Guild Wars 2

The underlying problem is that a badly played ranger in a dungeon is a liability. I have no reason to believe that the average ranger is any worse than the average warrior, it’s just that a bad ranger has more opportunities to annoy their party. There is also the fact that bad play from a ranger manifests itself more obviously. A ranger who can’t control their pet is also more obviously annoying than a shout-heal warrior who makes poor rotation choices.

Because a lot of people are deep down pretty dumb, they think that they can generalise for an entire class, so you’ll have to deal with the “rangers are bad players” attitude a bit sadly, and the above, coupled with confirmation bias, means you’ll never talk them out of it.

I have a ranger that I used to take everywhere except dungeons, partly because of the thing where you can’t dodge while holding a sword main hand. It’s a challenging class to play in dungeons, but you can offer a lot (don’t forget condition removal in your healing pools, as well as spotter and frost spirit) and you will always be welcome in Honour of the Waves paths 2 and 3 because of the underwater boss.

robertul.3679:

Stop saying longbow is bad dps. It’s not. Traited longbow hits for 992.25/s only factoring skill modifiers and weapon damage and the 5% damage trait. This is only the autoattack, without considering barrage. As a reference sword hits for 1055.55/s. Yes, longbow is just a bit lower auto.
As for melee>range it’s almost always true. Ele is a notable exception with staff. Engi bombs(melee) hit higher than grenades but all the vuln loss is not worth it.
Don’t think of ranger as an archer. Think of it as Walker, Texas Ranger.

Longbow is bad dps because to get your 992.25/s you can’t stand in melee and get all those great buffs from your teammates like might, banners, fury or give might, fury, spotter to your teammates

In reality you are lowering your personal DPS and your team’s DPS by a considerable margin by camping longbow max range.

As I said I factored only weapon and skill modifier(+trait for lb).
The biggest issue is not the lack of buffs but it really screws the pulls by scattering thrash all over the place. Still people assume longbow is bad dps. It’s not. That’s all I said and it’s true.
I wonder how many pugs actually stack might or give party-wide fury. Yes, some warrior may pop fgj once in a while but that’s pretty much it. I actually had some pug runs today with hurr durr warriors that used rifle and defense banner.
Problem is rangers get all the hate while greatsword mesmers, staff/scepter/mace guardians and the above mentioned warriors get a free pass. Pugs are silly.

Maybe! You! Should! Make! Your! Own! Group! And not be a bearbow baddie!

robertul.3679:

As I said I factored only weapon and skill modifier(+trait for lb).

Skewing data representation does not help your argument that longbow is a good weapon to use, even in a PUG situation – or perhaps especially in a PUG situation.

The situations should be represented as realistically as possible to provide a topical debate.

In this case, we’re discussing why Rangers aren’t as accepted into dungeon groups. This suggests multiple players, of whom will generally be sharing buffs. This does make group buffs pertinent and only basing your statement of “Longbow does good DPS” on stats sans any group modifiers is misleading.

robertul.3679:

The biggest issue is not the lack of buffs but it really screws the pulls by scattering thrash all over the place.

This is also a big factor, I agree, but it doesn’t allow us to ignore or pooh-pooh group buffs.

robertul.3679:

I wonder how many pugs actually stack might or give party-wide fury. Yes, some warrior may pop fgj once in a while but that’s pretty much it. I actually had some pug runs today with hurr durr warriors that used rifle and defense banner.

There are many individual instances you can cite about how terrible one pug or another is, however, the question is, IN GENERAL what is overall better for delivering more damage per second.

If you have 4 party members who cannot provide even a minimal amount of fury or might, doesn’t it mean that it becomes even MORE important that you be able to do so? There aren’t that many classes that can easily provide fury. Warrior can. Elementalist can. Ranger can.

