Guild Wars 2

I just returned awhile ago and that means I been trying to learn HoT content so I find it’s a tough learning curve bc lots of new challenging content but not too steep. Then enter raids which feel as dead as dungeons sometimes, frustrating and near impossible to find a group sometimes, only a 20% chance of finishing any boss or even getting anywhere. I feel lost and I don’t know what’s wrong with majority of the player base but raids seem to bring out the worst in them, and by that I mean full-blown elitism, either the highway or no way. I get it, raids are supposed to be challenging content. That’s ok bc in can adapt in most cases. It’s just for some bosses it’s hard to be aware of all the mechanics, even after reading the guides which forget to mention some parts and just brush over them or hint at something obliquely leik, ‘ono it’s nothing just ask ur raid group don’t be afraid to speak up’. I know I should join some training runs and someone will suggest that here but the thing is I’m no longer able to be on just whenever the mood strikes me. I have an unfortunate schedule that I rly have no control over and the raid guild I’m in now only runs at specific times and I’m unable to make most of the times. I’m not even sure if they do practice runs for the harder bosses and I’m afraid to ask cos they might kick me if I do (I’m not even sure I can trust these guilds anymore to be friendly or open).

Ok so somebody might tell me ‘l2p’ and maybe I deserve that but to them I would respond: ‘how?’ Because I honestly feel like no one has the patience or trustworthiness honestly to teach me. I’ve not joined any training groups yet, I know they are going to be grueling and tiresome and full of newbs in rubbish gear that don’t know what they’re doing (tell me I’m wrong I can trust them to be like me, full ascended and at least done t4 fotm occasionally.) So yeah it’s going to take forever to join one of those groupsm. I don’t have lot of time anymore to sit around and listen to some guy in voice chat yelling out what to do. That’s not how im used to learning things and I resent that nearly every pug group asks u to join in voice chat honestly. Not that I don’t, but it’s tiresome if I’m asked to everytime. If I refuse to come on chat, I’m afraid I might get kicked bc that’s how I view raid groups now. All of them selfish and short on time so they’re looking for any small defect or imperfection in u and that ur really are 102% exp and once they find what they’re looking for then kick

Ill be honest I’ve done PvP before and yeah competitive stuff but I quit after a few months bc most of them were way too competitive or took things way too seriously. I ever got mocked at by my whole team in a random matchup once after they kicked my kitten and my team’s kitten on the last one, and I realise they were like an arranged team (pre-made, some group of friends together I dunno what u call them) but after that I realised that I didn’t feel comfortable with PvP anymore, if I have ppl mocking me after they beat me then I don’t get how people can say ’it’s just a game you’re competing only for fun, brush it off and shake hands and smile politely once ur done’ but only that was never true, not once. One necro even got angry after I beat him solo on a point once and he blasted me in chat, saying how if I’m so good why can’t I carry my team? We both knew my team was rubbish and they were getting destroyed but he still felt he had to say that even though he knew he would get the win that round. Maybe he was humiliated I dunno, but if that is what u usually say or do when u got beat in PvP then yeah I just don’t care abt it anymore. So I left it behind and I haven’t ever looked back since.

I’ve joined two groups for sab so far, on the 1st one I got tasked with handling the bombs strewn around and yeah I’m used to it now but after 2 tries or so we just disbanded, I guess ppl were having trouble with cannons and the dps was low. On the 2nd group I got called out cos I wasted those sapper bombs on the boss cos I wasn’t sure where to throw them, then after we /gg they asked me if I was exp and I said yeah but my group never finished then they said that I should know what to do with the bombs then, only I never got the bombs before so I was at a loss. Then they said something along the lines of ‘NESWNSEW’ that’s the order and even though I vaguely understood what they meant I started panicking bc I’m not sure how they expected me to remember the order when it was my turn. Then on our 2nd attempt thankfully i didn’t get the bombs placed on me and yes I was afraid I would mess up the directions this time, but someone else was late on the sapper bombs anyway so we wiped again. Then without saying anything the leader kicked me out of group, when I told him I felt bad and what did I do wrong, he said that quote ’it’s not you, I had to get some guildies’.. so there you go, that same competitive edge again. Maybe I wasn’t the only one kicked out of that group but I can’t possibly know that. I just don’t understand bc I did everything else well.. I even volunteered to get the big bombs and I stacked right on top of boss when they told me to and everyone else was a little further back, I had good rotations in and I never downed even once, and I mess up on one mechanic and they just all pounce on me, end up kicking me bc of it rather than spend some time explaining it to me more clearly.

So yeah that’s one bad experience.. but there was another even before that (I mean they’re both within past week and both similar outcomes, neither asked for kill proof or LI I did check). The previous one was for matthias, and honestly I’m scared to ever try again bc what if I get another group that’s always asking for exp, exp, don’t down on last phase more than once, etc. It’s just really really hard to find a training run for this boss, and I would join one if I found one but I never do. Whenever I see any group posting for matt it’s always asking for exp, or if not exp then 120 LI or something ill never be able to achieve in a year at the rate I’m going. I will admit I messed up on the 2nd time I got that debuff placed on me, went to the closest fountain and obv it was red and someone immediately in group calling me out, ’he’s going to wrong fountain.. he’s not exp.. kick him’ and then the leader saying ‘yeah sry, I can’t do this’ and then insta-kick, no further discussion or anything saying what I was doing wrong (they never even mentioned the order beforehand).

To be clear I didn’t join for exp Matt post, but for w2 exp post so we cleared past sloth to matt fine. I figured I’d give it a shot and leave if I did something wrong but they don’t even give me that chance, instead they prefer to humiliate me by calling me out in chat and then kicking me soon after. If they asked me to leave I would’ve left. It’s not to hard and most groups I’ve seen have that decency at least to other ppl. But screaming their heads off for something I’m not even sure negatively affected the group in a big way and talking abt me like I was not even in group, then kicking me without even bothering to give me a heads up beforehand so I could choose to leave (and I think most ppl would’ve done the decent thing and left if asked) I think it’s a humiliating experience to have especially for pve content where everything’s supposed to be cooperative rather than competitive, only it’s actually more competitive bc ur either exp or ur not, you’ve either run raid content X times or you’ve not, you either have this particular class were looking for or u don’t. I just suddenly feel like it’s PvP again, where everything is like first to the finish line wins. That’s not a good feeling to have for pve even if it’s the most difficult content bc I know I’ve done t4 fractals and stuff like arah so yeah I’m not against challenging content, but again it’s so demanding now and u can see players are getting frustrated by the difficult content too (like how many mechanics u have to be aware of before even starting thr fight) that there are very few groups ever running on lfg for them, and most of them have strict reqs that I can’t satisfy, and the groups that I do end up joining are all on edge and want to get through as fast as possible with as few deaths as possible, and if they see anyone lagging behind or unsure on some mechanic it’s much easier to kick them and find another like maybe a trustworthy guildie who probably has 170 LI rather than spend 5min explaining it to them, and tell them if they can’t manage it on the next attempt then they will be asked to leave. Or am I wrong in feeling this way?

