Guild Wars 2

TexZero.7910:

william dj.6953:

Oh really? Either you are right and Anet is wrong or Anet is right and you are wrong.
If raids aren’t meant to be pugged. Whats this? Looks like something design just for pugging. go figure.

Anet made that so that you people who do nothing more than sit here and complain about how hard it is to find groups have an easier time finding groups.

Do note that finding a group doesn’t mean that your average PuG will succeed. Your odds throughout the week will vary ranging from excellent at reset to I want to punt a puppy on sunday.

Not sure if you meant me or not. Hard to tell. I don’t raid. Don’t have enough time, never have. Just trolling the post really on a lazy sunday. I think it’s a pretty cool thing Anet made for people who want to. My post was only pointing out Anet did expect people to pug or they wouldn’t have wasted their time making this. After reading 7 pages of this the U.S. Government or Anet is hiding alien technology at area 51

Lol punt a puppy, thats funny.

TexZero.7910:

william dj.6953:

Oh really? Either you are right and Anet is wrong or Anet is right and you are wrong.
If raids aren’t meant to be pugged. Whats this? Looks like something design just for pugging. go figure.

…

Do note that finding a group doesn’t mean that your average PuG will succeed. Your odds throughout the week will vary ranging from excellent at reset to I want to punt a puppy on sunday.

You are genius. Last step – you need to realise wtf we are talking about.

william dj.6953:

Malediktus.9250:

Raids are not meant to be pugged, so you have no right to complain if you are unable (doesnt matter what reason) to make a static group or find a raid guild. Every raid boss kill you get while pugging should be just considered a nice bonus.

Oh really? Either you are right and Anet is wrong or Anet is right and you are wrong.
If raids aren’t meant to be pugged. Whats this? Looks like something design just for pugging. go figure.

That was added after raids got introduced because people abused other categories as a raid lfg.

ezd.6359:

TexZero.7910:

william dj.6953:

Oh really? Either you are right and Anet is wrong or Anet is right and you are wrong.
If raids aren’t meant to be pugged. Whats this? Looks like something design just for pugging. go figure.

…

Do note that finding a group doesn’t mean that your average PuG will succeed. Your odds throughout the week will vary ranging from excellent at reset to I want to punt a puppy on sunday.

You are genius. Last step – you need to realise wtf we are talking about.

You say toe-may-toe, I say ta-mah-toe, you say talking, I say whining

I think I know whats being talked about after 7 pages.

Some have spent more time and effort earning the items needed for their goal. Others have not spend enough time. Those who haven’t spent enough time are upset with those who have. They demand Anet lower the requirements to satisfy their lack of commitment, enabling them to achieve the same thing as those who put in more effort than they.

Sound about right?

william dj.6953:

ezd.6359:

TexZero.7910:

william dj.6953:

Oh really? Either you are right and Anet is wrong or Anet is right and you are wrong.
If raids aren’t meant to be pugged. Whats this? Looks like something design just for pugging. go figure.

…

Do note that finding a group doesn’t mean that your average PuG will succeed. Your odds throughout the week will vary ranging from excellent at reset to I want to punt a puppy on sunday.

You are genius. Last step – you need to realise wtf we are talking about.

You say toe-may-toe, I say ta-mah-toe, you say talking, I say whining

I think I know whats being talked about after 7 pages.

Some have spent more time and effort earning the items needed for their goal. Others have not spend enough time. Those who haven’t spent enough time are upset with those who have. They demand Anet lower the requirements to satisfy their lack of commitment, enabling them to achieve the same thing as those who put in more effort than they.

Sound about right?

Negative. Those who earn theirs kills using LFG spend more time and apply more efforts. While those who have static groups have all very easy. And in same time they will be able to craft armor while others will continue to spend hours, days and weeks in randoms lfg groups.

ezd.6359:

william dj.6953:

ezd.6359:

TexZero.7910:

william dj.6953:

Oh really? Either you are right and Anet is wrong or Anet is right and you are wrong.
If raids aren’t meant to be pugged. Whats this? Looks like something design just for pugging. go figure.

…

Do note that finding a group doesn’t mean that your average PuG will succeed. Your odds throughout the week will vary ranging from excellent at reset to I want to punt a puppy on sunday.

You are genius. Last step – you need to realise wtf we are talking about.

You say toe-may-toe, I say ta-mah-toe, you say talking, I say whining

I think I know whats being talked about after 7 pages.

Some have spent more time and effort earning the items needed for their goal. Others have not spend enough time. Those who haven’t spent enough time are upset with those who have. They demand Anet lower the requirements to satisfy their lack of commitment, enabling them to achieve the same thing as those who put in more effort than they.

Sound about right?

