Guild Wars 2

Can we stop with the false narrative that LS3 directly followed the Forsaken Thicket Lore?

Thanks!

Sykper.6583:

Can we stop with the false narrative that LS3 directly followed the Forsaken Thicket Lore?

Thanks!

After the first episode of LS3 I was like: “so what exactly did we do in the Raid?”
It’s as if it didn’t happen at all so I don’t know where the comments about Raids leading to the next story come from.

maddoctor.2738:

Sykper.6583:

Can we stop with the false narrative that LS3 directly followed the Forsaken Thicket Lore?

Thanks!

After the first episode of LS3 I was like: “so what exactly did we do in the Raid?”
It’s as if it didn’t happen at all so I don’t know where the comments about Raids leading to the next story come from.

It came from people wanting to prove their point of “Anet only gives content to 5% of player instead of me (errr us) the community”. A point that was decided upon wing 1 release (when the map showed it was close to the bloodstone) and strengthened at the end of wing 2 where there was a video of the White Mantle. Combined with the story content break, people started to run in circle and say they bought the expansion but they got fooled and devs only care about raiders now and …. and well it’s called internet a.k.a Armageddon on screen while comfortably seated on a chair everyday.

Maybe the best move would have been to release raid after LS3 ep 1. It would not change the raid experience and story and this tale of it being an intro would not be a thing.

maddoctor.2738:

Sykper.6583:

Can we stop with the false narrative that LS3 directly followed the Forsaken Thicket Lore?

Thanks!

After the first episode of LS3 I was like: “so what exactly did we do in the Raid?”
It’s as if it didn’t happen at all so I don’t know where the comments about Raids leading to the next story come from.

We uhhhm…. killed some People with no real Consequence for the Story. I mean, what happened in LS3 Episode 1 would have happened regardless of what happened in the Forsaken Thicket. So yeah no impact from that.
I also don’t know where the Comments come from especially after reading the Lore scattered in Bloodstone Fen.

I hope future raid wings are harder, current raids are too easy. Low manning raids should be impossible since we have no item spiral.

Blaeys.3102:

maddoctor.2738:

Maybe the Raid will be inside the Foundry!

As long as they insist on the restrictive raid model they currently employ, they really need to stay away from popular lore-based landmarks/settings/scenarios – and definitely stay away from anything to do with the story the current game is trying to tell.

I realize that is an unpopular opinion among a subset of the community, but it is the situation they have created for themselves if they want to avoid alienating or frustrating a sizeable number of their players.

So it has to be a 10 man fractal? Totally disconnected from anything to do with Tyria and with no real story behind it? Sounds boring.

Blaeys.3102:

maddoctor.2738:

Maybe the Raid will be inside the Foundry!

As long as they insist on the restrictive raid model they currently employ, they really need to stay away from popular lore-based landmarks/settings/scenarios – and definitely stay away from anything to do with the story the current game is trying to tell.

I realize that is an unpopular opinion among a subset of the community, but it is the situation they have created for themselves if they want to avoid alienating or frustrating a sizeable number of their players.

Why? Look at Forsaken Thicket. The raiders roleplayed as a group of mercenaries that attempted to stop Lazarus Resurrection and failed. It tied into the current Living Story without impacting the Living Story in any way. Key example of the raid impacting the Living Story: Having Lazarus the Dire as a raid boss would be a big no, no.

Why would this alienate a sizeable number of players? It does not impact new GW players, Raiders, or any player who does not care about the story of GW, which is definitely the largest subset of players in the game. Sure, it may alienate a group of GW1 lorehounds who cannot complete the raid, but that is a minority of a minority. And while they may be vocal, they have plenty of options in terms of free cleared instances, in game dialogues and story journals, and out of game youtube videos for catching up on any lore they missed in the raid.

So my point is it would not alienate players to have the raid tie in to the current direction of the Living Story as long as the raid does not impact that direction.

runeblade.7514:

The game can be challenging without alienating players. I wasn’t required to have a set build in Fractals or Aetherblade. I wasn’t required to show off how many Pristine Fractal Relics or something like that.

Neither Fractals and/or Aetherblade are difficult; however, it CAN be made difficult by partying with players who have NO idea what they are doing. I’m guessing you fall in the latter category.

If you wanted something that turned up a difficulty a bit in the fractal world – look at Swamp, and then look at player reaction. They made Bloomhunger more challenging, but all the fractal puggers hate it now.

So no, the game cannot be challenging without alienating some players, because there are many players who just want to do “quick and easy runs” without having the fundamental understandings of how to play their class properly or understanding the encounter.

Sykper.6583:

Can we stop with the false narrative that LS3 directly followed the Forsaken Thicket Lore?

Thanks!

LS3 didn’t directly follow the Forsaken Thicket Lore, but Forsaken Thicket Lore played a part in the follow up LS3 chapter.

If that makes any sense. There is an NPC that does a quick recapture of the FT Lore, and if you did the raid, you also know about Lazarus without waiting on LS3 to come out.

IMO, this was very well executed, they introduced enough lore in the raid, but not too much to overshadow the LS3 story.

DrEckers.2039:

Blaeys.3102:

maddoctor.2738:

Maybe the Raid will be inside the Foundry!

As long as they insist on the restrictive raid model they currently employ, they really need to stay away from popular lore-based landmarks/settings/scenarios – and definitely stay away from anything to do with the story the current game is trying to tell.

I realize that is an unpopular opinion among a subset of the community, but it is the situation they have created for themselves if they want to avoid alienating or frustrating a sizeable number of their players.

Why? Look at Forsaken Thicket. The raiders roleplayed as a group of mercenaries that attempted to stop Lazarus Resurrection and failed. It tied into the current Living Story without impacting the Living Story in any way. Key example of the raid impacting the Living Story: Having Lazarus the Dire as a raid boss would be a big no, no.

