Guild Wars 2

It feels this way because there is no “LFR tool” so most of the time you end up joining a group for open world content and have to convince someone that you’re qualified enough to even attempt the content. A lot of people only want to group with other experienced players with 10+ kills or whatever so the ability to find groups capable of downing the content bottlenecks considerably because experienced raiders only want to group with experienced raiders.

A good solution to this problem would be to add a LFR tool with an additional incentive options for experienced players who group with less experienced players. A bonus chest, magic find percentage, raid currency reward, or even some kind of “mentor” currency. This gives an incentive for players familiar with the raid to incorporate new players and bring them into the raiding culture rather than shut them out.

/discuss

But what do you determine as experienced? Played it once? Twice? Ten times?

Beaten it once? Twice? Ten times?

I think it has less to do with how many kills, and perhaps a better gauge would be an achievement that relates to mastering the mechanics of a fight. For example, beating VG without getting teleported the entire fight or something similar

Actually raids are inaccessible because they are too tough. If your squad is anything less than the absolute best players you are going to hit that 8 minute time limit. Not having a proper team that play together regularly, or even not having every player on voice comms, just makes that much worse.

Raids were not designed for pugs typing into the chat box. They were not designed for the average GW2 player. They were designed for the top few percent.

To make raids more accessible anet need to nurf it.

Protivnik.8907:

A good solution to this problem would be to add a LFR tool with an additional incentive options for experienced players who group with less experienced players. A bonus chest, magic find percentage, raid currency reward, or even some kind of “mentor” currency. This gives an incentive for players familiar with the raid to incorporate new players and bring them into the raiding culture rather than shut them out.

/discuss

Interesting. Firstly because it’s a welcome change of pace from the usual complaint that experienced players should just take inexperienced pugs who they’ve never met, and spend hours teaching them rather than getting someone with experience and finishing the raid in an hour. Providing some kind of incentive is a good way to encourage this. Secondly, it would give people a reason to replay the raid rather than just getting a quick clear early in the week, doing a few more bosses to hit shard cap, then just wait for the next week. With a mentor type system, you could do your raid clear, then get additional rewards if you kill bosses with a group somehow labelled as “inexperienced”. Like maybe 100 shard cap for regular raids, but the ability to earn an extra 50 or something in an inexperienced group.

Determining an inexperienced group is a tricky thing though, and I don’t know how that would work. Maybe if the majority of party has not got the achievement killing the boss being attempted it could be flagged as inexperienced? I don’t even know if that’s something anet is able to implement.

Another idea i thought of is based on the coach feature from Dota 2, where an extra person on the team is basically just a spectator, and can watch and give instruction/advice. Which I imagine would be very handy if they could sit above the vg arena for example like in pvp spectate mode and watch the raid groups movements etc. But again, I don’t know if anet could really implement that, and if so it would be a lot of work, potentially an unreasonable amount.

Protivnik.8907:

It feels this way because there is no “LFR tool” so most of the time you end up joining a group for open world content and have to convince someone that you’re qualified enough to even attempt the content. A lot of people only want to group with other experienced players with 10+ kills or whatever so the ability to find groups capable of downing the content bottlenecks considerably because experienced raiders only want to group with experienced raiders.

A good solution to this problem would be to add a LFR tool with an additional incentive options for experienced players who group with less experienced players. A bonus chest, magic find percentage, raid currency reward, or even some kind of “mentor” currency. This gives an incentive for players familiar with the raid to incorporate new players and bring them into the raiding culture rather than shut them out.

/discuss

This is actually a really good idea. Not sure if they are willing to devote resources to implement it though. Between this idea and the implementation of some performance tools to ensure that groups don’t fail endlessly due to having no clue on who isn’t keeping up…this could open raids up without them nerfing the content.

FFXIV did this. During leveling dungeons they added extra XP if you brought someone new and at endgame it would give you extra tokens. New ppl were always welcome for the most part.

To make this work all they’d need to do is make shards earnable beyond the cap if you bring someone new with you. I quite like this idea personally.

Archeage has a similar system. There is a daily quests for dungeons: one for the mentor and one for mentee, both earn rewards – everyone happy.

/signed

WARNING Old man rant incoming

The idea of rewarding people who help is a good one, I suppose it could be incorporated into the mentor system (instead of the apple just being the poor man’s commander tag) and be implemented across the game instead of just raids. Something like having a limited daily/weekly/monthly currency which you can’t use yourself, but can “tip” your mentor with.

In terms of the LFR tool itself, I would be careful what you wish for as it would have to be a lot more sophisticated than what Anet have implemented so far. The closest thing we have currently would be the sPvP queue which will group you with a bunch of randoms regardless of build and using your sPvP lvl to match for skill. Works fine there as the opposing team is also subject to the same process and it balances out. However in a tightly tuned PVE encounter with no agreed system of measuring experience, play style or personalities, this is arguably worse than current practice. Imagine a system automatically grouping up 8 dps, 2 tanks and no healer. Or allocate some players who expect the rest of the group to carry them. Or the experienced players have no interest or patience for teaching. A LFR systems needs to take into account all of those otherwise it would be no better than advertising on LFG.