Negative. Those who earn theirs kills using LFG spend more time and apply more efforts. While those who have static groups have all very easy. And in same time they will be able to craft armor while others will continue to spend hours, days and weeks in randoms lfg groups.

Want to know whose fault that is try using one of these.

william dj.6953:

ezd.6359:

TexZero.7910:

william dj.6953:

Oh really? Either you are right and Anet is wrong or Anet is right and you are wrong.
If raids aren’t meant to be pugged. Whats this? Looks like something design just for pugging. go figure.

…

Do note that finding a group doesn’t mean that your average PuG will succeed. Your odds throughout the week will vary ranging from excellent at reset to I want to punt a puppy on sunday.

You are genius. Last step – you need to realise wtf we are talking about.

You say toe-may-toe, I say ta-mah-toe, you say talking, I say whining

I think I know whats being talked about after 7 pages.

Some have spent more time and effort earning the items needed for their goal. Others have not spend enough time. Those who haven’t spent enough time are upset with those who have. They demand Anet lower the requirements to satisfy their lack of commitment, enabling them to achieve the same thing as those who put in more effort than they.

Sound about right?

no. i dont care how much effort i have to put into making a legendary, because i expect it to be giant. what i care about is having fun while doing so and not looking back on the experience and thinking “this was kittening miserable” the way i do with the ad infinitum and ascension daily time gates. LI are exactly the same, but drawn out by nearly another order of magnitude.

Tomorrow we will have 150 li its fine ! Epen is really strong on some ppl here.

Anyway since “epic pro” raiders here dont know lfg exist u can ignore this. Rest have some laugh, i guess ….
http://m.imgur.com/YeRmlO0?r

ezd.6359:

Valid reason is – IT REQUIRES GROUP OF 10 PEOPLE. IT IS HARD TO FIND RANDOM 10 PEOPLE WITH DECENT SKILL. What is so hard to understand for you?

You’ve clearly never tried.

I was in the same boat 7 weeks ago. I had no experience with any boss besides VG. I tried to join an experienced group and asked them to give me a chance to prove myself. They didn’t invite me. I found another guild (with some effort) willing to give me that chance. Within two weeks of raiding with them (which was frankly about 4-5 2-3 hours sessions over two weeks), guess what happened? The original guild that didn’t invite me to their group makes it a point to invite me when forming a raid group.

PUGs aren’t the only means to find static groups. Many guilds have training runs for new raiders to learn mechanics, and the ones who make the effort to do well in those get into static groups.

I now have more than two guilds to raid with. All in the space of 7 weeks.

I’m fine with the 150 limit myself… but that’s probably b/c I already have like 120 something of them, so the rest won’t take me long. I also actually enjoy raiding, so I guess the grind to 150 doesn’t really bother me

william dj.6953:

Malediktus.9250:

Raids are not meant to be pugged, so you have no right to complain if you are unable (doesnt matter what reason) to make a static group or find a raid guild. Every raid boss kill you get while pugging should be just considered a nice bonus.

Oh really? Either you are right and Anet is wrong or Anet is right and you are wrong.
If raids aren’t meant to be pugged. Whats this? Looks like something design just for pugging. go figure.

ANet said in the same interview that it would take a group of exceptional players to successfully PUG raids. Most of the PUGs in LFR aren’t that good. Most of the really good PUGs only raid at reset at 00:30 PST on Monday.

ANet didn’t design raids to be PUGed. They expected players to be well coordinated and clearing them in static groups where each player knows each other’s strengths and weaknesses, and classes played to form a group composition. It takes a group of exceptional players to adapt to each other’s play styles quickly and form a close to ideal group composition with whatever classes they have on hand.

Its actually kind of perplexing.

There is no logical reason for someone who already has ~150 LI would need to go out of there way to defend the 150 LI except out of spite or regret for the time they already put it.

If they aren’t anywhere near 150 LI and defend it, they obviously are a glut for punishment or just found a good raid guild.

Anyone with half a brain can see that the average time gate for most people is WAY over 4 months (more like 9-12), and it has no logical reason to be that way.

Kill gor 5 times = 5 weeks (easy times)
300 provisioner tokens @ 3 a day = ~3.5 months (easy times)
150 LI @ 9 week = 4 months (Omega Level)

Which of these are not like the others?

Point is, just make the LI a daily thing with restrictions to keep it from being overly easy and the problem goes away. 150 LI is not the issue, its the time between resets.

Harddrive.2738:

Its actually kind of perplexing.

There is no logical reason for someone who already has ~150 LI would need to go out of there way to defend the 150 LI except out of spite or regret for the time they already put it.

If they aren’t anywhere near 150 LI and defend it, they obviously are a glut for punishment or just found a good raid guild.