If you’re using longbow in a group situation and Nobody is providing group buff as a worst case scenario, you providing even 5-6 stacks of might and fury will make a bigger DPS difference for overall group DPS. And that makes a big difference.

robertul.3679:

Problem is rangers get all the hate while greatsword mesmers, staff/scepter/mace guardians and the above mentioned warriors get a free pass. Pugs are silly.

Absolutely true. There should be importance in understanding that there are poor weapon choices for other professions too. And yes, PUGs are silly.

It’s not really just rangers that irritate the hell out of me when in pug teams.

If anything I’d say what I can’t stand the most is seeing a rifle warrior, but generally whenever I’m in groups and get people of ANY class ranging things… it kittenes me off! I lose so much of my own damage because they’re pulling bosses away so that I can’t use hundred blades, possibly cause me to take damage from having to unnecessarily travel and cross the path of AoE splats, etc.

It’s just obnoxious. Not only are they dealing awful damage, but they reduce mine drastically as well. With people running around in circles like idiots, you can be sure there is no way that we’re maintaining a high amount of might stacks so axe autoattack will certainly NOT be better DPS than using greatsword would. Therefore, I am greatly hindered.

The other issue that I want to bring up that applies often with the deeply-loathed bearbow pugs is the fact that often times in Arah, for example, their stupid pets can aggro elite mobs. “It’s on passive” pssh.

24/7 Rifle Warriors.

24/7 Staff Guardians.

Staff Elementalists.

Permakit Flamethrower Engineers.

Scepter/Dagger Necromancers.

24/7 Greatsword Mesmers.

24/7 Shortbow Thieves.

If you have a problem with Bearbows, these should also concern you to the same degree.

Also, just because someone rolls a Warrior or Guardian doesn’t always guarantee decent results. And stop pretending you are when you run your kittenty play-your-own bullkitten.

Just when you thought some of these staff guardians only use staff for traveling, they switch to… MACE!

Brilliant.

DiamondMeteor.8345:

24/7 Rifle Warriors.

- snip -

Staff Elementalists.

- snip -

Also, just because someone rolls a Warrior or Guardian doesn’t always guarantee decent results. And stop pretending you are when you run your kittenty play-your-own bullkitten.

Incoming xquared!!!

At first I thought I was going to read a thread concerning the bad manners of rangers in dungeons (their pets biting a teammate?); then I counted the exclamation marks and I thought the op was just venting about a terrible pug he had; then I got convinced it was about exploits, and guardians exploiting and rangers not speed(sploit)running but…
Anyway. A summary to give this thread a chance to shine:
- rangers are discriminated;
- rangers have to range;
- rangers need buffs;
- guardians and warriors are required to complete a dungeon;
- in GW1 classes didn’t matter (lolz);
- guardians and/or warriors exploit and/or speedrun;
- you can’t exploit/speedrun as a ranger;
and again
- rangers are bad;
- longbow is oh man gud deeps;
- sword aa is the only reason why people can’t play ranger (added);
- everyone hates staff guardians;
- parties form with only guards and warriors in them;
- guards and warriors in dungeons are easy mode and op;
- no actually they aren’t, l2p;
- ranging should be a bannable offense;
- make your own groupppppppppp;
- staff elementalists suck.
/sigh
I take it the pug “meta” is stuck on something like 3 warrs 2 guardians?
Now I just need to finish Scarlet a few more times to get my kitten obsidian shards…

dont get mad at the people who want to get through content quickly and efficiently, its not their fault that anet messed up class balance.

if you want to spend 2 hours doing cof path 1 with 5 rangers, no one is stopping you, but dont make kitten posts crying because people dont want their time wasted with kittenty classes

reroll war, cry to anet, or play a different game

Guys, I cried a little tonight.

I found a ranger, in an acp3 pug, running spotter, frost spirit, and sword.

I never thought I would live to see the day. Was honestly so stunned irl that I downed against some gravelings.

It can happen!

maxinion.8396:

Guys, I cried a little tonight.

