Guild Wars 2

Leo G.4501:

The reason trust isn’t happening is primarily because you say nothing to back it up besides “Everyone else admits it, so it’s True!!! Promise!”.

Yeah, no. People parade their opinion on things on the forum, always wildly generalizing things with misconceived theories, artificially generated scenarios mix with outright being wrong. And the error never wants to be corrected. The forum will go on thinking they’re right and regurgitating the same nonsense despite being wrong, despite evidence to the contrary. All you point to is War/Mesmer speed running CoF 1 and the number of shiny boons of a Guardian or the other posts bashing Ranger as evidence.

I don’t simply mistrust the opinion of the forums and yourself, I think it’s wrong. Utilizing a class and their weapons/tools properly can go a long way and I feel at least 40% of the back talk on the class is due to poor utilization. Another 30% is just the minority min/maxers theorycrafting scenarios.

Of course, I could be wrong in all of this, but it doesn’t seem like it. Maybe if the haters weren’t all talking in hyperbolish, their opinion might sound logical. But I could work on another bullet point on my lengthening list of “What the forums was wrong about”.

See the difference between you and me is that I have experience with more than one class and you don’t. Until you show me otherwise your opinion on the topic is void.
You scream that I have no proof, because obviously hundreds of threads (crying about state of rangers) popping up all over these forums every day is not enough evidence. News flash: I don’t have to prove you kitten. You are not paying me to crunch numbers for you, so you go and try it. Come back when you have an informed opinion.
Right now you just throwing baseless statement like “oh rangers can do all things”. Bullcrap. Rangers can’t do anything good, which makes them obsolete in end game party. Their theoretical single target DPS with 100% pet uptime isn’t bad. In any real dungeon encounter they do joke damage.
Support? What support? Healing spring (which is useless on its own), and what else?
You want me to list all the buffs and heals my guardian outputs, while still doing better DPS on typical trash pull?
You have shown NOTHING to support your outlandish opinions. All you do is trying to make me prove you things that are common knowledge. Keep it up and you’ll end up in my block list.

swiftpaw.6397:

Trollhammer.7439:

I came to similar conclusion as many people here after playing ranger at 80. Ranger is just bad in end game content. They have poor support, and have to work twice as hard to just deal damage, which comes naturally for other classes. Pets are a dead horse. No point in beating it further.
I watched the recent dev interview and does not look promising either. So if you wanna run end game content – do yourself a favor and reroll.

swiftpaw.6397:

it’s acceptable if you are a skilled player.

For my ranger in dungeons I run full glass cannon with Longbow/shortbow, quickness on pet swap. I also take muddy terrain and Entangle for some excellent CC in places like fractals shaman boss and charr fractals charging warriors.

Please do not ever use longbow. You are willingly making yourself a waste of a party slot. Use Axe/Warhorn for your second set. At least you can throw some buffs and bleeds on swap instead of just doing horrid DPS that nobody will even notice if it is gone.

Actually you can hit as high as 14k shots with rapid fire on longbow as full glass cannon+ food, Add in Piercing arrows trait, and that’s some very nice AOE damage.

I would not say that is nothing and not noticeable. In fact when we do shaman boss, if the dps isnt high enough in my pug to take down the vets, i’ll grab the ranger and spike them down no problem. With quickness on pet swap + quickening zephire, you can almost always have quickness up to run through your longbow rapid fire, barrage and +10 vulnerability shot, then you can switch to shortbow again to maintain the DPS. Add in your openning shots trait, thats +15 stacks of aoe vaulnerability. Your barrage also serves a large aoe damage and cripple to slow mobs, particularly useful in dredge fractal. Even Point Blank Shot can be used very effectively to line up and shoot back charging warriors in the charr fract, or other undesired mobs.

Warhorn’s birds are nice, but the fury skill is useless because you can trait to gain fury on weapon swap anyway, and a warrior in your party will always be a better source of fury than you are, Also that one stack of might and swiftness is a bit of a joke. And speaking of bad damage, the axe is rather poor.

You are ( I suppose) referring to a condition build, but this is not the only build available and I find it rather sad that you would belittle others because they don’t do the same as you.

Well, excuse me for assuming you would run a condition build since you have a shortbow in there. If you are not, then the shortbow is a waste of the equip slot. No matter how you turn it, its a pretty bad combo.

Thanks for bringing up Piercing Arrows btw. Note how it is a pretty much required trait for any bow build, and yet no other class have to trait into cleave for their weapons. If you look closely that is exactly how everything about ranger is. They need to trait and spec deeply into things that come naturally to other classes.
Oh, you want 30% of your damage to not be perpetually dead? You’ll have to micro it back and forth (which of course defeats the main purpose of keeping it alive) or trait deeply into BM hurting the rest of you damage. No other class have to do that.
Want your signets to work? There is a trait for that too!

Trollhammer.7439:

swiftpaw.6397:

Trollhammer.7439:

I came to similar conclusion as many people here after playing ranger at 80. Ranger is just bad in end game content. They have poor support, and have to work twice as hard to just deal damage, which comes naturally for other classes. Pets are a dead horse. No point in beating it further.
I watched the recent dev interview and does not look promising either. So if you wanna run end game content – do yourself a favor and reroll.

swiftpaw.6397:

it’s acceptable if you are a skilled player.

For my ranger in dungeons I run full glass cannon with Longbow/shortbow, quickness on pet swap. I also take muddy terrain and Entangle for some excellent CC in places like fractals shaman boss and charr fractals charging warriors.

Please do not ever use longbow. You are willingly making yourself a waste of a party slot. Use Axe/Warhorn for your second set. At least you can throw some buffs and bleeds on swap instead of just doing horrid DPS that nobody will even notice if it is gone.

Actually you can hit as high as 14k shots with rapid fire on longbow as full glass cannon+ food, Add in Piercing arrows trait, and that’s some very nice AOE damage.

