Guild Wars 2

So the players that want to start raiding have a good couple of easy or entry level bosses that they can do. If they are after the legendary armor they can get it with the bosses from the first four wings, which aren’t that hard. Currently the devs made the raids so that they can be completed by a good amount of people so that legendary armor isn’t that “exclusive”. Great. So if we exclude these players that only want the legendary armor, they can obtain it by doing the first 4 wings. There is no need for them to go any further as raids don’t mean anything else to them except “legendary armor”. What’s left? The players that the raids should have been actually made for. The hardcore elitists that looked for some challenge in the game. The skill level of top players is rising and so should the difficulty of raids. The level for the challenge motes in W4 would make a nice normal mode in future raids, and on top of that add extra layers of diffculty for unique titles, rewards, skins.

Being honest I like the current model. Bosses like Xera, Matthias, Deimos, and Sabetha are among my favorites because they require more strict coordination than the others, but I like having easier bosses with diverse mechanics, and then CMs for harder encounters when you want to push yourself. If very cool and prestigious rewards continue to be tied to CMs, much like Demon’s Demise, then they’ll still be great entries to the game going forward.

The only thing I wish they’d do is make the raid CMs have repeatable rewards like fractal CM100 so that more groups would run it regularly. It’s hard to convince my statics to run CMs all over again when they don’t offer anything special.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Being honest I like the current model. Bosses like Xera, Matthias, Deimos, and Sabetha are among my favorites because they require more strict coordination than the others, but I like having easier bosses with diverse mechanics, and then CMs for harder encounters when you want to push yourself. If very cool and prestigious rewards continue to be tied to CMs, much like Demon’s Demise, then they’ll still be great entries to the game going forward.

The only thing I wish they’d do is make the raid CMs have repeatable rewards like fractal CM100 so that more groups would run it regularly. It’s hard to convince my statics to run CMs all over again when they don’t offer anything special.

I like the current model too. But CM being repeatable would just segment raids, its the same that adding an easy mode, it does more harm then good. I think they should keep the one mode only, with CM being a one time thing.

If they keep it only at one mode there should be a step up in dificulty. Raids were supposed to be hard and every wing after w1 was easier (excluding matt). When something is easier than something you have done previously then it considered “not challenging”.

Raid are supposed to be the hardest content consistently in each wing release not “the hardest first wing and then downhill”. Don’t forget no one gets worse at the game only better therefor an up in dificulty is required esp ince we rn have a plethora of entry lvl encounters. It not the hardest content when some of the encounters are as hard as 100c.

In case there are challenge mode from here on ot there should also be an up in dificulty because a challenge mode challenges you and if a cm is easier than the previous then its no longer a challenge. I’d also like them to go back on w1-3 and make cm’s for the boses that dont have one for consistencys sake. But ofc there are so much in terms of rescources to go by.

There is ofc the arguement of too much challenge and burn outs on guilds but with a steady pace between “harder” and “on par” dificulty this shouldn’t be a problem.

Making raids easier tho with each release now that legendary armor is out of the way just kittenes off the ppl that actually stick around for that promise of challenge. If everything after the first 2 wings are easier then whats keeping them on playing the game or making videos with clears and generally advertising the game?

Raids need to be as hard as they can make them – every single fight. If they are meant to be the ultimate challenge, then they need to be designed as such.

However, that is pretty much impossible with the current model in this particular game because it would mean significantly fewer people in the content and a greater rift in the community than we see now.

I know some people hate the idea, but imo, the only way to include the absolute hardest possible content, while still keeping the game mode alive and healthy, is through a tiered difficulty model – one that takes both accessibility and true challenge into account.

Without it, you end up with what we have now – content that is too watered down for some and too restrictive for others. I would much rather they design the fights to melt faces and then, afterwards, look at implementing story or accessibility motes or modes for those looking to train or just experience the content at a lower difficulty level.

