Guild Wars 2

Does anybody care about what this guy is talking about?

nope.

I think ill restrain myself and avoid posting what i was originally about to. You guys are only fueling Z. Im surprised you still havent noticed. His comments are completely honest and he does have justification for them. Although I can understand how many people dont have enough info to tell. So they just jump on the bandwagon without a second thought. It kind of reminds me of nemesis’s following.

I didnt really follow what happened initialy to cause this, the only thing im confused about is why on reddit and the official forums in SC/rT/LupI record threads we somehow find comment strads about DnT, like why are we even brought up when the topic should be the record… :s

spoj.9672:

They just jump on the bandwagon without a second thought. It kind of reminds me of nemesis’s following.

I’m sorry, but I’m not ok with you calling me sitting on my hands for 6 months “bandwagoning without a second thought.” Look at what I actually wrote. Zelyhn may have valid concerns. He may have legitimate reasons to dislike some people in dnt. It’s not my business. That’s my point – it’s not the public’s business. This random thread in which nike happened to post a joking remark about ele dominance in the meta, is not the place to play out this vendetta. This is a pattern that happens over and over, and to be quite honest Zelyhn is too often the instigator. I can wish that Nike would take the high road and not respond, but it’s only fair to ask the same of Zelyhn.

Again, he may feel his critique is justified but how is this helping. How is playing out this drama useful or constructive to the community.

rfdarko.4639:

How is playing out this drama useful or constructive to the community.

It entertains me on a boring day at work.

so, shhh, let the drama continue!

You guys are only fueling Z. Im surprised you still havent noticed.

Jerus.4350:

rfdarko.4639:

How is playing out this drama useful or constructive to the community.

It entertains me on a boring day at work.

so, shhh, let the drama continue!

Same

But yeah, this is definitely a “take it to a PM” sort of discussion…

How ’bout that [SC] run folks?

nice work on the run SC! always a pleasure to watch.

Nice run SC, nice to see some of the more popular records are still getting better and better!

Too bad this thread had to turn into complete ebola though.

Nice run where is the SE story thread on the forums? :O I need it for reasons

Well Arah p3 is more fun to watch that SE story ^^

rfdarko.4639:

spoj.9672:

They just jump on the bandwagon without a second thought. It kind of reminds me of nemesis’s following.

I’m sorry, but I’m not ok with you calling me sitting on my hands for 6 months “bandwagoning without a second thought.”

Erm…

For reeeeeeasons.

Jeremlloyd.6837:

Well Arah p3 is more fun to watch that SE story ^^

kitten it is. SE Story all the way ! Mesmer supermacy.

rfdarko.4639:

I’m sorry, but I’m not ok with you calling me sitting on my hands for 6 months “bandwagoning without a second thought.” Look at what I actually wrote. Zelyhn may have valid concerns. He may have legitimate reasons to dislike some people in dnt. It’s not my business. That’s my point – it’s not the public’s business. This random thread in which nike happened to post a joking remark about ele dominance in the meta, is not the place to play out this vendetta. This is a pattern that happens over and over, and to be quite honest Zelyhn is too often the instigator. I can wish that Nike would take the high road and not respond, but it’s only fair to ask the same of Zelyhn.

Again, he may feel his critique is justified but how is this helping. How is playing out this drama useful or constructive to the community.

Why do I bring this to the public? Glad you asked!
I make it a point to express my consternation openly. They attack me in private, I respond in public. They attack me with subjectivity and insults, I respond with facts and arguments. You be the judge.
You are not just a judge, though: these matters concern the entire community, as I will explain in this post.