A bit too much to read in one sitting, but you might wanna look into RTI:
Raid Training Initiative; RTI.enjin.com where both professionals and newcomers come
and have fun together in raids. No competition, just training, fun and/or kill-oriented runs.

id suggest you to give it time iv been through that stage as well i remember raging about how ill be exp if they dont let me get exp and every run i tried was kitten and ppl raged and left 2 tries later. The key for me was to not make raiding the be all and end all of my play time in this game, i ust let it grow on its wn i looked around for groups met ppl made friends whhere i could get a field training with and then raiding came i personally idnt look for raiding guild but just joined 2 or 3 bigger guilds and i raid with guys from these guilds my suggestion is just take it slow you will not be left behind by any means even if new raids come ppl will still do the previous ones so no reason to over do yourself take it slow find good ppl have fun wiping xD

I get why you don’t want to join training runs. IMO there are way to many people that don’t know their class, let alone boss mechanics.

I´am fairly experienced in raids, kill all bosses multiple times a week.
Last month or so I finished gearing my chrono and thought: “Hey, lets join a training group to train chrono tanking.”

Figured out 1500 toughness isn’t enough to chronotank… Someone other than me was always aggroed. Nope, it wasn’t the druid. Sorry guys, if you don’t understand game mechanics or think a DPS class like Tempest should have more than 1k toughness, raids aren’t for you.

I started raiding late April of this year and killed my first Matthias mid May or something. I encountered him once before and that’s it.
I joined a group for Sloth. No problem, killed him first try. Since it went so smooth our group decided to go for trio. First try as well.
The group wanted to go further. I told them that i don’t have any kill exp on Matthias, encountered him once. I told them that I watched videos and I´ll leave if they won’t or that they could just kick me if I do something wrong.

Since i haven’t made any mistakes during Sloth and Trio the group decided to give me a chance.
We killed Matthias after 4 tries.

If you play good, groups will most likely give you a chance. Be honest with them and don’t tell them you are exp if you clearly aren’t.

Oh and btw. The order for the Sabetha cannons is South West North East South North West East.
There will be orange swords when a cannon spawns. So you can just use your minimap.

Oh great, another “raids are too hard” rant post, we didn’t have enough of those.

You have a tight schedule in real life? DON’T BLAME RAIDS
You don’t want to join Teamspeak? DON’T BLAME RAIDS (Challenging content requires a good & fast communication!)
You tell groups that you are experienced when you are clearly not? DON’T BLAME RAIDS (Sapper bombs are one of the most important/easy mechanics, and it’s really annoying when someone is just ignoring it)

Try changing your attitude instead, you are not the first one who started as a non experienced player.

nagr.1593:

All of them selfish and short on time…

How is that different to what YOU do? You expect a good, synchronized and established group to just take you and carry you through the raids quickly because you refuse to take your time and learn the encounters properly? Raids were made for hardcore players who are bored by the game and seeking an ultimate challenge. If you can barely log in a few times a week, then you’re – by definition – a casual player and might enjoy playing casual content more. If you’re getting into hardcore group content, you need to be able to log in whenever it’s needed. Expecting 9 other people to go out of their way to adapt to you is selfish and stupid.
So pretty much what Coconut said. Your struggle has nothing to do with raids, it’s about your attitude.

I think u are misunderstanding what I said, I never said fights like sab are too difficult in fact I actually enjoy them since its similar to adapting to new Bloomhunger in fotm content but the fact is that ppl are not willing to explain what you describe as “important/easy mechanics” so im fully aware and know what to do. In fact they’re rather kick me and replace then spend even 2min explaining to me and saying, bottom line if I can’t adapt on the next time we fight then they’re going to kick me or ask me to leave. Is it really that hard? And notice on the guilds especially I rely on ones by Dulfy, it passes over what to do exactly with sapper bombs like “ono ask your squad for advice where to use it” when its actually embarrassing to do so. Being told a specific order like ‘NESW NSEW’ is not helpful bc its not repeating and its hard to keep track of which is up next. Not all of us are so capable of understanding seemingly simple mechanics as u describe, when I can figure out flamewall and when heavy bombs drop and be ok with that then asking for simple heads up which direction to turn shouldn’t be as hard.

Its the little things that trip me up sometimes and in most raid groups no one bothers explaining those to me even after I confess that im exp but I never got the kill before. Its hard to rely on guide bc it happens different in real time and u only have a split second to decide usually and if u make the wrong decision then theres a huge risk of u getting booted and replaced. I understand matt is a difficult boss but no one bothers telling me beforehand even something so simple as which direction they’re going in (clockwise or something diff?) and its hard to keep track of it even with all the markers especially when ur in panic mode. Telling me to not blame raids is not good advice when most encounters have some hidden or unmentioned mechanics that even most raid groups wont bother explaining and instead will prefer to replace u with someone more capable.

Eh, I can understand your point of view but try and see theirs as well: Raids are not easy, and sometimes if 1 does a mistake, 9 have to pay for it (especially at sabetha).

It’s full of guides (both written and videos on youtube) about each encounter and also a description of each roles. Expecting someone to type out the whole guide in a game chat it’s a bit too much.

To explain sabetha in details one would need more time writing it down than actually killing it with a group where everybody knows what to do.
I’m not saying that you have to lie and say you’re an expert when you’re not, and yes, some people can have a toxic attitude.

If you don’t like them, don’t party with them, put them in your block list and go on with your game: you’ll find other people to party with.
And don’t disregard “training runs”: if you don’t know the encounter well enough, that’s where you belong. Once you’ll know the encounter and managed to kill the boss a couple of times, you’ll be able to call yourself “an exp” (as weird as it may sounds, most of the parties looking for “exp players” are just looking for people with some experience in the encounter, not really “expert players” of their class and its ins and outs)

Tbh, if you have to have any mechanic explained to you, you aren’t experienced in the fight.

I don’t know about others, but when I’m looking for an “exp player” to fill a role, I’m not looking for someone I have to explain mechanics to.

If you don’t know all of the mechanics of a fight, in and out, then you belong in training runs/guild, putting in your time learning the fights, same as others have done before you.

Few things:

1) Try to be concise. If it takes 2 full posts to get your point across, chances are you are ranting. Most people will read such very long post as a rant, not as a constructive post.

2) An “Exp” run does (usually) imply the kill or near kill on the boss by all members of the raid. All mechanics should be known. Most groups will demand kill proofs.

3) Entry level on raids is bad, to this I agree. Most dungeon groups demanded that people knew how to speedrun them. If you didn’t, you got kicked. Raids upped the ante by increasing the number of people to 10 and being far less forgiving to new people.

4) If you aren’t willing to do training runs (see post by Amaimon for what I think is an excellent opportunity), then be prepared to be kicked. Most people do not want to risk spending 3+ hours on a boss and not kill it at the end of the day, which is a real risk when running with new people. They would rather clear 2-3 full wings in that time in an experienced group.

Bottom line is this – if you want people to respect your time, you have to respect theirs.

I been kicked from raid groups twice so far in the span of less than a week, that’s more than im used to in a long long time and everytime I get kicked I usually block the persons involved bc I usually don’t deserve it (like getting kicked at last boss in dungeon or fotm just bc I said something relatively caustic to a pug with bunch of guildies running together, what was that 30min wasted for then?) but i’m just speechless when its 10 ppl standing by and allowing me get kicked its more of a faceslap than anything else. If i’m seeming to rant overmuch its because of that, if getting kicked from 2 groups so far bc I explained myself as best I could and asked a simple mechanic to be explained concisely to me so I could learn to do better next time (even if I attempt the boss with another group next time) does not allow me some room to rant abt this issue, then I guess I have to ask what issue you would consider a rant would be justified for.

