Guild Wars 2

Illuminerdi.9153:

oxtred.7658:

Bingo!

Won’t bother giving a rational answer as this is just a " qq those guys are elitists because they can duo a path and they wear a more offensive gear than me/ use the game mechanics like stealth to kill respawning mobs"

Please. Stop.

I said “glitch” and “gaming the system” – I never said people couldn’t use legit game mechanics to duo/solo. If someone can stealth their way to victory, good for them.

BUT: as far as I know when players leave combat mobs are supposed to regen, so unless ANet has stated otherwise my assumption is that leaving combat and a mob not regenerating is a “glitch”, hence why I’m pretty certain that 90% of all “solos” are using glitches to bypass the expectation that they will be handled by a group.

Belka is a stationary boss with ranged attacks. What does that means? It means she’ll try to reach you, even if you’re out of combat, for a few seconds, before resetting. That’s oversight from anet’s part. Anyway, guess what? You can still regen your health by hiding yourself behind the pillars here ( and I’m sure they’re here for that one reason), and that’s how I do it outside of timed runs. They wouldn’t allow people to take a breath behind those pillars ( especially for a boss that negates ranged dps with a 25% uptime on reflects) if they didn’t want them to reset their health from time to time.

Talyn.3295:

I don’t record my runs. Even if I did, I don’t have to prove anything to you.

No, but you also have lost credibility with me (and possibly other people reading) when trying to maintain your position that solos are not based on exploits.

I don’t even see how this came to be about solos – I don’t care about solos or duos. If people want to solo/duo a dungeon and have the time to learn how or figure out how good for them

All I want is to be able to play casually, watch the kitten cutscenes, and let other people do the same thing without being monetarily penalized because the reward system is heavily imbalanced in favor of people utilizing exploits as opposed to those of us who would actually like to play the game the way it was intended. It feels wildly unfair (to me) that someone who is doing something that relies on exploits gets rewarded for it.

It bothers the hell out of me that I’m expected to know the (very specific) method for how to “run” a dungeon before going in by virtually every pug I get into.

And frankly, now that I’ve had an extensive discussion with some of the people here, it scares the crap out of me that new players would need to come here for advice on how to do dungeons, because I shudder to think of how some people here might respond to innocent questions from people who are just trying to learn the game.

Yeah some of the people are probably really nice but there’s apparently just as many people who will rush to insult you or call you a troll. Cheers, indeed…

Funny, if i take a comment on a spammer i got banned for a week in 2 minutes, but this guy still rambling and insulting others for hours now. gg

But on topic.
@OP
Type /age in the game and tell us the results please.

Play casually, and post your own lfg. You didn’t have an “extensive discussion” with any of us, and the dungeon community is really helpful for newcomers, trust it or not. You’re just rambling about idiot facts ( I’m slower than others, but I should get the same rewards, so we can delete any idea of progression in this game) and when we prove you wrong, you just repeat the same false arguments we’re hearing for two years. We already prove wrong this kind of posts for countless times, and there’s still 2 or 3 per weeks, because you’re stuck in your narrowed mindset where eveything non perfectly optimal isn’t close to viable. Play with like minded people, and enjoy spending time in a dungeon, meanwhile some people will try to push their time, because that’s what their enjoy. You’re so inexperienced with the game you refer to usual mechanics as “exploits”, and you refuse to learn anything.

tl;dr: we’ll help those who seeks help, not those fighting for their playstyle to be superior.

oxtred.7658:

Belka is a stationary boss with ranged attacks. What does that means? It means she’ll try to reach you, even if you’re out of combat, for a few seconds, before resetting. That’s oversight from anet’s part. Anyway, guess what? You can still regen your health by hiding yourself behind the pillars here ( and I’m sure they’re here for that one reason), and that’s how I do it outside of timed runs. They wouldn’t allow people to take a breath behind those pillars ( especially for a boss that negates ranged dps with a 25% uptime on reflects) if they didn’t want them to reset their health from time to time.

And that’s fine – if that is how ANet intended the encounter to occur, and people are doing that, bully for them.

If people are subverting ANet’s intended design and profiting from that, it’s generally called an exploit in most other scenarios.

“I just discovered a loophole that allows me to buy an item from one merchant and resell it back for higher than I paid for it! Time to profit!”

That was probably not the intention – buying large quantities of that item and then reselling them is an exploit. Everyone knows this. You might not get banned for it because ANet might say “whoops, our bad – we’ve fixed it now but you can keep the money” but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t always an exploit.

But again – see one of my more recent posts; I don’t give a kitten about solos/duos. I will never do a solo/duo, I don’t care if other people do them, and despite what some of you apparently think, I’m not in the slightest way jealous that other people do them. It wasn’t even on my radar before this. Zero kittens have been given.

All I care about and the only reason I started this post was because I feel that the current dungeon rewards system is so heavily imbalanced that it has taken the fun out of dungeons and dungeon runs. I love dungeon runs in other MMOs – grab a pug, murder your way through the dungeon, kill the boss(es), collect loot, repeat. That is my heroin; but in GW2 I find it not fun because I don’t like doing speedruns. Other people can do them, fine; but a rewards system that encourages everyone to do them is toxic and bad, and has created a community where that is the only option, leaving people like me shut out, and IMO ultimately hurting GW2 since excluding people is bad for any MMO.

Dalanor.5387:

Funny, if i take a comment on a spammer i got banned for a week in 2 minutes, but this guy still rambling and insulting others for hours now. gg

But on topic.
@OP
Type /age in the game and tell us the results please.

I’m 33.

Also, please quote me to show where I directly insulted someone. I’m genuinely curious what you and others here think constitutes an insult, because clearly my normal standards for this are (possibly?) incorrect.

I think the worst thing I said was making vague references to hostile groups I’ve been with in pugs as “jerks”, but I don’t have the time to reread everything I’ve typed to make sure nobody could possibly qq over anything I said anywhere.

EDIT: also, I can easily point out about 9 or 10 posts here where people have directly or indirectly referred to me as “idiot” or “whining”, but I’m supposedly the one who is “insulting”?

oxtred.7658:

tl;dr: we’ll help those who seeks help, not those fighting for their playstyle to be superior.

I’m pretty sure I’m fighting for my playstyle to be equal not surperior…

Surbrus.6942:

Oh please. Killing boring enemies with horribly simplified mechanics and terrible AI does not, even in theory provide an obstacle that the party needs to coordinate to overcome. If it did, then dungeon solo and duos would not be a common thing for players in this game to be doing if they are looking for anything near a challenge.

As for why Anet put horribly boring trash into the dungeon, rather than interesting encounters? That is simply laziness, there is no mysterious hidden meaning behind any of this, it’s just a poorly done job, simple as that. If you want to see how to do trash mobs right, there are examples already mentioned in this thread (mostly to do with Fractals), or you could look at Guild Wars 1 (something we’ve been telling Anet to do all this time).

I remember back when this wasn’t the case. When the game was first released, the hardest parts of the dungeons weren’t the bosses, but the elites that littered the paths. Experienced players were calling targets against specific enemy types and even had specific strategies against them.