Why would this alienate a sizeable number of players? It does not impact new GW players, Raiders, or any player who does not care about the story of GW, which is definitely the largest subset of players in the game. Sure, it may alienate a group of GW1 lorehounds who cannot complete the raid, but that is a minority of a minority. And while they may be vocal, they have plenty of options in terms of free cleared instances, in game dialogues and story journals, and out of game youtube videos for catching up on any lore they missed in the raid.

So my point is it would not alienate players to have the raid tie in to the current direction of the Living Story as long as the raid does not impact that direction.

It was a bit more than a tie in. It was the player’s introduction to the story arc and primary antagonists.

Story is an important part of the GW2 experience for a lot of players (probably more than you think). Event those who say they don’t care about story would probably feel less engaged if the story wasn’t there.

If part of that story is unavailable (for whatever reason), then that is a bad design.

Other games can get away with this because they make provisions for players of many different skill levels, playstyles and interests. If Anet insists on setting raids to the side for a subset of PVEers, then they definitely should not include story that the rest of the community would find engaging or that ties in with the main story (and DEFINITELY not if it serves as the introduction of the antagonists and current story arc).

Blaeys.3102:

DrEckers.2039:

Blaeys.3102:

maddoctor.2738:

Maybe the Raid will be inside the Foundry!

As long as they insist on the restrictive raid model they currently employ, they really need to stay away from popular lore-based landmarks/settings/scenarios – and definitely stay away from anything to do with the story the current game is trying to tell.

I realize that is an unpopular opinion among a subset of the community, but it is the situation they have created for themselves if they want to avoid alienating or frustrating a sizeable number of their players.

Why? Look at Forsaken Thicket. The raiders roleplayed as a group of mercenaries that attempted to stop Lazarus Resurrection and failed. It tied into the current Living Story without impacting the Living Story in any way. Key example of the raid impacting the Living Story: Having Lazarus the Dire as a raid boss would be a big no, no.

Why would this alienate a sizeable number of players? It does not impact new GW players, Raiders, or any player who does not care about the story of GW, which is definitely the largest subset of players in the game. Sure, it may alienate a group of GW1 lorehounds who cannot complete the raid, but that is a minority of a minority. And while they may be vocal, they have plenty of options in terms of free cleared instances, in game dialogues and story journals, and out of game youtube videos for catching up on any lore they missed in the raid.

So my point is it would not alienate players to have the raid tie in to the current direction of the Living Story as long as the raid does not impact that direction.

It was a bit more than a tie in. It was the player’s introduction to the story arc and primary antagonists.

Did we see Caudecus?
Did we see Lazarus the Dire?

Were the events in Forsaken Thicket remotely related to Bloodstone Fen activity outside of the well-known use of Bloodstone by White Mantle? Were we even aware that was our next stop?

Nope. None of the things you mentioned were part of the raid story. Try again.

Sykper.6583:

Blaeys.3102:

DrEckers.2039:

Blaeys.3102:

maddoctor.2738:

Maybe the Raid will be inside the Foundry!

As long as they insist on the restrictive raid model they currently employ, they really need to stay away from popular lore-based landmarks/settings/scenarios – and definitely stay away from anything to do with the story the current game is trying to tell.

I realize that is an unpopular opinion among a subset of the community, but it is the situation they have created for themselves if they want to avoid alienating or frustrating a sizeable number of their players.

Why? Look at Forsaken Thicket. The raiders roleplayed as a group of mercenaries that attempted to stop Lazarus Resurrection and failed. It tied into the current Living Story without impacting the Living Story in any way. Key example of the raid impacting the Living Story: Having Lazarus the Dire as a raid boss would be a big no, no.

Why would this alienate a sizeable number of players? It does not impact new GW players, Raiders, or any player who does not care about the story of GW, which is definitely the largest subset of players in the game. Sure, it may alienate a group of GW1 lorehounds who cannot complete the raid, but that is a minority of a minority. And while they may be vocal, they have plenty of options in terms of free cleared instances, in game dialogues and story journals, and out of game youtube videos for catching up on any lore they missed in the raid.

So my point is it would not alienate players to have the raid tie in to the current direction of the Living Story as long as the raid does not impact that direction.

It was a bit more than a tie in. It was the player’s introduction to the story arc and primary antagonists.

Did we see Caudecus?
Did we see Lazarus the Dire?

Were the events in Forsaken Thicket remotely related to Bloodstone Fen activity outside of the well-known use of Bloodstone by White Mantle? Were we even aware that was our next stop?

Nope. None of the things you mentioned were part of the raid story. Try again.

Many of the activities in Bloodstone Fen and Season Three were a direct result of what happened within the raid.

Even the game itself recognizes this – when you talk to the NPC in Bloodstone Fen (which you are asked to do as part of season three) and ask him to “replay” the White Mantle’s origin, he shows the cutscene from the raid.

I honestly do think the devs think this acceptable because other MMOs use raids as part of the story. However, it only works there because those raids offer multiple levels of accessibility that encompass more playstyles and skill levels. The current raiding model in GW2 definitely does not (something that needs to be fixed, imo – especially if they want to tell parts of the story through the raids).

Blaeys.3102:

Sykper.6583:

Blaeys.3102:

DrEckers.2039:

Blaeys.3102:

maddoctor.2738:

Maybe the Raid will be inside the Foundry!

As long as they insist on the restrictive raid model they currently employ, they really need to stay away from popular lore-based landmarks/settings/scenarios – and definitely stay away from anything to do with the story the current game is trying to tell.

I realize that is an unpopular opinion among a subset of the community, but it is the situation they have created for themselves if they want to avoid alienating or frustrating a sizeable number of their players.

Why? Look at Forsaken Thicket. The raiders roleplayed as a group of mercenaries that attempted to stop Lazarus Resurrection and failed. It tied into the current Living Story without impacting the Living Story in any way. Key example of the raid impacting the Living Story: Having Lazarus the Dire as a raid boss would be a big no, no.