I would not say that is nothing and not noticeable. In fact when we do shaman boss, if the dps isnt high enough in my pug to take down the vets, i’ll grab the ranger and spike them down no problem. With quickness on pet swap + quickening zephire, you can almost always have quickness up to run through your longbow rapid fire, barrage and +10 vulnerability shot, then you can switch to shortbow again to maintain the DPS. Add in your openning shots trait, thats +15 stacks of aoe vaulnerability. Your barrage also serves a large aoe damage and cripple to slow mobs, particularly useful in dredge fractal. Even Point Blank Shot can be used very effectively to line up and shoot back charging warriors in the charr fract, or other undesired mobs.

Warhorn’s birds are nice, but the fury skill is useless because you can trait to gain fury on weapon swap anyway, and a warrior in your party will always be a better source of fury than you are, Also that one stack of might and swiftness is a bit of a joke. And speaking of bad damage, the axe is rather poor.

You are ( I suppose) referring to a condition build, but this is not the only build available and I find it rather sad that you would belittle others because they don’t do the same as you.

Well, excuse me for assuming you would run a condition build since you have a shortbow in there. If you are not, then the shortbow is a waste of the equip slot. No matter how you turn it, its a pretty bad combo.

Thanks for bringing up Piercing Arrows btw. Note how it is a pretty much required trait for any bow build, and yet no other class have to trait into cleave for their weapons. If you look closely that is exactly how everything about ranger is. They need to trait and spec deeply into things that come naturally to other classes.
Oh, you want 30% of your damage to not be perpetually dead? You’ll have to micro it back and forth (which of course defeats the main purpose of keeping it alive) or trait deeply into BM hurting the rest of you damage. No other class have to do that.
Want your signets to work? There is a trait for that too!

I’m not arguing that ranger is some amazing class in dungeons, I am of the opinion they are pretty sub-par. But I do believe they become acceptable when played correctly. It is well known that the SB/LB combo with full glass will give the best DPS in dungeons, even if as you have constantly argued, warrior does more. The damage over time of the shortbow autoattack, even with no condition gear is still better than your other options.

And I agree, piercing arrows as a trait line is pretty stupid, but that’s what we have to use. Imo, all ranger arrows should be piercing by default.

And yes, we all know that ranger’s utility is a joke, so may as well get the most optimal DPS in and try to perform as much CC as possible through traps, knockback, cripple and entangle.

Trollhammer.7439:

See the difference between you and me is that I have experience with more than one class and you don’t.

You’d be wrong. I have mostly experience with the supposed ‘trinity’ classes, just none with Ranger (or Necro).

You scream that I have no proof, because obviously hundreds of threads (crying about state of rangers) popping up all over these forums every day is not enough evidence. News flash: I don’t have to prove you kitten. You are not paying me to crunch numbers for you, so you go and try it. Come back when you have an informed opinion.

Several things:
-People scream about the state of EVERY profession (there’s a News flash for you).
-People are wrong more often than they are right.
-People rarely ever want to admit they are wrong or ignorant.
-I’m not asking you to crunch any numbers. But speaking in hyperbole just makes you sound wrong, increases the likelihood that you are wrong and puts yourself in the same boat as the rest of the sheep that will parrot what everyone else says even though they have no idea if it’s true or not.

If I were stupid enough to accept what hundreds of forum complainers say, I’d expect Warriors to be in hideous shape, unable to survive even a hit of dungeon aggression without scurrying off and swapping to rifle. This isn’t true in any case but the hundreds of forum posts screaming about the Omnomberry pies nerfed would have you believe otherwise.

Right now you just throwing baseless statement like “oh rangers can do all things”.

Never said that.

Bullcrap. Rangers can’t do anything good, which makes them obsolete in end game party.

See, that’s a stupid statement there because I’m kitten sure I could prove that wrong.

You have shown NOTHING to support your outlandish opinions. All you do is trying to make me prove you things that are common knowledge. Keep it up and you’ll end up in my block list.

My outlandish opinion is that the community has outlandish opinions. That isn’t to say the reasonable people that say Ranger don’t quite measure up in certain aspects are outlandish or wrong. But the people that swear up and down Rangers are bad, they get the party killed, they bring nothing to a group, that they can’t do anything, well that’s just a lie. Why would I listen to liars?

And block away. You’d have been better off blocking all those that call you on your lies a long time ago.

@Leo G.4501
so you basically you arguing semantics for the sake of the argument.

Semantics involves dealing with the meanings of words and phrases. It has nothing to do with sifting through lies to find a grain of truth.

Go back to the nerf to Omnomberry Pies, you’d think it was a direct Warrior nerf by how it was presented on the forums. People swore up and down Warriors were terrible and zerker geared ones practically explode when touched and it was impossible to survive as one. There’s no semantics involved exposing this hyperbole.

Trollhammer: You’re worse than the pope. That guy thinks his opinions are also “facts”, “the truth” etc. Every opinion that doesnt fit you is “bs” etc. You’re not capable of grasping anything that is beyond your limited pov. Your “reasoning” is full of holes, but that’s the least of your concerns. You’re only shouting people down. What a blockhead. And with that i rest my case lol.

Zoef why dont you present some counter evidence to refute his claims and maybe even change his mind?

Renegade.6325:

To Zoef, this argument is about skilled players, not bad ones. Bad players playing badly is an inevitability, not evidence.

As much as that is true, there is a difference in skill caps for certain classes and effective builds. The developers discussed this with sPvP, a lot of people thought the thief was a very OP class using a specific glass build, but that was because players were using high skill cap builds without the skill to reach effectiveness with it, or simply bad builds. Not all classes have effective and competitive low skill cap builds. The most obvious one is the greatsword warrior. It’s a very low skill cap build with some of the highest DPS. Other classes might be able to reach or surpass that DPS, but not across the spectrum of player skill levels and not reliably. The natural survivability and incredible DPS of the warrior pushes them ahead of other classes.

If rangers had a competitive low skill cap build that could compete with warriors they wouldn’t be disliked as much as some people are saying in this thread. Even a skilled player playing a high skill cap ranger build will face a hard cap on how far they can go simply because the pet design is inadequate in high end PvE and the developers continue to let that wound fester and rot away at the class.