What made these so much more difficult was how hard it is to keep track of multiple things at once. Groups of enemies employ multiple strategies simultaneously, and can employ additional tactics beyond what any single boss can do. In AC alone we had to dodge the burrower, watch for teammates to get pinned by the scavenger, an stun the breeder all at the same time.

This was back when dungeons were run at their appropriate level, and the combination of LoS stack + spam blinds + pure DPS hadn’t been unlocked yet. Once players learned this, all of the elites that used to provide a challenge became routine and rather boring.

Several simple mobs can act as one complex and interesting one, and it would be easier to create a more balanced experience by multiple simpler mobs than with a big complex one. If not for the pratfalls above (vastly multiplied damage via cleave, easy grouping via LoS stacking, rendered nearly useless with blinds, etc), “trash mobs” would be the best way to create engaging experiences in the game. I say “engaging” since if you make things too hard, then you’ll just get class discrimination.

@OP: You’re not alone in this. The idea of balancing the reward systems in dungeons to be equally rewarding to both full skips and clear alls has been around for years now. It is one of those things that everyone kind of wants in theory, since it will help to resolve some issues around balancing rewards and the economy and also encourage diversity in playstyle, but in practice no one can agree on how to do it. The issue being that Anet doesn’t know how to do this, either, which has resulted in them not doing anything at all. The other issue being that the raw hostility of elitists prevents any meaningful discussion from taking place.

oxtred.7658:

Play casually, and post your own lfg. You didn’t have an “extensive discussion” with any of us, and the dungeon community is really helpful for newcomers, trust it or not.

Well I tried to start a discussion and was subsequently shouted down and insulted by various members of this forum, so no, I didn’t get to have that discussion, much as I genuinely wanted to.

THIS is the biggest irony here. I love GW2. I put my heart and soul into this game in more ways than most of you will ever know, and I genuinely want to make it better and more fun for everyone and I came here with the simple goal of trying to start a discussion about that and have subsequently been ridiculed and insulted.

I don’t give a crap whether or not anyone thinks I’m trying to be a martyr, but if anyone honestly thinks that treating people with good intentions (however naive or misguided) this way is good for this community they’re shooting themself in the foot…

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I remember back when this wasn’t the case. When the game was first released, the hardest parts of the dungeons weren’t the bosses, but the elites that littered the paths. Experienced players were calling targets against specific enemy types and even had specific strategies against them.

What made these so much more difficult was how hard it is to keep track of multiple things at once. Groups of enemies employ multiple strategies simultaneously, and can employ additional tactics beyond what any single boss can do. In AC alone we had to dodge the burrower, watch for teammates to get pinned by the scavenger, an stun the breeder all at the same time.

This was back when dungeons were run at their appropriate level, and the combination of LoS stack + spam blinds + pure DPS hadn’t been unlocked yet. Once players learned this, all of the elites that used to provide a challenge became routine and rather boring.

Several simple mobs can act as one complex and interesting one, and it would be easier to create a more balanced experience by multiple simpler mobs than with a big complex one. If not for the pratfalls above (vastly multiplied damage via cleave, easy grouping via LoS stacking, rendered nearly useless with blinds, etc), “trash mobs” would be the best way to create engaging experiences in the game. I say “engaging” since if you make things too hard, then you’ll just get class discrimination.

@OP: You’re not alone in this. The idea of balancing the reward systems in dungeons to be equally rewarding to both full skips and clear alls has been around for years now. It is one of those things that everyone kind of wants in theory, since it will help to resolve some issues around balancing rewards and the economy and also encourage diversity in playstyle, but in practice no one can agree on how to do it. The issue being that Anet doesn’t know how to do this, either, which has resulted in them not doing anything at all. The other issue being that the raw hostility of elitists prevents any meaningful discussion from taking place.

Thank you so much, you seriously just made my day in a way you can’t possibly ever know… Faith in humanity restored

Illuminerdi.9153:

But on topic.
@OP
Type /age in the game and tell us the results please.

Ingame. Reading is an exploit it seems …
The /age commands shows your overall playtime in GW2.

Umm so what you basically want is no more running difficult dungeons to get different awards… you just want to run easy dungeons and get the same reward as people who dedicated their time and effort to learn and master difficult dungeons as well as reduce incentives to run more than few fast/short dungeons to kill dungeon community all together. Furthermore kill everything for tokens.

You know what will happen then? There will be even more LFG for zerker+meta+speed+AP only so that people can finish dungeons even faster and unpopular dungeons will be completely abandoned. And there will be more kicking as well as more griefing. Just because you like to do same dungeon and same story with 5+ characters doesn’t mean everyone has to agree with you. For instance I doubt you have the skill to do speed dungeon tours and you are simply venting your frustration on this forum.

Illuminerdi.9153:

Thank you so much, you seriously just made my day in a way you can’t possibly ever know… Faith in humanity restored

You say that your faith in humanity is restored when someone agrees with you, but act confused when other people are saying that you are insulting people who do not agree with you? You outright ignore arguments that shut down your opinion, or “misunderstand” them. Either you somehow are missing all of this and just aren’t that great at communication, or this is some epic troll you are trying to pull off? If its trolling, you’re doing a bad job at it.

Regardless of the OP many girouete like post i still think he got a point speedrunning is way to rewarding and encourage people to skip content in the sake of moneymaking. Money should come both way even when not speedrunning and skipping stuff shoulnt be more viable moneywise and effectivenesswise in a run then killing it, at best it should be equaly viable. It should not be a choice of ‘’will i make more money or token by skiping or not’’ but rather of ‘’will my life be easier if i skip or not’’ because the facts are dungeon mobs drop nothing usefull least of all token and are in many way simply put useless. What about making that any material lootbag found on regular mob gives 3 or 2 token of the actual dungeon so to encourage killing them?

hybrid.5027:

1. “You dont have the option to watch cut scene in a speed run your first time.”

Just saw this post – you misinterpreted what I said there. I didn’t mean that the cutscene was unskippable, I meant that nobody ever watches the cutscenes because everyone always speedruns; groups that don’t speedrun account for a fraction of a fraction of the overall groups that play dungeons in GW2, meaning that without investing a lot of time and energy into finding like minded people, most people’s first and last experience with dungeons will probably be speedrunning, where nobody will be ok with someone watching the cutscenes.

And apparently “glitcher”/“exploiter” is some kind of dirty word around here?

So people are doing it, but refuse to call a spade a spade, and would rather pretend that what they are doing is not an exploit, hiding behind a veneer of authenticity simply because ANet hasn’t banned the practice yet? Got it.

The funny thing is that most other speedrunners embrace the ideas of glitching and exploiting. They consider discovery and effective use of them a mark of pride and proudly tout their extensive knowledge of glitches and exploits to be better speedrunners…

Surbrus.6942:

Illuminerdi.9153:

Thank you so much, you seriously just made my day in a way you can’t possibly ever know… Faith in humanity restored

You say that your faith in humanity is restored when someone agrees with you, but act confused when other people are saying that you are insulting people who do not agree with you? You outright ignore arguments that shut down your opinion, or “misunderstand” them. Either you somehow are missing all of this and just aren’t that great at communication, or this is some epic troll you are trying to pull off? If its trolling, you’re doing a bad job at it.