Why would this alienate a sizeable number of players? It does not impact new GW players, Raiders, or any player who does not care about the story of GW, which is definitely the largest subset of players in the game. Sure, it may alienate a group of GW1 lorehounds who cannot complete the raid, but that is a minority of a minority. And while they may be vocal, they have plenty of options in terms of free cleared instances, in game dialogues and story journals, and out of game youtube videos for catching up on any lore they missed in the raid.

So my point is it would not alienate players to have the raid tie in to the current direction of the Living Story as long as the raid does not impact that direction.

It was a bit more than a tie in. It was the player’s introduction to the story arc and primary antagonists.

Did we see Caudecus?
Did we see Lazarus the Dire?

Were the events in Forsaken Thicket remotely related to Bloodstone Fen activity outside of the well-known use of Bloodstone by White Mantle? Were we even aware that was our next stop?

Nope. None of the things you mentioned were part of the raid story. Try again.

Many of the activities in Bloodstone Fen and Season Three were a direct result of what happened within the raid.

Even the game itself recognizes this – when you talk to the NPC in Bloodstone Fen (which you are asked to do as part of season three) and ask him to “replay” the White Mantle’s origin, he shows the cutscene from the raid.

Not completely accurate, activities in the Bloodstone Fen were happening regardless of the circumstances in the raid, there was communication between the two groups certainly, but as you would have noticed if you played the Living Story, the White Mantle activities in the Forsaken Thicket were from the other half of the White Mantle that were trying to bring back Lazarus.

The result, whether you did the raid or did not, was the same. It is precisely why after defeating Xera, Lazarus’s condition was in question. Why do you think our characters mentioned the possibility that we killed Lazarus by interrupting Xera’s little plan? That he might have been destroyed when we beat Xera?

What it came down to, is the same result that we came into the raid to begin with, is Lazarus dead or alive? Nobody knew until the first episode, where everyone is on the same footing.

This is also why Bennett’s ‘nod’ to raiders saving him from Matthias doesn’t break the story either, if you hadn’t raided at all what you would understand from both Bennett and the notes found in the Fen was that a group of mercenaries directly interfered with the Forsaken Thicket, they promptly saved Bennett, and some of the subtle events that transpired in the raid would be left unknown. If you did raid, the same messages apply, Bennett will mention that it was you and your allies who saved him, but nothing else.

If you can’t understand why the above renders the raid for a main-story perspective utterly meaningless, I do not know what else to tell you.

Sykper.6583:

Not completely accurate, activities in the Bloodstone Fen were happening regardless of the circumstances in the raid, there was communication between the two groups certainly, but as you would have noticed if you played the Living Story, the White Mantle activities in the Forsaken Thicket were from the other half of the White Mantle that were trying to bring back Lazarus.

The result, whether you did the raid or did not, was the same. It is precisely why after defeating Xera, Lazarus’s condition was in question. Why do you think our characters mentioned the possibility that we killed Lazarus by interrupting Xera’s little plan? That he might have been destroyed when we beat Xera?

What it came down to, is the same result that we came into the raid to begin with, is Lazarus dead or alive? Nobody knew until the first episode, where everyone is on the same footing.

This is also why Bennett’s ‘nod’ to raiders saving him from Matthias doesn’t break the story either, if you hadn’t raided at all what you would understand from both Bennett and the notes found in the Fen was that a group of mercenaries directly interfered with the Forsaken Thicket, they promptly saved Bennett, and some of the subtle events that transpired in the raid would be left unknown. If you did raid, the same messages apply, Bennett will mention that it was you and your allies who saved him, but nothing else.

If you can’t understand why the above renders the raid for a main-story perspective utterly meaningless, I do not know what else to tell you.

The raising of these questions – the tension and mystery they create (however small) – it’s all part of the storytelling process.

Can you enjoy Season Three if you didn’t experience the raid? Of course you can. That doesn’t mean that the raid story wasn’t part of the current story arc (of course it was).

When you give that story experience to a small percentage of players, those players who are excluded from it have every right to feel a bit left out. With one raid, it may not be as evident, but if the trend continues, I can guarantee it will be. That is exactly how you make players feel less important than others and, eventually, disenfranchised from the story the game is trying to tell.

I agree that Forsaken Thicket is a just small piece of the story, but it is still a piece (and in this instance, the first piece) of this particular story – and something that many more players would like to experience for themselves (without having to significantly change their playstyles).

Raiding in GW2 is far too exclusionary and divisive. Story is one place where this is clearly evident (imo).

Blaeys.3102:

Sykper.6583:

Not completely accurate, activities in the Bloodstone Fen were happening regardless of the circumstances in the raid, there was communication between the two groups certainly, but as you would have noticed if you played the Living Story, the White Mantle activities in the Forsaken Thicket were from the other half of the White Mantle that were trying to bring back Lazarus.

The result, whether you did the raid or did not, was the same. It is precisely why after defeating Xera, Lazarus’s condition was in question. Why do you think our characters mentioned the possibility that we killed Lazarus by interrupting Xera’s little plan? That he might have been destroyed when we beat Xera?

What it came down to, is the same result that we came into the raid to begin with, is Lazarus dead or alive? Nobody knew until the first episode, where everyone is on the same footing.

This is also why Bennett’s ‘nod’ to raiders saving him from Matthias doesn’t break the story either, if you hadn’t raided at all what you would understand from both Bennett and the notes found in the Fen was that a group of mercenaries directly interfered with the Forsaken Thicket, they promptly saved Bennett, and some of the subtle events that transpired in the raid would be left unknown. If you did raid, the same messages apply, Bennett will mention that it was you and your allies who saved him, but nothing else.

If you can’t understand why the above renders the raid for a main-story perspective utterly meaningless, I do not know what else to tell you.