As much as some people are focusing on skilled players vs average players, the accessibility and general performance of the class is just as important to community perception of the class as player skill, if not more important.

As far as people posting about warriors dealing more DPS than rangers and not going down when supported, most rangers adequately played will go down less than warriors. You don’t need to support a ranger (assuming they are ranged) as much as a warrior so that’s one less resource the party can invest in DPS instead of support and that’s less time dealing with a downed warrior. Ranger DPS is very reliable (excluding pets – and the amount of DPS a pet does in comparison to the ranger has been greatly exaggerated in this thread, it is not 50% and it will fluctuate greatly depending on your build) and consistent, most rangers should be able to stay up without assistance.

Trollhammer.7439:

Well, excuse me for assuming you would run a condition build since you have a shortbow in there. If you are not, then the shortbow is a waste of the equip slot. No matter how you turn it, its a pretty bad combo.

It’s time for you to stop posting. The maths have been done, it’s been proven than the shortbow is the same or, and in many cases, better DPS than the longbow – without condition damage. Your ignorance of how the ranger class works and your inability to factually discuss the class without perpetuating fallacies is becoming a hindrance to this discussion. I have seven level 80 characters, I don’t understand how to play most of them anywhere near as well as I know my ranger, but I do understand my ranger, much better than you appear to understand the ranger. It’s time for you to stop.

Zoef.2761:

Trollhammer: U are simply not capable of making the distinction between facts and your own narrowminded opinions. Calling your opinion a fact doesn’t make it a fact. It just shows how shallow your reasoning is and how weak your arguments. That’s the reason you call your opinions “reality”, “facts” and so on.
I have already admitted that warrior has better DPS than ranger. No argument about that. Why does warrior have better DPS? Because that’s typical for warrior.
I have already admitted that guardian has better healing than ranger. No argument about that. Why does guardian have better healing? Because that’s typical for guardian. I can’t see what point you’re making by kicking in open doors.
My point is that ranger does both which makes the class a valuable supporting class. You dont seem to get that.
Btw: i got a fully geared up warrior. What exotic armour or ascended armour has got to do with reasoning in a decent way I dont know. But then again, your opinions are “facts” and you definitely dont like them to be questioned. Not a very sound base of thinking, and that’s just my opinion, not a fact.

Don’t be a moron. A shout healing warrior will do more support, damage, and healing than a ranger will do.

Pretty much every class but the mesmer and thief has a decent way of healing others.

The ranger is fun in animations and visual appeal, but as a class it doesn’t do anything that another class doesn’t do better. And hell, all you need for dungeons is raw damage and a damage soaker like guardian or bunker ele sharing boons/healing with the group.

In some cases group reflection, of which the guardian is king followed by the mesmer. The ranger doesn’t have that either. Its damage is bad, its utility is mostly selfish and what isn’t selfish is kitten

Zenith.7301:

Don’t be a moron. A shout healing warrior will do more support, damage, and healing than a ranger will do.

How much damage can a shout warrior do? Once one figures that out, you can compare that to the potential DPS of a ranger. There are other variables, like sustain via defense, dodging and condition removal but you can leave that out to just compare DPS and healing. Once (if) you can get DPS around a shout warrior (I don’t think it’s going to be that hard) then you can start putting heals in the Ranger to see relative effectiveness.

I would guess that a Ranger can do more DPS than a shout healing warrior if built/played right (a condition warrior can outdamage one, so don’t see why a ranger couldn’t) as the Warrior would have to sacrifice quite a bit for effective shouting (30 trait points, 2 utility slots, some healing gear, maybe even runes). If the Ranger can be built to support by simply swapping a utility swap here or there, that’s a big difference in overall build flexibility.

Pretty much every class but the mesmer and thief has a decent way of healing others.

I’ve seen mesmer mantra healing builds that heal for more than shout healing without investing in healing power gear.

Leo G.4501:

Zenith.7301:

Don’t be a moron. A shout healing warrior will do more support, damage, and healing than a ranger will do.

How much damage can a shout warrior do? Once one figures that out, you can compare that to the potential DPS of a ranger. There are other variables, like sustain via defense, dodging and condition removal but you can leave that out to just compare DPS and healing. Once (if) you can get DPS around a shout warrior (I don’t think it’s going to be that hard) then you can start putting heals in the Ranger to see relative effectiveness.

I would guess that a Ranger can do more DPS than a shout healing warrior if built/played right (a condition warrior can outdamage one, so don’t see why a ranger couldn’t) as the Warrior would have to sacrifice quite a bit for effective shouting (30 trait points, 2 utility slots, some healing gear, maybe even runes). If the Ranger can be built to support by simply swapping a utility swap here or there, that’s a big difference in overall build flexibility.

Pretty much every class but the mesmer and thief has a decent way of healing others.

I’ve seen mesmer mantra healing builds that heal for more than shout healing without investing in healing power gear.

Except mantras are horrible and you are either sacrificing null field/feedback/stunbreaker for it. It takes a considerable casting time — warrior shouts are instant. Oh, and most mantras outside mantra of recovery are terrible in dungeons.

And LOL at a ranger outDPSing a shout warrior. You put up a youtube of it and we’ll talk. A warrior even with shield/axe will outdamage anything a ranger can put out in most dungeon encounters. Testing on golems doesn’t come close to reflecting the damage of the pet in most encounters given that in Arah/fractals you can’t even run high DPS pets and the amount of time you’ll spend calling them back to you so they don’t die — cutting your damage in half.

I also don’t know in what world you live where a condition build will ever beat a berserker geared player in burst and sustained, let alone the stacking effectiveness of berserk vs. condition builds.

Dude stop perpetuating the myth that pet’s are half of the ranger’s DPS, they are not. The amount of unfounded (and mostly untrue) criticism of the class that’s taking place in this thread makes me regret ever posting here.