I’ll give you an example, in tough bosses like Bloomhunger at t4 I’ve seen at times two people in group down and die all the time, even after being ressed they’re incapable of staying alive so my question is it even worth ressing them? In raids you can’t res at all agreed but how is that much different. I just had a group earlier today where we wiped once at last boss chaos fractal, three guys died pretty fast past 50% and one guy with 20k ap ragequit. We got another one, I gave a small peptalk something along the lines of ‘downed is dead here, pls don’t down its hard to res’ and yes a few still died, but we were able to get through it this time and it was only 2nd attempt so I was relieved. You get time wasted on t4 fractals too, if you die on a boss like that and risk causing ur group to wipe, should I be able to kick someone like that? Whether 5 people or 10 people, this is something similar cos it all boils down to exp with the fight. In fractals u can do easier levels to get adjusted to mechanics of the fight. There’s no option like that with raids and they just prefer to boot you outright than explain a seemingly “simple mechanic” (another poster’s words, not mine) that would maybe take 2min tops to explain. I’ve never downed in sab fight either and when I die its cos we all decide to start over again. How is this so insanely different from wasting time in t4 fotm? I’ve had terrible groups that did fine until last boss in molten furnace (the ice boss) and then we spent 30min dying even on the run since mobs kept killing us, and in the end we were getting nowhere so I was forced to leave. Explain to me how raids are so much more insanely difficult to master when u run the risk of wasting a similar amount of time even though there’s a few additional ppl in group? In group content I expected everyone to work together as a team rather than tear each other apart for small mistakes. I just finished Gors on first try with 1 guy in squad dead since halfway through fight. Why should that guy be allowed to get the kill when he did 0 dps in the state he was in?

Its just this simple : You need any mechanic to be explained to you? If so you need to join a training group, no excuse.
If you know every mechanic and saw at least 1 time every mechanic by yourself ( even if you dont got a kill ) then you join an exp group. Its what training and exp groups are, you just joined the wrong one on sab.

OnizukaBR.8537:

Its just this simple : You need any mechanic to be explained to you? If so you need to join a training group, no excuse.
If you know every mechanic and saw at least 1 time every mechanic by yourself ( even if you dont got a kill ) then you join an exp group. Its what training and exp groups are, you just joined the wrong one on sab.

^This

One thing is being exp’d but not quite gotten your kill on a boss yet. That’s totally understandable, and everyone has gone through that stage with every boss. Though by walking into a group stating, “I’m exp but don’t have the kill” I would have to assume you are familiar with all the mechanics of the fight and have hands-on practice/experience. So, I can’t say I blame groups that are frustrated with you for jeopardizing the fight because you mess up on a mechanic as you introduced yourself as “exp’d”.

If you’re not familiar with a certain mechanic with a fight? Be honest about and say something along the lines of “I’m familiar with the fight, but might need a few things explained.” If a group kicks you then? Well, they may not have the patience/time to walk someone through the mechanics and would rather have someone seasoned who’s ready to go. And no, it’s not as simple as “spend two minutes explaining the mechanic” as at that point you only have theoretical knowledge of the mechanic and not applied knowledge. Plus, if you’re upfront about being unclear about an encounter the group may opt to place you in a less pressured role to where you’re still contributing, but you don’t have as much of a critical role to play.

In your case I would have to agree with others and say that you should go with a training group or form your own team with others of similar experience. Coming from the other side of the squad nothing is more frustrating than inviting a player who states a certain degree of skill/experience but can’t deliver on it. In short, please don’t join an exp if you’re not truly exp’d. The other players in the squad will know if someone is trying to slip in for a carry, and it honestly wastes the time of 10 players.

OnizukaBR.8537:

Its just this simple : You need any mechanic to be explained to you? If so you need to join a training group, no excuse.
If you know every mechanic and saw at least 1 time every mechanic by yourself ( even if you dont got a kill ) then you join an exp group. Its what training and exp groups are, you just joined the wrong one on sab.

If its so simple then why is it so hard for me to find a training group as opposed to any other exp group doing the same boss? 90% of the time I look on the lfg and its only exp posts or 200 LI ONLY blablah, and rarely do I find any training groups for the bosses that I need (sab and matt which are said to be the hardest). Do you understand how someone new to HoT might find getting into raids extremely daunting at first. The easiest way is probably to ask a raid guild for training run on a particular boss. I’ve tried once but no one offered, i don’t like being forced to request something in guild chat. It makes me nervous and unsure of myself. I don’t want to just give up and buy one of those runs either, even though I can easily afford it I would view it as being defeatist and giving up, bc i’m incapable of finishing the boss myself since no group will have me. I don’t like the only option being forced to beg a guild I barely know for training run on one particular boss i’m having trouble with. Like there has to be a much more comfortable way for me to get exp, only no one wants to post on lfg for training runs on bosses that I actually need and rarely does anyone run raids anymore except the only very elite who have full ascended everything on 4 diff alts.

nagr.1593:

OnizukaBR.8537:

Its just this simple : You need any mechanic to be explained to you? If so you need to join a training group, no excuse.
If you know every mechanic and saw at least 1 time every mechanic by yourself ( even if you dont got a kill ) then you join an exp group. Its what training and exp groups are, you just joined the wrong one on sab.

If its so simple then why is it so hard for me to find a training group as opposed to any other exp group doing the same boss? 90% of the time I look on the lfg and its only exp posts or 200 LI ONLY blablah, and rarely do I find any training groups for the bosses that I need (sab and matt which are said to be the hardest). Do you understand how someone new to HoT might find getting into raids extremely daunting at first. The easiest way is probably to ask a raid guild for training run on a particular boss. I’ve tried once but no one offered, i don’t like being forced to request something in guild chat. It makes me nervous and unsure of myself. I don’t want to just give up and buy one of those runs either, even though I can easily afford it I would view it as being defeatist and giving up, bc i’m incapable of finishing the boss myself since no group will have me. I don’t like the only option being forced to beg a guild I barely know for training run on one particular boss i’m having trouble with. Like there has to be a much more comfortable way for me to get exp, only no one wants to post on lfg for training runs on bosses that I actually need and rarely does anyone run raids anymore except the only very elite who have full ascended everything on 4 diff alts.

Here is a novel idea: Create your own group, and set it up as a training run from the start.

You are the only one that is limiting your options, simply because you are looking for someone else to take the steps for you. You don’t want to ask in guild, that’s on you. You don’t want to join/look for a training guild, that’s on you. You and you alone are responsible for building up your experience level. Once you take ownership of your own game experience, it’ll be much better.

Create your own training runs, Join/Create your own raiding guild/roster.

The community is there, if you choose not to join it, it’s not their fault.

Icetea.3204:

I get why you don’t want to join training runs. IMO there are way to many people that don’t know their class, let alone boss mechanics.

I´am fairly experienced in raids, kill all bosses multiple times a week.
Last month or so I finished gearing my chrono and thought: “Hey, lets join a training group to train chrono tanking.”

Figured out 1500 toughness isn’t enough to chronotank… Someone other than me was always aggroed. Nope, it wasn’t the druid. Sorry guys, if you don’t understand game mechanics or think a DPS class like Tempest should have more than 1k toughness, raids aren’t for you.

I started raiding late April of this year and killed my first Matthias mid May or something. I encountered him once before and that’s it.
I joined a group for Sloth. No problem, killed him first try. Since it went so smooth our group decided to go for trio. First try as well.
The group wanted to go further. I told them that i don’t have any kill exp on Matthias, encountered him once. I told them that I watched videos and I´ll leave if they won’t or that they could just kick me if I do something wrong.