Him agreeing with me had nothing to do with it, actually. I’m not going to say any more about it or why, just that some of the things he said made me very happy, no part of which of which was because he agreed with me.

Anyway, while you do have some interesting ideas, I have some criticisms.

#1: The problem with having a universally applicable tokens is that it removes all need to run any but the most grind-able and easy dungeons. Dungeon specific tokens work to mandate diversity in play, meaning that nearly all dungeons are being run for their tokens. Diversity in play in these dungeons has many positives, such as allowing mixing new players with experienced players, as well as ensuring that these dungeons are run on a regular enough basis that it wouldn’t be too difficult to find/form a random group at any given time.

Parts 2 and 3 are tied together, so I’ll have to tackle both of these: There was an issue when the game first released where players would only kill the first boss, then exit the dungeon. This was because the rewards were spaced so that it was more profitable to cut out the dungeon and do something else than it was to play to completion. The current product of speed running you see now is considered the lesser of two evils: by end-stacking rewards, players are encourage to at least play to completion.

Though the idea for #2 and #3 are noble, by making rewards highly dependent on specific bosses or landmarks, we risk unleashing the beast we caged a long time ago. Any balancing of rewards will have to either be rewarded at the end, or heavily stacked toward finishing the dungeon, so that no part of a dungeon path will ever be more efficient than the dungeon as a whole.

I reiterate: no one knows how to go about doing this. That includes myself. If I were to take a note from other games, they have a proportional rewarded system where there would be various statistics taken and bonus goals that awarded points at the end of a dungeon, and the dungeon awards would be based upon this scoring system. I.E. there is 20 tokens at the end for merely completing the path, but then based on the percentage of non-respawning mobs killed, alongside of optional objectives and hidden events, there would be additional awards.

Without hard metrics (some of which aren’t even available to anet), it can’t get more specific than that.

Dalanor.5387:

Illuminerdi.9153:

But on topic.
@OP
Type /age in the game and tell us the results please.

Ingame. Reading is an exploit it seems …
The /age commands shows your overall playtime in GW2.

Honestly, I thought you were just being rude and were referencing some kind imaginary command that displays a player’s age.

I’ve probably got about 200 hours logged in the game total. I am by no means some kind of elite super-player.

I am…a casual player! Oh the horror! How can he possibly have a legitimate opinion! Come back when you’ve sunk 10,000 hours into the game and been divorced because you missed the birth of your children for a Teq Taxi!

Hence why I’d like to see dungeon rewards more fairly distributed and less focused on speedruns. I don’t want to learn speedruns, I don’t want to do them. I want to pug a dungeon and not have to be “trained” beforehand on all the stack points or what enemies to skip or how to exploit the event to end it right after it starts. I don’t want to have to spend what precious little time I have to play the game in the first place trying to find other people who want to “casual” the dungeon, because 99% of the people in LFG are all speedrunners, and worst of all, I don’t want my “inefficient” method of play to mean that it takes me 10x as long to get the rewards as it does someone who is exploiting the intended design. I don’t care if ANet ever shuts those people down or not – what I do care about is the fact that they’re getting rewards faster, which has encouraged an entire community of people to behave as they are, killing diverse play styles and ruining this section of the game for the rest of us.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Anyway, while you do have some interesting ideas, I have some criticisms.

#1: The problem with having a universally applicable tokens is that it removes all need to run any but the most grind-able and easy dungeons. Dungeon specific tokens work to mandate diversity in play, meaning that nearly all dungeons are being run for their tokens. Diversity in play in these dungeons has many positives, such as allowing mixing new players with experienced players, as well as ensuring that these dungeons are run on a regular enough basis that it wouldn’t be too difficult to find/form a random group at any given time.

Parts 2 and 3 are tied together, so I’ll have to tackle both of these: There was an issue when the game first released where players would only kill the first boss, then exit the dungeon. This was because the rewards were spaced so that it was more profitable to cut out the dungeon and do something else than it was to play to completion. The current product of speed running you see now is considered the lesser of two evils: by end-stacking rewards, players are encourage to at least play to completion.

Though the idea for #2 and #3 are noble, by making rewards highly dependent on specific bosses or landmarks, we risk unleashing the beast we caged a long time ago. Any balancing of rewards will have to either be rewarded at the end, or heavily stacked toward finishing the dungeon, so that no part of a dungeon path will ever be more efficient than the dungeon as a whole. Otherwise, we risk unleashing the beast we caged a long time ago.

I reiterate: no one knows how to go about doing this. That includes myself. If I were to take a note from other games, they have a proportional rewarded system where there would be various statistics taken and bonus goals that awarded points at the end of a dungeon, and the dungeon awards would be based upon this scoring system. I.E. there is 20 tokens at the end for merely completing the path, but then based on the percentage of non-respawning mobs killed, alongside of optional objectives and hidden events, there would be additional awards.

Without hard metrics (some of which aren’t even available to anet), it can’t get more specific than that.

I’m not really tied to the idea of generic tokens – I thought the community would get behind the idea but most people seem to dislike them, feeling that it would just lead to farming or running specific dungeons. I don’t think that is the case and/or that you can really prevent that regardless, I think that generic tokens just frees people up to choose content based on what they have or haven’t done yet. Then again, I also believe that players should only have to run through a dungeon 10 times or less to get a full set from it, so in my world there isn’t really a lot of farming anyway because the need to do everything in the most optimized fashion is irrelevant. People farm and speedrun because things take forever; if things stop taking forever, they don’t really care as much whether or not one path is much faster/better than another. Generic tokens would mean that someone who wants a single set of CoF gear could buy one after doing every dungeon once. They might not have enough tokens to buy every other dungeon set, but they can at least get one complete set. Meanwhile, someone who wants all the sets is going to have to farm anyway, so you might as well let them farm where they want and how they want. I find it fascinating that people are arguing against this because it means people will farm, when isn’t that what they’re already doing?

Farming is unrelated to skiping it just happen skiping is the easy way to make stuff faster right now. I say give all mobs material bag in the dungeon a 1 to 3 token drop per bag opened and people will start considering killing to especialy if they can get out with 15 to 30 more token then normal

Illuminerdi.9153:

I am…a casual player! Oh the horror! How can he possibly have a legitimate opinion! Come back when you’ve sunk 10,000 hours into the game and been divorced because you missed the birth of your children for a Teq Taxi!

Do you still wonder why we were saying that you’re throwing insults around? Right here you are accusing knowledgeable dungeon runners here of being obsessive and failures at life without any provocation.

[I want to play how I want, but I am unwilling to look for like minded people]

Then join a guild, play with friends. Pugs are not the end all be all, they are option of last resort. Most people who play seriously, and many people who play casually have taken the time to find people they want to play with, this is how MMO’s are supposed to be played.