Zenith.7301:

Except mantras are horrible and you are either sacrificing null field/feedback/stunbreaker for it. It takes a considerable casting time — warrior shouts are instant. Oh, and most mantras outside mantra of recovery are terrible in dungeons.

You only really need 1 mantra for a mantra healing build: Mantra of Pain. You can still pick up one mantra and be judicial about the other two slots. If you need a stun breaker, Staff has one built in (pretty much).

And LOL at a ranger outDPSing a shout warrior. You put up a youtube of it and we’ll talk. A warrior even with shield/axe will outdamage anything a ranger can put out in most dungeon encounters. Testing on golems doesn’t come close to reflecting the damage of the pet in most encounters given that in Arah/fractals you can’t even run high DPS pets and the amount of time you’ll spend calling them back to you so they don’t die — cutting your damage in half.

I like how you put in those qualifiers like “in most dungeon encounters”.

I also don’t know in what world you live where a condition build will ever beat a berserker geared player in burst and sustained, let alone the stacking effectiveness of berserk vs. condition builds.

If you’re in berserker gear, then you’re not a shout heal warrior. 1.1k healing shouts is practically a waste of traits. A good condition build can come in a couple of varieties, being tanky while dishing out good condition damage or just really painful and long conditions with decent direct damage to supplement it. I’d have trouble believing a real healing shout warrior could out DPS a good condition build (as conditions serve usually as a supplement to the decent direct damage).

Shiren.9532:

Dude stop perpetuating the myth that pet’s are half of the ranger’s DPS, they are not. The amount of unfounded (and mostly untrue) criticism of the class that’s taking place in this thread makes me regret ever posting here.

around 40% untraited if you’re using an offensive pet. Go to the mist and make your math. Thats assuming autoattacks of course

Also LOL at the people who said “ranger might have mediocre dps, but GREAT support”, made my day, spirits would like to have a word with you.

I don’t know a single dungoen where a ranger would be useful, but lots where a ranger would basically destroy the run over and over again. Even if the player is doing perfect, the pet is not 100% controllable.

To Zenith: I have to laugh when I read your first line “Don’t be a moron”. I have never claimed in the post you refer to that a ranger does more damage than any warrior. Quite the opposite, in fact. Are you able to read and understand what i wrote in that post? And then you call me a moron? I don’t call people morons, but you definitely seem to qualify.
To Renegade: see my previous posts.
And now I stop posting here because the level of discussion is really pathetic in some cases.

Trollhammer.7439:

Support? What support? Healing spring (which is useless on its own), and what else?
You want me to list all the buffs and heals my guardian outputs, while still doing better DPS on typical trash pull?
.

You should ask the rangers to reroll as kit/grenadier engis and they will know what real support is (tons of healing + CC) AND DPS with max range to boot. Or even as elementalist.

@Zoef.2761
Stop spewing nonsense. You already faceplanted on basic argument of wherever or not ranger is any good for the team. What else you trying to prove here? Both players in bulk and this thread overwhelmingly shown that rangers have no place in end game. It is all around bad class that excels at nothing and not particularly good at being jack of all trades either. You can grasp for words all you want, but the vote has been cast and matter sealed, only you haven’t moved on.

Leo G.4501:

Zenith.7301:

Except mantras are horrible and you are either sacrificing null field/feedback/stunbreaker for it. It takes a considerable casting time — warrior shouts are instant. Oh, and most mantras outside mantra of recovery are terrible in dungeons.

You only really need 1 mantra for a mantra healing build: Mantra of Pain. You can still pick up one mantra and be judicial about the other two slots. If you need a stun breaker, Staff has one built in (pretty much).

And LOL at a ranger outDPSing a shout warrior. You put up a youtube of it and we’ll talk. A warrior even with shield/axe will outdamage anything a ranger can put out in most dungeon encounters. Testing on golems doesn’t come close to reflecting the damage of the pet in most encounters given that in Arah/fractals you can’t even run high DPS pets and the amount of time you’ll spend calling them back to you so they don’t die — cutting your damage in half.

I like how you put in those qualifiers like “in most dungeon encounters”.

I also don’t know in what world you live where a condition build will ever beat a berserker geared player in burst and sustained, let alone the stacking effectiveness of berserk vs. condition builds.

If you’re in berserker gear, then you’re not a shout heal warrior. 1.1k healing shouts is practically a waste of traits. A good condition build can come in a couple of varieties, being tanky while dishing out good condition damage or just really painful and long conditions with decent direct damage to supplement it. I’d have trouble believing a real healing shout warrior could out DPS a good condition build (as conditions serve usually as a supplement to the decent direct damage).

Mantra of Pain does less damage than your melee autoattack. It’s a waste of a slot.

I’m even appalled that you would suggest the staff as a PvE weapon. Its damage is horrendous in dungeons.

In full berserker a shout warrior will still heal for around 4k total, remove conditions, and offer boons like long duration fury to his party while doing substantial damage. Even in knights gear he’ll be outdamaging most specs that aren’t a thief.

Zenith.7301:

I’m even appalled that you would suggest the staff as a PvE weapon. Its damage is horrendous in dungeons.

Not every encounter is a DPS check. If your teammates are melee guys even guardians who are getting killed, Chaos Storm will save their bacon. Let’s see rangers coming up with anything remotely close. If you are saying staff auto attack damage is poor, you are right but you are forgetting the phantasmal warlock which hits for a good amount of damage. And you can switch back to your other set of weapons anytime.

On the flip side, I really hate mesmers who think GS is their ONLY weapon.

Shiren.9532:

Dude stop perpetuating the myth that pet’s are half of the ranger’s DPS, they are not. The amount of unfounded (and mostly untrue) criticism of the class that’s taking place in this thread makes me regret ever posting here.

Your analysis on P. 1 was spot on imo, and probably should have been /thread.

Unfortunately, it was probably too long for some people.

Zenith.7301:

Mantra of Pain does less damage than your melee autoattack. It’s a waste of a slot.