Finally regarding the tuning of raids. I think Anet has made a conscious decision regarding this. In order to make raids pug-able, they would have to detune it to the level of fractals or dungeons… if this was their intention they should have just given us more fractals and dungeons. The inherent problem is the pug vs the regulars. A group of strangers with no social bonds with each other is inherently more unstable than a group of friends/acquaintances. It just takes 1 person in a bad mood and all hell breaks loose. The anonymity of the internet means there is no consequences to being a kitten and no recourse for making amends. The player then goes into the next pug expecting the same and with a chip on his shoulder. A very deleterious cycle. Compare this to a guild group who raids regularly… they are all friends and they know crossing the line does have social consequences, but also you can make up and laugh about it later down the track. He/she knows friends depend on him/her, so he/she work harder to improve themselves. The friends see the improvement, make a compliment which is motivation for more improvement. The friends then see themselves falling behind, and in the competitive spirit they up their own game. This is a virtuous cycle. I know this is an idealized scenario, but something to this effect will happen in a group who spends enough time together, which is something a pug can never achieve.

As old vanilla WoW raider, a part of me feels people who seriously want to do raids should just abandon pugs and find a group to like-minded players to bond, laugh and lay some smackdown with. (FYI, I don’t raid in HoT because this old raider no longer has the time nor attention span. I will not disrespect the 9 others, pug or otherwise, by not bringing my A-game.)

Serious.6940:

Actually raids are inaccessible because they are too tough. If your squad is anything less than the absolute best players you are going to hit that 8 minute time limit. Not having a proper team that play together regularly, or even not having every player on voice comms, just makes that much worse.

Raids were not designed for pugs typing into the chat box. They were not designed for the average GW2 player. They were designed for the top few percent.

To make raids more accessible anet need to nurf it.

Sorry, but raids are not that exclusively difficult. They are, without doubt, far harder than any PvE content in the game at the moment. But you do not need “the best players” to be able to clear it. You need players who know their classes well, and how the game’s combat mechanics work.

You don’t even need voice comms either. I’ve been in a “silent” VG group that got the kill fairly quickly.

I like the idea.

Serious.6940:

Actually raids are inaccessible because they are too tough. If your squad is anything less than the absolute best players you are going to hit that 8 minute time limit. Not having a proper team that play together regularly, or even not having every player on voice comms, just makes that much worse.

Raids were not designed for pugs typing into the chat box. They were not designed for the average GW2 player. They were designed for the top few percent.

To make raids more accessible anet need to nurf it.

Well I saw plenty of pugs succeed at the raid. Of course raid will never be and shouldn’t accessible to all players. But it should remove as much obstacle as possible to form a group so that player that failed at doing the raid is because they are not good enough, not because they don’t have a guild doing raid or 9 other friends doing raid.

Thaddeus.4891:

Serious.6940:

Actually raids are inaccessible because they are too tough. If your squad is anything less than the absolute best players you are going to hit that 8 minute time limit. Not having a proper team that play together regularly, or even not having every player on voice comms, just makes that much worse.

Raids were not designed for pugs typing into the chat box. They were not designed for the average GW2 player. They were designed for the top few percent.

To make raids more accessible anet need to nurf it.

Well I saw plenty of pugs succeed at the raid. Of course raid will never be and shouldn’t accessible to all players. But it should remove as much obstacle as possible to form a group so that player that failed at doing the raid is because they are not good enough, not because they don’t have a guild doing raid or 9 other friends doing raid.

This is exactly my point I was trying to make on numerous occasions.

However I would also add easy rewardless mode for story and exploration.

They aren’t going to add a LFR tool. They will very likely revamp the LFG tool and make it so that you can list raid squads and make it so that there’s an LFG section for raids. I wouldn’t expect this before the second raid patch later in Q1, but since changing the LFG is a high-risk/high-effort development item it could land even later.

Rising Dusk.2408:

but since changing the LFG is a high-risk/high-effort development item it could land even later.

Not the first time you said that and I still don’t get it. How adding 2 tab is a high-rik/high-effort development???

Hell even if that’s too much for them they could renamed some of the useless LFG tab that already exist. Yes functionality between Squad and LFG is another beast and that will probably take longer. But new tabs so that Open World LFG isn’t a mess anymore?? I can’t believe this would take more than a couples of hours for 1 developer.

Do they really need to make us wait for a crucial and easy change just because they want to add complex optional stuff?? Everybody want it, the open world tab is just a bloody mess. Inexcusable.

Serious.6940:

Actually raids are inaccessible because they are too tough. If your squad is anything less than the absolute best players you are going to hit that 8 minute time limit. Not having a proper team that play together regularly, or even not having every player on voice comms, just makes that much worse.

Raids were not designed for pugs typing into the chat box. They were not designed for the average GW2 player. They were designed for the top few percent.

To make raids more accessible anet need to nurf it.