The main stage is the chat on the DnT forums. When DnT opened these forums, a long time ago, it was very well received by the community. DnT has many valid theorycrafters dedicated to improving our gaming experience. It was a place where we could discuss freely, and it was constructive. At that time I was collaborating with DEKeyzToChaos (Keyz) from DnT on the elementalist theorycrafting. Together we wrote some of the best academic pages of gw2: we invented real-dps calculators and we brought the class’ knowledge to an unprecedented level. It was extremely fruitful, and I am grateful. As a theorycrafter I found on these forums a lot of valuable information to help me with my work. I am telling you this so you understand that I have no “by principle” dislike of DnT, and that it was natural for me to spend time on their forums.

It was amazing that, despite the rivalry of our respective guilds, Keyz and I managed to work together on constantly improving our expertise and transmitting this knowledge to the community. You see, I am animated by two motivations in this game: exploring the proficiency of my class, and developing a healthy competition in the community. I do this because in a game, like in any sport, trying our hardest to achieve more is entertaining and gives us a sense of purpose. This is why I enjoyed writing guides and launching community initiatives such as the ascension project. I also admired the work of Cookie from DnT, who built the very successful gwscr framework. Via this platform all guilds united in single mindset of friendly competition, it was the zenith of our constructive rivalry.

My hopes to witness the rise of a healthy competition in GW2 were shattered the day that Nike captured the community-lead initiative to launch PvE tournaments.

On that day I understood that not everybody at DnT was driven by the idea of friendly rivalry. Some, including the leader, thought that antagonism is the way to go.

It was very clear from the beginning. In the mind of Nike making PvE tournaments was too good of an idea to be left to anyone but himself. He had to single handedly direct it, he had put his name on it, he had to own it. So when I suggested that tournaments could be something we all unite in building, like we had done for gwscr.com, Nike antagonised me, he antagonised my guild, and he antagonised the community.

I am going to state here once more that all I asked him was simply to talk. I never asked anything for myself. After all I am simply a basic member of rT. But it does not take a genius to understand that to develop our PvE competition, to expand our friendly rivalry, we had to be united. Alienating each other would be doomed to failure in the long run. I was not the only one to see this: here on this forum my post criticising Nike’s handling of the organisation was more upvoted by the community that the tournament post itself! And Nike knew this. He wanted us, but rejected us. He agreed, but disagreed. In the end his ego took over his contradictions.

I went to the DnT forums, like I used to do for theorycrafting. Except that this time I went on the chat to talk directly to Nike. I was hoping that by being humle and honest in my approach, DnT members could understand my point of view. I was wrong. The antagonism had transformed into the strongest of hate. I had dared to criticise Nike, I was to be hung, I was to be lynched! They could have simply rejected my view, politely putting an end to the story, but pride and antagonism had corrupted their minds. Far away was the friendly rivalry of the early days.

From this point onward, it got worse and worse. Their spite seemed limitless. But it was not just for me: there was hate for everybody, for the entire community! As I have witnessed from that moment, anyone who ever dared to criticise – or just to diverge from – the schemes of Nike and DnT has been trashed harshly on their public chat. They insulted everyone! And when I say “insult” I really mean offences so extreme that they would be condemnable by the laws of every state. These were insults that were written on a public chat frequented by many like me, open for everybody to see, and they knew that. How dark then could the bottom of the iceberg be: when they would trash us privately or vocally? This shocked many guilds, and this is why they decided not to take part in the tournament, despite the enormous rewards.

From what I know, Nike is a lawyer, so he knows this. In private he is extremely prolific with his spite. But he can be manipulative enough in public. He commanded his guild members to stop talking to me because it could make DnT look bad. Himself, he abstained from debating on the argument level, resorting only to vague subjective attacks attempting to discredit me. And he made the DnT chat private after I revealed to the public how hateful they are. I guess he hoped that by retracting he could protect himself and his acolytes. But they could not contain their antagonism and their pride.

I knew this and I wanted the public to know this. For that reason I made a few light-hearted comments about DnT in public, only objective things they could have easily brushed off. For example I would say “the meta is not like what DnT predicted”, to which they could easily reply “yes indeed, we did not anticipate that or that” and it would be the end of the story. But no, the exuberant egos on their side drove them to show their irrational hatred, every time. So you think I am an instigator? Maybe, but look at the overreaction. Despite their spite, I never insulted them. Yet they cannot contain it. And now it is clear to the community how hateful some DnT members can be when you don’t fully submit to their rule.