It’s also a 2sec recharging mantra that can heal in an AoE for over 3k health without devoting anything to healing power.

I’m even appalled that you would suggest the staff as a PvE weapon. Its damage is horrendous in dungeons.

Staff = clones can shatter before being destroyed without investing in toughness or devoting traits/utilities to heartier illusions.

I also like how you completely lost track of the conversation.

When did we start talking about DPS mesmers? We’re talking about healing mesmers. Staff is a very good weapon in PvE for it’s overall utility. Are you arguing against that?

In full berserker a shout warrior will still heal for around 4k total, remove conditions, and offer boons like long duration fury to his party while doing substantial damage. Even in knights gear he’ll be outdamaging most specs that aren’t a thief.

Again, that’s sacrificing utility slots, runes and likely stats for healing. I’ve no doubt a warrior twinked out to heal for more than 2k per shout can still deal damage, but you overestimate the output if you think you can outdamage a decent condition warrior build or even a ranger pumping out consistent damage. Believe me, I’ve ran healing shout warriors and regen banner warriors in dungeons. Even in zerker gear, it’s tough making up that gap in damage that a non-support can do.

You might have a perfectly balanced and geared out (likely ascended) healing shout warrior build, but your insistence it still does competitive damage to a condition build (scoring 2k crits with 120+ bleeds and nearly 1k burns a tick) make me leery to take your word for it that it will outdamage a balanced elementalist build, a damage focused ranger build, etc.

Your claims are just way to dramatic to bother trusting.

Renegade.6325:

Zoef:

“My point is that ranger does both which makes the class a valuable supporting class. "

It does not bring enough support to compensate for the loss of dps. Ill budge on that conclusion if you can provide some things that you can do to keep people alive. 1 water field is not enough.

The loss of DPS is situational and often times it is dangerous for melee DPSers to get close to deal damage, and that’s where Ranger DPS shines and no other class can out DPS a Ranger from a distance.

In an encounter where melee is necessary (i.e. Dredge factal taking down flame turrets), a Ranger can switch to GS and still be effective in comparison to other range DPS.

The point is moot about loss of DPS because I’ve seen other professions having a hard time adjusting to maintain their DPS. While a warrior using a rifle because they can’t get close to the target, they are doing horrible DPS…same goes with Guardians using, what, scepter, staff? Where’s the DPS in that? And this is just fighting a Cave Troll in Queensdale.

If you want people to want you in their party run a warrior or a guardian.
Beside those 2 you’ll never see a “LF mesmer/ele/thief/engie/necro/ranger” (ranger being the least desired), with the exception of mesmers for CoF path 1 farming ofc.

That said most dungeons paths are pretty easy once you learn them and people just want to make them easier by running an “optimal” or the “most efficient” party composition.

People hate the typical shortbow ranger standing in the back autoattacking with a dead pet by their side and it’s completely understandable, but if you take the time to learn your class, you’ll find yourself being usefull to your teammates.

To sum it up, If you have in mind running high level fractals or going for the Dungeon Master title, or farming dungeons to make gold, don’t go for ranger.
If you are just a casual player or you are only interested in dungeons to gear your toon and do WvW (my case), don’t even worry about that, rangers are fine.

This thread is so full of lulz. Rangers are inferior. Period. Try to think in “opportunity costs” of what a ranger could bring, and what other classes would bring instead.

Um in regards to the rangers in my party…I like their Healing Spring + my Cluster bomb combination!

Oh rangers, for better for worse, the focus of every “which class is the worst” discussion. So much bias, so much prejudice, so much misconception, so much getting caught up in personal egos that after awhile it makes me think, hey, maybe people actually likes doing this after all, you know, shouting at the other side of the river without knowing fully what’s going on there.

But why don’t we take a step back, let’s save this mainstream thing of picking narrow bits of evidence the size of a grain of sand within an endless desert and argue about it. There are 8 different professions, there are countless encounters, I think we can agree that there is bound to be classes that performs better, are more useful, and are embraced more warmly by the general public, and then hate follows quite naturally from that.

Let’s first talk about this “Capability” thing. I’m not saying best, I’m not saying optimal. I’m not sure if anyone still remember one of the first few high level fractals, I sure do, to be specific, this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQPt8STlszg. Yes yes, I know, there are 2 guardians, and yes yes I know they are Koreans as well so they got it in their genes with video games. But there is also 2 rangers and a thief, which I dare say are the more.. “colourful”(?) ones when it comes to discussions like these, and as far as I know, generally not regarded as the best professions for the shaman fight. Skill is a relative thing, and when blend with a certain profession, becomes even more interesting. So I guess I’ll retire from arguing on either side of the coin, and just say, 2 guardians or not, this group, these 2 rangers and thief, they probably had to spend more effort on this fight, compared to say, a two-guardian-a-mesmer-a-warrior-and-an elementalist-lol-why-you-so-easy-Legendary-Shamam group, but they do have more respect from me.

TBC…

Ahh, now that we got to the so called respect and ego. Actually, that’s what I think what this is mostly about. People just don’t know better about the profession you say? Well, then their impression is even more based on ego and faith (ha! this word is so heavy) isn’t it. In case if you didn’t noticed, I am one of people who thinks rangers are relatively weak. Now halt! Before anyone twist my claim beyond recognition, I didn’t say they are bad, I didn’t say they are useless, I didn’t say they are garbage, I said they are weaker, relatively. One thing we have to realize, is that naturally most of us don’t really set our norm and standard based on ourselves, we look to the top tier, the best, the “elistist”, (ha! I hate this word too, along with noob, funnest, clunky, viable etc, oh, and this is an anecdote, Anet hates word “class”, so use “profession” instead you noobs.), even though ourselves may not even be close to that level. In this enviroment of post release dungeon speedruns and melee/solo/naked Lupi kills, where the truely skilled can avoid most if not all damage while in glass cannon builds, our sense of a good and efficient run is shaped around high dps and bare minimum survival. Do you know what is actually the problem? It’s not that rangers are inherently bad, it’s that you can get through any encounter without a ranger (your Maw argument is invalid!), so…why bring one instead of another profession that you feel you will absolutely need at some point?