The raising of these questions – the tension and mystery they create (however small) – it’s all part of the storytelling process.

Stop. There’s no questions being risen, you are not understanding me here. The raid’s story is insignificant and does not impact anything the main story that happened in the Fen. The events would have occurred even if the Forsaken Thicket never existed. That’s the difference.

Blaeys.3102:

Can you enjoy Season Three if you didn’t experience the raid? Of course you can. That doesn’t mean that the raid story wasn’t part of the current story arc (of course it was).

Just because you think it was doesn’t mean it actually was. Please read my post rather than quoting it.

Blaeys.3102:

I agree that Forsaken Thicket is a just small piece of the story, but it is still a piece (and in this instance, the first piece) of this particular story – and something that many more players would like to experience for themselves (without having to significantly change their playstyles).

I never actually agreed that Forsaken Thicket was part of the main story, it is actually side-story. An incident that occurred between the events of Mordremoth’s death and the Living Story Episode 1. Irrelevant to the main story of the direct events that happened in the Bloodstone Fen, but alluded to like a small tale.

I am starting to take a little bit of offense if you continue to ignore my points. If you want to continue the discussion at the very least argue against why you believe the Forsaken Thicket story is proven to be part of the main story even though I pointed out why it is not.

Sykper.6583:

Did we see Caudecus?
Did we see Lazarus the Dire?

Did the forum know, based only on the raid lore, that the Lazarus will likely be making an appearance soon?
When he appeared in the story, i wasn’t surprised in the least, because i have already been warned (thanks to raids) this might happen.

Yeah, not even remotely related, right…

Sykper.6583:

Blaeys.3102:

Sykper.6583:

Not completely accurate, activities in the Bloodstone Fen were happening regardless of the circumstances in the raid, there was communication between the two groups certainly, but as you would have noticed if you played the Living Story, the White Mantle activities in the Forsaken Thicket were from the other half of the White Mantle that were trying to bring back Lazarus.

The result, whether you did the raid or did not, was the same. It is precisely why after defeating Xera, Lazarus’s condition was in question. Why do you think our characters mentioned the possibility that we killed Lazarus by interrupting Xera’s little plan? That he might have been destroyed when we beat Xera?

What it came down to, is the same result that we came into the raid to begin with, is Lazarus dead or alive? Nobody knew until the first episode, where everyone is on the same footing.

This is also why Bennett’s ‘nod’ to raiders saving him from Matthias doesn’t break the story either, if you hadn’t raided at all what you would understand from both Bennett and the notes found in the Fen was that a group of mercenaries directly interfered with the Forsaken Thicket, they promptly saved Bennett, and some of the subtle events that transpired in the raid would be left unknown. If you did raid, the same messages apply, Bennett will mention that it was you and your allies who saved him, but nothing else.

If you can’t understand why the above renders the raid for a main-story perspective utterly meaningless, I do not know what else to tell you.

The raising of these questions – the tension and mystery they create (however small) – it’s all part of the storytelling process.

Stop. There’s no questions being risen, you are not understanding me here. The raid’s story is insignificant and does not impact anything the main story that happened in the Fen. The events would have occurred even if the Forsaken Thicket never existed. That’s the difference.

Blaeys.3102:

Can you enjoy Season Three if you didn’t experience the raid? Of course you can. That doesn’t mean that the raid story wasn’t part of the current story arc (of course it was).

Just because you think it was doesn’t mean it actually was. Please read my post rather than quoting it.

Blaeys.3102:

I agree that Forsaken Thicket is a just small piece of the story, but it is still a piece (and in this instance, the first piece) of this particular story – and something that many more players would like to experience for themselves (without having to significantly change their playstyles).

I never actually agreed that Forsaken Thicket was part of the main story, it is actually side-story. An incident that occurred between the events of Mordremoth’s death and the Living Story Episode 1. Irrelevant to the main story of the direct events that happened in the Bloodstone Fen, but alluded to like a small tale.

I am starting to take a little bit of offense if you continue to ignore my points. If you want to continue the discussion at the very least argue against why you believe the Forsaken Thicket story is proven to be part of the main story even though I pointed out why it is not.

I definitely don’t mean any personal offense. I understand that you believe the stories are 100% unrelated. I feel differently – for the reasons I have listed.

I am also willing to accept that this is a fairly subjective topic and where the acceptable line is drawn varies from person to person. That doesn’t change the fact that I (and others) do see the raid as part of the current story arc – and as a part that should have (imo) been more accessible to a greater percentage of the population. I do not see it as irrelevant.

Again, different people will have different opinions on this topic. My opinion was never meant to include all players. But this is something I feel they mishandled and, more important – something I feel will be detrimental to the game if they mishandle in the same way in the future. It doesn’t mean I’m ignoring what you believe to be true – it just means that I believe something different.

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

Did we see Caudecus?
Did we see Lazarus the Dire?

Did the forum know, based only on the raid lore, that the Lazarus will likely be making an appearance soon?
When he appeared in the story, i wasn’t surprised in the least, because i have already been warned (thanks to raids) this might happen.

Yeah, not even remotely related, right…

It’s also entirely possible that they could have killed him off from the explosion of the Bloodstone Magic. We never had a confirmation in the raid that Lazarus lived or died. We started with a hunch, we ended with the same hunch.

Just because the speculators hinted that he could have come back, there’s was an opportunity that he could have been destroyed when we killed Xera. That probably could have made some actual lore hounds extremely angry, and rightfully so.

Heck, Lazarus could have come out in a much later episode, or never appear. My point is that again, just because something is alluded to does not mean it is a substantial part of the story.

Blaeys.3102:

I definitely don’t mean any personal offense. I understand that you believe the stories are 100% unrelated. I feel differently – for the reasons I have listed.