Anyone with half a brain can see that the average time gate for most people is WAY over 4 months (more like 9-12), and it has no logical reason to be that way.

Kill gor 5 times = 5 weeks (easy times)
300 provisioner tokens @ 3 a day = ~3.5 months (easy times)
150 LI @ 9 week = 4 months (Omega Level)

Which of these are not like the others?

Point is, just make the LI a daily thing with restrictions to keep it from being overly easy and the problem goes away. 150 LI is not the issue, its the time between resets.

if you read some of the posts on this thread then apparently legendary armour wasn’t meant for most folk and thats why anet balanced it around skilled players in statics.
to me thats not balanced.

Harddrive.2738:

Its actually kind of perplexing.

There is no logical reason for someone who already has ~150 LI would need to go out of there way to defend the 150 LI except out of spite or regret for the time they already put it.

If they aren’t anywhere near 150 LI and defend it, they obviously are a glut for punishment or just found a good raid guild.

Anyone with half a brain can see that the average time gate for most people is WAY over 4 months (more like 9-12), and it has no logical reason to be that way.

Kill gor 5 times = 5 weeks (easy times)
300 provisioner tokens @ 3 a day = ~3.5 months (easy times)
150 LI @ 9 week = 4 months (Omega Level)

Which of these are not like the others?

Point is, just make the LI a daily thing with restrictions to keep it from being overly easy and the problem goes away. 150 LI is not the issue, its the time between resets.

All legendary weapons can now be bought from a vendor for 1G each. Does this mean that all those who obtained legendary weapons before have no right to complain? Are they just doing this out of spite or regret for the time spent?

You also need to realize that whether or not someone has the LI has no bearing on their stance as to whether the 150 LI needed for the six pieces of legendary armor is too much.

As far as your last bit is concerned:

25 LI @ 9 week = 1 legendary item every 2.8 weeks

All legendary weapons can now be bought from a vendor for 1G each. Does this mean that all those who obtained legendary weapons before have no right to complain? Are they just doing this out of spite or regret for the time spent?

Correct. Its 100% pure spite and sour grapes.

We can’t even craft with LI yet, to say they are taking away value on something that is just a hypothetical and pointless in the extreme.

If I had a 150 LI it is a 100% certainty that I would not be on this form, in fact I’d be happy it decreased, then I’d have more for whatever else they might let me spend it on.

Harddrive.2738:

All legendary weapons can now be bought from a vendor for 1G each. Does this mean that all those who obtained legendary weapons before have no right to complain? Are they just doing this out of spite or regret for the time spent?

Correct. Its 100% pure spite and sour grapes.

We can’t even craft with LI yet, to say they are taking away value on something that is just a hypothetical and pointless in the extreme.

If I had a 150 LI it is a 100% certainty that I would not be on this form, in fact I’d be happy it decreased, then I’d have more for whatever else they might let me spend it on.

Remember that it is 25 LI per piece of legendary item.

I suppose if Anet released legendary amulet, rings, and accessories all at once under another system with a similar requirement, the same players would then be complaining about how it takes X amount of time to get them all while ignoring the fact that you’re getting multiple legendary items in the process.

What if legendary weapons had a timegate of 2.8 weeks. I suppose it would be unfair for it to take 4 months to get six legendary weapons…

150 LI prevents most people from simply buying the raids and those that do have to put a ton of money towards it.

If they nerfed it, everybody would just buy Wing2/3 once and keep buying the cheap wing 1 every week to get the insights.

That would totally devalue the armor sets when they come out as everybody with a couple of thousand extra gold will have it.

Also you’ve had raids available for how long now? Crying that it takes 4 months from nothing + the time to find raid groups is just nonsensical. It’s like complaining how the PvP backpiece is timegated but only starting at season 3.5. There’s been ample opportunity for you to learn the raids or get to know other people who can form groups.

I never said to lessen 150, but no matter how you look at it 4 months for a grind is insane. The average grind for most will be more like 9 months and is utterly insane.

Its not any one boss, but LFG is so fragmented that getting sets of bosses is nearly impossible in a reasonable amount of time.

I fully expected the crafting requirements to need ascended mats and ascended armors as some sort of base to upgrade the tier 1/2 armors.

But alas, its not our fault the other requirements are dirty easy/cheap. Stop trying to justify a bad system(legendary time gate) because there is no other way to justify the “legendary” aspect of the armors.

It’s not like you have to raid every day for 4 months straight. Maybe while you’re building the armor you can spend some of the time in between farming the materials required or doing other stuff.

I don’t see how it’s insane.

You clearly have never raid pugged.

The LI time gate is so massively larger then everything else, how could you not want to keep it as short as possible.

I would normally never buy raid wins because I know I can do them but given how much time can be saved personally and overal, its very temping like others have said.