I don’t care if ANet ever shuts those people down or not – what I do care about is the fact that they’re getting rewards faster, which has encouraged an entire community of people to behave as they are, killing diverse play styles and ruining this section of the game for the rest of us.

We’ve already determined that you don’t care about other people, and that you only care about yourself. We have already determined that you are jealous that players who put in the time and effort to master the content can get rewards faster than you. This is (one of the reasons) why no one is taking you seriously.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Anyway, while you do have some interesting ideas, I have some criticisms.

Parts 2 and 3 are tied together, so I’ll have to tackle both of these: There was an issue when the game first released where players would only kill the first boss, then exit the dungeon. This was because the rewards were spaced so that it was more profitable to cut out the dungeon and do something else than it was to play to completion. The current product of speed running you see now is considered the lesser of two evils: by end-stacking rewards, players are encourage to at least play to completion.

Though the idea for #2 and #3 are noble, by making rewards highly dependent on specific bosses or landmarks, we risk unleashing the beast we caged a long time ago. Any balancing of rewards will have to either be rewarded at the end, or heavily stacked toward finishing the dungeon, so that no part of a dungeon path will ever be more efficient than the dungeon as a whole.

I reiterate: no one knows how to go about doing this. That includes myself. If I were to take a note from other games, they have a proportional rewarded system where there would be various statistics taken and bonus goals that awarded points at the end of a dungeon, and the dungeon awards would be based upon this scoring system. I.E. there is 20 tokens at the end for merely completing the path, but then based on the percentage of non-respawning mobs killed, alongside of optional objectives and hidden events, there would be additional awards.

Without hard metrics (some of which aren’t even available to anet), it can’t get more specific than that.

I’m curious if you read about my idea for making rewards increase the longer a run takes; the idea being that if you kill the first boss or a few trash mobs you get chump change. This prevent people from running in, farming up early content, then leaving before later content.

But, by making the multiplier dependent on how many bosses/trash mobs the team killed, it also means that you can’t bypass that stuff either and just kill the bosses, or else your reward will still be chump change.

For example:

Let’s say you have a boon that you get when you kill a dungeon enemy. Trash mobs give you 1 stack of the boon and bosses give you 5 stacks. For the sake of the example imagine that there is no upper limit to number of stacks you can have on this boon. The boon is wiped when the dungeon is reset, but persists between death.

If you speedrun the dungeon killing only bosses and necessary enemies, you wind up with, say, 50 stacks at the end. Meanwhile, if you finish the dungeon killing most of the trash and the bosses, you wind up with 500 stacks.

Now you weight the rewards so that someone with 50 boon stacks killing a trash mob has a 20% chance for 1 token drop, but someone with 500 stacks has a 70% chance of a 2 token drop. Killing a boss when you have 50 stacks gets you 5 guaranteed tokens and a 20% chance of 3-5 extra tokens to drop. Killing a boss with 500 stacks gets you 20 guaranteed tokens and a 70% chance of 5-10 extra tokens.

Make sure nobody finds a way to quickly stack this boon up to 500 and you have a weighted system: all rewards are proportional to the time spent in the dungeon, without actually being based on “time” (otherwise people would just idle) – you have to kill enemies to get the boon, so you have to actively play to stack it, and being stacked per player means that people can’t just jump into existing teams and reap the rewards.

I’m curious what your take on this is and whether or not you can see ways this would be (heavily) exploited or otherwise still discouraging people from playing sections of content?

EDIT: also don’t focus on the exact numbers I put in there – I wasn’t being specific and I’d need to get out a calculator to determine what “good” numbers would be for a system like this, the idea is just to show how your reward curves upwards the more content you do so rewards stop being a race between time and content, freeing people up to choose whether they want to do a little content and get a little reward, or a lot of content and a lot of reward. The overall rate of reward would be equal between different play styles – everyone would earn tokens at (approximately) the same rate.

Illuminerdi.9153:

groups that don’t speedrun account for a fraction of a fraction of the overall groups that play dungeons in GW2, meaning that without investing a lot of time and energy into finding like minded people, most people’s first and last experience with dungeons will probably be speedrunning, where nobody will be ok with someone watching the cutscenes.

alright, so this is where you’re wrong. Go to the LFG. Start an Arah p3 group and put “anyone welcome, not a speed run” in the advertisement. Your group will fill in 3 minutes or less and you’ll get EXACTLY the type of run you want. You cannot dispute this and it basically runs contrary to the entire premise the OP is based upon. So I would accept your immediately apology for being wrong and spreading misinformation, but I hardly believe you have the intellectual honesty to admit it.

The funny thing is that most other speedrunners embrace the ideas of glitching and exploiting. They consider discovery and effective use of them a mark of pride and proudly tout their extensive knowledge of glitches and exploits to be better speedrunners…

Nintendo can’t ban you for exploiting the Ocarina of Time in a speed run. Anet can ban you in GW2. Thats reason #1 why you don’t understand the difference. Reason #2 is that any scrub can exploit their way through the content in the game, no one looks at that as skillful or something to be proud of. We praise people who show actual playskill, which is why our community looks down on exploits.

I like how nobody care about solution that are proposed to make killing mobs in the dungeon actualy an equaly viable option to speedrunning tells how much people dont care about actualy having multiple options to make money. Are you lazy? Or is it just the current looting system? Because that can be improved

Surbrus.6942:

Illuminerdi.9153:

I am…a casual player! Oh the horror! How can he possibly have a legitimate opinion! Come back when you’ve sunk 10,000 hours into the game and been divorced because you missed the birth of your children for a Teq Taxi!

Do you still wonder why we were saying that you’re throwing insults around? Right here you are accusing knowledgeable dungeon runners here of being obsessive and failures at life without any provocation.

I find it very interesting that you’ve managed to overlook the multitude of insults lobbed my direction and declared that there has not be “any provocation” from the other side directed towards me.

Also, I was using sarcasm to illustrate an extreme/absurd example of someone who might use their “obsessive” “failures at life” to look down on other people.

While I’m not going to pretend that I wasn’t poking at some of the comments I’ve received here, if what I said hurt someone they might need to look at why an absurdist example like that struck a nerve…

Meanwhile, in your post you’ve directly referred to me as uncaring (“don’t care about other people”), selfish (“only care about yourself”), and jealous (“you are jealous”). These are all insults, and pretty direct at that.

Yet somehow, by some miracle, I’m the villain here. That’s some seriously powerful cognitive dissonance you’ve got going on…

Am I a saint? Nope. But I don’t exactly give you and a few other people here the moral high ground here either.

Illuminerdi.9153:

Talyn.3295:

I don’t record my runs. Even if I did, I don’t have to prove anything to you.

No, but you also have lost credibility with me (and possibly other people reading) when trying to maintain your position that solos are not based on exploits.

I don’t even see how this came to be about solos – I don’t care about solos or duos. If people want to solo/duo a dungeon and have the time to learn how or figure out how good for them

All I want is to be able to play casually, watch the kitten cutscenes, and let other people do the same thing without being monetarily penalized because the reward system is heavily imbalanced in favor of people utilizing exploits as opposed to those of us who would actually like to play the game the way it was intended. It feels wildly unfair (to me) that someone who is doing something that relies on exploits gets rewarded for it.