I found a ranger, in an acp3 pug, running spotter, frost spirit, and sword.

I never thought I would live to see the day. Was honestly so stunned irl that I downed against some gravelings.

It can happen!

You kinda boosted my self esteem. I’ll feel like a living, walking, talking miracle from now on.

http://wowhead.com/sound=11520/a-blcktmple-terongor-enrage01

deSade is the best range I’ve ever met. He doesn’t kitten up, I should l2p from him.

Enaretos.8079:

deSade is the best range I’ve ever met. He doesn’t kitten up, I should l2p from him.

You’re adorable, but… no, I still kinda suck. And I do kitten a lot, like, more kittens than a crazy cat lady. The thing is it’s harder to say “this [insert class here] I know does something you can’t do”.
After all, playing pigbow is a way to feel special, when you’re not special at all.

Rangers are handy when fitted properly, only thing that annoys me is the inevitable troll knock back as I start 100 blades but that is 2 rangers in particular and you know who you are…..

DiamondMeteor.8345:

24/7 Rifle Warriors.

24/7 Staff Guardians.

Staff Elementalists.

Permakit Flamethrower Engineers.

Scepter/Dagger Necromancers.

24/7 Greatsword Mesmers.

24/7 Shortbow Thieves.

If you have a problem with Bearbows, these should also concern you to the same degree.

Also, just because someone rolls a Warrior or Guardian doesn’t always guarantee decent results. And stop pretending you are when you run your kittenty play-your-own bullkitten.

There are bads from every class but a lot more so from guardian and ranger and for a reason.

When was the last time you saw someone justify the use of a rifle by saying “I made a warrior because I wanted to be a rifleman”? Rangers more often than not justify the fact that they play ranger because they wanted to play with bows. The class inherently attracts some of the worst players, and it has been that way since time immemorial in MMORPGs, starting with “huntards” in WoW (and again, a reputation earned not because the class is bad (it’s not), but because it attracts a certain type of undesirable player.).
As for guardians it’s filled to the brim with bads in pugs because the class attracts those who fancy themselves as tank or healers a lot more than the other classes.

When you pug you don’t always want to waste time giving a chance to a community that is almost solely filled with bads (like the ranger and guardian pugs) which makes it just a lot better to kick them than to filter the 1 out of 10 ranger that is any sort of decent.

Nikaido.3457:

“huntards”

Lolz. I want this as a title.

Adam’s cat kittens me, yours doesn’t.

I guess rangers are also hated because they can’t control their pets…

I shall also repost the video featuring the best ranger I know. He plays melee and has a lot of swords with different skins and sigils :>

Lul. Who’s dat guy? Looks fabulous.
Anyway… yeah, many don’t want to micromanage their pets all the time and leave it to the mercy of mobs and themselves, without realising how much dps they lose and how easily you can handle them – with some attention and a lot of love. I mean, the pet’s ai is borked and yet you can keep it alive for all fights in normal dungeons but a couple (ughhhh ta f/f); imagine what they could do if anet fixed the ai…
Being lazy and letting the pet misbehave is indeed a big part of being a bad ranger.

Maybe 3rd time is indeed the charm. Again, I said longbow is not a bad dps weapon. I never said it’s a good weapon to use in groups because of the already mentioned lack of buffs and ruining of stacks. Somebody said a longbow ranger does bad dps and I tried to refute that with some very crude math. I am aware of the slight skew with such a basic approach but factoring the vuln and other dps boosts is too much of a time waste.
Stop saying staff ele is useless/bad. It’s not. It can still stack around 9 might and long fury solo. If they use water that’s a whole different issue.

robertul.3679:

Maybe 3rd time is indeed the charm. Again, I said longbow is not a bad dps weapon. I never said it’s a good weapon to use in groups because of the already mentioned lack of buffs and ruining of stacks. Somebody said a longbow ranger does bad dps and I tried to refute that with some very crude math. I am aware of the slight skew with such a basic approach but factoring the vuln and other dps boosts is too much of a time waste.

