Guild Wars 2

Now before I say anything, I’m not saying it’s a sin or anything of that nature. But from a balance point of view I think this consumable should be removed.
For one it allows any skill on any class to generate vuln but more importantly it generates weakness which is handy as all Kitten™ in higher level fotm. Which at first glance doesn’t seem like an issue and it’s nice, but at the same time it completely pushes any and all player skills with limited exception ie. skills on weapons already on the build. Kitten™ it even pushes blasts and leaps in poison fields out of game-play for the most part since why would you work for something when you can just set it auto-proc? (Looking at you boring PS warrior pushing fun LH ele out of the meta… T.T)
I think ultimately either the food needs to removed from instanced content much like a number of " cheesy™ " consumables were to make for more choices in the matter. And it would help underdog classes that have better up-time on the POWERFUL condition move closer to the meta level even just a little (or atleast make some combo other than fire & water worth using). Or atleast give it an ICD and a duration cut on the weakness.
I’m curious as to what you guys have to say on this.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Skale_Venom_

fracture.9754:

You forgot to mention zerk stats and stacking!

Considering I’m fine with Both LoS pulling (used since the beginning of gaming) and Zerker gear is the best thing to run right now because everything else is either lack luster or just plain self centered in group content I have no issues with zerker gear.

But there is something about a consumable, that gives every class access to something that likely should be scarce unlike poison and doom sigils…

Pretty much no one uses skale venom anymore in high level content. The +10/-10 potions are much better and places that don’t have a speficig potion just use sharpening stones.

Don’t forget this:

Skills that Bounce have a chance of ~20% to inflict the effect on the player instead of the target.

That actually happens and annoying as hell for some classes.

Generally I would say that it indeed helps to some extent, BUT only if the whole group uses it, which is almost never the case, even with guildmates (unless it is a dedicated fractals-running guild). For around 5k+ fractal runs I have seen zero random groups who would use it – only a few guys here and there who probably not even sure why they use it – just heard from someone that “venom is awesome and will solve all your issues”.

In dungeons you might prefer dungeon-specific potion instead which gives a dmg boost you won’t have otherwise, so it its usage is basically limited to fractals.

And don’t think I am defending it as some kind of overpowered stuff – I wouldn’t cry if it gets removed or made unusable in dungeons/fractals. There are a lot of other good consumables which are far better for specific situations or just generally good.

Taku.6352:

Pretty much no one uses skale venom anymore in high level content. The +10/-10 potions are much better and places that don’t have a speficig potion just use sharpening stones.

It isn’t true. If the whole party have the skale venom it works pretty well in most situations. Yes, you will have a bit (like 1-4%?) lower dmg but that doesn’t really matter in a good group, you won’t even feel the difference, – on the other hand skale venom might soften some hits and leave you alive when you would have died otherwise.

Any decent party will be capping vuln so there’s no need for the extra from skale venom and weakness is pretty moot since most of the incoming damage can be nullified by active defences and if you get hit it’ll be -10% lower thanks to the potion.

For pug runs skale venom is ok but any organized guild group should just use proper potions.

fracture.9754:

Xcorpdog.2840:

fracture.9754:

You forgot to mention zerk stats and stacking!

But there is something about a consumable, that gives every class access to something that likely should be scarce unlike poison and doom sigils…

So they should maybe just remove all the consumables, except pots and food, from dungeons/fractals? Or why do rocks, with which you can perma knockback enemies, not fall under your rule of exclusion? Why do harpy feathers and spy kits not fall under your rule? How about the net? Hylek poison, pet ogre whistle, etc.?

Skale venom isn’t even that useful. Stealth consumables, on the other hand, are.

I never said I wasn’t against those, I haven’t generally done runs with those items, so don’t go saying I’m ok with them, I mean ultimately most of the consumables besides food and potions should probably be disabled. But that’s my own personal take on it.

Does anyone besides DnT use them anyway?

fracture.9754:

Oh, so you’re crying out for a nerf on things you don’t even know / aren’t experienced with? How did you get to the conclusion your opinion matters on a subject you don’t even know (you know, this isn’t just for other consumables, your skale venom was a big miss as well)?

