Guild Wars 2

“Imagine how much more you’d be contributing on a good class.”

No the ranger is fine in CoE if it is played right. I know there are plenty of places where the ranger isn’t fine but it can be ok there. Don’t make blanket assumptions.

Stooperdale.3560:

“Imagine how much more you’d be contributing on a good class.”

No the ranger is fine in CoE if it is played right. I know there are plenty of places where the ranger isn’t fine but it can be ok there. Don’t make blanket assumptions.

-_-

‘played right’ Not the first and probably not the last time I hear that excuse for rangers lol.

When ‘played right’ as you say, you become acceptable but still subpar. The class has limitations that you cant just ‘play’ around. Doesn’t matter how many times you mash your attacks and utilities or in what orders or combos, you wont match the Dps or support of another class. All you can do is play the class as well as possible so that you aren’t a waste of a party slot.

Am I the only person here that remembers the “ps” in dps?…

Oh great, now I have to start reading the warrior balance changes to see if they nerfed my ranger again.

Funniest thread I’ve read in a while.
10/10

Stooperdale.3560:

“Imagine how much more you’d be contributing on a good class.”

No the ranger is fine in CoE if it is played right. I know there are plenty of places where the ranger isn’t fine but it can be ok there. Don’t make blanket assumptions.

No it’s not. Stop being blind and look at the images and look at TheMaskedParadigm’s 4 ranger 1 warrior banner run of CoF, your damage is abysmal.

“Doesn’t matter how many times you mash your attacks and utilities or in what orders or combos, you wont match the Dps or support of another class. "

Again you’re wrong and you’re basing it on videos and heresay rather than what you’ve done playing the class in that dungeon. I’m not claiming great dps but the support is there as soon as you go into melee. I’m not going into CoE with zerker groups doing speed runs, I’m going in with PUGs who might need carrying through and I can help carry them through and I’d rather do it with my ranger than my other classes.

Stooperdale.3560:

“Doesn’t matter how many times you mash your attacks and utilities or in what orders or combos, you wont match the Dps or support of another class. "

Again you’re wrong and you’re basing it on videos and heresay rather than what you’ve done playing the class in that dungeon. I’m not claiming great dps but the support is there as soon as you go into melee. I’m not going into CoE with zerker groups doing speed runs, I’m going in with PUGs who might need carrying through and I can help carry them through and I’d rather do it with my ranger than my other classes.

Ranger’s support = Healing Spring. You can’t do enough DPS on a Ranger to carry, and you certainly can’t provide enough support either.

Zerker guards can do more DPS and more support than your ranger ever will. I can give blocks, heals, prot, regen, condi removal. If I go for a tank build I can give perma-protection with hammer, might stacks (5s) on crit, remove a condition on use of a shout and with 3k armour I end up sponging all of the aggro while my team can wail on the boss and smash hundred blades over and over again.

You’re not ever going to be carrying pugs, they will be carrying you.

10/10 would read it again. (whole thread)

Please keep it up.

colesy.8490:

Zerker guards can do more DPS and more support than your ranger ever will. I can give blocks, heals, prot, regen, condi removal. If I go for a tank build I can give perma-protection with hammer, might stacks (5s) on crit, remove a condition on use of a shout and with 3k armour I end up sponging all of the aggro while my team can wail on the boss and smash hundred blades over and over again.

You’re not ever going to be carrying pugs, they will be carrying you.

I’ll agree with everything aside from taking aggro, but yeah. Guardians are the best pug-carrying class. Ranger is a good “AFK and range from a safe spot” in pug class.

And there’s also the downside that if you’re on a ranger you’re lumping yourself together with the worst players in the game (period!), just to add insult to injury.

TheMaskedParadigm.3629:

Stooperdale.3560:

“Doesn’t matter how many times you mash your attacks and utilities or in what orders or combos, you wont match the Dps or support of another class. "

Again you’re wrong and you’re basing it on videos and heresay rather than what you’ve done playing the class in that dungeon. I’m not claiming great dps but the support is there as soon as you go into melee. I’m not going into CoE with zerker groups doing speed runs, I’m going in with PUGs who might need carrying through and I can help carry them through and I’d rather do it with my ranger than my other classes.