Since i haven’t made any mistakes during Sloth and Trio the group decided to give me a chance.
We killed Matthias after 4 tries.

If you play good, groups will most likely give you a chance. Be honest with them and don’t tell them you are exp if you clearly aren’t.

Oh and btw. The order for the Sabetha cannons is South West North East South North West East.
There will be orange swords when a cannon spawns. So you can just use your minimap.

Ok yes, I should have said something at Matt like I’m not exp, pls kick me if I do something wrong. But honestly I’m not sure if it would’ve made any difference bc they ended up kicking me soon anyway (after 2nd wipe). I was in similar group as urs. I never messed up on sloth or trio either despite not having kill exp with sloth and reading guides beforehand, we got sloth on 2nd try bc the tank messed up the 1st time (said as well in chat). But we get to matt and suddenly it’s like radio silence that whole fight, and when they call me out its like 1st word they ever said in a while. Not sure how to respond so I don’t, they’re not rly addressing me either so I don’t know how they expect me to say anything. Then I get kicked after 2nd attempt, yeah it maybe a couple months after u ran with a similar group so they’re maybe used to running it weekly now, but th at just emphasizes the problem I been having.

Also thanks for heads up on the sapper bombs for sab. Only person on this thread to actually bother reading my OP and offer something insightful abt the fight. The guide on dulfy doesn’t seem to explain this either (look it up if u don’t believe me). I just don’t get it bc my group could’ve just explained the minimap thing to me like how hard would that be, rather than dumping some random order on me like SWNE etc. and expecting me to remember that immediately after they say it like wtf cmon.

Raids are a very different sort of content than anything else in the game. In fractals you can join a random pug group and be fine. Raids are not like that. It is absolutely critical that when pugging you find a group that matches your skill level. It is unfortunate that you are late to the party, because you’re right about there being fewer training raids, but if you aren’t familiar with a boss only join training for that boss. Also, with raids exp doesn’t mean that you’ve done the boss a few times. Exp usually means that you can comfortably deal with all mechanics for a one-shot kill.

The reason that raiders get the reputation of being elitist is that we’ve all put in a lot of effort into learning the fights and know what it takes to get a kill. When someone doesn’t do something properly, it becomes very difficult to win.

That being said, there are a lot of people who do training raids, but they are usually in guilds nowadays. A guild has incentive to build up inexperienced players so that they can fill spots on their static teams when people are out, or even make multiple teams. Since guilds play together frequently, the exp people who do the training get the benefits of it by getting to play with those same people. In contrast, if someone leads a pug training raid, they likely won’t ever see those people again. They will have put hours of work in, and gotten no benefit.

If you really want to get into raids, a raid guild is the way to go. I know you mentioned that you tried this, but just asking for a training raid at some point likely won’t work. These guild usually have set times they do their training raids, and so I’d recommend trying to find one that works with your schedule. People will usually only lead training raids once per week because it is a lot of work for little reward.

Step 1: Identify a time of the week that you will almost always be free
Step 2: Find a group that does training raids at that time. This may be difficult, but do your best.
Step 3. Attend those raids every week. If you do this for a while, you will start to become one of the experienced people teaching others.
Step 4: People will likely start pulling you into other raids. The consistent training raid is a great place to start networking, which is the best way to get into more good groups.

That all being said, if it is not possible for you to do some of the stuff I mentioned, raids might just not be right for you right now. Did you play before raids came out? Did you have fun then? Those things are still in the game. Don’t get frustrated over raids when the whole rest of the game is open to you.

GLHF

savacli.8172:

OnizukaBR.8537:

Its just this simple : You need any mechanic to be explained to you? If so you need to join a training group, no excuse.
If you know every mechanic and saw at least 1 time every mechanic by yourself ( even if you dont got a kill ) then you join an exp group. Its what training and exp groups are, you just joined the wrong one on sab.

^This

One thing is being exp’d but not quite gotten your kill on a boss yet. That’s totally understandable, and everyone has gone through that stage with every boss. Though by walking into a group stating, “I’m exp but don’t have the kill” I would have to assume you are familiar with all the mechanics of the fight and have hands-on practice/experience. So, I can’t say I blame groups that are frustrated with you for jeopardizing the fight because you mess up on a mechanic as you introduced yourself as “exp’d”.

If you’re not familiar with a certain mechanic with a fight? Be honest about and say something along the lines of “I’m familiar with the fight, but might need a few things explained.” If a group kicks you then? Well, they may not have the patience/time to walk someone through the mechanics and would rather have someone seasoned who’s ready to go. And no, it’s not as simple as “spend two minutes explaining the mechanic” as at that point you only have theoretical knowledge of the mechanic and not applied knowledge. Plus, if you’re upfront about being unclear about an encounter the group may opt to place you in a less pressured role to where you’re still contributing, but you don’t have as much of a critical role to play.

In your case I would have to agree with others and say that you should go with a training group or form your own team with others of similar experience. Coming from the other side of the squad nothing is more frustrating than inviting a player who states a certain degree of skill/experience but can’t deliver on it. In short, please don’t join an exp if you’re not truly exp’d. The other players in the squad will know if someone is trying to slip in for a carry, and it honestly wastes the time of 10 players.

i would love to join pug groups. except i have 2 boss kills. every lfg requires 100+

sophiewhite.3149:

savacli.8172:

OnizukaBR.8537:

Its just this simple : You need any mechanic to be explained to you? If so you need to join a training group, no excuse.
If you know every mechanic and saw at least 1 time every mechanic by yourself ( even if you dont got a kill ) then you join an exp group. Its what training and exp groups are, you just joined the wrong one on sab.

^This

One thing is being exp’d but not quite gotten your kill on a boss yet. That’s totally understandable, and everyone has gone through that stage with every boss. Though by walking into a group stating, “I’m exp but don’t have the kill” I would have to assume you are familiar with all the mechanics of the fight and have hands-on practice/experience. So, I can’t say I blame groups that are frustrated with you for jeopardizing the fight because you mess up on a mechanic as you introduced yourself as “exp’d”.

If you’re not familiar with a certain mechanic with a fight? Be honest about and say something along the lines of “I’m familiar with the fight, but might need a few things explained.” If a group kicks you then? Well, they may not have the patience/time to walk someone through the mechanics and would rather have someone seasoned who’s ready to go. And no, it’s not as simple as “spend two minutes explaining the mechanic” as at that point you only have theoretical knowledge of the mechanic and not applied knowledge. Plus, if you’re upfront about being unclear about an encounter the group may opt to place you in a less pressured role to where you’re still contributing, but you don’t have as much of a critical role to play.

In your case I would have to agree with others and say that you should go with a training group or form your own team with others of similar experience. Coming from the other side of the squad nothing is more frustrating than inviting a player who states a certain degree of skill/experience but can’t deliver on it. In short, please don’t join an exp if you’re not truly exp’d. The other players in the squad will know if someone is trying to slip in for a carry, and it honestly wastes the time of 10 players.

i would love to join pug groups. except i have 2 boss kills. every lfg requires 100+

Find a training lfg or training guild…..

as many others have said, if you do not know the mechanics, especially green bombs at sabetha, you are not experienced.

There are different kind of situations:
- If you need training, go with training group, yes that means spending more time learning the mechanisms, but heh, your ascended armor doesn’t magically create the experience you need. There’s nothing humiliating in doing training. Every good raider went through it, even the toxic raiders.

