Guild Wars 2

Well they need to fix that RNG then as well as the way rewards are earned. Good that someone finaly admited theres something highly wrong in how the dungeon reward works.

Illuminerdi.9153:

Even doing speedruns of AC at 15 minutes apiece

doing speedruns 15 minutes apiece

speedruns 15 minutes

speedruns

ok

Please stop with that highly offensive bashing attitude. You are new and join into experienced groups and willfully ignore our advice to search for likeminded people to have casual slow paced runs until you get more experience with dungeons in general. After 15 runs of course you are not bored to death. Do it for 2 years and you’ll see it you’ll be in the same situation as we are.
Now please leave the discussion if are unable to stop with bashing our community.

Back to on topic.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Dungeon-Forum-FAQ/first

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Will-the-new-update-stop-skipping/first#post1205684

Please read them.

frifox.5283:

200 hours in game, 15 cof runs…. and you’re telling that you know better than people who sunk 5k+ hours and ran almost every path in the game at least 500 times EACH? I don’t think we have been insulted that much in a long time…

Basically your thread is you poking us in the eye with a stick and expect us to sit quiet. Nope, not going to happen.

In short: yes. If you’ve spent 5k hours doing the same thing over and over again then you’ve become numb, or jaded, and you know only this one way of doing things and the idea of changing them is actually scary or abhorrent. Or maybe you feel angry that someone else might come along later and get the same level of reward for what you consider to be “less” work.

Several people have posted here to tell me that I should come back after I’ve sunk a few more months or years of my life into the game. Why? How does the fact that I’ve only put maybe 100 hours into dungeons mean I’m somehow less qualified to say “hey guys, this kitten is taking WAY too long” or “hey guys, how about we mix things up so that we can at least do things different ways instead of the exact same way over and over again?”

The only thing more playtime for me would do is probably make me think like some of the people here: after 5000 hours I too would probably defend the status quo, not because it was right, but because I was either predisposed to enjoying that (hence the 5000 hours) or because I’d gotten used to it already. If anything I think I’m in a good position to argue for change; I haven’t yet been worn down by years of grinding away…

I have not personnaly ran dungeon in a while killing idiot in spvp is way more fun but i wish sometime we did the ac like in the old day with kholer and the non stacked spider.

kyubi.3620:

I have not personnaly ran dungeon in a while killing idiot in spvp is way more fun but i wish sometime we did the ac like in the old day with kholer and the non stacked spider.

Most people do kill Kholer, and since the FGS nerf I’ve seen quite a few people kill the spider queen in the open.

Dalanor.5387:

ok

Please stop with that highly offensive bashing attitude. You are new and join into experienced groups and willfully ignore our advice to search for likeminded people to have casual slow paced runs until you get more experience with dungeons in general. After 15 runs of course you are not bored to death. Do it for 2 years and you’ll see it you’ll be in the same situation as we are.
Now please leave the discussion if are unable to stop with bashing our community.

Back to on topic.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Dungeon-Forum-FAQ/first

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Will-the-new-update-stop-skipping/first#post1205684

Please read them.

I’ve read them – they don’t address any of my points, and they were written by people here; you do realize the absurdity of pointing me to what amount to “your” answers and saying “hey we wrote this thing so it’s now the only truth that exists in this world”? All they basically say is “we like skipping, if you don’t like skipping TOO BAD” – how is that a solution?

I’m not saying that people should stop skipping; I’m proposing a solution to the reason why skipping has become popular/necessary so that alternatives exist without giving a monetary advantage to skippers or penalizing non-skippers (depending on your POV in regards to this).

I’m pretty sure that what I’m proposing is a viable solution to exactly the problem that Rob Hrouda stated: how to reward non-skippers without enabling (worse) farming. I think it’s a hilarious that a proposed solution where nobody loses and everybody wins is universally hated and I’m somehow “insulting” people with my proposal.

I started this topic in an attempt to solve a problem, and subsequently have been told repeatedly to go away, mostly because (as stated by both the FAQ and the devs) everyone has already agreed that it can’t be solved.

Well looks like you guys have won another round of Yell at the Noob; I’m getting tired of this discussion and I can see that it’s a losing battle. Nobody agrees with me and nobody seems to care that skipping has become an entrenched part of the game resulting in an imbalance in the community.