Ranger’s support = Healing Spring. You can’t do enough DPS on a Ranger to carry, and you certainly can’t provide enough support either.

Rangers have a few more support options than that. Healing Spring is great for a water field and pulsing condition removal (and drakes use a blast finisher as their first skill after pet swap assuming it’s not on cooldown so it’s kind of an on demand blast finisher), warhorn has fury, red moa has fury on a fairly low cooldown, stalker has might, spirit elite can res twice (and heal between reses), I won’t mention other spirits because I’m not deluded enough to think they are useful in the majority of dungeons. Unfortunately for the ranger, the warrior meta means that fury is a guaranteed boon in most premade groups (“For Great Justice!” is outright better than having to equip a horn or bring a moa because a utility slot is a lower opportunity cost than an off hand weapon, especially on a class that often doesn’t want to use either of its main hand weapons). In pugs it’s actually quite common to come across parties with limited access to fury. The reflect on the axe is strong but only because reflection is outright broken in dungeons and once again unfortunately for the ranger the mesmer and guardian reflection skills are much better, are easier to access and either on better weapons or simply utilities.

The closest thing the ranger has to the warrior axe is the sword. Unfortunately it has the root issue which makes it incredibly frustrating to use at the best of times and auto-death at the worst and it also relies on your pet being alive to make use of the might stacks it puts out. The crappy situation with the sword is part of the reason why ranged rangers are so common.

A big part of why rangers are so bad is the design of dungeons. Direct damage overpowers everything else. Rangers have a lot of stun and control skills (lots of AoE snares etc) but snares are pointless, especially given the value of LoS, and stuns are almost worthless because of defiant. Poison might be of value against mobs that heal but once again, direct damage is just so much better.

On top of all this, the pet sucks. It can’t dodge in a game that’s all about dodge or die. Weapon DPS is lower to account for the pet (which is why environmental weapons, which weren’t designed to account for the pet, do more damage than ranger weapons) yet the pet is too often dead.

I started the game with a ranger and that’s how I learned the dungeons, but a guardian was my second class and it wasn’t long before I noticed all dungeon content was substantially easier on my guardian compared to my ranger. I could tank, throw out aegis, heal and buff my party all while doing more DPS than my ranger (completely negating Kholer’s pull seemed incredibly OP at the time, when most parties would wipe repeatedly if you didn’t stop him from pulling them). If I wasn’t in the mood for a terrible AC pug I ran on my guardian for guaranteed success, the class is just that powerful.

The ranger has more support options than you mentioned but yeah, it’s in a pretty pathetic state when it comes to dungeons and it’s been this way since launch. All these issues are covered repeatedly in the ranger forums (and this one) over the last year and things are only getting worse for the class. No-one who’s been around is holding out hope that ArenaNet is going to see this thread and do anything. Robert Hrouda plays a ranger and designs the dungeons so he is familiar with the meta and acutely aware of the ranger’s issues with it. Despite this rangers still see the vast majority of issues they’ve seen since launch. The funny thing is, even if pets were buffed so that two could tank a boss (the stated reason why they refuse to fix pet survivability issues), the meta wouldn’t change because survival isn’t an issue in dungeons, it’s just a DPS race.

Shiren.9532:

Robert Hrouda plays a ranger and designs the dungeons so he is familiar with the meta and acutely aware of the ranger’s issues with it. Despite this rangers still see the vast majority of issues they’ve seen since launch. The funny thing is, even if pets were buffed so that two could tank a boss (the stated reason why they refuse to fix pet survivability issues), the meta wouldn’t change because survival isn’t an issue in dungeons, it’s just a DPS race.

I watched Robert Hrouda live stream his adventure in Southsun cove after the last Living Story patch and watched him click his utility skills with his mouse. I don’t think there is much he is aware of, keybinds being one of them. It’s not possible for me to have hope about Rangers being balanced one day, dungeons being reworked, or anything else like that. I guess this reply is slightly off-topic, but whatever. Rangers are simply inferior, and I really doubt that anything will be done about that at this point. Like you essentially said, a lot of other classes offer the same things in a superior form, and this really just cripples Rangers.