This is not the only thing the community learned from this. In her message apologising to me, Swiftpaw from DnT explained that we must defuse the tensions because the environment is too harsh. She explained that the PvE side of GW2 is living such a hard time that unity is required now more than ever.

Unity.

Swiftpaw is right, but she is late. Unity is what I asked for from the start. I wanted friendly rivalry and instead we received unhealthy antagonism. Not only is this fruitless but it is ruining the experience. Hopefully this example will serve as vaccine against the temptation of pride for all of us.

This is the message that the community must understand. In this difficult time for our PvE passion, it is vital to put aside our egos, our antagonisms, and enjoy this game as friends.

It’s cool and all but this is a thread about SC Arah path 3 record, not how unfair life is.

oxtred.7658:

It’s cool and all but this is a thread about SC Arah path 3 record, not how unfair life is.

This is about friendly competition, so it is right where it should be

Zelyhn,

Keep calm and play ele.

Sincerely,

oxtred.7658:

It’s cool and all but this is a thread about SC Arah path 3 record, not how unfair life is.

The quarrel started off from when I asked Zelyhn if he (and [rT]) wants to return to the competition. It was all for good fun until people get offended and everything entails and unfolds.

Iris Ng.9845:

Zelyhn,

Keep calm and play ele.

Sincerely,

Oh this matter put my nerves under the harshest of all tests, and from the outcome I think I can safely say that I am completely immune to anger

My love to eles

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Something something.. antagonism… something… diverge ..something …. condemnable .. something …. abstained …something… acolytes

Completely off topic, I do have to say that you have always had a way with words (for a frenchie :x)

plzdunhitme french ppl

Oh Sandy, since you’re here, any comments for the mesmer part?

Iris Ng.9845:

Oh Sandy, since you’re here, any comments for the mesmer part?

Im always here, come on.

I told jerem most of it in private, and found the lack of trait switches disturbing. Rest is just copied ;p copied well though

luvujerem

Edit: oh and he looks better with his new set.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

oxtred.7658:

It’s cool and all but this is a thread about SC Arah path 3 record, not how unfair life is.

This is about friendly competition, so it is right where it should be

Friendly competition?
This “friendly competition” is even worse than the acting in top tier pvp.
I didn’t see as much arrogance, vanity,hate and flames from players in any other gamemode as I notice from some players who are participating in GW2 SC-Competition.

Sad but true.

Sanderinoa.8065:

Iris Ng.9845:

Oh Sandy, since you’re here, any comments for the mesmer part?

Im always here, come on.

I told jerem most of it in private, and found the lack of trait switches disturbing. Rest is just copied ;p copied well though

luvujerem

I did scrutinize him for his unwillingness to pick up the LH but for the most part it was well done. His first skip is better than yours :p
What trait switching scheme do you have in mind?

Iris Ng.9845:

Sanderinoa.8065:

Iris Ng.9845:

Oh Sandy, since you’re here, any comments for the mesmer part?

Im always here, come on.

I told jerem most of it in private, and found the lack of trait switches disturbing. Rest is just copied ;p copied well though

luvujerem

I did scrutinize him for his unwillingness to pick up the LH but for the most part it was well done. His first skip is better than yours :p
What trait switching scheme do you have in mind?

A magician never reveals his secret. You should know this, Iris

Sanderinoa.8065:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Something something.. antagonism… something… diverge ..something …. condemnable .. something …. abstained …something… acolytes

Completely off topic, I do have to say that you have always had a way with words (for a frenchie :x)

plzdunhitme french ppl

When the French is attacked, the French retaliates

(Even if it means having to spend an hour with a dictionary)

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Sanderinoa.8065:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Something something.. antagonism… something… diverge ..something …. condemnable .. something …. abstained …something… acolytes

Completely off topic, I do have to say that you have always had a way with words (for a frenchie :x)

plzdunhitme french ppl

When the French is attacked, the French retaliates

(Even if it means having to spend an hour with a dictionary)

All yours oxtred!