Xcorpdog.2840:

I think ultimately either the food needs to removed from instanced content much like a number of " cheesy™ " consumables were to make for more choices in the matter.

By the way, skale venom is a utility, not food.

It’s a consumable item that competes with oils and potions yes, doesn’t make it less consumable because it assumes one slot over the other. (excuse my semantic slip though please.)
I don’t use the spam rocks, or the stealth items, I know full well what they can do, but they really don’t do anything besides spam 1 or so skills over and over depending on what you’re using. Not really interesting for game play, not balanced in any way shape or form. If the dev’s wanted to us use the same skill on no cd in some cases they would have made everything either no cd or made everyone thieves with limitless initiative.

Life blast self inflicts the effects. :>

fracture.9754:

You forgot to mention zerk stats and stacking!

He also forgot skipping.

That aside – I don’t really see the Skale venom as a huge issue. I’ve very rarely encountered people who use it.

I really don’t think it’s consistent enough to be concerned with. It’s a nice alternative when you don’t have/there aren’t potions for the content. Other than that potions are generally better.

Yes I think skale venom is exploiting.

To answer the title, yes it should remain usable in instanced content. While we’re at it, more things should be usable in fractals and dungeons than currently are. Skale Venom is incredibly weak currently since they made it compete with the wrench buff, and pretty much the only time I use it is when my pub team is horrible enough that we need the weakness and vulnerability.

Thorwyn.8469:

Does anyone besides DnT use them anyway?

Eh I use them for areas that don’t have an associated slaying potion with it and if its just daily runs.

For records? Probably not.

I often use them for certain fractals because they are a lot cheaper than sharpening stones.

fracture.9754:

You said FOOD. It’s not FOOD, it’s a UTILITY. I even specifically quoted the part where you named it food. Either way, maybe you should write to Arenanet demanding they remove it from instanced content, because nobody reads these forums anyway.

I’m not demanding anything, and I don’t really care for the fact that you have been hung up on the fact that I didn’t care you call the second food slot, the wrench, a utility slot, which is just semantics to be honest. But no, I made the post to see what other people had to say on the matter, which has changed my opinion some, that’s the point of asking the question.
And as for no one reading these forums, plenty of people read them. Sure a red post maybe scarce but people still read and post here. Deciding that no one reads these just because it is the dungeon forum is an insult to anyone who actively spends there time here. /side-track

i dont think the reasoning in the OP is a strong case to remove it. slayin’ pots are mo’ betta everywhere theyre applicable and skale venom can only have a place where they arent, which is very few encounters.

Thorwyn.8469:

Does anyone besides DnT use them anyway?

I use them in AC as thief (yay for power cap)

If/when higher level fractals ever get opened up ghost pepper poppers and skale venom will be much more in demand. As would Necromancer if Wither Precision ever got un-nerfed.

As to who uses them: They’re nice in semi-pug fractals, or if you like mixing up group comp (at which point the additional vuln helps a lot).

Otherwise, I wish they’d go the other way and bring the bundles back instead. Maybe not the TP gun, because you can break the instance, but the others are honestly just fine.

And really it’s the same deal, nice normalizing for sub-optimal groups.

NikeEU.7690:

If/when higher level fractals ever get opened up ghost pepper poppers and skale venom will be much more in demand. As would Necromancer if Wither Precision ever got un-nerfed.

So where is the difference?

As a low HP class in a lvl 50 Fractal you kinda get one hitted by everything already. Even with weakness the dmg numbers are high.
In higher Fractals, stuff might kill you even with weakness on them, so where is the point of it?

And yeah, it often feels like NA is way behind the EU meta. Skale Venom was nice back then, when you could use it beside a dungeon potion or sharpening stone/oil. Now you only use it, if there is nothing else to use.

Thorwyn.8469:

NikeEU.7690:

If/when higher level fractals ever get opened up ghost pepper poppers and skale venom will be much more in demand. As would Necromancer if Wither Precision ever got un-nerfed.

So where is the difference?