Blaeys.3102:

Raids need to be as hard as they can make them – every single fight. If they are meant to be the ultimate challenge, then they need to be designed as such.

However, that is pretty much impossible with the current model in this particular game because it would mean significantly fewer people in the content and a greater rift in the community than we see now.

I know some people hate the idea, but imo, the only way to include the absolute hardest possible content, while still keeping the game mode alive and healthy, is through a tiered difficulty model – one that takes both accessibility and true challenge into account.

Without it, you end up with what we have now – content that is too watered down for some and too restrictive for others. I would much rather they design the fights to melt faces and then, afterwards, look at implementing story or accessibility motes or modes for those looking to train or just experience the content at a lower difficulty level.

But thing i we already have a pseudo tiered style system because raid wing 3-4 and partially 2 are easier with w4 being just faceroll even. That with the fact that ppl making group specifically to help ppl i enough. Anything easier will not help anyone g trasnition smoothely in the actual raiding.

zealex.9410:

Blaeys.3102:

Raids need to be as hard as they can make them – every single fight. If they are meant to be the ultimate challenge, then they need to be designed as such.

However, that is pretty much impossible with the current model in this particular game because it would mean significantly fewer people in the content and a greater rift in the community than we see now.

I know some people hate the idea, but imo, the only way to include the absolute hardest possible content, while still keeping the game mode alive and healthy, is through a tiered difficulty model – one that takes both accessibility and true challenge into account.

Without it, you end up with what we have now – content that is too watered down for some and too restrictive for others. I would much rather they design the fights to melt faces and then, afterwards, look at implementing story or accessibility motes or modes for those looking to train or just experience the content at a lower difficulty level.

But thing i we already have a pseudo tiered style system because raid wing 3-4 and partially 2 are easier with w4 being just faceroll even. That with the fact that ppl making group specifically to help ppl i enough. Anything easier will not help anyone g trasnition smoothely in the actual raiding.

Im glad you used the qualifier “pseudo.” Yes, some fights are easier than others, but – as it pertains to experiencing the story or wing, that actually makes things even more frustrating for more casual players. It means they experience 2/3 or 1/2 of the story and then get cut off.

Transitioning into raiding isnt the heart of this issue. Anyone wanting to experience top difficulty raiding can do so pretty easily now. It is more about opening the experience and fun of the content/story (which I admit is sparce)/etc to those players looking for it.

That level of accessibility will always need to be addressed in some way. With the last wing, their approach was to water down a few fights to the point where they provide no challenge to harder core players yet still prohibit the more casual players from participating. They tried to use single mode encounters to address multiple playstyles and commitment levels – and to no one’s surprise, they failed to offer the experience either side was looking for.

The only way they are going to overcome that particular obstacle is with tiered difficulty. Hopefully they are seeing that now.

Blaeys.3102:

zealex.9410:

Blaeys.3102:

Raids need to be as hard as they can make them – every single fight. If they are meant to be the ultimate challenge, then they need to be designed as such.

However, that is pretty much impossible with the current model in this particular game because it would mean significantly fewer people in the content and a greater rift in the community than we see now.

I know some people hate the idea, but imo, the only way to include the absolute hardest possible content, while still keeping the game mode alive and healthy, is through a tiered difficulty model – one that takes both accessibility and true challenge into account.

Without it, you end up with what we have now – content that is too watered down for some and too restrictive for others. I would much rather they design the fights to melt faces and then, afterwards, look at implementing story or accessibility motes or modes for those looking to train or just experience the content at a lower difficulty level.

But thing i we already have a pseudo tiered style system because raid wing 3-4 and partially 2 are easier with w4 being just faceroll even. That with the fact that ppl making group specifically to help ppl i enough. Anything easier will not help anyone g trasnition smoothely in the actual raiding.

Im glad you used the qualifier “pseudo.” Yes, some fights are easier than others, but – as it pertains to experiencing the story or wing, that actually makes things even more frustrating for more casual players. It means they experience 2/3 or 1/2 of the story and then get cut off.