It bothers the hell out of me that I’m expected to know the (very specific) method for how to “run” a dungeon before going in by virtually every pug I get into.

And frankly, now that I’ve had an extensive discussion with some of the people here, it scares the crap out of me that new players would need to come here for advice on how to do dungeons, because I shudder to think of how some people here might respond to innocent questions from people who are just trying to learn the game.

Yeah some of the people are probably really nice but there’s apparently just as many people who will rush to insult you or call you a troll. Cheers, indeed…

Fine with me, you lost credibility with me from your first post. And it just went down hill the more you flip flopped..

Illuminerdi.9153:

As stated on page 1, this is just treating the symptoms of people not wanting to do the boring parts of the dungeons, rather than addressing the cause. Everyone has killed enough simplistic enemies with primitive AI. You are suggestion that (horribly limited) dungeon team resources should be going toward further fiddling with existing dungeons rather than making new dungeons, new more interesting encounters/mechanics and the like.

Anet has already spent more than enough time making minor, pointless changes to the dungeons that they could have produced new dungeons, and/or made more fun encounters with those resources.

He still mark a point the system is penalising people for not doing the instance as intended, there should be more incentive to actualy run it vannila mode Aka rewards.

End reward could indeed as an exemple be based of kill numbers.

Played 200 hours and complain about exploits. Same stuff as every week …
Next please!
/thread

ps: skipping is intended

[quote=4493099;hybrid.5027:]

Talyn.3295:

Illuminerdi.9153:

Talyn.3295:

I don’t record my runs. Even if I did, I don’t have to prove anything to you.

No, but you also have lost credibility with me (and possibly other people reading) when trying to maintain your position that solos are not based on exploits.

I don’t even see how this came to be about solos – I don’t care about solos or duos. If people want to solo/duo a dungeon and have the time to learn how or figure out how good for them

All I want is to be able to play casually, watch the kitten cutscenes, and let other people do the same thing without being monetarily penalized because the reward system is heavily imbalanced in favor of people utilizing exploits as opposed to those of us who would actually like to play the game the way it was intended. It feels wildly unfair (to me) that someone who is doing something that relies on exploits gets rewarded for it.

It bothers the hell out of me that I’m expected to know the (very specific) method for how to “run” a dungeon before going in by virtually every pug I get into.

And frankly, now that I’ve had an extensive discussion with some of the people here, it scares the crap out of me that new players would need to come here for advice on how to do dungeons, because I shudder to think of how some people here might respond to innocent questions from people who are just trying to learn the game.

Yeah some of the people are probably really nice but there’s apparently just as many people who will rush to insult you or call you a troll. Cheers, indeed…

Fine with me, you lost credibility with me from your first post. And it just went down hill the more you flip flopped..

Fantastic. Why didn’t you just leave my thread instead of picking a fight?

You and the rest of this board could have ignored me and my thread would have been buried in a few hours…oh the irony!

Now it’s got a few dozen posts and might hang around for weeks.

Illuminerdi.9153:

I’m not really tied to the idea of generic tokens – I thought the community would get behind the idea but most people seem to dislike them, feeling that it would just lead to farming or running specific dungeons. I don’t think that is the case and/or that you can really prevent that regardless, I think that generic tokens just frees people up to choose content based on what they have or haven’t done yet. Then again, I also believe that players should only have to run through a dungeon 10 times or less to get a full set from it, so in my world there isn’t really a lot of farming anyway because the need to do everything in the most optimized fashion is irrelevant. People farm and speedrun because things take forever; if things stop taking forever, they don’t really care as much whether or not one path is much faster/better than another. Generic tokens would mean that someone who wants a single set of CoF gear could buy one after doing every dungeon once. They might not have enough tokens to buy every other dungeon set, but they can at least get one complete set. Meanwhile, someone who wants all the sets is going to have to farm anyway, so you might as well let them farm where they want and how they want. I find it fascinating that people are arguing against this because it means people will farm, when isn’t that what they’re already doing?

It’s from experience. Technically, all dungeons have a universally awarded token already: gold. It is because of the gold reward that many dungeon paths are grinded frequently. Now, diminishing returns and dungeon specific tokens encourage people to run more than just the optimum paths. Take away the tokens, then there is even less left for neglected paths. The issue isn’t so much people farming as much as it is people farming only one part of the game.

Likewise, the reason why people farm is to amass wealth more than anything. With the gold rewards, people run dungeons to pay for their legendary and ascended gear, and even then the tokens themselves are inevitable gold fodder. Now, you can make a case from here: you can say that since people are just grinding for gold, you can remove all specific tokens and replace them with a global token so players can just play how they want. But, much like diminishing returns, these systems are in place to save the player from themselves: By forcing (to a degree) variable paths, players don’t become inundated with repetitious boredom at nearly the rate that unrestrained free play would, and likewise this promotes more activity in places, letting newer players adventure and learn with more experienced players.

This was actually one of the biggest problems with Phantasy Star Universe. Without some form of mandated diversity, the majority of players in the game would all sit in one lobby while doing one mission over and over again. The end result being a large, expansive and diverse game built for multiple players but with nobody around to help.

EDIT: Can’t believe I forgot this.

As for giving more tokens: that is an option. Tokens can be converted to gold through indirect measures, so something that you can do is make dungeons reward less gold, but give more tokens. Likewise, you could just throw in a direct token to gold converter at the vendors, and then adjust how many tokens each path awards to reflect this.

Though ideally, a player who wants specific armor pieces from dungeons would just run those dungeon paths once a day, then go do something else more interesting. The pacing reduces burnout rate, but also provides incentive to come back again later. If dungeons awarded too many tokens, then players would lose the carrot at the end of the stick too quickly. Still, increasing token rewards is always an option.

kyubi.3620:

I like how nobody care about solution that are proposed to make killing mobs in the dungeon actualy an equaly viable option to speedrunning tells how much people dont care about actualy having multiple options to make money. Are you lazy? Or is it just the current looting system? Because that can be improved

Personally, I think people are either scared that speedrunning is going to be taken away, or they are just plain afraid of change, so it’s easier for them to argue that there shouldn’t be an alternative.

I think that the problem is they’re worried that if speedrunning is taken away, it will increase the amount of time it takes to farm dungeons, when my suggestion is (ultimately) not to take away speedrunning, it’s really a suggestion to increase the level/rate of dungeon rewards for everyone else to take away the allure of speedruns…

So Illuminerdi, since you are so all knowing and so judgmental, did you actually try speed dungeoning, and I mean the real way with ts3 and competent/excellent teammates as well as proper food/rune/gear/sigil with meta builds and optimal rotation and might stacking and vul stacking etc? Or have you just gotten kicked out of another LFG dungeon group for aggroing every mob and calling everyone exploiter?

Illuminerdi.9153:

Talyn.3295:

Illuminerdi.9153:

Talyn.3295:

I don’t record my runs. Even if I did, I don’t have to prove anything to you.