Harddrive.2738:

You clearly have never raid pugged.

The LI time gate is so massively larger then everything else, how could you not want to keep it as short as possible.

I would normally never buy raid wins because I know I can do them but given how much time can be saved personally and overal, its very temping like others have said.

Have you? Not all pugs are bad. I know people that clear raids weekly who do nothing but pug. Even high profile players have pugged successfully too.

I pugged most of my raids early on and got into a group with other pugs who were like minded. My groups died 3-4 times since raids were available and I had to find new groups.

I am not in big raiding guilds like NA, DnT, ROID, zQ, Ren, LOD etc. I know a few people here and there but for the most part I pugged until I had enough people on friends I could call for help in raids and eventually get into a group that was somewhat static.

Even now my weekly raids are only 8/10 static and the guys are from over 5 different guilds.

If you guys actually bothered to pug raids and keep it up over time you’d have 100+ LI by now at least. I know plenty of people who don’t have static groups and try to do maybe 70% of the bosses every week and still manage to have over half the required LIs already.

But by all means keep complaining and blaming everything else but yourself for your lack of Insights

Lets try to clarify this once more, why are you even on this form topic?

You have nothing to lose or gain from changes to LI if you even remotely close to the 150 LI.

Reason we are here is because the time gate is absolutely non-nonsensical to all other aspects of the collection and other content. If they dropped the ball on the rest of the collection and crafting, thats not a counter point.

Anyone that thinks that raid pugs aren’t completely random and massively time consuming with random results based on nothing more then luck is kidding themselves. In the video he made it pretty clear it was random, 2-3h on a VG and no kill……

Then assume that can happen on all the bosses, and you got yourself a nightmare of a challenge to get all 9 in 1 week. This week I got VG on first try, I spent 5h+ on 3 different parties for Matt listed under experienced and got nothing.

Harddrive.2738:

Lets try to clarify this once more, why are you even on this form topic?

You have nothing to lose or gain from changes to LI if you even remotely close to the 150 LI.

Reason we are here is because the time gate is absolutely non-nonsensical to all other aspects of the collection and other content. If they dropped the ball on the rest of the collection and crafting, thats not a counter point.

Anyone that thinks that raid pugs aren’t completely random and massively time consuming with random results based on nothing more then luck is kidding themselves. In the video he made it pretty clear it was random, 2-3h on a VG and no kill……

Then assume that can happen on all the bosses, and you got yourself a nightmare of a challenge to get all 9 in 1 week. This week I got VG on first try, I spent 5h+ on 3 different parties for Matt listed under experienced and got nothing.

If you don’t want to work for the legendary weapon then you don’t deserve it. That’s what it has pretty much come down to. You just don’t want to put in the work for six legendary items.

Let’s make all items in the game available with the click of a button for everyone. Nobody should complain since they stand to not gain or lose anything from it. See how nonsensical that reasoning is? Never mind the fact that you did a double negative essentially contradicting your argument.

Ayrilana.1396:

Harddrive.2738:

Lets try to clarify this once more, why are you even on this form topic?

You have nothing to lose or gain from changes to LI if you even remotely close to the 150 LI.

Reason we are here is because the time gate is absolutely non-nonsensical to all other aspects of the collection and other content. If they dropped the ball on the rest of the collection and crafting, thats not a counter point.

Anyone that thinks that raid pugs aren’t completely random and massively time consuming with random results based on nothing more then luck is kidding themselves. In the video he made it pretty clear it was random, 2-3h on a VG and no kill……

Then assume that can happen on all the bosses, and you got yourself a nightmare of a challenge to get all 9 in 1 week. This week I got VG on first try, I spent 5h+ on 3 different parties for Matt listed under experienced and got nothing.

If you don’t want to work for the legendary weapon then you don’t deserve it. That’s what it has pretty much come down to. You just don’t want to put in the work for six legendary items.

Let’s make all items in the game available with the click of a button for everyone. Nobody should complain since they stand to not gain or lose anything from it. See how nonsensical that reasoning is? Never mind the fact that you did a double negative essentially contradicting your argument.

it isnt really less work, just less time. if each required ~10 LI instead of 25, you would still have to be a successful raider to complete your armor. but the crafting process wouldnt be drawn out by nearly an extra order of magnitude more than everything else in the game.

ezd.6359:

You can’t understand. For those who have static group it is not grind. They have 130-140 li already. They never tried to find a decent group using LFG. So they will never understand how good they are when 9 random people have differenct skill, don’t use TS and 2-3 people fail something on every kill attempt and you must work 200% times better and fail any way.

Harddrive.2738:

You clearly have never raid pugged.

The LI time gate is so massively larger then everything else, how could you not want to keep it as short as possible.