Transitioning into raiding isnt the heart of this issue. Anyone wanting to experience top difficulty raiding can do so pretty easily now. It is more about opening the experience and fun of the content/story (which I admit is sparce)/etc to those players looking for it.

That level of accessibility will always need to be addressed in some way. With the last wing, their approach was to water down a few fights to the point where they provide no challenge to harder core players yet still prohibit the more casual players from participating. They tried to use single mode encounters to address multiple playstyles and commitment levels – and to no one’s surprise, they failed to offer the experience either side was looking for.

The only way they are going to overcome that particular obstacle is with tiered difficulty. Hopefully they are seeing that now.

I like that you used the “exeprience the story” arguement because a 1 man story mode with 1 time rewards shoudl do the trick on that. Im a suporter of that since it make sense to have and it will remove creative blocks on the raid designer so we might see actual story characters in raids against story relevant bosses (aka elder dragons).

Experience the wing mean exactly that experience whats there and fr that you need to play it as it is now anything diff no longer means experience the wing. Unless you meant story i which case scroll up.

zealex.9410:

Blaeys.3102:

zealex.9410:

Blaeys.3102:

Raids need to be as hard as they can make them – every single fight. If they are meant to be the ultimate challenge, then they need to be designed as such.

However, that is pretty much impossible with the current model in this particular game because it would mean significantly fewer people in the content and a greater rift in the community than we see now.

I know some people hate the idea, but imo, the only way to include the absolute hardest possible content, while still keeping the game mode alive and healthy, is through a tiered difficulty model – one that takes both accessibility and true challenge into account.

Without it, you end up with what we have now – content that is too watered down for some and too restrictive for others. I would much rather they design the fights to melt faces and then, afterwards, look at implementing story or accessibility motes or modes for those looking to train or just experience the content at a lower difficulty level.

But thing i we already have a pseudo tiered style system because raid wing 3-4 and partially 2 are easier with w4 being just faceroll even. That with the fact that ppl making group specifically to help ppl i enough. Anything easier will not help anyone g trasnition smoothely in the actual raiding.

Im glad you used the qualifier “pseudo.” Yes, some fights are easier than others, but – as it pertains to experiencing the story or wing, that actually makes things even more frustrating for more casual players. It means they experience 2/3 or 1/2 of the story and then get cut off.

Transitioning into raiding isnt the heart of this issue. Anyone wanting to experience top difficulty raiding can do so pretty easily now. It is more about opening the experience and fun of the content/story (which I admit is sparce)/etc to those players looking for it.

That level of accessibility will always need to be addressed in some way. With the last wing, their approach was to water down a few fights to the point where they provide no challenge to harder core players yet still prohibit the more casual players from participating. They tried to use single mode encounters to address multiple playstyles and commitment levels – and to no one’s surprise, they failed to offer the experience either side was looking for.

The only way they are going to overcome that particular obstacle is with tiered difficulty. Hopefully they are seeing that now.

I like that you used the “exeprience the story” arguement because a 1 man story mode with 1 time rewards shoudl do the trick on that. Im a suporter of that since it make sense to have and it will remove creative blocks on the raid designer so we might see actual story characters in raids against story relevant bosses (aka elder dragons).

Experience the wing mean exactly that experience whats there and fr that you need to play it as it is now anything diff no longer means experience the wing. Unless you meant story i which case scroll up.

It isn’t about absolutes. Of course you can still get a compelling and fun experience from an encounter at lower difficulties. I think you’re being a little too restrictive in your definition of “experience.” It just has to be done intelligently.

I would be all for a 1-5 player instance mirroring the raids along the lines you discuss above. It would alleviate a lot of my concerns. Not sure it would need to be a “one and done” type thing however, but then again, I’m not a fan of that anywhere in the game.

zealex.9410:

If they keep it only at one mode there should be a step up in dificulty. Raids were supposed to be hard and every wing after w1 was easier (excluding matt). When something is easier than something you have done previously then it considered “not challenging”.