I hope no one bring up this this and that skills and say, “but look! this is good!”. The simple fact is, in the upper echelon of PvE slaughtering at maximum efficiency, that is simply not the case, and that’s where most people identify their professions with. I guess we just need to somewhat come to peace with that. But I’m not saying give up your rangers, delete your characters and join the flood of hate. Be THE good ranger, instead of another good guardian/warrior. If you really care or love your profession, so what if you are bearing a little hate or misconception or whatever you call it when it’s a tad on the weaker side, for now. I always have a thing with underdogs. Do you know how people say thieves and engineers are bad in PvE, but that’s not really true? How the truth is that you just have to work twice as much harder and know the fight inside out to show that? I actually have more thieves and engineers on my contact list, the good ones, because they are rarer, they are more impressive, and it actually feels great to play with a good one. I just have a lot more respect for those. The same way I will respect that ranger who spends 5 times more effort soloing Lupi because he thinks doing it with a guardian and warrior is just too trivial.

Asking for an easy way out is not the best, if you want an easier life just go for those more popular classes then. But if it were me then I say bring the rain, anyone who played a game with more than one profession knows there are ups an lows for each one, do not pray for easy lives, pray to be stronger rangers.

P.S: As you can see I have not bothered with providing any evidence whatsoever. So if you want a clarification you can try ask, politely! But.. it’ll just be that same old argument you saw again an again, where I sort of think I know what I’m talking about and you as well and we can’t really convince each other because none of us were looking to be convinced in the first place? So what you can do instead is be a good ranger and I’ll promise I’ll like you, how ‘bout that:). Can’t say the same about your pet though, if you bring an ugly one, like one of those Siames or something.

Not that I want to undermine your positive message, because it’s a good one.

But, trying to evaluate the state of a class by holding everything to the skill ceiling standard and creating ‘winners’ and ‘losers’ just breeds a neverending rotation of dissatisfaction and hysteria for half the classes in the game. No matter how trivial the distance between their effective builds or how impactful the skill curve and practical play may be on that assessment in realistic terms, it’s the same frantic sky-is-falling attitude every time. Because while people are agonizing over ‘top’ and ‘bottom’ of the barrel, they’ve ignored the depth of it.

I just can’t get behind a system like that.

Not to say people can’t talk about the shortcomings of classes, or that they can’t do so through comparison. But this everything-not-optimal-in-theoretical-skill-ceiling-play-is-terrible-for-everybody-everywhere attitude is Alarmist, at best. And, frankly, makes a large swath of forum discussion both irrelevant to joe blow’s everyday gaming and a neverending parade of negativity that’s exhausting to deal with.

I’m certainly no elitist, but Rangers are possibly the worst class in the game, and therefore they are the last class I want to see in my dungeon group. I’d never kick one out unless they proved to be a real moron, but I never look forward to the experience a Ranger will bring, and here’s why:

1. Pets are worthless thanks to the dismal AI. All they do is break up nice AoE grouping and drag distant mobs into encounters you aren’t ready for.
2. Extremely low DPS. Since the pets are too stupid to do any damage, you’re left with the Ranger’s single-target, low damage attacks.
3. Knock backs. You’ve all been in that group where you’re in the middle of a combo and the Ranger knocks your target back 100m.

There are definitely some decent Ranger’s out there who could make me eat my words, but unfortunately, they are few and far between, and as a result, that is my opinion.

Oolune.4357:

Coming back to the game now, I see all this negative talk about Ranger and it worries me, not because I care if it is a little more difficult to get a group but because I am legitimately worried that, in the current state of the game, I may not be able to actually bring something to the table for my guild/party as a Ranger.

Most people think that pet is useless when it dies, but few people think that pet dies because it receives some damage instead of them. Most people think that shortbow could only autoattack, but few people think that shortbow could also cripple and interrupt. Most people think Spirit is a joke and die fast, but few people think if summoning it on the right place, it could last and provide buff for 60 sec. Etc. Don’t let the negative talk mind you. I mainly play ranger and I don’t care what people say. Hope this cheer you up.

Inferior =/= non-viable/bad.

The sooner people understands this, the easier it is to compare other classes properly. Rangers ARE inferior, but that does not make them non-viable for dungeons. You can clear most dungeons if not all with whatever wacky setup you want, but some compositions will do it faster/safer/more consistently. If you take each party member’s individual skill out of the equation of whether you’ll succeed in a dungeon or not, you’re left with the breakdown of what each class can do. (Skill makes up for a larger factor whether you succeed or not than class composition). Some classes are riskier to bring due to the fact they offer less utility / dps / support than other classes. Why should the average joe subject themself to more risk? Most won’t, the ones that do are more patient or delusional. The ones that post how amazing their ranger is in this thread are the delusional ones. The ones that post about how ranger’s can do it too but understand that it’s not the fastest/easiest way but still decide to party with them are the more patient ones.

Ioflux.4369:

Inferior =/= non-viable/bad.

The sooner people understands this, the easier it is to compare other classes properly. Rangers ARE inferior, but that does not make them non-viable for dungeons. You can clear most dungeons if not all with whatever wacky setup you want, but some compositions will do it faster/safer/more consistently. If you take each party member’s individual skill out of the equation of whether you’ll succeed in a dungeon or not, you’re left with the breakdown of what each class can do. (Skill makes up for a larger factor whether you succeed or not than class composition). Some classes are riskier to bring due to the fact they offer less utility / dps / support than other classes. Why should the average joe subject themself to more risk? Most won’t, the ones that do are more patient or delusional. The ones that post how amazing their ranger is in this thread are the delusional ones. The ones that post about how ranger’s can do it too but understand that it’s not the fastest/easiest way but still decide to party with them are the more patient ones.