No, but you also have lost credibility with me (and possibly other people reading) when trying to maintain your position that solos are not based on exploits.

I don’t even see how this came to be about solos – I don’t care about solos or duos. If people want to solo/duo a dungeon and have the time to learn how or figure out how good for them

All I want is to be able to play casually, watch the kitten cutscenes, and let other people do the same thing without being monetarily penalized because the reward system is heavily imbalanced in favor of people utilizing exploits as opposed to those of us who would actually like to play the game the way it was intended. It feels wildly unfair (to me) that someone who is doing something that relies on exploits gets rewarded for it.

It bothers the hell out of me that I’m expected to know the (very specific) method for how to “run” a dungeon before going in by virtually every pug I get into.

And frankly, now that I’ve had an extensive discussion with some of the people here, it scares the crap out of me that new players would need to come here for advice on how to do dungeons, because I shudder to think of how some people here might respond to innocent questions from people who are just trying to learn the game.

Yeah some of the people are probably really nice but there’s apparently just as many people who will rush to insult you or call you a troll. Cheers, indeed…

Fine with me, you lost credibility with me from your first post. And it just went down hill the more you flip flopped..

Fantastic. Why didn’t you just leave my thread instead of picking a fight?

You and the rest of this board could have ignored me and my thread would have been buried in a few hours…oh the irony!

Now it’s got a few dozen posts and might hang around for weeks.

Well the thread is good for a laugh, if nothing else. Don’t think your the first to come to the dungeon forms and tell us our play style is wrong and that it needs to be changed to something you want. At the end of the day, you still have the option to play your way, and we still have the option to play our way.

I always find it funny that when a person says “Play as you want” it really means “Play as I want you too”

Nothing stops you from fully clearing a dungeon, if you want to waste time there fine. But as you said 99% of us don’t. Whey should the needs of the few out way the needs of the many?

But yeah, Cheers!

Illuminerdi you should concentrate more on providing ideas then fighting over a topic not everyone here is out to get you and some may even read here can we all please keep this topic constructive? For the speedrunners maybe you guys actualy have and could provide idea yourself as to how to actualy do a promotion of killing things.

Note i did speed run myself but didnt like it. Mainly because i do dongeons for fun and dont accumulate much money i prefer to spvp in the mist

TheFamster.7806:

So Illuminerdi, since you are so all knowing and so judgmental, did you actually try speed dungeoning, and I mean the real way with ts3 and competent/excellent teammates as well as proper food/rune/gear/sigil with meta builds and optimal rotation and might stacking and vul stacking etc? Or have you just gotten kicked out of another LFG dungeon group for aggroing every mob and calling everyone exploiter?

Yep, I have an 80 warrior running full zerk (exotic) gear and I’ve run through CoF about…15 times on P1/P2, as well as plenty of runs through AC and CoE, and just a few misguided runs through CM (I wanted the gear set but CM pugs were incredibly hard to find)

So yes, I’ve done plenty of speedruns, and believe it or not, I’ve never been kicked out of a single one, ever. I’ve been part of a group or two that failed or quit the dungeon because the run fell apart, but I’ve never been kicked. I am an effective L80 warrior who is excellent at what he does and contributes his fair share of dps to the group, and I have not gotten any complaints so far.

I think the worst run I ever had was my very first run through AC – I went in blind with no idea of how dungeons worked. For reference, I joined a group that advertised itself as “casual”, and it was still nothing but skipping enemies and “stack and whack”

I’m bored out of my skull with dungeons and I wish I could watch even a single one of the cutscenes to actually find out what the heck is going on in them. I’ve run CoF more than a dozen times and I honestly have no idea what’s happening on any of its paths. I’ve never even seen that one guy do the thing after the bomb event because I’m always with the group who teleports back to start and sits there waiting for the next WP to unlock.

This is (IMO) stupid – the idea that teleporting to the beginning of the dungeon and waiting around while something (mysterous) happens elsewhere on the map is actually considered “gameplay” is just absurd. This is grinding and I hate it – if I didn’t want the gear or the mats from salvage I would have long ago abandoned dungeons and done something else.

Illuminerdi.9153:

Personally, I think people are either scared that speedrunning is going to be taken away, or they are just plain afraid of change, so it’s easier for them to argue that there shouldn’t be an alternative.

I think that the problem is they’re worried that if speedrunning is taken away, it will increase the amount of time it takes to farm dungeons, when my suggestion is (ultimately) not to take away speedrunning, it’s really a suggestion to increase the level/rate of dungeon rewards for everyone else to take away the allure of speedruns…

You just want more gold with low effort tactics while farming a single path, i get it, all of us get it. Thank you, but we don’t like it.

Illuminerdi.9153:

TheFamster.7806:

So Illuminerdi, since you are so all knowing and so judgmental, did you actually try speed dungeoning, and I mean the real way with ts3 and competent/excellent teammates as well as proper food/rune/gear/sigil with meta builds and optimal rotation and might stacking and vul stacking etc? Or have you just gotten kicked out of another LFG dungeon group for aggroing every mob and calling everyone exploiter?

Yep, I have an 80 warrior running full zerk (exotic) gear and I’ve run through CoF about…15 times on P1/P2, as well as plenty of runs through AC and CoE, and just a few misguided runs through CM (I wanted the gear set but CM pugs were incredibly hard to find)

So yes, I’ve done plenty of speedruns, and believe it or not, I’ve never been kicked out of a single one, ever. I’ve been part of a group or two that failed or quit the dungeon because the run fell apart, but I’ve never been kicked. I am an effective L80 warrior who is excellent at what he does and contributes his fair share of dps to the group, and I have not gotten any complaints so far.

I think the worst run I ever had was my very first run through AC – I went in blind with no idea of how dungeons worked. For reference, I joined a group that advertised itself as “casual”, and it was still nothing but skipping enemies and “stack and whack”

I’m bored out of my skull with dungeons and I wish I could watch even a single one of the cutscenes to actually find out what the heck is going on in them. I’ve run CoF more than a dozen times and I honestly have no idea what’s happening on any of its paths. I’ve never even seen that one guy do the thing after the bomb event because I’m always with the group who teleports back to start and sits there waiting for the next WP to unlock.

This is (IMO) stupid – the idea that teleporting to the beginning of the dungeon and waiting around while something (mysterous) happens elsewhere on the map is actually considered “gameplay” is just absurd. This is grinding and I hate it – if I didn’t want the gear or the mats from salvage I would have long ago abandoned dungeons and done something else.

No you didn’t do enough speedruns. In fact you didn’t do speed runs at all. Im sorry but what you did was a PUG group as well as just casual daily dungeon run. You did not even touch fractal 40+ or Arah paths and you believe you have a clear understanding of how speed dungeon tour works in Gw2? And just because you have “zerker” gear does not mean you are a quality player. In fact since you avoided any runes/sigils that you use, I doubt you have the skill to carry the team let alone being an effective teammate.