- If you’re mid experienced (gotten a few kills, understand the mechanisms, just need to get used to them), you might want to join semi-casual raid guilds. If you join guilds as mid experienced, there are a few out there that are very nice and full of people who play the game as it’s intended (a game, not a job). You’re not gonna get kills as fast as you could, but there won’t be this feeling of competitive BS that you’re talking about.

- If you got so many kills and are so experienced that you call yourself pro player, you might wanna try pro guilds. The players overall are good but it often feels awkward how much kittenish they can get about failure. I myself got silent kicked once for not performing good enough with a new class I was experimenting so yeah, not great if you’re looking for peaceful, friendly raids.

The issue you’re having is that you don’t want to deal with “pro” raiders cause they can be competitive and stressful, but a good part of your post is also about calling out noobs, choose what side you want to be on.
It’s not PVP, you’re not forced to play against people you don’t know, you can just play with friends and make it the experience you want.

I’ll try to give constructive advice first, then move on to harsher criticism.

On sabetha specifically,
- Make sure your special action key is bound to something you can press quickly. Something close to your fingers. I have mine on shift+mouse 4
- Turn on the option for aoe’s at maximum range. It helps you throw from further away.
- Zoom your mini map all the way in. It helps tell the different directions apart
- Download gw2 taco (tactical overlay) if you’re still having trouble with which direction is up. Heck, I still use it because it’s one less thing to think about during the fight.

Now, the criticism.

Sorry, but you’re in the wrong here.

As others have mentioned, if you join an exp group (or any group not labeled as training, really) then you need to know the mechanics. Do whatever it takes to get this done. Join training runs, watch YouTube videos, ask guild members whatever.

This is especially essential in sabetha and matthias, as mechanics are assigned semi-randomly and have the potential to wipe the group. As a small aside, teamspeak is extremely useful for groups here as a commander can call out what to do when something goes wrong (e.g. backup, skip it, wipe).

If you don’t know the mechanics, you’re wasting everyone’s time. Period. Take your “two attempts,” say 15 minutes, multiply it by 9, and you’ve wasted over 2 hours.

Pugs have no incentive to train you. They’ll never see you again. And they can easily get someone else who actually knows the fight. Guilds do have an incentive to train, because they’re dealing with repeat players.

It’s ok not to know the fight. But the solution is to learn it. Not go into pug runs and expect them to train you.

Absurdo.8309:

Sorry, but you’re in the wrong here.

I don’t join exp runs without knowing the mechanics (or making sure I know them from what I read mentioned). Like I said I learn from diff sources and imo it’s not necessary to actually ‘run’ some of the easier bosses before joining exp group, VG and Gors for most part are faceroll with decent group (but only if u don’t have assigned tasks like tanking or dealing condis, then yea u would need to practice that on ur own), even Sloth for the most part is faceroll bc I understood mechanics even like fixation on 1st attempt with a non-training group, no one called me out of anything and we were fine, obv might’ve been diff story if I had been tasked to grub duty yea I get that. The only trouble I had with Sab (literally the only trouble I had, since I read through guide twice so I had a good idea what to do) was the green bombs and yea it seems simple enough now that I understand it but my point is raid groups are too unforgiving even for small mistakes. The mistake was not even technically mine since look at dulfy the order of cannons spawning was not even mentioned once on the section abt sapper bombs, nor the fact u can just look at minimap to make it so much easier. Yet I’m expected to know this immediately after hearing the full order given to me in chat for 1st time, how does that work? They could’ve given me a chance to try again, since I only messed up once. Instead they replace me after 2nd wipe because like u said it’s much easier to find someone who knows what to do. So they shaved off maybe 10min, assuming they got it on the first try after they replaced me. That doesn’t sound a long time to me. I’ve even run around LA much longer than that, literally doing nothing.

Like I don’t even understand where u got 2 hours from. If one of the guys that posted said he had zero exp with matt and his group was able to kill him on 4th try, who’s to say I couldn’t have managed the same? I knew most of mechanics too I wasn’t entirely clueless as you seem to paint me as. Also 4 attempts in best case scenario, tell me how that adds up to 2 hours? I’m not even sure where you are getting these numbers from honestly. Sabetha is like 10min fight from start to completion. Of both groups I had they usually wiped at around 50%, though the first one got waay closer before we had to disband. So assuming three attempts of 10min (wiping at 50% would be liek half that but o well) it would only be 30min, sound good since I didn’t join for an entire wing clear on that where they’re running through content rly fast? The first wipe was my bad, the second one wasn’t. So essentially I only messed up once, and contributed to one wipe. Why was I not allowed to stay for one more attempt? Are groups really unwilling to waste 30min on a boss like sab. If the answer is yes then it makes me really sad, bc I been active pre-HoT a long time and ive run with exp groups for arah that take 1 whole hour to finish, sometimes even half an hour just on lupi. Honestly this was for much lower quality of loot even pre-nerf, I got a drop from Gors that I sold for 8g easily. So don’t give me this talk about 2 hours on sab, that’s honestly not realistic at all. Most of what u said doesn’t make any sense except the part abt matt, yeah I get it he’s the toughest boss in raids so maybe I need real kill exp with him. But honestly you seem to distort everything I’ve been trying to get across. Expecting pug groups to train me, where did u get that from? Did I ask training for sloth or xera when I joined for first time. No because I had good idea what to do, I watched some guides and vids and felt pretty confident. we wiped once on xera cos I fell off, but 2nd or 3rd time was enough for us to get the kill. You are blowing this way out of proportion just like most ppl who are responding with harsh criticism and ‘get good or get out’ posts. I never asked training on sab, I literally asked for one simple but important mechanic explained to me which they failed to do, then later kicked me bc a guildie wanted to join. I don’t understand why pugs are so distrustful. Like they expect the worst of u, even if they see ur running the right build and doing everything else correctly they just make a big deal of a one misstep with green bombs that they end up kicking you. Yeah that definitely would not have been hours and hours wasted given the fact I was not a complete newbie to the boss. But again that’s how competitive it is now, and yeah pugs don’t have any incentive to care at all but how about a little sympathy and helpful tips which I found even in pug groups for arah, where most ppl felt bad about not making the runs or messing up on bosses multiple times? I can guarantee most of them posted for exp runs too. But your right, this is raids after all so an insta-kick for a person not 100.00% exp in pug groups is just ok. Sounds about right

BlaqueFyre.5678:

sophiewhite.3149:

savacli.8172:

OnizukaBR.8537:

Its just this simple : You need any mechanic to be explained to you? If so you need to join a training group, no excuse.
If you know every mechanic and saw at least 1 time every mechanic by yourself ( even if you dont got a kill ) then you join an exp group. Its what training and exp groups are, you just joined the wrong one on sab.

^This

One thing is being exp’d but not quite gotten your kill on a boss yet. That’s totally understandable, and everyone has gone through that stage with every boss. Though by walking into a group stating, “I’m exp but don’t have the kill” I would have to assume you are familiar with all the mechanics of the fight and have hands-on practice/experience. So, I can’t say I blame groups that are frustrated with you for jeopardizing the fight because you mess up on a mechanic as you introduced yourself as “exp’d”.