This exactly. ^ Why take the ranger when you can take the warrior which is faceroll to play class. You don’t know who the average pug is, and chances are they could be very bad. It is better to place your bets on the classes that are easier to play and have the strongest group utility. This is the mentality I find, and it’s much easier to take a ranger when you know who they are and if they are any good.

Rangers are not useless, they are just inferior.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The loss of DPS is situational and often times it is dangerous for melee DPSers to get close to deal damage, and that’s where Ranger DPS shines and no other class can out DPS a Ranger from a distance.

In an encounter where melee is necessary (i.e. Dredge factal taking down flame turrets), a Ranger can switch to GS and still be effective in comparison to other range DPS.

The point is moot about loss of DPS because I’ve seen other professions having a hard time adjusting to maintain their DPS. While a warrior using a rifle because they can’t get close to the target, they are doing horrible DPS…same goes with Guardians using, what, scepter, staff? Where’s the DPS in that? And this is just fighting a Cave Troll in Queensdale.

My COE gear warrior does 8k (up to 10k) damage on one http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Volley and there is http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Brutal_Shot_ which increases vulnerable stack as well. I wouldnt call that horrible DPS and I am much more survivable than a glass cannon ranger.

My glass cannon engi does 800 per grenade for 3 grenades autoattack and has a burst skill of 1000+ x 8 grenades which has a 30s cooldown (shorter when traited). I can even have 2 sigils running while using grenades. If I want to melee, I have a 3s block 20s cooldown skill and a high damage autottack using toolkit.

I believe the ppl defending rangers ONLY play rangers and very few other classes, so they have very little basis for comparison. Necros get a lot of stick in PvE as well but if u run with only one conditionmancer in your party u will notice how quickly mobs die. Can the most pro ranger even compete with that?

LyzeUH.1398:

Um in regards to the rangers in my party…I like their Healing Spring + my Cluster bomb combination!

You can always use a http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Seed_Pod + Cluster bomb combination and bypass the ranger altogether.

Renegade.6325:

Zoef:

“My point is that ranger does both which makes the class a valuable supporting class. "

It does not bring enough support to compensate for the loss of dps. Ill budge on that conclusion if you can provide some things that you can do to keep people alive. 1 water field is not enough.

Fern wolf/Moa F2 = AoE regen
Dwayna runes 6/6 + troll ungent = AoE regen (which is better for the ranger btw than waterfield since troll and regen stack ^^).
Regen on condition trait = character who can walk through almost everything to rez a party member

Some people are just not creative enough.

Warrior has a couple good solid first order optimal strategy builds.
That doesn’t, by extension, mean Warrior regardless of build always has a low skill to power ratio. It just means those particular builds do.

I think people tend to conflate the fact Warrior’s profession mechanic itself has a really approachable skill floor with a decent skill to power ratio (and it does), with the idea that all possible builds you could create on a warrior must run along a similar line. Believe it or not, you can make a warrior build whose effectiveness level is above your average player’s skillset. It seems like a really simple class on it’s face, but there’s honestly a good skill curve.

It is a fair assertion, however, that some classes are seriously lacking in a nicely effective entry level build. And that is sincerely a shame.

Why stop the criticism of Rangers at PvE? Lets talk about PvP . And WvW when rangers arent on top of a wall.

Khal Drogo.9631:

Why stop the criticism of Rangers at PvE? Lets talk about PvP . And WvW when rangers arent on top of a wall.

There is a very good reason for that, might be because this is a dungeon subforum.

Jzl.8715:

There is a very good reason for that, might be because this is a dungeon subforum.

Or that Rangers are even worse in PvP if that was possible.

But I digress – just take a look at the ranger elite skills. Spirit of Nature may be useful if it is traited to move around and doesnt get killed by an AoE or a mob which would be quite often. Rampage 20s of fury, stability and swiftness + a few might stacks of 8s duration with 120s CD (traits cannot lower this CD). And Entangle a 150s cd (can be 20% lower if u are traited into Wilderness) for 20s AOE immobilze/damage/bleed – I would much rather use Avatar of Melandru instead.

Vox Hollow.2736:

It is a fair assertion, however, that some classes are seriously lacking in a nicely effective entry level build. And that is sincerely a shame.

Ranger has a rather low “power” ceiling thats the problem. Its not a L2P is?ue as you assert, which would be the case for the more notoriously tricky professions such as engineer and elementalist.

Lacking a build with high power output for low skill investment is a different problem from feeling like the effort you put forth at the skill ceiling doesn’t have a proportional reward.

I mean, I guess they’re kind of related?
But, not really the same thing.

Khal Drogo.9631:

Jzl.8715:

There is a very good reason for that, might be because this is a dungeon subforum.

Or that Rangers are even worse in PvP if that was possible.

But I digress – just take a look at the ranger elite skills. Spirit of Nature may be useful if it is traited to move around and doesnt get killed by an AoE or a mob which would be quite often. Rampage 20s of fury, stability and swiftness + a few might stacks of 8s duration with 120s CD (traits cannot lower this CD). And Entangle a 150s cd (can be 20% lower if u are traited into Wilderness) for 20s AOE immobilze/damage/bleed – I would much rather use Avatar of Melandru instead.

Except they’re not, sPVP has greater class balance than PvE.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Seed_Pod

Ill just leave this here. Who need’s healing spring again? Ill use my own, tyvm.

JJBigs.8456:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Seed_Pod

Ill just leave this here. Who need’s healing spring again? Ill use my own, tyvm.

You’re just gonna get a 360 second cooldown added to it.

Apart from the pets’ AI, The main issue with Rangers in dungeons is that the dungeons are designed to favour professions that focus on one job.

There is huge potential for creative, responsive and versatile tactics in the Ranger, both through the pet and through utility skills, but it’s potential that doesn’t get fulfilled anywhere in the current game beyond being able to have your pet attack something while you revive an ally or operate machinery. Not just in Dungeons but in the whole game.

It’s like having a Swiss Army Knife in a world with no corks, no cans and no bottlecaps.

Leo G.4501:

Zenith.7301:

Mantra of Pain does less damage than your melee autoattack. It’s a waste of a slot.