I am also willing to accept that this is a fairly subjective topic and where the acceptable line is drawn varies from person to person. That doesn’t change the fact that I (and others) do see the raid as part of the current story arc – and as a part that should have (imo) been more accessible to a greater percentage of the population. I do not see it as irrelevant.

Again, different people will have different opinions on this topic. My opinion was never meant to include all players. But this is something I feel they mishandled and, more important – something I feel will be detrimental to the game if they mishandle in the same way in the future. It doesn’t mean I’m ignoring what you believe to be true – it just means that I believe something different.

This isn’t a matter of belief, you aren’t allowed to dismiss facts as opinions. There’s a confirmed reality of the events happening in the Forsaken Thicket regardless of our intervention, there was nothing we could have done to shape the end result one way or another.

Accepting that the story can be interpreted one way or another is very similar to accepting the view that the Earth is Flat, that facts are not true. We all can ‘perceive’ the horizon and thus justify the Flat Earth reasoning, but there is overwhelming evidence that supports otherwise. It renders holding the opinion that the Earth is still flat illogical.

I am done with this particular topic at this point unless there is a clear objective point made that definitively shows the Raid is directly tied to the main story. All the points so far being made though, points that there is no direct tie-in.

Sykper.6583:

Blaeys.3102:

I definitely don’t mean any personal offense. I understand that you believe the stories are 100% unrelated. I feel differently – for the reasons I have listed.

I am also willing to accept that this is a fairly subjective topic and where the acceptable line is drawn varies from person to person. That doesn’t change the fact that I (and others) do see the raid as part of the current story arc – and as a part that should have (imo) been more accessible to a greater percentage of the population. I do not see it as irrelevant.

Again, different people will have different opinions on this topic. My opinion was never meant to include all players. But this is something I feel they mishandled and, more important – something I feel will be detrimental to the game if they mishandle in the same way in the future. It doesn’t mean I’m ignoring what you believe to be true – it just means that I believe something different.

This isn’t a matter of belief, you aren’t allowed to dismiss facts as opinions. There’s a confirmed reality of the events happening in the Forsaken Thicket regardless of our intervention, there was nothing we could have done to shape the end result one way or another.

Accepting that the story can be interpreted one way or another is very similar to accepting the view that the Earth is Flat, that facts are not true. We all can ‘perceive’ the horizon and thus justify the Flat Earth reasoning, but there is overwhelming evidence that supports otherwise. It renders holding the opinion that the Earth is still flat illogical.

I am done with this particular topic at this point unless there is a clear objective point made that definitively shows the Raid is directly tied to the main story. All the points so far being made though, points that there is no direct tie-in.

You’re telling us your opinion is fact and comparing it to something that has nothing to do with it to try and justify.

Like I said, you can enjoy LS 3 without having played the raid, but it is hard to say that the two aren’t dealing with the same characters, setting and (yes) storyline. They are. The conflict with the white mantle (the NPC in bloodstone fen even calls the raid cutscene the introduction to them), the concept of drawing magic from/messing with a bloodstone (in a modern game setting), the idea of bloodstone magic corrupting people, the White Mantle trying to gain power and resurrect Mursaat – these are all things that became a part of the storyline in the raid – and were expanded upon in Living Story 3/Bloodstone Fen. You can say that isn’t true, but I (and others) believe it is. I also believe that the events in Bloodstone Fen (and LS3) are, at least in part, a result of what happened in the raid.

So yes, it is a matter of opinion – it is what I believe to be true, just as what you believe to be true is your opinion. As I said, people draw that line in different places.

Here’s the best indicator that proves the raid is inconsequential to the story.

Pretend the Forsaken Thicket never existed. Bloodstone Fen and the Living Story Season 3 Episodes play out exactly as they should have. No content lost, the notes still refer to key figures like Matthias who we will never meet, so on and so forth. Bennett will still give you the background on the non-existent raid area that’s somewhere nearby that no player will ever reach, but a group did go there and discover the events. He won’t ever actually refer to you being his savior as a nod for raiders who went into this raid, but just another group that did it.

Does the Living Story and Lore hold up 100% without Forsaken Thicket?

The answer will be yes, players might be curious still, there would be more intrique, perhaps speculation about what lies North of Verdant Brink. Hell we can go through a few dozen scenarios, maybe the community would consider that we would be heading north instead of south for the next map.

But, the Living Story lore does not need Forsaken Thicket, there are no glaring holes in the story, even things like the Lazarus Reveal would still be hinted through the notes we find in the Bloodstone Fen, and what Squad Leader Bennett mentions.

You are welcome to believe what you want, but the fact is that Bloodstone Fen still holds up 100% if Forsaken Thicket never existed.

Sykper.6583:

We never had a confirmation in the raid that Lazarus lived or died. We started with a hunch, we ended with the same hunch.

No, we didn’t. But if the raid story was really not related, we’d all be surprised by his appearance. Or at least some of us would be, and others would be a little bit more surprised than they were.

The hints in the raid were strong enough however, that when he appeared in the story, he wasn’t a surprise for anyone that was paying even cursory attention.
Raid ended up being a huge spoiler for LS3. Hardly something that’s unrelated.
And for everyone that wasn’t raiding, it was exactly that – a spoiler. Not part of the story you played yourself, but a huge reveal you learned because other people saw something you didn’t.

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

We never had a confirmation in the raid that Lazarus lived or died. We started with a hunch, we ended with the same hunch.

No, we didn’t. But if the raid story was really not related, we’d all be surprised by his appearance. Or at least some of us would be, and others would be a little bit more surprised than they were.

The hints in the raid were strong enough however, that when he appeared in the story, he wasn’t a surprise for anyone that was paying even cursory attention.
Raid ended up being a huge spoiler for LS3. Hardly something that’s unrelated.
And for everyone that wasn’t raiding, it was exactly that – a spoiler. Not part of the story you played yourself, but a huge reveal you learned because other people saw something you didn’t.