As a low HP class in a lvl 50 Fractal you kinda get one hitted by everything already. Even with weakness the dmg numbers are high.
In higher Fractals, stuff might kill you even with weakness on them, so where is the point of it?

And yeah, it often feels like NA is way behind the EU meta. Skale Venom was nice back then, when you could use it beside a dungeon potion or sharpening stone/oil. Now you only use it, if there is nothing else to use.

Well take the archdiviner for instance, while most of the things he does can be dealt with he hits for 9~18k to a light armor character in zerker gear at 50. With weakness that range goes down to 4.5~9k when it procs. Further still the damage can be cut with protection, not needed currently but, that can drop the damage down to 3~6k damage which is far from a one shot and would actually be a 2~4 shot for a warrior in zerker gear. So while it’s not meta right now it was back when fotm levels were much higher ie fotm 80 for instance where % based damage reduction become enormous. And while I can’t speak for Eu vs Na it seems high an mighty to try and say one is lesser than the other, they’re different not one over the other.

Thorwyn.8469:

NikeEU.7690:

If/when higher level fractals ever get opened up ghost pepper poppers and skale venom will be much more in demand. As would Necromancer if Wither Precision ever got un-nerfed.

So where is the difference?

As a low HP class in a lvl 50 Fractal you kinda get one hitted by everything already. Even with weakness the dmg numbers are high.
In higher Fractals, stuff might kill you even with weakness on them, so where is the point of it?

And yeah, it often feels like NA is way behind the EU meta. Skale Venom was nice back then, when you could use it beside a dungeon potion or sharpening stone/oil. Now you only use it, if there is nothing else to use.

with weakness + protection that’s a lot less true “LOL EVERYTHING 1 HITS ANYWAYS” is one of those myths that needs to die.

Xcorpdog.2840:

Thorwyn.8469:

NikeEU.7690:

If/when higher level fractals ever get opened up ghost pepper poppers and skale venom will be much more in demand. As would Necromancer if Wither Precision ever got un-nerfed.

So where is the difference?

As a low HP class in a lvl 50 Fractal you kinda get one hitted by everything already. Even with weakness the dmg numbers are high.
In higher Fractals, stuff might kill you even with weakness on them, so where is the point of it?

And yeah, it often feels like NA is way behind the EU meta. Skale Venom was nice back then, when you could use it beside a dungeon potion or sharpening stone/oil. Now you only use it, if there is nothing else to use.

Well take the archdiviner for instance, while most of the things he does can be dealt with he hits for 9~18k to a light armor character in zerker gear at 50. With weakness that range goes down to 4.5~9k when it procs. Further still the damage can be cut with protection, not needed currently but, that can drop the damage down to 3~6k damage which is far from a one shot and would actually be a 2~4 shot for a warrior in zerker gear. So while it’s not meta right now it was back when fotm levels were much higher ie fotm 80 for instance where % based damage reduction become enormous. And while I can’t speak for Eu vs Na it seems high an mighty to try and say one is lesser than the other, they’re different not one over the other.

You’re not supposed to be facetanking any of his hits. The point of the current meta is to avoid absolutely all damage, which is relatively easy to achieve. This will for the most part stay the same if higher levels of fractals are opened. Assuming the pattern of the current instabilities and scaling stays the same, of course.

Xcorpdog.2840:

Thorwyn.8469:

NikeEU.7690:

If/when higher level fractals ever get opened up ghost pepper poppers and skale venom will be much more in demand. As would Necromancer if Wither Precision ever got un-nerfed.

So where is the difference?

As a low HP class in a lvl 50 Fractal you kinda get one hitted by everything already. Even with weakness the dmg numbers are high.
In higher Fractals, stuff might kill you even with weakness on them, so where is the point of it?

And yeah, it often feels like NA is way behind the EU meta. Skale Venom was nice back then, when you could use it beside a dungeon potion or sharpening stone/oil. Now you only use it, if there is nothing else to use.