Perhaps 3rd time is the charm.

In the end, it comes down to a mincing of words, then. To some people, having 25% less DPS than a person who has the same profession is bad DPS. To some it isn’t. And for others, having 10% less DPS than someone of the same profession is bad, and to some it isn’t.

Here’s the bottom line: If a longbow/bear ranger joined your dungeon and fought all bosses at max range, would you want to party again with that player? If you found that out of the last 5 rangers that joined your parties, 4 of them were bearbow rangers that did the exact same thing, would your propensity to invite more rangers stay the same or go down?

deSade.9437:

maxinion.8396:

Guys, I cried a little tonight.

I found a ranger, in an acp3 pug, running spotter, frost spirit, and sword.

I never thought I would live to see the day. Was honestly so stunned irl that I downed against some gravelings.

It can happen!

You kinda boosted my self esteem. I’ll feel like a living, walking, talking miracle from now on.

I’m always happy to boost your self esteem, deSade~

Omg maxinion. That sounds like such a glorious moment to just stand there and completely forget about your surroundings. Nothing in that moment matters except for the fact that there is a ranger, in YOUR pug group, that isn’t an inept bearbow soccermom.

Humina humina humina.

Purple Miku.7032:

Omg maxinion. That sounds like such a glorious moment to just stand there and completely forget about your surroundings. Nothing in that moment matters except for the fact that there is a ranger, in YOUR pug group, that isn’t an inept bearbow soccermom.

Humina humina humina.

Exactly this.

The kicker? Less than 2k AP as well.

Mind brain blown, yep.
This is how the guyz I play with feel when they have to deal with my huntard awesomeness.
Yeah, I love making jokes…
/sob

A well played ranger is an excellent addition to any party.

Some people don’t appreciate / can’t tell the difference. Others will exclaim their surprise when you actually have spotter / frost spirit / sword.

It is an excellent party filter.

My “ideal” group is:
Ele(dps and might stacking)
Guardian(reflect/aegis/blinds)
War(banner holders)
Ranger(spotter/frost spirit)
Thief(more blinds, dps,skipping)
Mesmer can replace the guardian for reflects, and the thief for stealth/skipping if needed. Engie can replace the ele for might stacking and the thief for stealth if needed. (and yes that means a good engie or mesmer can fix big holes in class comp)

My point is that rangers provide a group wide dps increase that can’t be replaced by other classes. You don’t lose much by not having one, but when it comes down to it you are usually better off with a good ranger than just having redundant wars or guardians.

notabot.3497:

Engie can replace the ele for might stacking and the thief for stealth if needed.

so you want to replace best dps in game for mediocre engi? …

why ppl don’t like rangers? because 99% of them:
longbow
bear
2-3 signets
spam point blank on cd
not providing buffs/not taking buffs
cleric/ptv gear
dont know how to dodge (cuz they like to stand @1200+)

that’s why ppl don’t like rangers. take sword in mh, summon spirits, make proper build and you are welcomed in almost any party.

Enaretos.8079:

Adam’s cat kittens me, yours doesn’t.

I guess rangers are also hated because they can’t control their pets…

My pet was running along just fine, maybe dodge like I did next time?

Adam.4103:

Enaretos.8079:

Adam’s cat kittens me, yours doesn’t.

I guess rangers are also hated because they can’t control their pets…

My pet was running along just fine, maybe dodge like I did next time?