Please read my last post. We would have gotten a lot of hints just from the events in Bloodstone Fen. The very moment they revealed the White Mantle, people would have started speculating about the last Mursaat. Reading the notes, talking with Bennett would have given everyone just as much spoiler and surprise than the raid itself.

Nothing would have changed.

There’s always should be a concern about raids crossing the line with lore and content, I don’t intend on dismissing the possibility it could happen. What I am trying to get across is that it has not happened, and that Arenanet definitely pulled a few clever narrative tricks to ensure the lore stayed intact with Forsaken Thicket and Bloodstone Fen.

I can only hope they keep up that level of ‘side-story’ and never make the mistake of having them inter-twine directly. But yes, this discussion has more or less diverted heavily off-topic.

I suspect we will see one more solitary raid wing in the coming months. I would say even as early as the next patch after Rising Flames, so in a few more months.

Astralporing.1957:

The hints in the raid were strong enough however, that when he appeared in the story, he wasn’t a surprise for anyone that was paying even cursory attention.
Raid ended up being a huge spoiler for LS3. Hardly something that’s unrelated.
And for everyone that wasn’t raiding, it was exactly that – a spoiler. Not part of the story you played yourself, but a huge reveal you learned because other people saw something you didn’t.

Then don’t read spoilers. Problem solved.

The way they did the Raid is exactly how all future raids will/should be. Dropping hints/spoilers as to what will happen next. Don’t read the spoilers if you don’t want to be spoiled, really if you only played the game there was absolutely nothing that you missed if you didn’t complete the Raid.

Sykper.6583:

Please read my last post. We would have gotten a lot of hints just from the events in Bloodstone Fen.

You mean, the area most people start to explore after doing the story there?

maddoctor.2738:

Don’t read the spoilers if you don’t want to be spoiled

So i should stop reading forums completely? Because the spoiler was right on the front page of the general forum for everyone to see at that time… And i don’t mean inside the post. It was in the post’s title.
That’s what i meant when i said that everyone that was paying even slightest attention would have seen it.

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

Don’t read the spoilers if you don’t want to be spoiled

You mean i should stop reading forum completely? Because the spoiler was right on the front page of the general forum for everyone to see at that time…

Which one? You’ve never watched a movie trailer? Or a game trailer, or a patch release trailer?

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

Don’t read the spoilers if you don’t want to be spoiled

You mean i should stop reading forum completely? Because the spoiler was right on the front page of the general forum for everyone to see at that time…

Which one? You’ve never watched a movie trailer? Or a game trailer, or a patch release trailer?

Any trailer that spoils a major reveal is a bad trailer. But it’s not like that. It’s the people that had have seen some limited access prelaunch info talking about major plot points in the queue for the movie on the first day of screening.

Also, remember that Anet did claim that raid story will not impact LS at all. Reading raid lore (even if someone was trying to actively do that, instead of getting accidentally exposed) should have been safe spoiler-wise.

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

Don’t read the spoilers if you don’t want to be spoiled

You mean i should stop reading forum completely? Because the spoiler was right on the front page of the general forum for everyone to see at that time…

Which one? You’ve never watched a movie trailer? Or a game trailer, or a patch release trailer?

Any trailer that spoils a major reveal is a bad trailer. But it’s not like that. It’s the people that had have seen some limited access prelaunch info talking about major plot points in the queue for the movie on the first day of screening.

Also, remember that Anet did claim that raid story will not impact LS at all. Reading raid lore (even if someone was trying to actively do that, instead of getting accidentally exposed) should have been safe spoiler-wise.

What major points? Lazarus and the White Mantle returning? So your problem is that a new adversary (or rather an old one) was re-introduced in the Raid?

How did the raid story impact the LS? You don’t miss anything in the LS by not playing the Raid. The real question is if you are missing anything by not playing the Raid and in fact you are not. I don’t see why future Raids would be about fighting old foes in new settings and not each one introducing something new.

Now if we fight Lazarus or Primordus or another elder dragon in an actual Raid that would be a awesome bad idea.

Also keep in mind that when the White Mantle appeared in the Raid there was little indication that LS3 was also going to be about the White Mantle. Would it be better if Lazarus and the White Mantle threat was contained in the Raid lore? I think not.

And as an example, imagine if they introduce a new Raid that takes place inside the Foundry and we fight Titans there (GW2 versions of Titans would be awesome). Would it be better for those Titans to be a self-contained threat only available inside the Raid, or something that later on affects the rest of the story?

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

Please read my last post. We would have gotten a lot of hints just from the events in Bloodstone Fen.

You mean, the area most people start to explore after doing the story there?

You mean you never did Blood and Stone?

That literally brings you on a bit of an exploration, oh and you have to learn Counter Magic which was a new mastery before you progressed to A Shadow’s Deeds

The story literally has you go to the main lore points across the map, unlike other maps where you could try to get away from doing open-world lore Living Story Episode 1 more or less threw it in your face.

Anything else?

This thread is getting so derailed. All OP wanted was info on when the next raid will be released…

Avster.1935:

This thread is getting so derailed. All OP wanted was info on when the next raid will be released…

A answer to which is obscured by the mist. Giving a release date would just be spoiler now… or like Crystal Reid herself said once : a stoiler because it would also divulge too much about the story

Ranael.6423:

Avster.1935:

This thread is getting so derailed. All OP wanted was info on when the next raid will be released…

A answer to which is obscured by the mist. Giving a release date would just be spoiler now… or like Crystal Reid herself said once : a stoiler because it would also divulge too much about the story

I know :P I was just slightly hinting that maybe a new topic would be better for the convo that took over this thread.