Stooperdale.3560:

“Doesn’t matter how many times you mash your attacks and utilities or in what orders or combos, you wont match the Dps or support of another class. "

Again you’re wrong and you’re basing it on videos and heresay rather than what you’ve done playing the class in that dungeon. I’m not claiming great dps but the support is there as soon as you go into melee. I’m not going into CoE with zerker groups doing speed runs, I’m going in with PUGs who might need carrying through and I can help carry them through and I’d rather do it with my ranger than my other classes.

Actually, I have a ranger, it was my main. It has 700 hours + on it and I invested 200g into gear sets and skins for her. I have taken it into every dungeon many times over. The support is abysmal compared to any other class. You can claim you have support, but I can claim I have money with a dime in my pocket while everyone walks around with million dollar briefcases. Sure you can ‘carry’ a bad team on a ranger, but you will carry them better on another class. And you can forget about speedruns or good teams entirely, because that is where you will be getting carried. Now, logically, if you have such poor support, you should at least be able to make up for it with great dps.. but on ranger, you don’t.

Your contribution as a ranger is a weak damage sponge pet every 45 or 60 seconds in a game where all the hard hitting attacks are AoE. That might prove useful in some situations, maybe.

We also have access to long group fury with the warhorn and red moa. 100% uptime if you have both and have a cdr on either. The moa can also occasionally do a pretty strong aoe heal, if you’re lucky it might even do it where people are actually injured. It can also give 6 stacks of 10s vulnerability to a stationary target (20s cd). I have no idea how people associate an 8s fury on 25s cd as 100% uptime for a party with a warrior. And how many people do you see picking up the banner to give party fury? (I actually got yelled at to leave the banner alone because the warrior thought the party already had fury up, when in reality they were the only one who did, thanks to their personal fury buffs. I’m pretty sure increasing the party’s crit rate by 20% is more valuable than the lost damage from our weaker than normal attacks. In fact, because of this, the ranger is the most suited to being the one to pick up the banner to use its effects.) We also have the +150 precision trait for about 7% extra crit rate for the party.

Of course, when I say the whole party, it only means you and your 4 closest allies. Thanks to the max limit of just about every boon in the game being 5, your pet may not get the boons if there are enough PCs around to take them. I’m not sure if the boon distribution system prioritizes PCs over pets actually.

Now that I think about it, since about 20-30% of our damage is tied to the pet, this makes us the ideal class to have using environmental effects and such, like spike fruits on the svanir in CoE, or the hammer in the cliffside fractal, since we don’t lose all our dps when we grab them. Kind of like how in Super Smash Bros. some characters were simply better with items than others.

Dolan.3071:

Funniest thread I’ve read in a while.
10/10

Indeed.

C’mon Swiftpaw, it’s not like people are coming into this thread making bold claims of meta superiority that needs to be endlessly debated, they just seem to asking to tone down the caricature. It’s got nothing to do with other classes and the comparison thereof, merely fair representation of what Ranger is for better or worse. I don’t think that’s such an outrageous request, really.

I’m all for finding a little self deprecating humor in all of this, I think Eugene is laugh out loud funny. But the difference here is that Eugene is playing up Ranger’s problems in such an over-the-top way everybody’s in on the joke, whereas OP and his chorus either genuinely believe this is output what Rangers can aspire to or are playing halfhearted for humor’s sake so subtly it leaves the third party viewer the impression that this is all par for the course.

In 700 hours of playing can you honestly back OP’s performance with your full faith and confidence? Because that’s kind of the impression I get from your defense of it.

Vox Hollow.2736:

C’mon Swiftpaw, it’s not like people are coming into this thread making bold claims of meta superiority that needs to be endlessly debated, they just seem to asking to tone down the caricature. I don’t think that’s such an outrageous request, really.

I’m all for finding a little self deprecating humor in all of this, I think Eugene is laugh out loud funny. But the difference here is that Eugene is so over-the-top everybody’s in on the joke, whereas OP and his Chorus seem to genuinely believe that this is all par for the course.

In 700 hours of playing can you honestly back those numbers with your full faith and confidence? Because that’s kind of the impression I get from your defense of it.

What numbers >_>

I’m just letting the guy know his class isn’t as up to par as the others atm. He wanted to get srs by going off the deep end about how his ranger is good in coe, and told me I had not played the class. I’m just letting him know I have and why people think it’s subpar. Because it’s jack of all trades master of none. I’m not defending anything or making any bold claims :/

I changed that to OP’s performance, because I realized numbers was too vague.