Your dodging was exactly the problem : your pet started running a tad faster and aligned me with the deadeye’s shot :’(

OneManArmy.9732:

notabot.3497:

Engie can replace the ele for might stacking and the thief for stealth if needed.

so you want to replace best dps in game for mediocre engi? …

Try reading before coming off like an idiot. Engies CAN replace the ele or thief IF needed. As in you are missing either one, engie is flexible enough to fill the role. They can even fill both roles if you don’t have either. In an ideal run you don’t need the engie (well its actually wanted in underwater HotW paths to make the final boss take less time).

notabot.3497:

OneManArmy.9732:

notabot.3497:

Engie can replace the ele for might stacking and the thief for stealth if needed.

so you want to replace best dps in game for mediocre engi? …

bla bla bla

engi? dps? instead of ele/thief? ahahaahaha. why engi or not for examaple necro? power necro is good as engi. ahahaah. i dont want to argue about that. YMMD, ty.

/facepalm

Necros have never been needed in dungeons. Ever since the removal of the internal CD on Sundering Strikes, Engis have gone the way of the Necros. The big thing Engis can do is maintain perma 25 vuln on bosses. But now, with a 30/30/0/0/10 thief and an Ele with 25 in Air, you can maintain 80-90% uptime on 25 vuln on bosses (depending on how many points the Ele goes into Fire for condi duration) , just by alternating Fiery Rushes. So 1 thief + 1 ele in the group makes an Engi obsolete. Same with 2 eles and no thief.

It’s actually a comparison, since while necros are probably equal or even greater in response to an engie to the role of vuln stacking/DPS, they cover it up with the number of blast finishers and a fire and smoke field in a singular kit. That’s just my 2c, though.

Edit 2: Given changes in FGS rush code , would it make engineers much more valuable in boon stacking, or not?
‘course, that’s the problem with engies – composition wise, their role as a multi-tool is okay to round out groups, but they aren’t that needed in max-speed compositions.

Advent Leader.1083:

Edit 2: Given changes in FGS rush code , would it make engineers much more valuable in boon stacking, or not?

“boon stacking” consists of might and fury stacking, since those are the only 2 which matter (besides aegis, but neither ele nor engi can give that). and ele is better at stacking both those. so engi is still useless. both engi and necro have gone the way of the dinosaurs.

Bleh, I misworded. Should be vuln, not boon stacking.

FGS means engi is also useless for vuln stacking. if you’re talking about “if FGS gets changed, will engi be useful again,” I’m not going to answer that. Anet has said multiple times that FGS is working as intended. if they do give in to the casuals and change it, Anet will also have banned dodging and deleted zerk gear, so ill be playing Wildstar instead.

Iris Ng.9845:

Incoming xquared!!!

Yeah apart from the fact that Longbow Warriors provide more with fire fields and blast finishers and Scepter Dagger Eles provide tremendously more DPS and group utility, you seem to make a good point. You’re so clever!

DiamondMeteor.8345:

Iris Ng.9845:

Incoming xquared!!!

Yeah apart from the fact that Longbow Warriors provide more with fire fields and blast finishers and Scepter Dagger Eles provide tremendously more DPS and group utility, you seem to make a good point. You’re so clever!

I’m surprised that xquared missed his chance to shine. Here you are, saying “scepter/dagger eles provide tremendously more DPS -” simply means you haven’t played the class to the fullest potential at all. And to prove that staff ele provides both the highest DPS plus all the toys (for other party members)…

http://youtu.be/gnPui3MAx8Q

By the ways, why would you think 2 eles are needed for a high-DPS group?

I dunno if you were there or heard about it, iris (probably not, since you seem to like fracs more than dungeons with me ), but we 4x fgs blinked that destroyer for a faster kill than in that vid you linked. that’s why you need 2 eles. and even if you dont blink + fgs, it helps that 1 ele gives perma fire field with lava font and the other blasts with lh.

(not that id ever use fgs there again, since using it there meant ee didnt have it for alpha’s final appearance.)

OneManArmy.9732:

notabot.3497:

OneManArmy.9732:

notabot.3497:

Engie can replace the ele for might stacking and the thief for stealth if needed.

so you want to replace best dps in game for mediocre engi? …

bla bla bla

engi? dps? instead of ele/thief? ahahaahaha. why engi or not for examaple necro? power necro is good as engi. ahahaah. i dont want to argue about that. YMMD, ty.