If you’re not familiar with a certain mechanic with a fight? Be honest about and say something along the lines of “I’m familiar with the fight, but might need a few things explained.” If a group kicks you then? Well, they may not have the patience/time to walk someone through the mechanics and would rather have someone seasoned who’s ready to go. And no, it’s not as simple as “spend two minutes explaining the mechanic” as at that point you only have theoretical knowledge of the mechanic and not applied knowledge. Plus, if you’re upfront about being unclear about an encounter the group may opt to place you in a less pressured role to where you’re still contributing, but you don’t have as much of a critical role to play.

In your case I would have to agree with others and say that you should go with a training group or form your own team with others of similar experience. Coming from the other side of the squad nothing is more frustrating than inviting a player who states a certain degree of skill/experience but can’t deliver on it. In short, please don’t join an exp if you’re not truly exp’d. The other players in the squad will know if someone is trying to slip in for a carry, and it honestly wastes the time of 10 players.

i would love to join pug groups. except i have 2 boss kills. every lfg requires 100+

Find a training lfg or training guild…..

am i really supposed to train for 100+ times before i can run with groups that actually have decent success? training groups only kill the first boss. ive killed 2 so far.

sophiewhite.3149:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

sophiewhite.3149:

savacli.8172:

OnizukaBR.8537:

Its just this simple : You need any mechanic to be explained to you? If so you need to join a training group, no excuse.
If you know every mechanic and saw at least 1 time every mechanic by yourself ( even if you dont got a kill ) then you join an exp group. Its what training and exp groups are, you just joined the wrong one on sab.

^This

One thing is being exp’d but not quite gotten your kill on a boss yet. That’s totally understandable, and everyone has gone through that stage with every boss. Though by walking into a group stating, “I’m exp but don’t have the kill” I would have to assume you are familiar with all the mechanics of the fight and have hands-on practice/experience. So, I can’t say I blame groups that are frustrated with you for jeopardizing the fight because you mess up on a mechanic as you introduced yourself as “exp’d”.

If you’re not familiar with a certain mechanic with a fight? Be honest about and say something along the lines of “I’m familiar with the fight, but might need a few things explained.” If a group kicks you then? Well, they may not have the patience/time to walk someone through the mechanics and would rather have someone seasoned who’s ready to go. And no, it’s not as simple as “spend two minutes explaining the mechanic” as at that point you only have theoretical knowledge of the mechanic and not applied knowledge. Plus, if you’re upfront about being unclear about an encounter the group may opt to place you in a less pressured role to where you’re still contributing, but you don’t have as much of a critical role to play.

In your case I would have to agree with others and say that you should go with a training group or form your own team with others of similar experience. Coming from the other side of the squad nothing is more frustrating than inviting a player who states a certain degree of skill/experience but can’t deliver on it. In short, please don’t join an exp if you’re not truly exp’d. The other players in the squad will know if someone is trying to slip in for a carry, and it honestly wastes the time of 10 players.

i would love to join pug groups. except i have 2 boss kills. every lfg requires 100+

Find a training lfg or training guild…..

am i really supposed to train for 100+ times before i can run with groups that actually have decent success? training groups only kill the first boss. ive killed 2 so far.

No you don’t but training groups kill more than just the first boss, find a raid training guild there are quite a few, both NA and EU. Or you can always make your own group…

nagr.1593:

this is raids after all so an insta-kick for a person not 100.00% exp in pug groups is just ok. Sounds about right

Tbh – there is nothing you can do about that.. that’s how it is. If you give a weak impression you get substituted – simple as that. Raiding is hard in the beginning. This might sound ‘wrong’ but: Learn as much as you can before you start and then do as you did: join an exp group and try. Worst thing that could happen: you get kicked… well try again!
Groups might get angry about you for not telling that you are unexperienced and tricked them.. but since the system is like it is – this is the best way to get experienced…
But you have to handle the ‘feedback’ after you get debunked.

Oh and: The exp raiders aren’t the only ones who want to be efficient… go for an exp group is the most efficient way for newcommers to get exp… but kinda rude, i admitt.

Again ppl calling me unexperienced makes me feel like I’m doing something terribly wrong when I’m not. I used to hate when people who were inexperienced joined for exp posts in dungeon runs too, esp since it was obvious in some paths like cof (path 1). There’s nothing wrong about feeling insulted like that when ppl just disrespect ur posts completely, like they don’t even bother to read lfg at all. What I’m doing is really not that rude that it would necessitate a kick. Again this being raids there are sometimes levels of exp that are not that different from dungeons used to be honestly. Like someone can run one path of arah and know how fight with lupi works, then join another path for 1st time and say they’re kinda exp with it. I know like most of mechanics in theory but sometimes i can’t know it all, like something guides brush over cos it relies on squad for direction and assignment of tasks. I don’t get why everyone saying I should stop joining exp runs when I’m not. I’m not a newcomer to raids honestly like I said in OP just two bosses I been having trouble with and maybe matt would req training run I dunno but honestly most of them aren’t hard it just that most groups seem really on edge most of the time like they’d prefer not to waste a single min more then they have to.

So your point is: You are a decent skilled player who got kicked several times because you left the impession that you were unexpirienced, althoug the wipe wasn’t your fault. Right? (and you are angry about the people who kicked you instead of explaining the boss)

TheMSR.7120:

So your point is: You are a decent skilled player who got kicked several times because you left the impession that you were unexpirienced, althoug the wipe wasn’t your fault. Right? (and you are angry about the people who kicked you instead of explaining the boss)

I mean, he didn’t know the main mechanic of sabetha.

Which is fine … for a training run. Not a serious one.

There always seems to be a catch-22 effect in harder, instanced PvE content in MMO’s. There are only two ways around it: get in n the ground floor; or persevere and get lucky.

Good luck.

Don’t wait for people to teach you, go learn the raid yourself by watching the 1000s of videos that are online.

Sabetha is like so old now there are clear guides on what she does and what you need to do. If you don’t know where to throw the bombs (hint: it’s marked on the minimap) then it is a clear sign you didn’t prepare yourself accordingly.

Also this might be harsh but you probably think you’re better than you really are. Occasionally doing T4 fractals and full ascended doesn’t mean you’re good and it’s hard to really gauge how good you are even though you’ve cleared bosses (could’ve been carried).

The best thing for you is to go to training raids, make friends in those (the good players) then eventually they’ll invite you to some raid or you can invite them and form a semi-organized group that way.

nagr.1593:

Like someone can run one path of arah and know how fight with lupi works, then join another path for 1st time and say they’re kinda exp with it. I know like most of mechanics in theory but sometimes i can’t know it all, like something guides brush over cos it relies on squad for direction and assignment of tasks.

I think what some people are trying to say is that exp means somewhat different things in raids than in dungeons. For dungeons as long as you know generally what to do, you can get through just fine because it is easy content. However when people post for exp for raids, they usually want people who have killed that boss multiple times. It just means different things because of the difficulty of the content.

My advice to you is to just be up front with people as soon as you join a group. Suppose you join a group that is advertised as ‘Matty | need ele’ or something. Right at the start, say hello, and then give the disclaimer that you know most of the mechanics but don’t have a kill yet, and might need some of the finer points explained. There is a chance that they’ll just kick you, but usually people are very friendly when people are up front and honest with them. If they are rude and kick you, then you probably didn’t want to run with that group anyway.

People are just generally more welcoming and helpful if everyone is on the same page from the start.

Hope this helps.

fishball.7204:

Also this might be harsh but you probably think you’re better than you really are. Occasionally doing T4 fractals and full ascended doesn’t mean you’re good and it’s hard to really gauge how good you are even though you’ve cleared bosses (could’ve been carried).