Well take the archdiviner for instance, while most of the things he does can be dealt with he hits for 9~18k to a light armor character in zerker gear at 50. With weakness that range goes down to 4.5~9k when it procs. Further still the damage can be cut with protection, not needed currently but, that can drop the damage down to 3~6k damage which is far from a one shot and would actually be a 2~4 shot for a warrior in zerker gear. So while it’s not meta right now it was back when fotm levels were much higher ie fotm 80 for instance where % based damage reduction become enormous. And while I can’t speak for Eu vs Na it seems high an mighty to try and say one is lesser than the other, they’re different not one over the other.

How exactly does weakness take place. Reading wiki it says weakness is just 50% chance to execute a glancing (50%) damage, so wouldn’t the extremes remain and an 18k hit would hav a 50/50 chance of doing 18k or 9k. So a nice addition to your safety nets, but not really something you can rely on like perma protection unless I’m mistaken.

Jerus.4350:

Xcorpdog.2840:

Thorwyn.8469:

NikeEU.7690:

If/when higher level fractals ever get opened up ghost pepper poppers and skale venom will be much more in demand. As would Necromancer if Wither Precision ever got un-nerfed.

So where is the difference?

As a low HP class in a lvl 50 Fractal you kinda get one hitted by everything already. Even with weakness the dmg numbers are high.
In higher Fractals, stuff might kill you even with weakness on them, so where is the point of it?

And yeah, it often feels like NA is way behind the EU meta. Skale Venom was nice back then, when you could use it beside a dungeon potion or sharpening stone/oil. Now you only use it, if there is nothing else to use.

Well take the archdiviner for instance, while most of the things he does can be dealt with he hits for 9~18k to a light armor character in zerker gear at 50. With weakness that range goes down to 4.5~9k when it procs. Further still the damage can be cut with protection, not needed currently but, that can drop the damage down to 3~6k damage which is far from a one shot and would actually be a 2~4 shot for a warrior in zerker gear. So while it’s not meta right now it was back when fotm levels were much higher ie fotm 80 for instance where % based damage reduction become enormous. And while I can’t speak for Eu vs Na it seems high an mighty to try and say one is lesser than the other, they’re different not one over the other.

How exactly does weakness take place. Reading wiki it says weakness is just 50% chance to execute a glancing (50%) damage, so wouldn’t the extremes remain and an 18k hit would hav a 50/50 chance of doing 18k or 9k. So a nice addition to your safety nets, but not really something you can rely on like perma protection unless I’m mistaken.

Well you don’t just blanket apply it to face tank, you apply it so that when you do get hit sooner or later barring a flawless kill you have a 50% chance to not get 1 shot allowing the fight to keep going without downs.
Meanwhile protection by it’s self does nothing if it was going to hit for 18k since it would still hit for 12k instead.
(edit: that is a 1 shot for 4/5 party members assuming ele ele guard thief warrior comp.)
(edit 2: So at the current scale yes, you can use slaying potions to take it down below 1 shot levels but if the scale goes much higher short of perma frost aura prortection and slaying which gets out done pretty fast and is far harder to maintain than weakness.)

Windsagio.1340:

Thorwyn.8469:

NikeEU.7690:

If/when higher level fractals ever get opened up ghost pepper poppers and skale venom will be much more in demand. As would Necromancer if Wither Precision ever got un-nerfed.

So where is the difference?

As a low HP class in a lvl 50 Fractal you kinda get one hitted by everything already. Even with weakness the dmg numbers are high.
In higher Fractals, stuff might kill you even with weakness on them, so where is the point of it?

And yeah, it often feels like NA is way behind the EU meta. Skale Venom was nice back then, when you could use it beside a dungeon potion or sharpening stone/oil. Now you only use it, if there is nothing else to use.

with weakness + protection that’s a lot less true “LOL EVERYTHING 1 HITS ANYWAYS” is one of those myths that needs to die.

We were talking about Skale Venom, didnt we?

With the upcoming trait-changes for example, the hammer guard might come back and with perma protection plus this passive heal and regen, you should be able to facetank kinda everything. But that’s not the point of the Skale Venom discussion.