Avster.1935:

This thread is getting so derailed. All OP wanted was info on when the next raid will be released…

Oh you know, now I let it gooooo, let it gooo

Avster.1935:

Ranael.6423:

Avster.1935:

This thread is getting so derailed. All OP wanted was info on when the next raid will be released…

A answer to which is obscured by the mist. Giving a release date would just be spoiler now… or like Crystal Reid herself said once : a stoiler because it would also divulge too much about the story

I know :P I was just slightly hinting that maybe a new topic would be better for the convo that took over this thread.

It’s inevitable that any topic about raids will eventually derail on to the topic of people wanting an easier raid mode or for it to be removed completely because lore/elitism/loot related reasons.

And it’s usually the same people doing it because they just can’t stop mentioning it in every post they make about raids.

But you got what you want. There is a weak version of VG on the new map. Don’t tell me that introducing story for other mmos work cuz they offer more accesibility…Look at WoW…..easiest is 10-man normal Raid, same as GW2…..what do you want easier than a 10-man normal raid? The content is made to be challenging, if you don’t want to challenge it, then you can’t have what others do…..The only spoiler in Raid is at the end of W3 when you find the opened coffin of a Murasaar…is like a spoiler for Lazarus’ return. Is a small percent of story compared to mmos like WoW who end entire expansions of story in a raid (Black Temple, ICC) with even more bosses than all 3 wings here…..GW2 is the mmo with easiest raids I’ve ever seen…..If you can;t do them, then you don’t rly deserve to be a raider. They don’t have to change anything about raids, they are perfect as they are.

Each game mod got it’s own rewards. Raids got Legendary Armor and this is how it should stay…. 25Li for a piece is not much at all.

Daniel.5428:

But you got what you want. There is a weak version of VG on the new map. Don’t tell me that introducing story for other mmos work cuz they offer more accesibility…Look at WoW…..easiest is 10-man normal Raid, same as GW2…..what do you want easier than a 10-man normal raid? The content is made to be challenging, if you don’twant to challenge it, then you can’t have what others do…..The only spiler in Raid is at the end of W3 when you find the opened coffin of a Murasaar…is like a spoiler for Lazarus’ return. Is a small percent of story compared to mmos like WoW who end entire expansions of story in a raid (Black Temple, ICC) with even more bosses than all 3 wings here…..GW2 is the mmo with easiest raids I’ve ever seen…..If you can;t do them, then you don’t rly deserve to be a raider. They don’t have to change anything about raids, they are perfect as they are.

Each game mod got it’s own rewards. Raids got Legendary Armor and this is how to should stay…. 25Li for a piece is not much at all.

So true… So true… !

Daniel.5428:

But you got what you want. There is a weak version of VG on the new map. Don’t tell me that introducing story for other mmos work cuz they offer more accesibility…Look at WoW…..easiest is 10-man normal Raid, same as GW2…..what do you want easier than a 10-man normal raid?

Seems like you never ever played WoW raids. 10 man normal raids in WoW was faceroll easy (except Karazhan on start) due to trinity, and only problem in them was undergear. GW2 ones are harder, because there is no real trinity still.

new raids will be added with next DLC,they said it somewhere.

Rednik.3809:

Daniel.5428:

But you got what you want. There is a weak version of VG on the new map. Don’t tell me that introducing story for other mmos work cuz they offer more accesibility…Look at WoW…..easiest is 10-man normal Raid, same as GW2…..what do you want easier than a 10-man normal raid?

Seems like you never ever played WoW raids. 10 man normal raids in WoW was faceroll easy (except Karazhan on start) due to trinity, and only problem in them was undergear. GW2 ones are harder, because there is no real trinity still.

Just think how many weeks you needed to get the gear…..gw2 was all about tactics cuz most of the ppl already had ascended gear and dulfy published guides right after 2-3 days since release…..so don;t tell me wow raids were easier. If you consider this joke of a raid hard, then you can’t play anything except the trinity……In the end, you need no trinity in gw2, just to know how to rotate your spells…..this is the thing ppl can;t do, they just go press 1-2-3-4-5, activate everything then stay on auto-attack for 50 seconds cuz of cooldowns.(because,ofc, switching weapons is not good)

Daniel.5428:

Just think how many weeks you needed to get the gear…..gw2 was all about tactics cuz most of the ppl already had ascended gear and dulfy published guides right after 2-3 days since release…..so don;t tell me wow raids were easier. If you consider this joke of a raid hard, then you can’t play anything except the trinity……In the end, you need no trinity in gw2, just to know how to rotate your spells…..this is the thing ppl can;t do, they just go press 1-2-3-4-5, activate everything then stay on auto-attack for 50 seconds cuz of cooldowns.(because,ofc, switching weapons is not good)

This “joke of raid” usually require to memorize and keep attention at more mechanics that usual 10man wow ones. Add to that an awful UI, no helpful addons, tiny number of proper training raids and small raiding community overall (yeah, there is new data on gw2eff, feel free to look at).

Rednik.3809:

Daniel.5428:

Just think how many weeks you needed to get the gear…..gw2 was all about tactics cuz most of the ppl already had ascended gear and dulfy published guides right after 2-3 days since release…..so don;t tell me wow raids were easier. If you consider this joke of a raid hard, then you can’t play anything except the trinity……In the end, you need no trinity in gw2, just to know how to rotate your spells…..this is the thing ppl can;t do, they just go press 1-2-3-4-5, activate everything then stay on auto-attack for 50 seconds cuz of cooldowns.(because,ofc, switching weapons is not good)

This “joke of raid” usually require to memorize and keep attention at more mechanics that usual 10man wow ones. Add to that an awful UI, no helpful addons, tiny number of proper training raids and small raiding community overall (yeah, there is new data on gw2eff, feel free to look at).

In case anyone was wondering about the actual data:

Percentile of players with shards
50% of players have 0 shards
20% of players have 104+ shards
10% of players have 318+ shards
1% of players have 2744+ shards

Draw conclusions as you will, but this seems pretty good to me.