It’s not even a Jack of all trades, more like a 6 or 7 IMO.

Vox Hollow.2736:

I changed that to OP’s performance, because I realized numbers was too vague.

I was talking to stooperdale about why his ranger isn’t up to par as other classes in coe, as he was arguing that it was good in there, what’s that have to do with OP’s numbers?

More like jack of no trades, master of none.

You don’t get the overall impression Strooper is asking for a more pragmatic down-to-earth perspective on Ranger, the COE example as an attempt to get there aside?

Hmmm, well, I guess I might be reading him wrong.
My apologies.

Vox Hollow.2736:

C’mon Swiftpaw, it’s not like people are coming into this thread making bold claims of meta superiority that needs to be endlessly debated, they just seem to asking to tone down the caricature. It’s got nothing to do with other classes and the comparison thereof, merely fair representation of what Ranger is for better or worse. I don’t think that’s such an outrageous request, really.

I’m all for finding a little self deprecating humor in all of this, I think Eugene is laugh out loud funny. But the difference here is that Eugene is playing up Ranger’s problems in such an over-the-top way everybody’s in on the joke, whereas OP and his chorus either genuinely believe this is output what Rangers can aspire to or are playing halfhearted for humor’s sake so subtly it leaves the third party viewer the impression that this is all par for the course.

In 700 hours of playing can you honestly back OP’s performance with your full faith and confidence? Because that’s kind of the impression I get from your defense of it.

We made a video http://youtu.be/PJK3OZt8rC8
You can watch Brazil spam short bow for about 1k at the first room then pick up a banner and auto attack for about 3.5-4k and do banner #4 for 5-8k. Even with the slower attack swing it seems to do more dps.

I’m becoming increasingly attached to my level 2 asura ranger who is level 5 now.

obal.3218:

People argue that they do but never post any sort of evidence since they can’t back up their claims with the current state of the profession. After being called out on the other thread about how I don’t know anything I did this test to show how bad the DPS really is so people would accept reality and try a different profession. I would also hope that ANET has looked at my thread of tests as well as our other test on Brazil’s thread to see that they really need to be balanced Rangers better for PVE.

the logical thing for ANET to do after seeing this would be to increase rangers dps but what will actually happen is they will nerf warriors banner damage

Clumsy.6257:

obal.3218:

People argue that they do but never post any sort of evidence since they can’t back up their claims with the current state of the profession. After being called out on the other thread about how I don’t know anything I did this test to show how bad the DPS really is so people would accept reality and try a different profession. I would also hope that ANET has looked at my thread of tests as well as our other test on Brazil’s thread to see that they really need to be balanced Rangers better for PVE.

the logical thing for ANET to do after seeing this would be to increase rangers dps but what will actually happen is they will nerf warriors banner damage

^ Anet logic.

Following that they’ll nerf Ele’s Conjures.

Rangers, not matter what they do, just kitten off other people.

Clumsy.6257:

the logical thing for ANET to do after seeing this would be to increase rangers dps but what will actually happen is they will nerf warriors banner damage

I’m calling it.

• Warrior Banners can now only be picked up by the player who placed them.

Rengaru.4730:

I’m calling it.

• Warrior Banners can now only be picked up by the player who placed them.

Well to compensate for this huge nerf warrior banners now give 2x more buffs.

If you’re after some perspective, why don’t you just ask on forums for it?

Now, the Ranger sub-forum is admittedly kind of……well…
But I’m sure a fansite like Reddit or GW2Guru could give you some solid benchmarks to better align your expectations, and in depth descriptions of what the gameplay entails so you can have a better understanding of where the shortcomings come into play and where they’re non-issue.

Although I’m surely not an expert, I’d offer to help. But I gotta’ admit, saying words like ‘calling out’ sort of sets off red flags. It’s kind of hard to give other people advice when you think they’re going to interpret it as some kind passive aggressive maneuver of competitive forum oneupmanship. Especially since you’re not really out for advice, exactly, just attempting to prove a negative bias as a part of a larger competition started in another thread. You can’t really blame people for not wanting to reach out their hand to somebody whose made it so clear they ultimately want to bite it.