You obviously don’t know my history and that’s ok i’m not going to bother explaining myself here. I never said I was better than other people in my raid and honestly I’ve joined regular groups for VG (not training runs either since they explained nothing) and we had so many wipes cos the guys who were ranging couldn’t do something as simple as stand in green circles when they had to (my guess they didn’t even know how many needed to stand in green). Tell me what level of skill that in itself speaks for them. You don’t need to be a genius to follow simple mechanics like that, I never said otherwise. I’m just saying mechanics at sab are not that different either. I don’t know why some people have it so ingrained in their minds that exp means full blown exp, otherwise don’t bother joining you’ll waste hours and hours of their time and they’ll never finish. I don’t know what to say but judging from some comments those ppl actually seem to believe this.

Let’s assume you’re right though, then what’s the point of groups that req kill proof of some bosses? Yes I’ve had to provide that sometimes like on Gors etc. its not as rigid as LI reqs which are honestly overblown. Maybe all the people who join for those groups have been carried, so how does kill proof help at all in that scenario except provide somewhat better chance of clearing boss? Most people seem to think its extremely unlikely that u can clear a boss fine on 1st try (with no wipes at all) when there’s no LI or kill proof reqs posted. If that’s the case then maybe I should quit pve right now, since this community has lost its sense of direction and unity.

@Absurdo I don’t like your attitude either man, you remind me of one of those ppl who constantly kicked me out of low lvl fractals when I was starting out and had really low AP just cos I looked at them funny or couldn’t make the jumps in molten furnace at the then time (literally that). Just to prove you wrong i’m going to join an exp group for sab and finish it with nobody calling me out or kicking me from group. I’ll keep you posted

I mean you say the mechanics at sab are easy but you couldn’t even do it so who’s fault is it?

You joined an experienced group when you clearly weren’t.

My issue with this topic is not about taking newbies or less experienced players to any of the wings. It is not even about feeling like someone is wasting my time. My problem is and always will be with people not being honest with you and those who feel entitled to everyone’s help, time and effort by simply playing the game.

My honest advice is quite simple, though:
Try to be honest with others and try to be charming. Tell them you know they are probably or even clearly asking for someone more experienced but you aren’t a bad player and a quick learner. You might not be experienced with all of the bosses in a certain raid wing but you are willing to learn if someone would be so nice to explain the raid to you. Many would much rather go with someone nice like that than someone who is more experienced but doesn’t communicate or help to make the run enjoyable in any way.
There are those who’ll kick you, and without a reason even when someone needs to be blamed for the wipe of course. I still feel like there are way more nice groups out there than most seem to think.
Also, it is their good right to exclude you from the run if they feel like you aren’t or wouldn’t be up to what they are asking for. It might not be the nicest of things but there is nothing wrong with it.

If there’s such a great risk of getting kicked from exp groups that don’t even ask for kill proof or LI, then I don’t see how it would benefit someone to be more honest and open when there are alrdy so few groups running it (during the times I’m on). I always see raid selling groups and get disheartened. The most common groups are LI, kill proof, exp groups maybe in that order too, and the training groups on the lfg are either nonexistent or only for certain easy bosses like VG that I honestly don’t know why you would need training for. Given that exp groups for bosses you need are hard to find, then training runs for those same bosses are even more harder to find. If anything the current system would force others to be more dishonest and tight-lipped when joining exp groups. What’s the worst that can happen? If it’s getting kicked for wasting a couple mins of group’s time then perhaps it’s much faster to join exp groups for bosses whose mechanics you don’t know so that you acquire some measure of familiarity with boss mechanics before they figure out that u are not in fact exp and kick you out.

People like Absurdo are trying to conjure up.. absurd elitist notions like the fact that 10min wasted for the whole raid group is actually one and a half hour wasted bc (10min x 9 people) = 90min, given that you don’t mind wasting your own time. Tell me in what world that makes any sense.

Ultimately, you need to be realistically honest both with yourself and with groups if you want a good chance of completing the raids.

You claim to be experienced, but that’s not actually the case. You needed mechanics explained, so you’re not experienced. When a group gets someone that lies about their experience level, they kick and block, so you’ll never have a chance to raid with those people again.

On the other hand, being honest about your experience has no lasting downsides. Groups asking for experienced members will probably decline to take you, and that’s their right to do so. However, many groups will at least give you a chance if you’ve completed other bosses/seem competent. I know that I’m personally ok with explaining mechanics for bosses sometimes in my group. Sometimes I’m too tired to deal with that hassle though, and it’s my right to decide whether or not I want to deal with that.

If you’re so inexperienced that you can’t honestly say that you’ve killed multiple other bosses/are familiar with raid mechanics in general, then you need to do training runs or find a guild willing to train new raiders. That’s simply how it is.

Let me relate this to a PvP analogy. Let’s say you got someone in your group that claims to be an experienced PvPer. When pressed, they admit that their experience mainly consists of a few games of unranked spirit watch. Would you want to keep that player on your team or find someone actually capable? Same thing in raids.

Fay.2357:

You claim to be experienced, but that’s not actually the case. You needed mechanics explained, so you’re not experienced. When a group gets someone that lies about their experience level, they kick and block, so you’ll never have a chance to raid with those people again.

Not true, I joined a raid group a week ago for an lfg post with someone who had blocked me in the group. I was able to hear him in voice chat even though I prob couldn’t read what he said in group chat. Its much better to add people as friends that you want to block and add a note next to their name like ‘Known kicker’ rather than blocking them, which basically means you can’t see their lfg posts either. That’s my understanding of it honestly. It’s been this way for months and months. People I block are able to join my dungeon groups when I post, bc they haven’t blocked me in return. So the notion that getting blocked means you can’t join their raid groups again is misinformed i.e, if you have a friend in the same group as someone who’s blocked you, why should that in itself disqualify you from joining the group your friend is in?

nagr.1593:

Fay.2357:

You claim to be experienced, but that’s not actually the case. You needed mechanics explained, so you’re not experienced. When a group gets someone that lies about their experience level, they kick and block, so you’ll never have a chance to raid with those people again.

Not true, I joined a raid group a week ago for an lfg post with someone who had blocked me in the group. I was able to hear him in voice chat even though I prob couldn’t read what he said in group chat. Its much better to add people as friends that you want to block and add a note next to their name like ‘Known kicker’ rather than blocking them, which basically means you can’t see their lfg posts either. That’s my understanding of it honestly. It’s been this way for months and months. People I block are able to join my dungeon groups when I post, bc they haven’t blocked me in return. So the notion that getting blocked means you can’t join their raid groups again is misinformed i.e, if you have a friend in the same group as someone who’s blocked you, why should that in itself disqualify you from joining the group your friend is in?

Apparently I need to be more explicitly clear…

I’m not talking about technical limitations of the system. I’m talking about realistic interactions with other players. If you lie about your experience level, the group leader (and likely others in the group) will kick you and block you. In the future, attempting to join a party with those people will likely result you in getting kicked instantly as soon as they notice that you’re on their block lists. Make sense?

Honestly, most people don’t even look at their blocks list once they block someone, similar to how I never bother to check whos online in the list of ppl who are following me. Even if I start flaming the chat to drastically increase the chance that the leader of the group would add me to their blocks list after i’m kicked, doesn’t guarantee ill get insta-kicked when I join the same group again (not that I think it wise to do so).