Everyone is perfectly happy to just indoctrinate all the new players into the hows and whys of skipping and nobody wants to actually play the game any differently, and apparently I am to be shamed for having the audacity to suggest otherwise. This is a forum for skippers and if I don’t like skipping then I should get out.

I’ve wasted a borderline absurd amount of time in a futile attempt to see if anyone else thought some variety might be nice. Nope: keep grinding, slaves! Those tokens aren’t going to farm themselves!

Guess I’d better go look up some rune/insignia builds and start watching more youtube videos of Fractals.

Yeah, insult me again when i’m totally on topic. It’s an old issue and Hrouda has a well detailed post about the issue. 2 years since realease and nothing changed and it’s very unlikely that it will happen soon, so the solution is in the FAQ, make your own groups.

Dalanor.5387:

Yeah, insult me again when i’m totally on topic. It’s an old issue and Hrouda has a well detailed post about the issue. 2 years since realease and nothing changed and it’s very unlikely that it will happen soon, so the solution is in the FAQ, make your own groups.

You’re right; nothing will change, because apparently everyone has already given up…

How depressing is that?

Illuminerdi.9153:

Dalanor.5387:

Yeah, insult me again when i’m totally on topic. It’s an old issue and Hrouda has a well detailed post about the issue. 2 years since realease and nothing changed and it’s very unlikely that it will happen soon, so the solution is in the FAQ, make your own groups.

You’re right; nothing will change, because apparently everyone has already given up…

How depressing is that?

Welcome to the dungeon subforum…

Illuminerdi.9153:

Dalanor.5387:

Yeah, insult me again when i’m totally on topic. It’s an old issue and Hrouda has a well detailed post about the issue. 2 years since realease and nothing changed and it’s very unlikely that it will happen soon, so the solution is in the FAQ, make your own groups.

You’re right; nothing will change, because apparently everyone has already given up…

How depressing is that?

Are you really that special or really intend to troll everybody here?
SOON. Even if you magically come up with a genius idea it would take months until it gets implemented.

Illuminerdi.9153:

frifox.5283:

200 hours in game, 15 cof runs…. and you’re telling that you know better than people who sunk 5k+ hours and ran almost every path in the game at least 500 times EACH? I don’t think we have been insulted that much in a long time…

Basically your thread is you poking us in the eye with a stick and expect us to sit quiet. Nope, not going to happen. Or maybe you feel angry that someone else might come along later and get the same level of reward for what you consider to be “less” work.

In short: yes. If you’ve spent 5k hours doing the same thing over and over again then you’ve become numb, or jaded, and you know only this one way of doing things and the idea of changing them is actually scary or abhorrent.

Nobody is their right mind would do same thing over and over for 5k hours without going insane. Those 5k hours consist of running same DUNGEONS for 2 years. Over those 2 years we’ve ran them with all possible gear types, all possible builds, all possible classes, all possible party compositions, all possible strategies. From that experience we know for a fact what is faster and what is slower AND what is more and what is less work. I am numb but not from running same thing over and over, I’m numb from watching all you pugs running inside the dungeon like headless chickens (or stacking thinking it will solve everything) thinking you are making it easier where in fact you’re only making it unnecessarily harder for yourself.

The idea of changing the way the dungeon runs is quite appealing to me. Quite often in my “exp zerks only” pug runs at the start of the dungeon I will say “no stacking behind corners” and see how it plays out. It’s hilarious seeing those only-200-hours-ingame players like you fail miserably and panic as soon as the dungeon is run with a strategy different than what is considered acceptable, yet me being in a full glass setup still be alive and finish the boss after the rest of the party is kissing the floor.

Nobody is angry that you may get same reward for “less” work. In fact, it’s quite the opposite. It’s the veteran players that get more reward (gold/tokens) for running the paths much faster/easier than how your average player would run it.

As it was suggested here, make your own lfg and advertise it as “not a speedrun, kill everything, smell the roses” and the players who join you will be of the same mindset as you, and your run will be exactly what you want it to be. Is that concept too difficult for you to grasp?

kyubi.3620:

Regardless of the OP many girouete like post i still think he got a point speedrunning is way to rewarding and encourage people to skip content in the sake of moneymaking. Money should come both way even when not speedrunning and skipping stuff shoulnt be more viable moneywise and effectivenesswise in a run then killing it, at best it should be equaly viable. It should not be a choice of ‘’will i make more money or token by skiping or not’’ but rather of ‘’will my life be easier if i skip or not’’ because the facts are dungeon mobs drop nothing usefull least of all token and are in many way simply put useless. What about making that any material lootbag found on regular mob gives 3 or 2 token of the actual dungeon so to encourage killing them?