It can be tough to objectively analyze the difficulty at this stage, so I’m not surprised some hold this opinion. W1 is actually super ‘easy’, the only reason it seemed hard at first is because players weren’t used to the level of coordination that raids demanded. The raiding playerbase has gotten significantly better at the game since then, so much so that even tougher bosses that would’ve demolished teams in the past are seen as “easier”. Crystal Reid from the ANet raids dev has even commented on this before on livestream.

I agree, harder raids would be nice. They are getting stale and boring fast because you have them on “farm mode” within a week of practice. In which other game are raids on farm mode this fast?
W4 cms should be baseline difficulty for future raids with new cms on top.

Oh is that why it is still so hard to find a group to raid, why I am still seeing comments like “if you haven’t done Vale guardian I’m out”, “there isn’t enough dps” when gors didn’t even have the chance to worldeater, why lfgs can last a few hours in the lfg without anyone ever finding a group?

Roxanne.6140:

Oh is that why it is still so hard to find a group to raid, why I am still seeing comments like “if you haven’t done Vale guardian I’m out”, “there isn’t enough dps” when gors didn’t even have the chance to worldeater, why lfgs can last a few hours in the lfg without anyone ever finding a group?

LFGs last for hours because most raidleaders put up their own lfm and have people join on their raid and then decide who they keep.

Why would I as raid lead (as example not that I always run lead) bother looking through the lfgs when I can put in my own lfm with what I need and have people come to me? If you are looking as a solo person for a raid and expect people to handpick your lfg and invite you, you must either play a very desired role which right at this moment is in short supply(chronotank or druid heal/kiter) or a very inflated ego. One of those 2 will not get you invited.

Just to be clear, if you are dps number 5,673,921 with your l33t 300 LI hoping to get picked up out of the lfg? Keep waiting, I just had 3 other dps with 301 LI message me about a spot.

On topic, raids are fine. Let’s hope the new elite specialisations actually are sidegrades because even a slight amount of powercreep could destabilize the current ecosystem of easy and medium fights with nicht challenge mode versions.

Cyninja.2954:

Roxanne.6140:

Oh is that why it is still so hard to find a group to raid, why I am still seeing comments like “if you haven’t done Vale guardian I’m out”, “there isn’t enough dps” when gors didn’t even have the chance to worldeater, why lfgs can last a few hours in the lfg without anyone ever finding a group?

LFGs last for hours because most raidleaders put up their own lfm and have people join on their raid and then decide who they keep.

Why would I as raid lead (as example not that I always run lead) bother looking through the lfgs when I can put in my own lfm with what I need and have people come to me? If you are looking as a solo person for a raid and expect people to handpick your lfg and invite you, you must either play a very desired role which right at this moment is in short supply(chronotank or druid heal/kiter) or a very inflated ego. One of those 2 will not get you invited.

Just to be clear, if you are dps number 5,673,921 with your l33t 300 LI hoping to get picked up out of the lfg? Keep waiting, I just had 3 other dps with 301 LI message me about a spot.

On topic, raids are fine. Let’s hope the new elite specialisations actually are sidegrades because even a slight amount of powercreep could destabilize the current ecosystem of easy and medium fights with nicht challenge mode versions.

Precisely, thanks for the illustration =)

Here you have it guys. Need 300+++ Li to do wing 1

Roxanne.6140:

Here you have it guys. Need 300+++ Li to do wing 1

Exaggeration is a stylistic device in case that you missed it out in school.

The quintessence is the important part here: Be pro-active.

Waiting to be picked up won’t get you even near to success. Hasn’t been in this game during dungeon peak time nor now after introduction of raids – or in any other mmo.

And yeah, there are enough groups with lesser requirements, especially after Monday and Tuesday when experienced people & static groups want to get their full clear fast without taking care of deadweights/risk of wiping over and over again resulting in a big loss of playtime.