It’s also a 2sec recharging mantra that can heal in an AoE for over 3k health without devoting anything to healing power.

I’m even appalled that you would suggest the staff as a PvE weapon. Its damage is horrendous in dungeons.

Staff = clones can shatter before being destroyed without investing in toughness or devoting traits/utilities to heartier illusions.

I also like how you completely lost track of the conversation.

When did we start talking about DPS mesmers? We’re talking about healing mesmers. Staff is a very good weapon in PvE for it’s overall utility. Are you arguing against that?

In full berserker a shout warrior will still heal for around 4k total, remove conditions, and offer boons like long duration fury to his party while doing substantial damage. Even in knights gear he’ll be outdamaging most specs that aren’t a thief.

Again, that’s sacrificing utility slots, runes and likely stats for healing. I’ve no doubt a warrior twinked out to heal for more than 2k per shout can still deal damage, but you overestimate the output if you think you can outdamage a decent condition warrior build or even a ranger pumping out consistent damage. Believe me, I’ve ran healing shout warriors and regen banner warriors in dungeons. Even in zerker gear, it’s tough making up that gap in damage that a non-support can do.

You might have a perfectly balanced and geared out (likely ascended) healing shout warrior build, but your insistence it still does competitive damage to a condition build (scoring 2k crits with 120+ bleeds and nearly 1k burns a tick) make me leery to take your word for it that it will outdamage a balanced elementalist build, a damage focused ranger build, etc.

Your claims are just way to dramatic to bother trusting.

A 2 sec recharge that heals for 2k, not 3k. 2 secs of doing nothing but casting the ability, because there’s this thing called opportunity cost. And that’s coming at the cost of an ethereal field/group condi/boon removal, Decoy (stunbreaker/safe rez), or the critical utility of reflection (and confusion for projectiles).

There is nothing valuable in a healing mesmer. An elementalist can do the job better while not gutting his damage in the process.

DPS is the premium of this game. You don’t have it in grawl shaman 48 fractal? You wipe. Don’t have it for cliffside fractal? Expect to die a lot. Don’t have it for mossman? Expect a 20 minute fight.

Quite frankly your responses strike me as ignorant and iconic of people who don’t give a kitten about efficiency. A warrior doesn’t need to build for healing power to heal substantially — you’re lying. Healing power scales horribly as a stat to begin with.

It’s very simple. You bring the guardians for reflection/group mitigation/healing. You bring elementalists for group mitigation/fields/aoe/control, and you bring warriors for their damage. Switch inb a thief for the dredge fractal to shadow refuge the panel. A mesmer is brought for deflection and time warp alongside 3rd best dps after warrior and thief.

There is no reason besides bringing guardian reflection skills to replace a DPS spec with a support spec — it’s just inefficient.

Zenith.7301:

A 2 sec recharge that heals for 2k, not 3k.

I can’t say I speak from large experience as a Mantra using Mesmer, but checking the wiki and a quick swap of traits just to see for myself, Restorative Mantras heals for 2600ish HP at base. Restorative Mantras is also a Master trait in a trait line that grants healing power, unlike the healing shouts trait. My mesmer, with no healing power gear and 20 points in Inspiration heals for around 2800 HP which is a lot closer to 3k than your supposed healing shouts warrior with no healing gear healing for 2k when the base heal is only 1.2k.

Whatever means you’re using to buff that up to 2k so that you can get your 4k healing reliably, you can do to mesmer and get more healing over time.

2 secs of doing nothing but casting the ability, because there’s this thing called opportunity cost. And that’s coming at the cost of an ethereal field/group condi/boon removal, Decoy (stunbreaker/safe rez), or the critical utility of reflection (and confusion for projectiles).

Again, only need 1 mantra for a mantra healing build. Can’t say from experience though but I have read guides that express this. That means you have 2 slots for your utility which can leave room for your reflect/cleaning field and a stun breaker.

There is nothing valuable in a healing mesmer. An elementalist can do the job better while not gutting his damage in the process.

Mesmers are different. Unlike Elementalist or Warrior, a Mesmer can indeed do damage while doing other things like rezzing or casting mantras. They have these things called illusions and those illusions will attack a foe the mesmer targets when summon. I hope that’s lesson enough for you today.

Next, I’m guessing you’re going to harp on phantasm builds and how you’re weak and/or a noob for not going full shatter. I’ll arrest that case by saying you’re veering off the subject as this was not about DPS mesmer and going for optimal damage, this is about you overestimating healing shout warriors and their 1.2k heal that somehow heals for 4k reliably and not 2/3 being on 60 second cooldowns.

Quite frankly your responses strike me as ignorant and iconic of people who don’t give a kitten about efficiency. A warrior doesn’t need to build for healing power to heal substantially — you’re lying. Healing power scales horribly as a stat to begin with.

No, you’re lying if you’re trying to spout that a Warrior can do substantial healing and support with healing shouts. Face it. The support is weak and you’d probably do more/better getting might duration up or stacking fury than dipping into healing shouts with nothing to make those shouts worthwhile for healing. If you’re going to attribute an aspect of play that a Warrior can outdo a Ranger at, don’t lie and try and cover the fact a warrior would sacrifice a lot of their offensive edge for it.

Leo G.4501:

this is about you overestimating healing shout warriors and their 1.2k heal that somehow heals for 4k reliably and not 2/3 being on 60 second cooldowns.

Fwiw, my warrior has 15 points in Defense, gaining +150 Healing Power. Shouts, when I use them, heal for ~1300. Given that kind of scaling, it is unreasonable to assume that even a full investment in HP would get a shout much above 2k, if they even get there at all. Perhaps he meant 4k from using 3 shouts @ ~1333 each?

As far as shouts go, only Fear Me has a long CD (80), with On My Mark at 30, FGJ and Shake It Off at 25; trait reduction can take that to 64, 24, 20 and 20. There was a time when shouts were considered good, but isn’t the meta thinking on warrior support leaning more toward Banners than shouts?