Please post on the thread when you have experienced every single dungeon path then we can have a clean and nice discussion. Right now what you did was barely speed running and you have no idea how it works.

Talyn.3295:

I always find it funny that when a person says “Play as you want” it really means “Play as I want you too”

Nothing stops you from fully clearing a dungeon, if you want to waste time there fine. But as you said 99% of us don’t. Whey should the needs of the few out way the needs of the many?

But yeah, Cheers!

I’m (still) not saying that anyone has to play my way, or should be punished for the way they’re currently playing. I find it hilarious that you seem to believe that I’m part of some kind of insidious movement to ban your current style of play. Yes that’s right, I’m secretly in cahoots with Anita Sarkeesian to ruin gaming!

Bonus points: you yourself just said “if you want to waste time there” – this is my exact point – dungeon rewards are so imbalanced that actually playing the content is considered a “waste of time”. It IS a waste of time because the rewards are so low for full playthroughs that it would take months to farm up a single gearset if played that way.

THIS IS MY POINT: I want playing the “whole” dungeon to pay as much as playing only the bosses. I don’t know how I can make that point any more clear.

Dalanor.5387:

Illuminerdi.9153:

Personally, I think people are either scared that speedrunning is going to be taken away, or they are just plain afraid of change, so it’s easier for them to argue that there shouldn’t be an alternative.

I think that the problem is they’re worried that if speedrunning is taken away, it will increase the amount of time it takes to farm dungeons, when my suggestion is (ultimately) not to take away speedrunning, it’s really a suggestion to increase the level/rate of dungeon rewards for everyone else to take away the allure of speedruns…

You just want more gold with low effort tactics while farming a single path, i get it, all of us get it. Thank you, but we don’t like it.

Killing everything is actualy less effort? Since when choosing the easy way out is not actualy easier by conveniance. While speedrunning is supported running dungeon in a vannila fashion could use more reward for those that are willing to actualy try it out. I recall that killing everything in Arah is infinitely more tedious then simply running by and i think player should be rewarded accordingly for their trouble.

TheFamster.7806:

No you didn’t do enough speedruns. In fact you didn’t do speed runs at all. Im sorry but what you did was a PUG group as well as just casual daily dungeon run. You did not even touch fractal 40+ or Arah paths and you believe you have a clear understanding of how speed dungeon tour works in Gw2? And just because you have “zerker” gear does not mean you are a quality player. In fact since you avoided any runes/sigils that you use, I doubt you have the skill to carry the team let alone being an effective teammate.

Please post on the thread when you have experienced every single dungeon path then we can have a clean and nice discussion. Right now what you did was barely speed running and you have no idea how it works.

Pretty sure I got yelled at earlier for implying that people felt my opinion was not credible because I hadn’t sunk thousands of hours into dungeons, and here’s someone telling me to go away until I’ve…sunk thousands of hours into dungeons.

I’ll get right on that.

Illuminerdi.9153:

I wish I could watch even a single one of the cutscenes to actually find out what the heck is going on in them. I’ve run CoF more than a dozen times and I honestly have no idea what’s happening on any of its paths.

Read what you’re typing.

And no you’re not getting yelled at for not sinking thousands of hours into dungeons. You have absolutely zero experience with actual speedrunning or dungeon tours. Even 30 minutes of experience with that would give you much more of an understanding.

Illuminerdi.9153:

TheFamster.7806:

No you didn’t do enough speedruns. In fact you didn’t do speed runs at all. Im sorry but what you did was a PUG group as well as just casual daily dungeon run. You did not even touch fractal 40+ or Arah paths and you believe you have a clear understanding of how speed dungeon tour works in Gw2? And just because you have “zerker” gear does not mean you are a quality player. In fact since you avoided any runes/sigils that you use, I doubt you have the skill to carry the team let alone being an effective teammate.

Please post on the thread when you have experienced every single dungeon path then we can have a clean and nice discussion. Right now what you did was barely speed running and you have no idea how it works.

Pretty sure I got yelled at earlier for implying that people felt my opinion was not credible because I hadn’t sunk thousands of hours into dungeons, and here’s someone telling me to go away until I’ve…sunk thousands of hours into dungeons.

I’ll get right on that.

Yes that is because you are undermining people’s experience. Just because you dipped your toe in your bathtub doesn’t mean you are an expert at swimming. In fact you are under-qualified as dungeon runner at all because you don’t seem to grasp how much effort and time people spent on effective dungeon runs. We are not telling you to go away, we are telling you to learn more about speed dungeon running before you post such premature threads and responses. Why are you offended when people tell you exactly what you are and how you need to learn more before you have an opinion? I thought you were being reasonable but as you just post you hate to admit that your inexperience makes your argument completely ineffective.

Illuminerdi.9153:

I’m curious if you read about my idea for making rewards increase the longer a run takes; the idea being that if you kill the first boss or a few trash mobs you get chump change. This prevent people from running in, farming up early content, then leaving before later content.

But, by making the multiplier dependent on how many bosses/trash mobs the team killed, it also means that you can’t bypass that stuff either and just kill the bosses, or else your reward will still be chump change.

For example:

Let’s say you have a boon that you get when you kill a dungeon enemy. Trash mobs give you 1 stack of the boon and bosses give you 5 stacks. For the sake of the example imagine that there is no upper limit to number of stacks you can have on this boon. The boon is wiped when the dungeon is reset, but persists between death.

If you speedrun the dungeon killing only bosses and necessary enemies, you wind up with, say, 50 stacks at the end. Meanwhile, if you finish the dungeon killing most of the trash and the bosses, you wind up with 500 stacks.

Now you weight the rewards so that someone with 50 boon stacks killing a trash mob has a 20% chance for 1 token drop, but someone with 500 stacks has a 70% chance of a 2 token drop. Killing a boss when you have 50 stacks gets you 5 guaranteed tokens and a 20% chance of 3-5 extra tokens to drop. Killing a boss with 500 stacks gets you 20 guaranteed tokens and a 70% chance of 5-10 extra tokens.

Make sure nobody finds a way to quickly stack this boon up to 500 and you have a weighted system: all rewards are proportional to the time spent in the dungeon, without actually being based on “time” (otherwise people would just idle) – you have to kill enemies to get the boon, so you have to actively play to stack it, and being stacked per player means that people can’t just jump into existing teams and reap the rewards.

I’m curious what your take on this is and whether or not you can see ways this would be (heavily) exploited or otherwise still discouraging people from playing sections of content?

EDIT: also don’t focus on the exact numbers I put in there – I wasn’t being specific and I’d need to get out a calculator to determine what “good” numbers would be for a system like this, the idea is just to show how your reward curves upwards the more content you do so rewards stop being a race between time and content, freeing people up to choose whether they want to do a little content and get a little reward, or a lot of content and a lot of reward. The overall rate of reward would be equal between different play styles – everyone would earn tokens at (approximately) the same rate.

Scaling up rewards as the run goes on is an interesting idea. The biggest flaw would be the difficult balancing and implementation.