I dont get it, you are still making the same amount of money than a speed runner would just slower because you want to kill extra random mobs that were just thrown in for the sake of just having something there. If they implemented something like you say then it seems you just want more tokens considering the amount of useless enemies in the different dungeons have. And with the original op idea of having a common token currency also quickly seems like wanting more tokens to get what ever you want without doing the work since you can just farm easier paths

kyubi.3620:

I have not personnaly ran dungeon in a while killing idiot in spvp is way more fun but i wish sometime we did the ac like in the old day with kholer and the non stacked spider.

Then you have been long long long gone from a dungeon, that is the meta for both things you mentioned. Maybe try doing dungeons again before bringing somerhing up

frifox.5283:

. I am numb but not from running same thing over and over, I’m numb from watching all you pugs running inside the dungeon like headless chickens (or stacking thinking it will solve everything) thinking you are making it easier where in fact you’re only making it unnecessarily harder for yourself.

I now want a headless chicken tonic. SOO badly!
Then I will go into every pug group I can find, transform, and leyroy.
This would be so much fun, and so rewarding

Also dungeons should award skilled play, not bad play.

EG ac p1:
<6 minutes: 3g
<8 minutes 2g
<10 minutes 1.5g
<15 minutes 1g + free headless chicken tonic.
>15 minutes 1 spike, and 1 pile of phantasmal residue (and headless chicken tonic).

Maybe start timer when path is chosen, for those with slow computers. Exploitable, with spider, but timer could lose 1m if spider is already dead with path chosen?

Sure I don’t expect this any time soon. But headless chicken tonic!

It is very clear that my ideas were not even remotely popular and that in general I was barking up the wrong tree. I have no wish to prolong an argument on this subject any further or contribute further to creating a hostile forum environment; despite my earnest desire to make things better I’ve succeeded in making them markedly worse, and I feel terrible for doing so; that was never my intention.

OP was deleted in the hopes that it would kill the thread but apparently that is not the case. If anyone wants to know what OP said it was basically a summary of a series of idea to change the way dungeon rewards work to provide equal reward distribution to short and long dungeon runs so that “skipping” was no longer “more” profitable than “non-skipping” in terms of rewards earned per hour.

My suggestions were, according to some people, insulting and generally did not go over well as you can see from subsequent replies.

/thread

Holly Molly, I need to come back here more often, almost missed that gem

I’ll break down an all around reaction to this topic into 3 parts :

1) Why can’t I have more rewards for spending more time in the dungeon mommy ?

Answer : I’ll do a comparison with real life as it’s something which happened to me and it felt horrible to me.

I’m a happy student in a french business school. I’ll probably have a nice salary and an overall interesting job when I finish my studies.
To get into that school, I spent two years of my life studying close to 120 hours a week (17 hours a day). Yes, I was in an elitist cram school, and I dedicated a lot of work to get where I am. Not nearly as much as others, but enough to be satisfied.
Then on the first day of school, I met the people who came from parallel ways (that’s how we call them). Some of them, instead of speedrunning subjects for 2 years of their life, just casually spent three or four years in university before being granted access to an easy exam that allowed them to get in the same school as me. In the same program. Which means we’ll get the same diploma. The same job. The same salary.

Outside of any ingame consideration, do you think that this is fair ? Basically these people took their time, attended parties, fooled around yet get the same reward as me who busted my kitten off.

Now let’s transpose this into Guild Wars 2. I’m part of the people that think that effort should and must be rewarded. If you can take less time achieving something, the reward should be higher. That’s how real life works man (except in my case QQ).

2) Why are these people telling me to play the game some more before I give my opinion ? Bonus point for : “I play it the way it was intended”.

My reaction : well, can’t say much more than what has already been said man… I’ll just say that as for myself I played this game ‘hardcore’ for over a year now. I learnt so much about every mechanic that now I think I may be grasping the whole idea and how things could be changed to make it better. One year of hardcore playing while reading suggestions and shutting it. Just to grasp how it could be.
You have 200 hours. Just explore all of the game, as in everything it has to offer, before going deep into non thought suggestions

3) OMG these people exploiting their way into a dungeon to get the end reward (everything that matters) as fast as possible. We should change that guys come on !