I would normally never buy raid wins because I know I can do them but given how much time can be saved personally and overal, its very temping like others have said.

I´m really, really, really tired of this argument – because it´s nonsense. Raids NOT MEANT TO BE PUGGED REGULARLY. There are many statements from Anet that prove this, for example: „… [Raids] require your raiding team to bring a high level of skill, strategy, and coordination in order to succeed“ – Steven Waller, August 29, 2015.
You simply can´t expect to find such a team if you pug Raids with different players all the time. It´s not a coincidence that there wasn´t a Raid section in LFG at the beginning. This section was only introduced because players asked for it and the fact that many pug groups are able to succeed just shows how established common Raid tactics are. LFG should be used to get your first experience or to find people you can start to raid with – but nothing more.

Let me tell you a little story: When Raids came out, my girlfriend and I didn´t raid at all, cause our guild wasn´t willing to bring the necessary effort to succeed. But we really wanted to raid, cause it´s the only content in PVE that requires skill and therefore attracted us. So we started trying to pug Raids via LFG at February. But there was a problem: No group was willing to pick us except “training” and “all welcome” groups cause we had no LIs, not to mention the eternal title. So we raided with those groups for hours and hours (in the evening and at the weekend – we have jobs and rl!), but we were not able to succeed with them. But we figured out which players we´re capable and started to add them to our friendlist. After a while we were able to build a team out of 6-7 players from our friendlist and a few pugs. And we started to clear the first wing successfully now – not quickly, but consistent.
As soon as we had 20 LI and Raid experience with a few classes, we joined a competent Raiding Guild, cause we had the demanded requirements now.
Nowadays we have more than 100 LIs and we need like two hours to clear all three wings with our guild. Twice a week we help out our old friends from LFG to get their insights.

That´s what EFFORT and progress means and everyone could do it the same way, it´s not a miracle. But there are a few players who prefer to complain about “the grind” and about the elitism in order to move Anet to lower the LIs. But you shouldn´t move Anet, you should move yourself. Really!

And a last few words: Collecting 150 LIs is a long way, but it definitely proves that you have the skill you should have if you want a LEGENDARY Armor. Everyone is able to collect a few LI by beating the easy bosses and everyone is able to buy the necessary components of the collections in case of doubt. But skill also means to be capable to replicate a good performance again and again. That´s what capacity means.
Am I a good basketballer if I´m able to hit the basketball basket from close distance a few times? Not really!
Am I a good basketballer if I´m able to reliable hit it 150 times from close, middle and long distance? Yes!

This seems to be VERY controversial.
First of all I congratulate all players who have been raiding that consistently that you are close to 150 LI.
That probably means that you have quite some Skill, a good consistent Group with only a few people coming and going and a bit of luck.
How many hours did you put into Raids?
I would like to know that because I wrote down the hours I put into Raids and ended up with about 250h that I spent in there and I could just get about 35 LI. Perhaps just because I had bad luck with some PUGs or guilds or perhaps even though I have 5 classes Raid ready and can hit 47-48k with my elemetalist I am not qualified enough to actually succeed in killing Raid Bosses.
My earlier point was that I don’t like the time Gate and the way of acquiring a LI.
During that time raiding I got like 2k Magnetite Shards because I hit the weekly Cap regularly.
So if I could trade like 100 of that Shards coming from desperate tries failing on some Raid Bosses for even one LI that I would Call fair.
I just wanted to post this to compare whether you guys would Call that “effort” (250h of consistent raiding during the weeks starting at the 17th November) or if you spent like 1000h to get those 150 LIs of yours.
I admit I am not the best Player but I semt many hours in the Raid Training room to succeed in maximising the damage of my Tempest, Rev or Necro.
Taking my example here that is the reason why I want the amount of LI lowered:
Raids means you are dependent on other players, only able to collect a special items on a weekly Basis (forcing you to spend a lot of time during the Week in Raids and thus really putting a lot of pressure on your schedule if you want that armor ), and accepting that GW2 at least now is struggeling to put in Endgame rewards that are not locked behind a let s not Call it Grind but repetitive aactions to be rewarded

ezd.6359:

Negative. Those who earn theirs kills using LFG spend more time and apply more efforts. While those who have static groups have all very easy. And in same time they will be able to craft armor while others will continue to spend hours, days and weeks in randoms lfg groups.

How is this a problem? This is literally true for any content in the game, why wouldn’t people that spend time and effort to get organized not get rewarded by being able to clear content in general more easy?

You know what I find insulting? The fact that you can buy every single legendary in the game just by having alot of money, no more precise to craft a legendary you need ridiculous amounts of gold. Now these players that have always excluded me with their gold grinds want to turn the raid requirement also in a gold grind. It excludes me and the vast majority of players from getting legendary stuff in a reasonable time frame. This puts up more barriers than raids ever will.