Only thing that would be nice is the actual progression, as in W1 is entry and in order to do W2 you need to have cleared 1, and so on.
Also, its almost to the point now where why do raids at all? You don’t get “better” gear unless you are on the legendary journey. I do kinda miss where with each raid (wing) you needed drops from those Bosses in order to improve your toon to step up your game and be ready to progress on to the next wing. I get that I am basically talking WOW raids here so that really isn’t an option but I tend to agree that making each new raid/wing actually harder would be good and perhaps having something of better use drop…weapons maybe, I dunno? It just kinda sucks that I have drops from the bosses sitting in my bank as I don’t need them, no upgrade so to speak. But as someone mentioned maybe (hopefully) the new elites or whatever will bring something different and not break what is current.

Vinceman.4572:

Roxanne.6140:

Here you have it guys. Need 300+++ Li to do wing 1

Exaggeration is a stylistic device in case that you missed it out in school.

The quintessence is the important part here: Be pro-active.

Waiting to be picked up won’t get you even near to success. Hasn’t been in this game during dungeon peak time nor now after introduction of raids – or in any other mmo.

And yeah, there are enough groups with lesser requirements, especially after Monday and Tuesday when experienced people & static groups want to get their full clear fast without taking care of deadweights/risk of wiping over and over again resulting in a big loss of playtime.

You’ll be just as successful as waiting for a job, romance, etc. Be proactive, it’s a essential life skill

ButterPeanut.9746:

You’ll be just as successful as waiting for a job, romance, etc. Be proactive, it’s a essential life skill

Shhhh…don’t tell them. Some people could be enlightened by accident.

Joxer.6024:

Only thing that would be nice is the actual progression, as in W1 is entry and in order to do W2 you need to have cleared 1, and so on.

I tend to disagree. With vertical gear progression, that might make sense (though it would probably be redundant), but not in GW2. There’s no reason to lock wings in a certain order.

With regard to difficulty, in my experience most raid bosses/instances go into farm mode shortly after you’ve first cleared them. It’s just a difference whether it takes good raiders two days or two months to kill a boss for the first time. GW2 feels (I’ve come too late to the party for real progress) too close to the two days, so no surprise it’s getting stale.

Cyninja.2954:

On topic, raids are fine. Let’s hope the new elite specialisations actually are sidegrades because even a slight amount of powercreep could destabilize the current ecosystem of easy and medium fights with nicht challenge mode versions.

I will be quite surprised if they will not do it. Power creep with new addons is common practice for MMO, you cannot expect that old content designed for old mechanics will stay relevant with new ones.

Rednik.3809:

Cyninja.2954:

On topic, raids are fine. Let’s hope the new elite specialisations actually are sidegrades because even a slight amount of powercreep could destabilize the current ecosystem of easy and medium fights with nicht challenge mode versions.

I will be quite surprised if they will not do it. Power creep with new addons is common practice for MMO, you cannot expect that old content designed for old mechanics will stay relevant with new ones.

True except that the entire gamedesign of GW2 is based around no significant powercreep.

We’ve seen this in:

- the rebalance of downscaling
- the very low powercreep over 5 years (compared to traditional MMOs)
- the lack of increase in gear stats (with the one time eception of ascended addition)

The basic idea always was that elite specialisations are supposed to be sidegrades to each other. I guess we will have to wait and see how well arenanet keeps to this idea.

Cyninja.2954:

True except that the entire gamedesign of GW2 is based around no significant powercreep.

Basic one. Expansion brought pretty huge powercreep and kicked almost all vanilla specs out of meta.