My reaction : my guild’s latest dungeon speedrun world record => https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeMDGC9yflc

What you see here is a record run, what is truly called a speedclear/speedrun. We played this dungeon casually for one year. We played it “hardcore” (what we jokingly call our casual daily dungeon tours = approximately twice as fast as a pug run) for one year. Last Friday we spent 5 hours in this path, resetting again and again to figure the best tactics, to get perfect RNG, to make sure we wouldn’t mess up anywhere.

Back to 1) : effort => reward. We get the end reward + all boss loot in a flat 7 minutes.
Why should a group taking a good hour get more ? Should the absence of effort be rewarded ?

For all the PHIWers :
- Spider Queen was killed in the open
- Kholer was killed

Happy now ?

So Illuminerdi, don’t go closing this delicious thread and give me an answer.
If you do it, I’ll myself answer you in the same way as I wrote this post : clear, with real life comparisons, by bringing examples and justifying my idea around the rewards balancing.

Cheers

Did the OP remove their post? The first post doesn’t make any sense in the context of the thread.

Zaxares.5419:

Did the OP remove their post? The first post doesn’t make any sense in the context of the thread.

Yes he made a post about it at the end, he was hoping it would delete the entire thread because it’s obviously an idea many here would object to.

Basically he wanted more rewards for killing stuff inside dungeons instead of rewards for completion. Thus ruining the rewarding nature of speed runs and promoting slower runs.

Ahh, right. Well, while I don’t believe in reducing or removing the completion rewards for dungeons, I would not be averse to loot from mobs in dungeons being improved. Encouraging more full clears means more money at the expense of time, so why not?

Zaxares.5419:

Ahh, right. Well, while I don’t believe in reducing or removing the completion rewards for dungeons, I would not be averse to loot from mobs in dungeons being improved. Encouraging more full clears means more money at the expense of time, so why not?

Yeah, I think they said they were concerned with farming, but honestly with looking at other events around the game I don’t think that’d be such an issue. We have the heavy farming events that jump around as far as what’s best. THen there is always SEp1 farm for speed running through for champ chests. What would the harm really be if it were worthwhile to kill things inside dungeons?

It would work if speedrunning was still giving more GPH than kill-all runs. I’m ok with increased drops from trashmobs. ;>

There is inherintly nothing wrong with speedrunners getting significantly higher rewards then those that prefer not to. Why should people who prefer to take the easy way out, who prefer to not take a challenge of skipping several mobs, who throw tons of conditions, pull you, stun or daze you get the same friggin reward as people who have done those dungeons several times over again, worked thier butt off to get where they are. That’s not how life works. Games aren’t excatly a representation of real life sure, I’d give you that but games aside from having fun offer challenges to players who wish to test thier limits. This is very common, most if not all games offer players an bigger reward for if they want to work for something. This isn’t forced upon you. And not every player is an ’’elite’’ They are tons of new players who are roaming in quensdale or another starting area as we speak. They will eventually become lv 30 and do thier own dungeon.

As others have said it beforehand. If you want to to enjoy the ’’scenery’’ you can make your own LFG or search for those that have the same interestests as you do. I’m not a speedrunner myself, And I will probably never be. But I sure as hell have a lot of resspect and admiration for those who can speedrun or solo dungeons. Let them have thier rewards they worked thier kitten off.

Nothing worth getting is easy.

kyubi.3620:

but i wish sometime we did the ac like in the old day with kholer and the non stacked spider.

Most speed run groups kill Kohler. And killing the spider queen in the open is the speed run meta. The scrub tier pug meta hasn’t figured out either of those things though. I’d say give it 6 months before speed run meta trickles down to pug tier, but based on how pug eles are still dropping FGS and not using Ice Bow that may be overly optimistic.

Miku Lawrence.6329:

It would work if speedrunning was still giving more GPH than kill-all runs. I’m ok with increased drops from trashmobs. ;>

I’d imagine that’d be so, I mean in some cases it may be worth stopping and killing some trash, but that’d just become part of the daily cash tour speedrunning while maybe not the “world record speed clear” thing. In either case the faster you did it the more GPH you’d be getting. Just thinking things like a quick stop, LOS, kill, here and there if it can be done quick and you kill enough things to be worth your time.