Also even without a network ( which I and many other people spend time on) you can pug raids fairly easy cause the community on average is more skilled than you make them out to be. Killed mathias yesterday with full PuGs that weren’t really experienced.

If 150 LI’s takes you longer cause you choose to spend your time in game inefficient and ineffective thats on you. Everybody has the capabilities to get a network going.

So the folk that are ok with 150 LI and a minimum 4 month time gate are ok with long time gates in general,and if 4 month is ok were does it stop,how long do you guys think is to long?would 6 months or even a full year not be all the more epic and legendary ?I suspect it is only ok to some of you because to you its not a gate,its past tense.

ezd.6359:

Negative. Those who earn theirs kills using LFG spend more time and apply more efforts. While those who have static groups have all very easy. And in same time they will be able to craft armor while others will continue to spend hours, days and weeks in randoms lfg groups.

I’m pretty sure most people who have a static group now started out in LFG and then slowly built their group from there by adding people to their friend list, what’s keeping you from doing the very same thing?

eldrin.6471:

So the folk that are ok with 150 LI and a minimum 4 month time gate are ok with long time gates in general,and if 4 month is ok were does it stop,how long do you guys think is to long?would 6 months or even a full year not be all the more epic and legendary ?I suspect it is only ok to some of you because to you its not a gate,its past tense.

I fully expected to spend a year’s worth of time gates to make a full set of Legendary armour, even with the 6 armour pieces being equivalent to 1 weapon in terms of cost. Anyone who didn’t expect a long time gate is deluding themselves.

To me these exceptionally long time gates might be an indication that future raids are way further off than some think,as in its all your getting better make it last.

… [Raids] require your raiding team to bring a high level of skill, strategy, and coordination in order to succeed
… and other similar arguments “create your own group”…

All these advices you provide only help GRIND FASTER. But i think it should not be a part of the game… ok may be in small amounts. But 150 li is just prohibitive wall for most of people. I don’t think everyone must be forced to create static groups just to grind 1 component for 4 months. Is it asian MMO or what? It is not fun at all.

Raids might be fun,learning all of the mechanics and defeating all 3 wings might be fun,doing that over again might be fun,but the more you do it the less fun it will become.and grinding out 150 insights for months will extract all pleasure from this raid for most people.

eldrin.6471:

Raids might be fun,learning all of the mechanics and defeating all 3 wings might be fun,doing that over again might be fun,but the more you do it the less fun it will become.and grinding out 150 insights for months will extract all pleasure from this raid for most people.

how are you to decide whats fun for other people, especially when you said that you dont even raid yourself but buy your clears. smh

It’s not fun for me so it can’t be fun for anyone else.

what if each armor required 10 LI instead of 25, and to replace the missing grind, each piece also required 5 of the decoration currency parts from 3 bosses. you know, gorseval tentacle pieces and such. so like in order to build your legendary, theres still a time gate, but its not anywhere near as kittening miserable, and you still need to be good enough at every boss to collect 10 of its unique drops (9×10 = 90 = 6×15 → for say boots/shoulders, collect 5 of each thingy from each 1st boss in wing 1/2/3. hats/gloves → collect 5 from each 2nd boss. coats/legs → collect 5 from each 3rd boss). then, wherever we need to have li to craft the thing, instead make a recipe for a gift requiring:

• 10 li
• 5×3 boss pieces

this is arguably harder to do than acquiring 150 li. by the time you get 60 li, you know what your doing and the only thing the other 90 take is time. there is no learning curve after even getting only 1-3 li from a particular boss. and in fact, you can learn 1-3 bosses and skip the rest. it just takes a really miserably long time. but if you gotta turn in a few of those unique drops from each boss, you are required to have a bit of mastery over each boss. you dont get your legendary coat without beating sabetha, matthias, and xera. etc etc. showing off a full set of armor means youve killed everything the raid has to offer multiple times and also done it quite a lot to get the 60 li. but it doesnt take 4 months minimum.

the potential is already here to make the journey anything but a simple time gate, and what i, personally, am asking for is not necessarily a reduction in the effort required to acquire the armor, but (again) i do not want to look back on the experience of crafting my armor and say “man, li were really kittening miserable and dragged out this experience” the way i already do for ad infinitum and ascension (and provisioner tokens).

ezd.6359:

… [Raids] require your raiding team to bring a high level of skill, strategy, and coordination in order to succeed
… and other similar arguments “create your own group”…

All these advices you provide only help GRIND FASTER. But i think it should not be a part of the game… ok may be in small amounts. But 150 li is just prohibitive wall for most of people. I don’t think everyone must be forced to create static groups just to grind 1 component for 4 months. Is it asian MMO or what? It is not fun at all.