Balancing around a simple merits based system is easy in theory. Just take the average time it takes to complete a dungeon run while skipping and speed running, work out how much time it takes to kill all the skipped enemies and complete all the bonus objectives assuming the same party and tactics, and then multiply that time by the current reward/time of the speed run to get how much that should reward players. Thus, the time spent on objectives would be equally rewarding to the time spent on the dungeon avoiding those objectives.

But a scaling dynamic system adds a whole other level of complexity to accomplish the same thing. Now, you not only have to balance the time it takes to complete an objective, but also the rate at which the buffs are acquired, and the average amount of buffs at any moment in the dungeon, then acquire new metrics about speedrunning the dungeon while skipping (particularly the distribution of buffs per every moment of award) and apply that measurement to balancing out the rate at which items are dropped and buffs are applied while not skipping.

Simplicity is a positive factor. A scaling buff system can work, but the potential for exploitation and failure is high, and holy hell do I not want to sit down and work out all those numbers.

Illuminerdi.9153:

THIS IS MY POINT: I want playing the “whole” dungeon to pay as much as playing only the bosses. I don’t know how I can make that point any more clear.

I am going to just address this one point. Because I get what your saying, I just don’t agree with it.

Clearing the Whole Dungeon doesn’t have to pay as much as skipping it. There is no reason that it should. Some mobs in dungeons are there just to slow players down, they are even programmed to not drop any loot at all.

Guild Wars is not alone in this. Bosses in Video games have always dropped better loot then standard foes. Even in single player games like Final Fantasy or games like Diabo where to clear the greater rifts you speed past everything but the elites.

I honestly can no wrap my mind around what you wanting here. Its like just because I can run a dungeon fast an get the reward faster then you that is wrong? Its high risk high rewards. I put in more effort to get more rewards.

Its really that simple.

Dalanor.5387:

You just want more gold with low effort tactics while farming a single path, i get it, all of us get it. Thank you, but we don’t like it.

No, actually you don’t get it. Not even close.

For the record: I want to run all paths. I also would not give a crap if they took out gold rewards from dungeon bonus chests – I’m here for the loot drops and the gear tokens, gold doesn’t even factor into my decision when I decide to do a dungeon that night.

Also: “low effort tactics” That’s hilarious. “Stack and whack” is low effort. I have experienced minimal levels of challenge in dungeons so far – I find them FAR too easy. Learn the stack point, learn the boss’s abilities, learn the exploits, then rinse and repeat. Speedruns are “low effort tactics” once they’re discovered. The process of discovering them is super difficult, but watching a youtube video or having a dungeon explained and then just “following the procedure”? That is what I call low effort…

And no, I’m not talking about fractals here – I haven’t done them yet and I’m not sure if I ever will, but I gather that they’re harder, so exclude them from the above statement.

And yeah, some people might find my above statements insulting, but I truly believe that the current method of dungeon running is “low effort” because it relies on exploits and rote tactics. It’s been tested by a million players until it’s become nearly foolproof (if you know the routine, that is) and that’s why it’s so popular.

200 hours in game, 15 cof runs…. and you’re telling that you know better than people who sunk 5k+ hours and ran almost every path in the game at least 500 times EACH? I don’t think we have been insulted that much in a long time…

Basically your thread is you poking us in the eye with a stick and expect us to sit quiet. Nope, not going to happen.

Talyn.3295:

Illuminerdi.9153:

THIS IS MY POINT: I want playing the “whole” dungeon to pay as much as playing only the bosses. I don’t know how I can make that point any more clear.

I am going to just address this one point. Because I get what your saying, I just don’t agree with it.

Clearing the Whole Dungeon doesn’t have to pay as much as skipping it. There is no reason that it should. Some mobs in dungeons are there just to slow players down, they are even programmed to not drop any loot at all.

Guild Wars is not alone in this. Bosses in Video games have always dropped better loot then standard foes. Even in single player games like Final Fantasy or games like Diabo where to clear the greater rifts you speed past everything but the elites.

I honestly can no wrap my mind around what you wanting here. Its like just because I can run a dungeon fast an get the reward faster then you that is wrong? Its high risk high rewards. I put in more effort to get more rewards.

Its really that simple.

No it’s not that I dislike that you can get the reward faster, I dislike that the allure of doing so has caused gaming to devolve into this. I dislike that all anyone wants to do anymore is this: get the reward. I’m even guilty of this, not gonna pretend I’m not. I wouldn’t even be trying to change things if I could earn dungeon gear in a few hours doing “slow” runs, but I can’t – I’d be fine with being a few hours behind other players with the time it took to get a tangible reward from a dungeon run, but it’s far beyond that.

Even doing speedruns of AC at 15 minutes apiece, it takes about 20+ hours for a single gearset with a single weapon. This is way too long. I’ve got a wife and kids – so my choices as a player are either quit playing or optimize my gameplay to death so that I don’t fall behind or spend 3-5x as much time as everyone else for the same level of reward.

I dislike that it’s become the “only” option for most players. I dislike that virtually nobody wants to stop and smell the roses, and that those of us who think things should be equal are shot down because people feel they’re somehow entitled to more just because they can emulate someone else’s shortcut. How many people here can claim they were the first person in all of GW2 to discover a speedrun path through a dungeon? I’m guessing it’s a handful at most – everyone else was taught how to do it by someone else, and much like a virus, it’s just continued to spread and infect.

Illuminerdi.9153:

Dalanor.5387:

You just want more gold with low effort tactics while farming a single path, i get it, all of us get it. Thank you, but we don’t like it.

No, actually you don’t get it. Not even close.

For the record: I want to run all paths. I also would not give a crap if they took out gold rewards from dungeon bonus chests – I’m here for the loot drops and the gear tokens, gold doesn’t even factor into my decision when I decide to do a dungeon that night.

Also: “low effort tactics” That’s hilarious. “Stack and whack” is low effort. I have experienced minimal levels of challenge in dungeons so far – I find them FAR too easy. Learn the stack point, learn the boss’s abilities, learn the exploits, then rinse and repeat. Speedruns are “low effort tactics” once they’re discovered. The process of discovering them is super difficult, but watching a youtube video or having a dungeon explained and then just “following the procedure”? That is what I call low effort…

And no, I’m not talking about fractals here – I haven’t done them yet and I’m not sure if I ever will, but I gather that they’re harder, so exclude them from the above statement.

And yeah, some people might find my above statements insulting, but I truly believe that the current method of dungeon running is “low effort” because it relies on exploits and rote tactics. It’s been tested by a million players until it’s become nearly foolproof (if you know the routine, that is) and that’s why it’s so popular.

So here we are, in a self denial. People tell you to learn more about dungeon running before you judge, but you disagree and maintain that your opinions are superior to others and force other to accept your opinion while you tune and block any others. Why even make this post if you are not willing to accept that you do not know half of the dungeon contents to make sound judgement? Are you just simply wanting attention? Join a proper dungeon guild, learn to play, adapt, do speed running, learn more dungeons, try to solo a path and do high level fractals for more challenge, and then you’ll realize dungeon rewards are bad not because of the gold, but because of the insane RNG