Had a spare hour last night and decided to do a quick VG kill. My regular group couldn’t form so I posted on LFG. Killed VG and did the events leading up to Gorsy with only 4 deaths of which only 2 were legitimate (the other 2 were dc’s/Leroy Jenkins). Only about 5-6 in the group were from a guild; the other 4-5 were pulled from LFG (myself included).

On Friday, I PUG’d a teaching group where half the team had 0 hours in raid time. Even with brand new noobs to the instance we got to the final phase within the hour.

So, to your claim that Raids are only for the few top percent? I would have to call that a stretch. Though I will agree the average player may not be up to the call since it requires just a tad bit more of self-motivation and commitment than what most are willing to put in.

Thaddeus.4891:

Rising Dusk.2408:

but since changing the LFG is a high-risk/high-effort development item it could land even later.

Not the first time you said that and I still don’t get it. How adding 2 tab is a high-rik/high-effort development???

Hell even if that’s too much for them they could renamed some of the useless LFG tab that already exist. Yes functionality between Squad and LFG is another beast and that will probably take longer. But new tabs so that Open World LFG isn’t a mess anymore?? I can’t believe this would take more than a couples of hours for 1 developer.

Do they really need to make us wait for a crucial and easy change just because they want to add complex optional stuff?? Everybody want it, the open world tab is just a bloody mess. Inexcusable.

+1

We’re already used to breaking off from squad to recruit. Not ideal, but it works I guess. But yeah, even an extra tab or two to clean up the open world tab would be phenomenal especially during weekends where posts are going up and down like crazy with all the interweaving events.

Overhaul the LFG to be squad compatible? I think the general consensus is that part can wait. It would be great to have, but we understand that taking a tool built for 5 man and making it 10-100 man compatible is not exactly straightforward.

Thaddeus.4891:

Not the first time you said that and I still don’t get it. How adding 2 tab is a high-rik/high-effort development???

It isn’t, but adding 2 tabs is not the full solution. People still have to leave raid squads to advertise on the LFG. The proper solution is to obviously allow raid squads to be listed on the LFG, which is base functionality not currently present that they want to add.

I can’t speak for ANet as to why they’ve chosen not to add the tabs in the interim, though, but as usual I’d expect it to get lumped into other patches and maybe they’re just saving it to make a later patch bigger. I don’t have insight into that particular part of their development cycle.

Rising Dusk.2408:

It isn’t, but adding 2 tabs is not the full solution. People still have to leave raid squads to advertise on the LFG. The proper solution is to obviously allow raid squads to be listed on the LFG, which is base functionality not currently present that they want to add..

We all know that only 2 tabs isn’t the full solution. But freakly that’s the biggest problem and I would add the only problem. See the squad working with the LFG is only a quality of life issue. At least for me. But the fact that there is 50 lfg in Open World tab at peak hours is just a complete mess and is a big problem for everybody. Seriously they could never add the function of squad using the LFG and the majority of players would still be happy if there was a Raid and HoT map tab.

Rising Dusk.2408:

I can’t speak for ANet as to why they’ve chosen not to add the tabs in the interim, though, but as usual I’d expect it to get lumped into other patches and maybe they’re just saving it to make a later patch bigger. I don’t have insight into that particular part of their development cycle.

That’s a big problem. Could you imagine if they didn’t gave us the fractal patch to fix armour scaling and drop rate? We don’t know how much time it will take them to allow squad to work with the LFG, but I remember a dev saying that it would be hard to do. How much time they will work on that? And what if after 2-3 months they figure out that oups it doesn’t work as they intended and need to start from zero or scrap the idea altogether?

Maybe they decided that, but I found that to be one stupid decision if you ask me and I’m gonna complain about that.

Lots of interesting points here. I do think they could use the achievements system to determine who’s experienced and who’s not.

The major issue i’ve found is actually getting into a Raid. Not the actual Raid itself. As someone without a guild group, i spent 30-45 mins “waiting to have Fun” as Anet says. Thats on a good day.

onevstheworld.2419:

*Something like having a limited daily/weekly/monthly currency which you can’t use yourself, but can “tip” your mentor with.

Giving option to tip or not is a bad idea i think, it leaves an option to be a jerk. As i said Archeage has this type of daily quests, where both earn rewards – and very good ones too.

I’m largely opposed to this idea, not because the idea isn’t sound but I don’t trust Anet to implement something like this and have it not be extremely exploitable. It’s really hard to gauge if someone is “experienced” or not in some algorithmic way.

Just look at the most recent PVP league system. Hundreds of people were abusing the system by queuing with “new players” so they would get into lower quality matches and be able to easily win. It was a huge pain point for the community. I’ve no doubt something like that would arise from a system like this.

Mostly we need LFG to be fixed. Squads need to be listable and the tabs need to be sorted out. After that we’ll see what kind of “lfg meta” develops.

EDIT: I wanted to add that raids are not supposed to be highly accessible content. Carrying a player is often pretty hard so the rewards for taking a “new” player would have to be high to encourage this behavior.