I’m sure the developers have detailed metrics which they can use to evaluate how the playerbase as a whole is responding to the current encounters. I think the most important thing will be getting reliable feedback from a spectrum of players, all at different skill levels. Properly balanced, encounters can be fun for both newer and veteran players (VG is a perfect example in my opinion). Issues start to arise when high DPS makes fights extremely easy (Such as Cairn and Mursaat overseer which are both < 2 minute fights). The difference between high and low DPS is likely only getting bigger, so I feel CM’s are a fantastic method of balancing fights around both extremes.

Personally, I’d love to see more encounters balanced around the difficulty of Matthias, Sabetha, Xera and Deimos but with repeatable CM’s which add mechanical difficulty and balance around a higher base DPS. Just a small incentive like an extra roll on the loot table each week would hopefully encourage more players to go for the CM’s.

Rednik.3809:

Cyninja.2954:

True except that the entire gamedesign of GW2 is based around no significant powercreep.

Basic one. Expansion brought pretty huge powercreep and kicked almost all vanilla specs out of meta.

Again true and one of the main reasons I have my doubts that a pure sidegrade model towards elite specs will be upheld. Since the release of HoT though there has been a lot of balance changes and at least from a pve perspective, a lot of classes were balanced to be closer to each other performance wise.

That being said, HoT was the first elite specialisation and arenanets first attempt at expanding the class system. If elite specialisation are ment to be sidegrades to each other, the powercreep this time around should be less (ideally close to nill).

Cyninja.2954:

Rednik.3809:

Cyninja.2954:

True except that the entire gamedesign of GW2 is based around no significant powercreep.

Basic one. Expansion brought pretty huge powercreep and kicked almost all vanilla specs out of meta.

Again true and one of the main reasons I have my doubts that a pure sidegrade model towards elite specs will be upheld. Since the release of HoT though there has been a lot of balance changes and at least from a pve perspective, a lot of classes were balanced to be closer to each other performance wise.

That being said, HoT was the first elite specialisation and arenanets first attempt at expanding the class system. If elite specialisation are ment to be sidegrades to each other, the powercreep this time around should be less (ideally close to nill).

Yes but they were suposed to be side grades to vanilla specs aswell as the poster you replied to pointed out they were not so, its all up in the air if the new ones will be side grades or more powerful as of this moment.

CptAurellian.9537:

Joxer.6024:

Only thing that would be nice is the actual progression, as in W1 is entry and in order to do W2 you need to have cleared 1, and so on.

I tend to disagree. With vertical gear progression, that might make sense (though it would probably be redundant), but not in GW2. There’s no reason to lock wings in a certain order.

With regard to difficulty, in my experience most raid bosses/instances go into farm mode shortly after you’ve first cleared them. It’s just a difference whether it takes good raiders two days or two months to kill a boss for the first time. GW2 feels (I’ve come too late to the party for real progress) too close to the two days, so no surprise it’s getting stale.

Wings dont take 2 days to clear on release not even w1 took 2 days. W4 took like 4-5 hours.

Linken.6345:

Cyninja.2954:

Rednik.3809:

Cyninja.2954:

True except that the entire gamedesign of GW2 is based around no significant powercreep.

Basic one. Expansion brought pretty huge powercreep and kicked almost all vanilla specs out of meta.

Again true and one of the main reasons I have my doubts that a pure sidegrade model towards elite specs will be upheld. Since the release of HoT though there has been a lot of balance changes and at least from a pve perspective, a lot of classes were balanced to be closer to each other performance wise.

That being said, HoT was the first elite specialisation and arenanets first attempt at expanding the class system. If elite specialisation are ment to be sidegrades to each other, the powercreep this time around should be less (ideally close to nill).

Yes but they were suposed to be side grades to vanilla specs aswell as the poster you replied to pointed out they were not so, its all up in the air if the new ones will be side grades or more powerful as of this moment.

Well yeah but they also need to sell a product. Now im not argueing that it couldnt have been handled better but still why buy the expac when im not getting anything better. Being sidegrade to current elite specs is the middle ground since you are getting something good but not as good to break pvp or wvw even further. In which places i do believe the elite specs should be berfed harder.