According to a french dictionary, retaliation is running away the fastest way possible.

hehehe i so funneh

There, fixed it for you

I realized my jokes weren’t funny, so I did my best. Pardon me.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

My hopes to witness the rise of a healthy competition in GW2 were shattered the day that Nike captured the community-lead initiative to launch PvE tournaments.

The fact is, had DnT not taken the reins of the first tournament it would have never happened, the KING tournament would likely never happened, and the second tournament never happened. Community driven is great, but at some point leadership has to step up and lead. Things don’t happen unless someone makes them happen. GWSCR wouldnt exist without cookie, [noob] wouldnt exist if Iris didn’t step up and make it happen and the tournaments wouldn’t have happened if DnT didn’t take the initiative. You suggest it was a community lead event that we stole, but you couldn’t be more wrong: it was a go-nowhere forum thread that would have continued to go nowhere unless someone stepped up. Maybe someone else would have, maybe not. Either way, we took charge because someone had to.

For the second tournament I understand you felt that we should have given final decision making authority to “the community” or whatever. That’s a fine position for you to have but incredibly naive. For starters, tournaments are a significant amount of work. Brazil, KaBoomz (who you dont even know), Vix and myself worked tons of hours behind the scenes and on the scene for that matter to make sure it was great. None of us had to do it, and none of us would have done it had the format been something we all fundamentally disagreed with. Had “the community” introduced changes we felt were untenable or unmanageable, we wouldn’t have been obligated to volunteer our time thusly. We would have pulled away and let “the community” do it themselves, which as we have seen is a recipe for long forum threads full of bad brainstorming, but little else. We opted to keep final decision making to ourselves in order to ensure a modicum of quality control, and the result was we had a much improved product to broadcast.

Secondly, we did solicit community input. We read the thread on this forum after the first tournament where people made suggestions. We watched the KING tournament and got ideas. We got feedback from Arenanet (which, in my opinion, is the most valuable feedback of all) and we had a feedback thread on our forums where, presumably, all the leaders of every guild who participated had an account since they made one to register for the tournament. We received feedback from every guild who participated, including your own. No one was ignored. No one was left out. After that feedback was gathered I made a draft of an updated ruleset and mailed it to Jerem and Sandy since I value their opinions very highly. both told me they would review it and reply, neither did. Fine. So I announced the tournament and published the rules. subsequently to that you were upset that you hadn’t had the chance to discuss the changes you would like. Again, I apologize for that, but it just wasn’t important at that stage for everything to be stopped to give you a chance to offer your opinions. I didn’t consciously exclude anyone from feedback or the rulemaking, or the rule drafting. I was as inclusive as could be, and I’m sorry if “as I could be” didn’t include you personally.

that’s it/.

Same arguement as before. But it doesnt really counter anything Zel said. You dont know for sure that the community wouldnt have created the tournament. You did snatch it up very fast. And also it maybe true that you listened to everyone who gave feedback. However this comment proves that you were monopolising the tournaments. “We opted to keep final decision making to ourselves in order to ensure a modicum of quality control, and the result was we had a much improved product to broadcast.” In fairness you werent completely wrong to do this. But when you refused to allow outside organisers to contribute or to move the organisation to an unbiased committee you proved that you had no interest in running the tournaments purely for the community. You kept much of the organisation completely private within your guild. It was a tournament for DnT disguised as a tournament for the community.

Dont even know why im posting this anymore. I said this before. But you didnt seem to understand. :P

I wonder how many popcorn bags I’ll go through before this settles down.

frifox.5283:

I wonder how many popcorn bags I’ll go through before this settles down.