As Abe said, you are not supposed to facetank stuff right now, at least not in the way of getting damage. And then still, you cant rely on weakness, cause of the 50% chance.

If there’s a slaying potion available for whatever content, use that. Otherwise sharpening stones or if you want to be cheaper, skale venoms. Don’t really see why there’s such a huge discussion on it.

Thorwyn.8469:

And yeah, it often feels like NA is way behind the EU meta. Skale Venom was nice back then, when you could use it beside a dungeon potion or sharpening stone/oil. Now you only use it, if there is nothing else to use.

Yeah that EU meta 2 advanced 5 me.

Thorwyn.8469:

Windsagio.1340:

Thorwyn.8469:

NikeEU.7690:

If/when higher level fractals ever get opened up ghost pepper poppers and skale venom will be much more in demand. As would Necromancer if Wither Precision ever got un-nerfed.

So where is the difference?

As a low HP class in a lvl 50 Fractal you kinda get one hitted by everything already. Even with weakness the dmg numbers are high.
In higher Fractals, stuff might kill you even with weakness on them, so where is the point of it?

And yeah, it often feels like NA is way behind the EU meta. Skale Venom was nice back then, when you could use it beside a dungeon potion or sharpening stone/oil. Now you only use it, if there is nothing else to use.

with weakness + protection that’s a lot less true “LOL EVERYTHING 1 HITS ANYWAYS” is one of those myths that needs to die.

We were talking about Skale Venom, didnt we?

With the upcoming trait-changes for example, the hammer guard might come back and with perma protection plus this passive heal and regen, you should be able to facetank kinda everything. But that’s not the point of the Skale Venom discussion.

As Abe said, you are not supposed to facetank stuff right now, at least not in the way of getting damage. And then still, you cant rely on weakness, cause of the 50% chance.

Weakness and protection synergize well, it’s not like one negates the other. Weakness in combination with protection is extremely powerful damage mitigation

And if we want to refer to the OP, why are we limiting the question to the Current “Meta” anyways? It’s not remotely the only way dungeons are played (or even the majority of runs).

In mixed comps and with sub-perfect play both the weakness and the vulnerability are very useful… and they’ll likely be useful for even more “meta”-ish groups depending on how the ‘hard content’ comes through.

Which isn’t to say they should be banned, the effect is hardly gamebreaking (my other reference the Teleport gun, and the original black lion spy kit were gamebreaking), and it frees up people to play more interesting ways.

Windsagio.1340:

Thorwyn.8469:

Windsagio.1340:

Thorwyn.8469:

NikeEU.7690:

If/when higher level fractals ever get opened up ghost pepper poppers and skale venom will be much more in demand. As would Necromancer if Wither Precision ever got un-nerfed.

So where is the difference?

As a low HP class in a lvl 50 Fractal you kinda get one hitted by everything already. Even with weakness the dmg numbers are high.
In higher Fractals, stuff might kill you even with weakness on them, so where is the point of it?

And yeah, it often feels like NA is way behind the EU meta. Skale Venom was nice back then, when you could use it beside a dungeon potion or sharpening stone/oil. Now you only use it, if there is nothing else to use.

with weakness + protection that’s a lot less true “LOL EVERYTHING 1 HITS ANYWAYS” is one of those myths that needs to die.

We were talking about Skale Venom, didnt we?

With the upcoming trait-changes for example, the hammer guard might come back and with perma protection plus this passive heal and regen, you should be able to facetank kinda everything. But that’s not the point of the Skale Venom discussion.

As Abe said, you are not supposed to facetank stuff right now, at least not in the way of getting damage. And then still, you cant rely on weakness, cause of the 50% chance.

Weakness and protection synergize well, it’s not like one negates the other. Weakness in combination with protection is extremely powerful damage mitigation

And if we want to refer to the OP, why are we limiting the question to the Current “Meta” anyways? It’s not remotely the only way dungeons are played (or even the majority of runs).

In mixed comps and with sub-perfect play both the weakness and the vulnerability are very useful… and they’ll likely be useful for even more “meta”-ish groups depending on how the ‘hard content’ comes through.