The people who argue in favor of rangers not being handicapped in dungeons by comparison are working against the class. If ANet does not share the views expressed by those driving the meta, then they will point to those posts and say, “See, these people think we’re doing OK by rangers.” I can’t help but think that that is not in the best interest of those who like the class.

One of my best friends main in GW1 was a ranger. He liked the class. He’s currently not very happy with this game. You see, he has conflicting desires. He wants to play ranger. He wants to do dungeons. He also wants to feel like he is carrying his own weight. He has concluded the class doesn’t. By comparison to what other classes can bring, he’s right.

Yes, rangers can do dungeons. All ranger parties can do dungeons. Despite this, rangers aren’t carrying their own weight, and arguing that they do is more likely going to hamper any possible changes to the class to make it competitive.

Exactly right Indigo, those of us pointing out Ranger shortcomings actually want them to do better. I have a level 80 that I’d love to play in dungeons without feeling completely powerless and guilty about my team carrying me.

Sticking your head in the sand and yelling at anyone who tries to display the reality is a good way to ensure that they never get made any better. But then, those people think that 30-90 minutes for a single dungeon path is normal, so there’s really no reaching a lot of them.

People who insist that Rangers are A-OK and do “great” damage and “carry” their team live in an alternate reality.

@Indigo

I agree, you should absolutely be campaigning for changes to Ranger, especially in terms of pet survivability. But I think you should be doing so with your feet firmly planted on the ground speaking from a position that shows your understanding of the mechanics and where they’re falling short. Not drumming up aimless drama.

If you mean to say:
‘I hate that my profession mechanic’s skill floor is so variable based on encounter, and I notice the skill floor becomes so high it’s unapproachable in AOE heavy fights like x, and y and z. This is a problem because popular Power building options are especially dependent on the pet. Active offense is ultimately a beastmaster role because of the nature of signets and shouts, and passive offense relies on the pet to make up the difference of lackluster marksmanship minors. I notice as dungeon teams continue to iterate on the direction of dungeon design with temporary content, these sorts of problematic fights are becoming more of a standard and as a result working with the mechanic is becoming progressively more frustrating.’

And you end up saying:
‘my pets are dying all the time, and because of that ranger deeps suxxx’

You don’t really present the problem in the most focused light, and you could invite alot of misconceptions and miscommunications. It’s not as though they aren’t aware of what the problems are, what they don’t know is how much you hate each one. Use your discontent as a vote, and properly assign it to the actual specific problem you want fixed instead of grand sweeping hyperbolic statements that lack any real direction.

/face
/desk
/face
/desk

Broadicea.8294:

Sticking your head in the sand and yelling at anyone who tries to display the reality is a good way to ensure that they never get made any better.

It’s also a good way to get a mouthful of sand.

Did Vox Hollow just write a giant pile of nothing?

Potentially :p

It seems like pretty obvious stuff to me.
More unified focused feedback, less aimless cries for attention. But, I’ve been mired in industry stuff for years now, and I’ve ended up baffling people by taking game design stuff for granted as common knowledge in the past. So I take great pains to explain things in way too much detail, like that long bit about metrics, because I’ve kind of lost sight of where the ‘no kitten sherlock’ line is.

Lemme’ cut out some of that rambling.

Boring.

/15 chars

you people are just bad and can’t meet rangers’ high skill floor

Wukunlin.8461:

you people are just bad and can’t meet rangers’ high skill floor

SO true.

Clumsy.6257:

obal.3218:

People argue that they do but never post any sort of evidence since they can’t back up their claims with the current state of the profession. After being called out on the other thread about how I don’t know anything I did this test to show how bad the DPS really is so people would accept reality and try a different profession. I would also hope that ANET has looked at my thread of tests as well as our other test on Brazil’s thread to see that they really need to be balanced Rangers better for PVE.

the logical thing for ANET to do after seeing this would be to increase rangers dps but what will actually happen is they will nerf warriors banner damage

That’s why the nerfed the ranger shortbow. Because the longbow looked bad. I’m not even joking.

I now expect to read about how damage coefficients from banners and conjured weapons are now adjusted for each class in an upcoming patch note. They’ll make it so that everyone can still pick them up, but rangers will still be useless when they do.

not sure if srs or what? is there a TLDR

JJBigs.8456:

not sure if srs or what? is there a TLDR

TLDR- Rangers are bad.