Hopefully it won’t settle down until April 2015, need something to keep me entertained until the next season of Game of Thrones premieres :P

spoj.9672:

Same arguement as before. But it doesnt really counter anything Zel said. You dont know for sure that the community wouldnt have created the tournament. You did snatch it up very fast. And also it maybe true that you listened to everyone who gave feedback. However this comment proves that you were monopolising the tournaments. “We opted to keep final decision making to ourselves in order to ensure a modicum of quality control, and the result was we had a much improved product to broadcast.” In fairness you werent completely wrong to do this. But when you refused to allow outside organisers to contribute or to move the organisation to an unbiased committee you proved that you had no interest in running the tournaments purely for the community. You kept much of the organisation completely private within your guild. It was a tournament for DnT disguised as a tournament for the community.

Dont even know why im posting this anymore. I said this before. But you didnt seem to understand. :P

I completely understood, it’s just that you’re wrong.

Read again: after soliciting community feedback I sent draft rules to Jerem and Sandy. What more was I to do? By the time Zel popped up asking for admission the stage was already set. As far as securing outside volunteers, I asked Sandy to shoutcast with us before all the drama and he declined. I fail to see how I could have been any more inclusive, honestly.

A “tournament for DnT.” You are absurd. We put hours of time and thousands of our own gold into the tournament. We got nothing out of it but some youtube videos which have to date earned me about $10, which pales in comparison to what I spent on gold and gems for the tournament prizes. Or do you suppose that it was all a nefarious plan to drive traffic to our website to gain…. what exactly? We certainly don’t generate ad revenue, and our guild applications didn’t spike after either tournament, though the other guilds who participated certainly did thanks to the exposure we got them. If you argument is that we ran the tournament for fame or something equally amorphous and intangible I can safely dissuade of you that concept since we don’t need the tournament to bolster our reputation and we would have been just fine without it. Was the KING tournament an event for KING masquerading as a community event? I wouldn’t even suggest such a bizarre novelty, and I imagine you wouldn’t either, which definitely speaks to someone’s biases.

Hahahaha Nike.
Yes we had these discussions before. But it never stops entertaining me how you try to twist the facts.

So it seems this whole community meeting business has gone out of your memory now? Do you remember having agreed, then ignored, then re-agreed, then forgotten about it?

As for why you captured the community initiative, you are fooling no one. When I went to talk to you on your chat, I was sent a link to a DnT page where you listed all the “great things DnT had accomplished over so many games” you showed me “how natural it was that your guild would be in charge and solely in charge of this” because “who else?”. Surely the fact that I appeared humble (not asking anything for myself) made you think you could impress me. Your pride was all over the place. Your pride is clouding your memory now.

You wanted this tournament for yourself and you got it. Good for you. But how you did it… If you had put your pride aside for just one or two days, things could have been so much better.

Lol that comment vanished pretty quickly.

Back to the popcorn!

Gyler.8150:

Lol that comment vanished pretty quickly.

Back to the popcorn!

?? what did I miss?

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

So it seems this whole community meeting business has gone out of your memory now? Do you remember having agreed, then ignored, then re-agreed, then forgotten about it?

I never agreed to a meeting. Sandy proposed one right after the tournament and I said I didn’t want to think about it. That was the last I heard of it until you popped up.

As for why you captured the community initiative, you are fooling no one. When I went to talk to you on your chat, I was sent a link to a DnT page where you listed all the “great things DnT had accomplished over so many games” you showed me “how natural it was that your guild would be in charge and solely in charge of this” because “who else?”.

That’s a lie.

Surely the fact that I appeared humble (not asking anything for myself) made you think you could impress me. Your pride was all over the place. Your pride is clouding your memory now.

What’s the word for false humility?

You wanted this tournament for yourself and you got it. Good for you. But how you did it… If you had put your pride aside for just one or two days, things could have been so much better.