No one forces you to create a group and “grind” insights. But you can´t expect to get the Legendary Armor then. If you´re not willing to bring the effort or to work on it a few month (and we really had enough time to collect plenty more insights than we need even before the Armor will be released), you just shouldn´t craft it.
You´d like to drive a Ferrari? Fine, earn the money and buy it. You´re not able or not willing to “grind” the money? Fine, drive a VW. Will it help you to ask Ferrari to lower the price, so that everyone could buy one? No, that´s not how it works.

It´s not the problem to learn the fights and find a “static group”. And your real problem isn´t that you couldn´t find a group, it´s the fact that you missed to bring the effort to create one and rather relied on Anet to set the requirements to any kind of skill as low as they always did. But they didn´t. They decided to introduce the one and only worthwhile long-term goal in this game, and they did it really well. And now you don´t want to spend as much time as those who brought effort right from the beginning and prefer whining in order to get Anet to lower the LIs.

And let me tell you something: If you try to pug all 150 LI, it maybe feels like grind. But as soon as you´ve created a nice, like-minded group of Raiders, it´s really funny and doesn´t feel like grind. I guess no one would call it a grind when you´re playing well designed, challenging content with a nice group a few hours a week. That´s the difference.

But oh, I forgot – the game is mean and Raiders are even meaner and it´s nearly impossible to find a group. So Anet should rather decrease the LIs and increase the required gold, so you can go farming the silverwastes and multiloot Tarir as always and being happy that you prevented a grind. That was a close one!

timson.4356:

ezd.6359:

… [Raids] require your raiding team to bring a high level of skill, strategy, and coordination in order to succeed
… and other similar arguments “create your own group”…

All these advices you provide only help GRIND FASTER. But i think it should not be a part of the game… ok may be in small amounts. But 150 li is just prohibitive wall for most of people. I don’t think everyone must be forced to create static groups just to grind 1 component for 4 months. Is it asian MMO or what? It is not fun at all.

No one forces you to create a group and “grind” insights. But you can´t expect to get the Legendary Armor then. If you´re not willing to bring the effort or to work on it a few month (and we really had enough time to collect plenty more insights than we need even before the Armor will be released), you just shouldn´t craft it…

Yes, devs (and you) ask me to create a group if i want to craft armor. This means you agree it is pain in the * without static group. Logic, no?

I answer – i don’t think it is a good idea to force people to create static groups.

timson.4356:

It´s not the problem to learn the fights and find a “static group”. And your real problem isn´t that you couldn´t find a group, it´s the fact that you missed to bring the effort to create one and rather relied on Anet to set the requirements to any kind of skill as low as they always did.

Is it some kind of the armor achievements list “create a static group”? It should not be a part of user skills test.

insanemaniac, i think your idea is hard to implement. It is more easy (and more fair) just sell li for shards like 15/each. This means even if you fail long enough with randoms you can buy li. Shards are also limited == time gate, but you can farm it even with bad groups.

In the process of getting the 150 LI, you can get SIX, yes SIX legendary items. What number was that again? SIX. It really comes down to 2.8 WEEKS per legendary item if you clear all bosses. This will get even easier as they add more raids as they have given no indication that each raid will have its own unique insight.

ezd.6359:

insanemaniac, i think your idea is hard to implement. It is more easy (and more fair) just sell li for shards like 15/each. This means even if you fail long enough with randoms you can buy li. Shards are also limited == time gate, but you can farm it even with bad groups.

You´re really cute ^^

Oh, Anet – I´d like to get a few more Ad Infinitums. But I really don´t like to grind and I hate it to build a group. And high tier Fractals are pretty difficult. So please sell Ad Infintum for Fractal Relics like 15-20/each. This sounds fair i guess

Ayrilana.1396:

In the process of getting the 150 LI, you can get SIX, yes SIX legendary items. What number was that again? SIX. It really comes down to 2.8 WEEKS per legendary item if you clear all bosses. This will get even easier as they add more raids as they have given no indication that each raid will have its own unique insight.

Legendary armour will be equivalent to one legendary weapon not 6,but you use the term item because you know that. and thats a big IF you clear all 9 bosses. anet have never once reused a currency,why would they do it this time.
No one playing this game likes long time gates,and this is the longest yet,sure you and your chums are ok with a time gate that wont affect you.

eldrin.6471:

Ayrilana.1396:

In the process of getting the 150 LI, you can get SIX, yes SIX legendary items. What number was that again? SIX. It really comes down to 2.8 WEEKS per legendary item if you clear all bosses. This will get even easier as they add more raids as they have given no indication that each raid will have its own unique insight.

