and IT WOULD be used in that way in the name of game balance.

And why stop at a dps meter?

Effective Control
Effective Healing
OverHealing
Damage Taken
Damage Avoided
Projectiles Destroyed
Break Bar Destruction
Effective Boon Uptime
Effective Aegis
Effective Protection
Boon Removal
Interrupts

Not even the tip of the ice berg lettuce,

Let’s get the who shibang rolling.

IllegalChocolate.6938:

Windsagio.1340:

Mega Skeleton.8259:

Yeah and thats ridiculously tedious for a modern mmo. Dont ( -_-) us. Its a dumb thing to ask your players to do to play to their best.

It’s also a silly obsession for players to think this matters or particularly enhances gameplay.

Depends on what the raid content will ask of us. Data can be used in any way shape or form be it for the best or for the worst, I am willing to accept the dangers if it means that it can be potentially be used for the greater good of balance.

I also find it completely ignorant and misinformed that some people in this thread would even think that ACTUAL PHIW players especially myself would even knock the idea of performance meters, if anything we’d use it against these meta people as clear factual ON FIELD data that things are clearly out of line given the opportunity and IT WOULD be used in that way in the name of game balance.

And why stop at a dps meter?

Effective Control
Effective Healing
OverHealing
Damage Taken
Damage Avoided
Projectiles Destroyed
Break Bar Destruction
Effective Boon Uptime
Effective Aegis
Effective Protection
Boon Removal
Interrupts

Not even the tip of the ice berg lettuce,

Let’s get the who shibang rolling.

no one said phiw people would be against it.

the argument is that you shouldnt have it. a lot of people would like 1 million dollars, giving everyone a million dollars however is not of benefit to society as a whole.

being able to do statistical breakdowns does not engender the type of gameplay they once sought to create, they want people playing in the moment

When deciding on whether you want a DPS meter in the game… just look through all these forum discussions and then reiterate on how many people on average you would consider qualified to actually make an informed decision on the raw statistical information that such a tool would provide in the context of a dynamic highly situational boss encounter.

Iam all for DPS meter aso but just dont allow any type of 3rd PARTY PROGRAM EVER

Think I’m going to join the pessimist on this one. Sadly when designing anything it’s not the people that understand & know how to use it you design for but the lowest common denominator.

One of the other largest problems I think forgotten are on a whole most people playing online are strangers to each other in real life. Add this with the general history & studies done regarding DPS meters in online gaming & behaviours it typically generates which are sadly more negative & I too believe although a fantastic tool in the right hands when the general population has access it’s not a tool that should be available.

As some have said but it’s already happing with bad data. Sadly how worse can it get if it’s know that it’s true data (even if only partial true)?

Some bring up pug play as an example & I believe it should have the pug test. It’s stated that this is hard challenge content but the same was stated for dungeons at release. It might take a year (& that a bad estimate) but I believe within a year you’ll see pug groups successfully completing the a complete raid/raid wing.

What about, instead of a tool that may be hard to implement in the UI, have someone like this guy: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Master_of_Damage

Basically in GW1 you could hit this guy for 3 minutes, solo or in team and have stats about your damages and DPS. Now with some tweaking he could also have boons reappearing every second so he could count the number of debuff, CC and the heals provided. You could even have a dialogue asking him (or better : a golem) to run in circles to have an idea of moving DPS. Teams could organize their build and strat around it.

On the other hand, if this was to be info brought in raids I think it should only be seen by the raid commander and only if the player allows the leader to read their data. In the end, people wanting to use those data should make it clear in the beginning. If you play with your friend, it is a matter of trust so normally this won’t lead to any drama. If you’re in a PUG then you may choose to trust the guy or not. Conversely, the leader can put this as a pre requisite, so instead of being kicked, a PUG who doesn’t want to compare DPS would simply not be grouped.

What a depressing world view some of you have…

Good thing the rest of the world doesn’t follow the logic of this thread or we’d all still be using our oil lamps and horses to get to work at the farm…

People using something incorrectly is NEVER an argument to get rid of that thing.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

What a depressing world view some of you have…

I mean DPS meters aren’t exactly a new concept. That “depressing world view” is actually “depressing experiences” people usually have had in games with these tools being the primary source of their grief.

Arguing about the objectiveness of the tool isn’t the conversation that’s being had. The conversation that is being had is the intrinsic social dangers that are introduced when you begin measuring performance. Think of it like a hand gun. I’m sure most people say it’s entirely for self defense and self defense is the primary purpose of owning a gun. However you also know that someone’s gonna use that gun and murder some people with it. It’s naive to say they won’t when statistically it’s just going to happen. It’s no different with damage meters. I’m sure some people will certainly use them to improve their game play and justify builds through hard numbers. However it’s incredibly naive to think, given numerous years of experience in other games to the contrary, that no one isn’t going to also use it as a tool to kick and/or bully players.

Are the benefits worth the inherent danger that comes with them? That’s up to Anet to decide. Considering people already have started getting through raids within the first weekend I guess I don’t personally see the point.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

What a depressing world view some of you have…

Good thing the rest of the world doesn’t follow the logic of this thread or we’d all still be using our oil lamps and horses to get to work at the farm…

People using something incorrectly is NEVER an argument to get rid of that thing.

when the natural use of something causes problems, it is in fact a reason to redesign it, or get rid of it. That is one of the main specifications for engineers.

like cars that used to be designed with sharp objects
baby toys that lend themselves to choking
no emissions standards on cars
old guns that were prone to misfire if not properly cleaned
suceptibility of certain web browsers to exploitation by shady sites
goverment spying on emails
requirement for doors to be push for exit due to fire safety
speed limits on cars
the old vote kick system

its usually the rule more often than not, that things are designed based on worst case scenarios, not doing so, is a fairly bad design paradigm.