If you need might stacking and don’t have an ele: Bam an engie can fill in. If you need thief stealth: Bam, and engie can fill in. Is it ideal? no, nowhere did I say it was. I also never said it was best dps, if you are missing the ele obv you are.

Hell in a group missing both an ele AND a thief an engie is probably what you want. esp compared to just stacking more wars and guards which is what most pugs do.

I think you mean new or poor Rangers aren’t respected in dungeouns.
A good Ranger is a very good addition, we aren’t meant to be tanky in this game or face-roll like we could in GW1.
Rangers are a support, back line, crowd control class in GW2.
Stick a good spirit Ranger on the back row and watch your enemies burn.

Renn.8241:

Rangers are a support, back line, crowd control class in GW2.
Stick a good spirit Ranger on the back row and watch your enemies burn.

Put a sword/warhorn on that good spirit Ranger, throw him on the front row and watch your enemies burn FASTER.

Okay, stop me if I’m saying something people have already stated, but I have my own opinions on Rangers. And I have to address an issue with the OP.

1) what you played back on Guild Wars didn’t matter, the gameplay is entirely different, so you have not really been playing a Ranger for 8 years, more like a bit under 2. I’m not trying to diminish what you’ve done, but bear this in mind.

2) the fact of the matter is, Ranger is just a subpar Dungeoneering class. Do not get me wrong, Ranger is not a bad CLASS. It excels in plenty of fields, but Dungeons just aren’t one of them, for one reason or another. So even if you’re an amazing Ranger, an equally well played Guardian or Warrior is probably going to outperform you unless you have a VERY specific build, and therefore people are going to want them over you. And the vast majority of Rangers I’ve met in Dungeons, sadly just go for a very bland and basic “Spam Longbow attacks, never move from your position, and have your pet aggro mobs that no one wanted to have drawn in”. There are about 3 exceptions I’ve met, but even though they were wonderful players, it doesn’t change the fact that I cringe when I see them join our party from LFG.

Now don’t get me wrong, I’m always hesitant to let a Ranger into my party, but I will NOT boot them, unless they have proven they’re a jerk, terrible player, doesn’t follow instructions, or any combination of the three. (I actually used to do weekly dungeons with at least three Rangers, who know who they are if they see this post, and it rarely ended without us being wiped at least three times, and they were all wonderful people, followed instructions, AND, outside of Dungeons, actually did pretty well if not amazingly well in PvE)

3) this is a personal issue, but you saying how great of a Ranger you are, makes the warning meter in my head go off. I’m not saying you’re lying and I’m not saying you’re blowing smoke, but in my experience, it tends to be the people who brag the most who tend to perform the worst, no matter the scenario.

4) I don’t know how much gold you have, but if you are swapping your skills properly for each dungeon group, you must have a LOT of excess Gold, or you’re just flat-out not really optimized for the role you’re switching to with these new skills. To really optimize for a new role, you don’t just swap a weapon and change your 6-0 skills, you need to re-gear and get new armor and weapon stats.

And yes, there are a lot of people who are badly playing other classes, but the issue I see is… well, that I don’t see them nearly as often in Dungeons as I do a terribly played Ranger. It’s no offense to the group of people who actually DO play it well and are good team players, but it really doesn’t help the group as a whole.

And before you ask, yes, I have a Ranger, but no, I really don’t even intend to get her into Dungeons. I have a two different Warriors, a Thief, and a Mesmer if I ever want to Dungeoneer, all at 80 and properly geared.

Actually many max dps speed clear parties do include rangers, because spotter and frost spirit are jus that good. If you build it right, there is no reason not to bring a ranger. See the Max DPS thread for more discussion.

clint.5681:

Start your own groups

The issue is as soon as a ranger icon is seen, people wont join it. I don’t think it matters if he’s the one starting the group or not lol