This is a really stupid thread.

1) Ranger sword is one of the fastest attacks in the game. It hits a full chain approximately every 1.8 seconds, which means it hits at the same speed as the warrior’s axe chain. By comparison, a warrior’s greatsword chain takes 2.5s, which means the ranger attacks almost as fast as a greatsword warrior does with quickness on.

2) Rangers have immensely high crit rate by default. Spotter is now +150 precision to the entire party, which is worth 7% crit chance, and they maintain fury more easily than any other class. A ranger with Spotter, 30 in Skirmishing, and full zerker armor with Ruby Orbs will have a crit chance of 84.7%. Add in the Warrior’s Banner of Discipline and a consumable that gives +100 precision, and Sigil of Accuracy, and you have a crit chance over 100%. The guardian is the only other class that can achieve those numbers.

3) Rangers have a pet, which also contributes DPS. I see no indication of pet damage measurements in this post, but a pet typically contributes between 1-2k DPS. In terms of total damage, a totally decked out ranger (might, fury, vulnerability, banners, consumable, Spotter, Empower Allies) hits for over 10k DPS once you include the pet’s damage. That is almost identical to the guardian’s DPS and higher than the warrior’s DPS, which is about 9.6k.

tl;dr rangers are actually one of the strongest classes in the game. If there is a significant weakness on their part, it is the awkward movement on the sword chain. Then again, without that rooting effect, the ranger would insanely overpowered. That’s not hyperbole. The ranger does obscene amounts of damage and provide extremely strong group buffs that stack with the ones the warrior provides. Couple that with a guardian providing defensive buffs and an engineer stacking conditions and you have a pretty strong holy quadrinity.

On the basis of group buffs, DPS potential, and overall usefulness, at least in PvE, from best to worst:

Engineer
Guardian
Ranger
Warrior
Mesmer
Elementalist
Thief
Necromancer

Note how high ranger is on that list.

You must play a different game. No offense, but your ‘best to worst’ list is total bullkitten.

I can make a random list of gw2 profession too.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

This is a really stupid thread.

1) Ranger sword is one of the fastest attacks in the game. It hits a full chain approximately every 1.8 seconds, which means it hits at the same speed as the warrior’s axe chain. By comparison, a warrior’s greatsword chain takes 2.5s, which means the ranger attacks almost as fast as a greatsword warrior does with quickness on.

2) Rangers have immensely high crit rate by default. Spotter is now +150 precision to the entire party, which is worth 7% crit chance, and they maintain fury more easily than any other class. A ranger with Spotter, 30 in Skirmishing, and full zerker armor with Ruby Orbs will have a crit chance of 84.7%. Add in the Warrior’s Banner of Discipline and a consumable that gives +100 precision, and Sigil of Accuracy, and you have a crit chance over 100%. The guardian is the only other class that can achieve those numbers.

3) Rangers have a pet, which also contributes DPS. I see no indication of pet damage measurements in this post, but a pet typically contributes between 1-2k DPS. In terms of total damage, a totally decked out ranger (might, fury, vulnerability, banners, consumable, Spotter, Empower Allies) hits for over 10k DPS once you include the pet’s damage. That is almost identical to the guardian’s DPS and higher than the warrior’s DPS, which is about 9.6k.

tl;dr rangers are actually one of the strongest classes in the game. If there is a significant weakness on their part, it is the awkward movement on the sword chain. Then again, without that rooting effect, the ranger would insanely overpowered. That’s not hyperbole. The ranger does obscene amounts of damage and provide extremely strong group buffs that stack with the ones the warrior provides. Couple that with a guardian providing defensive buffs and an engineer stacking conditions and you have a pretty strong holy quadrinity.

On the basis of group buffs, DPS potential, and overall usefulness, at least in PvE, from best to worst:

Engineer
Guardian
Ranger
Warrior
Mesmer
Elementalist
Thief
Necromancer

Note how high ranger is on that list.

Are you insane?

And where did you pull those dps numbers, your backside?

Guang, if we are talking about 1v1 vs PvP Golems then maybe you are right. I have to disagree with you in the case of actual dungeons, though.