DPS meters are for the unskilled who need to have there hands held. DPS meters will not make you a better player. Skill and knowing what you are doing will.

But hay what do I know right? The “elite” use it to make them selfs better right?

Sorry, but every thread I see like this makes me laugh.

BrotherBelial.3094:

DPS meters are for the unskilled who need to have there hands held. DPS meters will not make you a better player. Skill and knowing what you are doing will.

But hay what do I know right? The “elite” use it to make them selfs better right?

Sorry, but every thread I see like this makes me laugh.

Thanks for providing a hilarious post.

BrotherBelial.3094:

DPS meters are for the unskilled who need to have there hands held. DPS meters will not make you a better player. Skill and knowing what you are doing will.

But hay what do I know right? The “elite” use it to make them selfs better right?

Sorry, but every thread I see like this makes me laugh.

Isn’t that the point?

Jerus.4350:

BrotherBelial.3094:

DPS meters are for the unskilled who need to have there hands held. DPS meters will not make you a better player. Skill and knowing what you are doing will.

But hay what do I know right? The “elite” use it to make them selfs better right?

Sorry, but every thread I see like this makes me laugh.

Isn’t that the point?

Hey, he’s wrong in a flattering way of course.

My guesstimate (removing the 99.99% that don’t care at all):

5% people who really really enjoy optimization working out best possible rotations etc.
35% people who feel the need to filter their groups and take care of poor performers (one way or another).
60% people who look at it as a competition.

Comming from WoW where you can get all possible stats from raids: it causes nothing but huge drama, toxicity and mobbing. Also as stated above it promotes pure “omg DPS, ignore everyone else” gameplay.

We don’t need such garbage in GW2. Period.

Cookiezz.5261:

Leodon.1564:

Blaeys.3102:

As many are noting, we have years of anecdotal evidence from other games showing that, while some would use them to improve the game, the vocal majority would just use them as a tool to incite drama, encourage exclusionary behavior, and put people down. I realize some of that happens already, but it isnt something Anet should support in any way.

As useful as the information might be, the positives simply do not outweigh the negatives.

I’d agree with this also.

While I would want to have it mainly so I can tweak my own performance and build. I would also use it to see how others are performing and would form negative opinions about under performing individuals. Its human nature and thus serves as a divisive tool. Currently, if a group under performs you shrug it off since you can’t really pinpoint who the weak links are and in the end you benefit from it by having less stress.

GW2 is a game made for casuals so that any random group of people can join together and beat content. Content is made with this in mind and doesn’t require people to be running only the most optimal builds to beat it and I prefer it stay that way. Having a DPS meter encourages elitism and I’m guilty of this myself when I played WoW.

Of course raid leaders could request that you share that information, but then it is YOUR choice to share it.

My Opinion
====
Problem with this is already evident in the current game.
Lfg: Ping gear on join.
Player: I don’t want to.
Group: kicks player.

Then someone says, well you should read. Eventually 90% of the ad postings say ping gear or run meta build. So now, the player has only one choice if they want to do the content. Ping their gear or can’t do the content because there are barely any ads that don’t ask for them to ping their gear. Also, profession limitations as well:

LFG: No necro or ranger.
Player: But they’re my main character!
Group: kicks player.

There will be lfg ads saying, your personal DPS rating must be greater than ____ to join us. That kinda sounds somewhat ok for raids but players won’t use it just for raids. It will leak into various lfg ads. When everyone does the same thing, new solutions are not always found. People become content with the status quo and new solutions to harder content are only found by a minority of players. Then this information is eventually shared or leaked to the community. But again, I understand how it will be useful in raids but not in other areas of the game.

Cynz.9437:

Comming from WoW where you can get all possible stats from raids: it causes nothing but huge drama, toxicity and mobbing. Also as stated above it promotes pure “omg DPS, ignore everyone else” gameplay.

We don’t need such garbage in GW2. Period.

Totally agree.

Also here and old but still just as relevant elaboration on the real implications of introducing dps meters to raid games by a very popular “maxing scumbag dps expert”:

Good old Kripparian back in 2012 on the subject matter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlrW0MY_n7g&spfreload=10

I’d be content with just a way to export your combat log manually (with seconds added to the timestamp) so I can try my rotation out, export the log, calculate effective dps and go back to the drawing board.

A real-time dps meter fills little to no purpose.

Inverse.2967:

Cynz.9437:

Comming from WoW where you can get all possible stats from raids: it causes nothing but huge drama, toxicity and mobbing. Also as stated above it promotes pure “omg DPS, ignore everyone else” gameplay.

We don’t need such garbage in GW2. Period.

Totally agree.

Also here and old but still just as relevant elaboration on the real implications of introducing dps meters to raid games by a very popular “maxing scumbag dps expert”:

Good old Kripparian back in 2012 on the subject matter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlrW0MY_n7g&spfreload=10

with anets new way to another wow clone we need dps meter now!

i vote also for dps meter now. and pls make that we can steal harving nodes so other players cant get the stuff

Jerus.4350:

BrotherBelial.3094:

DPS meters are for the unskilled who need to have there hands held. DPS meters will not make you a better player. Skill and knowing what you are doing will.

But hay what do I know right? The “elite” use it to make them selfs better right?

Sorry, but every thread I see like this makes me laugh.

Isn’t that the point?

Playing devil’s advocate I’d give credit to one idea though :
Unless there is a major balance update, there are almost no reason for DPS to change over time since in this game there is few problem of itemization thanks to lack of gear treadmill. So the measure of live DPS would just be an indication of your skills at that moment, but normally there are no big difference from one day to another.
That said this argument is valid for the sole purpose of DPS, if you have a tool that gives much more info, I agree it could be more useful.