Edit: By insights

50% of players have 0 insights
20% of players have 2+ insights
10% of players have 21+ insights
1% of players have 220+ insights

If the Data is in any way representive, than 31% of all active GW2 Players are doing Raids. which for MMo Standards would be Mind Blowing

But there is still Room for Error so 15% less and we would have 16% which is much more Realistic but still great.

And well GW2 Raid Bosses in average are not a Joke and we have only one really bad designed Boss here with KC but otherwise the Bosses are pretty Challenging.

Walhalla.5473:

If the Data is in any way representive, than 31% of all active GW2 Players are doing Raids. which for MMo Standards would be Mind Blowing

But there is still Room for Error so 15% less and we would have 16% which is much more Realistic but still great.

And well GW2 Raid Bosses in average are not a Joke and we have only one really bad designed Boss here with KC but otherwise the Bosses are pretty Challenging.

I thought a lot of people liked KC?

Razor.9872:

I thought a lot of people liked KC?

Well noone I know likes this Fight ( a few in my Guild even want Anet to redesign this Fight and they love most Raidbosses ) and there is a new Reddit Post from one of QT, talking about the Flaws of this Fight.

But why I think this Fight is badly designed.

RNG choosing which Mechanic you get. ( Bombs or Phantasms ) and both are completely different Difficulty wise. You have much more Time to deal with the Phantasms than with the Bombs. And getting Bombs in the last Phase is a Pain because the Bomb AOE’s are overlapping the AOE’s from the Boss when he jumps in the Air, making it very hard to see these AOE’s. If you get Phantasms in the last Phase you nearly killed the Boss, if you get Bombs, than this can screw you over.
Also quite a few times most of the Team is doing nothing. Literally nothing. Football Phase with enough DPS on the Big Adds, 8 People can play a few Turns on Pokemon without impairing the Raid Performance. Circle Mechanic. Just stand in and do NOTHING else. ( at VG you still had to deal with Seekers and could attack VG ).
Pizza Attack, go in Safespot and just wait. zzzz

Walhalla.5473:

If the Data is in any way representive, than 31% of all active GW2 Players are doing Raids. which for MMo Standards would be Mind Blowing

But there is still Room for Error so 15% less and we would have 16% which is much more Realistic but still great.

And well GW2 Raid Bosses in average are not a Joke and we have only one really bad designed Boss here with KC but otherwise the Bosses are pretty Challenging.

Right. Lets calculate some stuff, then. So, let’s assume that we have a Joe the Wannabe Raider. Let’s be generous and say that Joe missed like a whole W1 release and started after W2 release because people said him that raids are awesome and he should try.
Joe tried it ofc, he raided literally every week, but he was so bad that he managed to kill only one boss per week since W2 release. That’s 29 weeks, 29 insignias.
But hey, Joe is still a raider, right? Maybe one of the worst possible ones, but still. And now lets see where is his place on graphic, on “All” one…
In top 9%.
Lol.

Rednik.3809:

Walhalla.5473:

If the Data is in any way representive, than 31% of all active GW2 Players are doing Raids. which for MMo Standards would be Mind Blowing

But there is still Room for Error so 15% less and we would have 16% which is much more Realistic but still great.

And well GW2 Raid Bosses in average are not a Joke and we have only one really bad designed Boss here with KC but otherwise the Bosses are pretty Challenging.

Right. Lets calculate some stuff, then. So, let’s assume that we have a Joe the Wannabe Raider. Let’s be generous and say that Joe missed like a whole W1 release and started after W2 release because people said him that raids are awesome and he should try.
Joe tried it ofc, he raided literally every week, but he was so bad that he managed to kill only one boss per week since W2 release. That’s 29 weeks, 29 insignias.
But hey, Joe is still a raider, right? Maybe one of the worst possible ones, but still. And now lets see where is his place on graphic, on “All” one…
In top 9%.
Lol.

Your point being?

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Your point being?

Just pointing out at real participation numbers, because some people are becoming too delusional.

Rednik.3809:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Your point being?

Just pointing out at real participation numbers, because some people are becoming too delusional.

Fair enough. Still, 10%-15% active participation rate or so would be good enough for raids. Not that you could use gw2efficiency to draw any real conclusions anyway.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Rednik.3809:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Your point being?

Just pointing out at real participation numbers, because some people are becoming too delusional.

Fair enough. Still, 10%-15% active participation rate or so would be good enough for raids. Not that you could use gw2efficiency to draw any real conclusions anyway.

Yes. the only conclusion we can draw is that the numbers will be lower than that (because gw2eff skews the result towards the more hardcore/invested players), but how much lower we can’t really say.

There’s also that info from way behind (that may be no longer accurate) that half of the active accounts are f2p now – and those are definitely not raiders, for obvious reasons.

I’d say that efficiency skew is likely high enough that the real results would be much lower than 10-15%, but it’s only speculation at this point.

Astralporing.1957:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Rednik.3809:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Your point being?

Just pointing out at real participation numbers, because some people are becoming too delusional.

Fair enough. Still, 10%-15% active participation rate or so would be good enough for raids. Not that you could use gw2efficiency to draw any real conclusions anyway.

Yes. the only conclusion we can draw is that the numbers will be lower than that (because gw2eff skews the result towards the more hardcore/invested players), but how much lower we can’t really say.

There’s also that info from way behind (that may be no longer accurate) that half of the active accounts are f2p now – and those are definitely not raiders, for obvious reasons.

I’d say that efficiency skew is likely high enough that the real results would be much lower than 10-15%, but it’s only speculation at this point.

I wouldn’t say that. There’s lots of more casual players using it and you don’t even have to be all that hardcore to raid; I know a bunch of people who play really casually or don’t even do PvE normally, yet still raid on a regular basis because they find it enjoyable. It is really difficult to draw any conclusions, only ANet knows and they’re most likely not going to tell us, because why would they?