I joined a raid group with someone who had me on block since months and months ago already in it, and announced it to the group in chat as soon as I joined as well (they never responded back). I provided kill proof like they asked, we finished boss on 2nd try and then we all disbanded. So tell me how someone in a group blocking you means you can never group with them again.

Fay.2357:

Ultimately, you need to be realistically honest both with yourself and with groups if you want a good chance of completing the raids.

You claim to be experienced, but that’s not actually the case. You needed mechanics explained, so you’re not experienced.

On the other hand, being honest about your experience * has no lasting downsides*. Groups asking for experienced members will probably decline to take you, and that’s their right to do so.

However, many groups will at least give you a chance if you’ve completed other bosses/seem competent. I know that I’m personally ok with explaining mechanics for bosses sometimes in my group. Sometimes I’m too tired to deal with that hassle though, and it’s my right to decide whether or not I want to deal with that.

If you’re so inexperienced that you can’t honestly say that you’ve killed multiple other bosses/are familiar with raid mechanics in general, then you need to do training runs or find a guild willing to train new raiders. That’s simply how it is.

Ill go over each of your points and discuss them, it’s hard to do this splitting up ur post as I’m on mobile. Anyway on your first point I would ask, why does everyone who joins a random pug group posting for exp (who obv don’t have any ‘incentive to care about you’ when u join, as someone else stated) realistically need to be honest to complete raid content or get a boss kill on 1st attempt? What is their own (the player who join the lfg) incentive to be honest towards the pug group? I don’t see any absolute need to be honest with a group that can easily kick u and replace u with a guildie once u have confessed the truth to them. Do you see my point? Let me relate you something I observed about most players who join lfg posts I used to make, years ago. Most of them outright ignored the stated post when they joined. When I posted for ‘exp’, I got noobs sometimes who had to have things explained to them. When I posted for ‘mes only’ for runs like Arah where we needed one at lupi, guess who would join and when asked would later admit he didn’t have mes but he was exp, or would claim ignorance on even reading the post before hitting join? The truth is that majority of player base is dishonest all the time, or don’t care enough to read the lfg before they join. Again someone will say how this is diff because we are talking about raid groups on the lfg, but be honest and tell me this doesn’t happen all the time in raids. We had to kick a rev at the start of a boss just a few days ago at a boss bc he was running some hammer build, and acted like that was fine. Tell me was he being honest with us or even himself?

Your next (and last) point is that I’m simply not experienced at all with boss I join for, or to take it a step further I’m not experienced with raid content at all, since I’m just another ranting newcomer to general mechanics of raids so I deserve to be kicked from every exp group out there. That’s simply how it is, I need to accept it. I completely agree with u on this

When you say about being honest about my hands-on exp (or lack thereof) with pug groups that post for exp as having no downside, that makes sense bc if I get insta-kicked after joining and saying something ridiculous like I’m a complete newbie to raids, theres no downside to me being forced to wait about half an hour before I see any other exp post to join where I run the similar risk of them kicking me when I join and relate my exp again.

I like your next point in particular, where you say how how most groups will at least give me chance if I seem to be competent and have completed other bosses. This makes sense bc those 2 groups that kicked me within past week all had that in mind. The first group being an exp wing clear, so when I cleared first two bosses with them I seemed competent enough to them. However when I messed up on the mechanics at matt once, they chose to at least give me a chance by kicking me instantly. Also, I can say that I personally haven’t joined a single LI group, doesn’t make this true for the majority of player base. I appreciate that u are open minded but let’s face it majority of ppl that post for pugs on the lfg are not, as most of them would much rather half-explain a simple mechanic and then silent kick u afterwards because they wanna save a few min, rather than giving me a shot even when I did show I was mostly competent (if not getting downed at sab and clearing big bombs on time is not a measure of this, then I dunno what is).

Aren’t you just looking for someone to agree with your thought at this point?? Since there are already so much reply explaining to you the issue?
Another thing is that you pointed out that you do get annoyed at people that don’t even know simple mechanics like standing in green circle in VG. Then what about them when u don’t even know the simple green bomb mechanics at SAB. So if you are the leader and has killed the boss numerous times would you likely want to kick that player?
Just some stuff to think about.

Whoops need to edit some spelling error LOL

nagr.1593:

am I expected to suffer through 8 wipes on a boss before we get the kill?

Yes, that is called learning.

/end thread

nagr.1593:

or am I expected to suffer through 8 wipes on a boss before we get the kill?

Only 8

Oh the hue manatee…..

It’s almost like those people whose time you’re wasting have probably wiped 100x more than that, only to limit the scope of people they invite so they can have their time be managed more appropriately.

Fatalyz.7168:

nagr.1593:

am I expected to suffer through 8 wipes on a boss before we get the kill?

Yes, that is called learning.

/end thread

I joined exp group for Xera without technically have ever done it, and we killed boss on the 3rd attempt (the first time I failed my group was when I fell when gliding bc of random platform order that blocked me). pls explain to me how this wastes even more time than joining a training run that has 8 wipes on the same boss. and yes u are free to use Absurdo’s example of wasting group time vs. actual time wasted if so needed.

You are getting these easy kill on the back of experienced player. If you think 8 wipes is too much, you shouldnt be raiding. You got lucky to join raids now that most of the players can carry some new players. But at the begining you would be lucky to get a kill after many more than 8 wipes, and all that players endured that.

nagr.1593:

Fatalyz.7168:

nagr.1593:

am I expected to suffer through 8 wipes on a boss before we get the kill?

Yes, that is called learning.

/end thread

I joined exp group for Xera without technically have ever done it, and we killed boss on the 3rd attempt (the first time I failed my group was when I fell bc of random platform order that blocked me). pls explain to me how this wastes even more time than joining a training run that has 8 wipes on the same boss. and yes u are free to use Absurdo’s example of wasting group time vs. actual time wasted if so needed.

Xera is one of the easier bosses, it is easier to carry someone who is unfamiliar with the mechanics, not to mention that this fight is really only difficult for the tank. For your example alone, there are 9 other people there that should know the mechanics, one person not knowing the mechanics won’t exactly wipe the group. Other bosses, one person not knowing all of the mechanics, can and most likely will wipe the group.

Just going back to your example of Sabetha and the Sapper bombs, you didn’t know what they were for, even though you claimed to be experienced. I would have kicked you there as well, as you obviously were not experienced.

Joining experienced runs, when you are not experienced you are going to run the risk of being kicked. You were complaining about being kicked. I and several others have given you reasons why you were kicked, but you think your time is better than everyone else’s and that you shouldn’t have to spend time learning all of the mechanics of a fight before calling yourself experienced, or dealing with other people learning the fights, when you yourself do not know the fights. You can argue it all you want, you obviously are, but the fact remains that you are upset with getting kicked from experienced runs because you weren’t experienced in the fight (Sabetha, Matthias) because someone wouldn’t take the time to explain it to you, when you won’t take the time to go learn the fight with other people that are learning the fight, because you want the kill at the expense of people who already know the fight. Essentially you want to be carried.

TL:DR – You want to be carried by people that already know the fights, and know all of the mechanics, without knowing all of them yourself.

You are getting carried by experienced players who have learned the fights properly, which usually contains wiping alot of times as they figure out mechanics and so on.
You’re just leeching off of them and the only reason you get kills after the 2nd or 3rd attempt is because they know the fights and carry you