My pride, or whatever, has nothing to do with ignoring you. I guess it bears repeating: I solicited Sandy’s opinion before announcing the rules. If I cared about “my pride” or being some megalomanical despot I certainly wouldn’t have sent the rules to Jerem or Sandy. I wouldn’t have listened to Anet. I wouldn’t have listened to Haviz or Wethospu. I didn’t ignore you because I was afraid of you or too stubborn or anything. I ignored you because by the time you showed up the rules were already published and quite frankly we were under no obligation to stop everything and take down published rules in order to satisfy your feelings of entitlement, regardless of whether or not your ideas might have actually been great.

Jerus.4350:

Gyler.8150:

Lol that comment vanished pretty quickly.

Back to the popcorn!

?? what did I miss?

Lots of kittens in a circle hugging each other.

I’m curious as to know what where Zelhyn’s ideas? Just for future reference.

Hi Zlybsd Landsandwich or how ever you say your name. I’m Wanted.

Your existence reminds me of a horrible news channel.

Your persistent, annoying comments riddled with buzzwords make you sound like a whining idiot to any intelligent human being.

Clearly you’re widely uncared for, and well, no one wants to listen to the village idiot.

Off with you Landsandwich.

#TOURNEYGATE

hybrid.5027:

That’s a lie.

Look. You know I can prove all my points. You know that some members of DnT have tried to say “this is your word versus mine” in the past. You know I have won all of these arguments. Why? Because I have nothing to hide.

You keep talking about my self entitlement, my ideas, my involvement, my whatever. But you know perfectly that I never talked about myself at any point with you. You are trying to project your way of thinking on me. Unlike you, my ego is not the centre of my thoughts. Oh you are a good lawyer, but your rhetoric is fooling no one. “Fake humility” you say. You can call everything I do fake if you want. But there are facts. In contrast, your insults were quite real. What you said in the chat was real. What you said on reddit was real. Your pride is real. And your ego is surreal.

I do not want this argument to last until the release of Game of Thrones in April so I will tell you one thing. If you contest what I am saying, I dare you, I double dare you mister:

Publish here on this forum the entire script of your chatbox, fully and unedited, from the moment I connected to it until today.

Then the general public will see for themselves how manipulative you are. They will be able to know for themselves all the things you said about this community. They will see these talks we had, and how injurious they were. They will notice how you lied so many times. They will see the truth. And the truth will be on my side. I dare you.

If you do not have the courage to do this then do not challenge my word.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

You know I have won all of these arguments.

…

I dare you, I double dare you mister:

….

Publish here on this forum the entire script of your chatbox, fully and unedited, from the moment I connected to it until today.

I can’t… this is just..

If you do not have the courage to do this then do not challenge my word.

I’ve lost it. This is it. Mind Brain blown.

Might surprise you but i dont have access to chatbox scripts from 3 months ago.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

I do not want this argument to last until the release of Game of Thrones in April

…You’re aware that you’re the one that hijacked this thread in the first place….right?

Do either of you think you’ll ever convince the other of anything?

Will anything anyone says change whatever happened?

Oh well.

throws popcorn in microwave

I haven’t been playing much the past few months and just returned for the new LS stuff (crazy, right?). I’d thought elitist drama would have quieted down in my absence, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. I’m glad it hasn’t since, as Veckna said, GoT doesn’t premiere until April.

Reading this thread, I feel Zelyhn ought to be commended for his posts. They are a pleasure to read. I’m glad he hasn’t lost his touch since our Ele-talks.

For some reason, his writing reminds me of Peter/Valentine Wiggin’s publications in Orson Scott Card’s Enderverse (dunno why that in particular came to mind – it just did).

Anierna.6918:

.
For some reason, his writing reminds me of Peter/Valentine Wiggin’s publications in Orson Scott Card’s Enderverse (dunno why that in particular came to mind – it just did).

<3
Somehow, I missed you