Legendary armour will be equivalent to one legendary weapon not 6,but you use the term item because you know that. and thats a big IF you clear all 9 bosses. anet have never once reused a currency,why would they do it this time.
No one playing this game likes long time gates,and this is the longest yet,sure you and your chums are ok with a time gate that wont affect you.

A legendary armor set is only equivalent by cost. You get six pieces of legendary armor. I use the term item because you can get them separately. You equip them separately as well. Take a look at it. Do you equip armor by piece or as a set in this game? It is by piece. You are also able to acquire legendary armor by piece and you convert the precursors to legendary by piece.

There’s a difference between map currency and insights. I’ve very far from get legendary armor and I have zero issue with it being set at 25 LI per piece.

Were is the functionality of single pieces of legendary armour,you dont get that till you got the set.at the end of the day it is anets decision and we all need live with that.
They launched Hot and a lot of players complain about grind and time gates,they made it less grindy and reduced or removed the time gates.do you think players dont like grind and time gates in expansions but like it in raids.no thats silly.raids only cater to a small percentage of players so there wont be the same number of complaints,but as new players try out raids and come to realise the time gate and grind put in front of the rewards complaints will grow steadily.

eldrin.6471:

Were is the functionality of single pieces of legendary armour,you dont get that till you got the set.at the end of the day it is anets decision and we all need live with that.
They launched Hot and a lot of players complain about grind and time gates,they made it less grindy.do you think players dont like grind and time gates in expansions but like it in raids.no thats silly.raids only cater to a small percentage of players so there wont be the same number of complaints,but as new players try out raids and come to realise the time gate and grind put in front of the rewards complaints will grow steadily.

Functionality is no different than how legendary weapon and the two backpacks are right now. The stats are no different than ascended. Currently when you switch stats on the backpack and weapons, you have to swap out the ascended armor you have to match the new stat set selection. The functionality of legendary armor isn’t reduced.

People don’t want grind but they don’t realize that is what keeps players doing content and thus keeping MMO’s alive. No developer can roll out enough content to keep players consistently engaged and busy. Grind has been a staple in many MMO’s and even RPG’s themselves. If people dislike them then perhaps they’re playing the wrong genre?

And if all the players that didnt like grind and time gates in hot all moved to a different genre instead of complaining for change on the forums were would we be?
OF course content needs a lvl of grind and time gates,its the sheer scale of it with 150 insights and 4 months to maybe a year for some players that is the problem.people play games including this one to have fun.get the balance wrong you remove the fun,remove the fun you loose the players.game over.

DutchRiders.2871:

ezd.6359:

Negative. Those who earn theirs kills using LFG spend more time and apply more efforts. While those who have static groups have all very easy. And in same time they will be able to craft armor while others will continue to spend hours, days and weeks in randoms lfg groups.

How is this a problem? This is literally true for any content in the game, why wouldn’t people that spend time and effort to get organized not get rewarded by being able to clear content in general more easy?

You know what I find insulting? The fact that you can buy every single legendary in the game just by having alot of money, no more precise to craft a legendary you need ridiculous amounts of gold. Now these players that have always excluded me with their gold grinds want to turn the raid requirement also in a gold grind. It excludes me and the vast majority of players from getting legendary stuff in a reasonable time frame. This puts up more barriers than raids ever will.

Thought this comment by DutchRiders was one of the better counter points to this discussion.
Trying not to weigh in to much on this because there is so much we don’t know yet.
I’m an optimist though, if Anet says 150 then 150 it will be. It seems most of the time Anet has done right by their players. We may not agree with some of the things they do at first but usually by the time it’s all said and done we can see why they did what they did.
I think I"m more aggravated with doing Gerent 90 times for all 3 sets. Can’t count the times I joined the lfg meta to switch to a new map only to find 6 people on it. ugg. But then maybe we wont have to do it 90 times and I’m saving all these up for nothing. I don’t know exactly how those recipes are going to work.

Just super excited about the armor though. I love the idea of having to earn something from playing and skill instead of buying it.

eldrin.6471:

And if all the players that didnt like grind and time gates in hot all moved to a different genre instead of complaining for change on the forums were would we be?
OF course content needs a lvl of grind and time gates,its the sheer scale of it with 150 insights and 4 months to maybe a year for some players that is the problem.people play games including this one to have fun.get the balance wrong you remove the fun,remove the fun you loose the players.game over.

It is 150 insights for six pieces of legendary armor. It’s only 25 LI for a single piece.

Oh thats awesome news,does that mean if we work on the bits individually it wont take us in excess of 4 months to get our legendary armour. that could also solve a lot of problems in real life,buy one shoe and in a few weeks when we got more money buy the other.your a genius.but seriously you do understand its a set.you breaking in down in to 6 parts dont change anything.