Which isn’t to say they should be banned, the effect is hardly gamebreaking (my other reference the Teleport gun, and the original black lion spy kit were gamebreaking), and it frees up people to play more interesting ways.

Aye but lets compare these to potions:
Weakness: Doesn’t stack with outside sources, could create conflict
Vuln: stacking issues as well.

You need the majority of party members to be using skale venom for decent up time. Weakness even then would be avg 25% damage reduction for it’s uptime, 15% more damage reduction. While potions at 10% increase vs 5s of 1% per proc, esp on bosses would amount to likely only a few stacks of vuln. And potentially both of these are blocked by professional sources. Meaning the potions woudl have the 10% advantage on both ends.

So i really don’t see skale venom as being out of balance at all, and I’d only consider it if I don’t want to/don’t have the correct potion.

I need to use them so they run out…

@Jerus

I dunno man, I’ve used it a fair amount, and I’d swear a hammer guard and a PS warrior + pugs gets 100% or near-100% uptime (and my mind tells me 7-8 passive stacks of vuln, but less sure of that). If I get a chance to play tonight I’ll give it a check.

The other important effect of weakness, more than the damage reduction is the evening effect from lost crits. With all the passive effects flying around these days, spikes are potentially bad at all times, and weakness largely mitigates the issue.

The OP hit on it, I think it’s going to end up (although it isn’t right now) similar to the rise of the PS warrior. Consistent and reliable rule the day over high precision/high coordination technique.

Weakness has the potential to take a lot of RNG out of the fights, on an easy non-class-specific high uptime application.

You guys are all more experts on this than I am, but if the content gets some actual difficulty, that control of randomness will only gain value, especially if you can get full uptime from 2 party members.

Thorwyn.8469:

NikeEU.7690:

If/when higher level fractals ever get opened up ghost pepper poppers and skale venom will be much more in demand. As would Necromancer if Wither Precision ever got un-nerfed.

So where is the difference?

As a low HP class in a lvl 50 Fractal you kinda get one hitted by everything already. Even with weakness the dmg numbers are high.
In higher Fractals, stuff might kill you even with weakness on them, so where is the point of it?

And yeah, it often feels like NA is way behind the EU meta. Skale Venom was nice back then, when you could use it beside a dungeon potion or sharpening stone/oil. Now you only use it, if there is nothing else to use.

i know right, the guild setting the meta is behind it

wait

what

Windsagio.1340:

@Jerus

I dunno man, I’ve used it a fair amount, and I’d swear a hammer guard and a PS warrior + pugs gets 100% or near-100% uptime (and my mind tells me 7-8 passive stacks of vuln, but less sure of that). If I get a chance to play tonight I’ll give it a check.

The other important effect of weakness, more than the damage reduction is the evening effect from lost crits. With all the passive effects flying around these days, spikes are potentially bad at all times, and weakness largely mitigates the issue.

The OP hit on it, I think it’s going to end up (although it isn’t right now) similar to the rise of the PS warrior. Consistent and reliable rule the day over high precision/high coordination technique.

Weakness has the potential to take a lot of RNG out of the fights, on an easy non-class-specific high uptime application.

You guys are all more experts on this than I am, but if the content gets some actual difficulty, that control of randomness will only gain value, especially if you can get full uptime from 2 party members.

Actually you’re looking at more RNG with weakness. Weakness may or may not help you when you slip up. You slipping up is not RNG.

As for up time for some reason I had it in my head that you wanted 4 people with it for it, but looking at the math you should just need 3-4 hits per second to keep it up on a boss. So yeah 2 people maybe 3 can cover it. The vuln is pretty lacking though and really shouldn’t even be considered as anything more than maybe a little extra.

Jerus.4350:

Actually you’re looking at more RNG with weakness. Weakness may or may not help you when you slip up. You slipping up is not RNG.

As for up time for some reason I had it in my head that you wanted 4 people with it for it, but looking at the math you should just need 3-4 hits per second to keep it up on a boss. So yeah 2 people maybe 3 can cover it. The vuln is pretty lacking though and really shouldn’t even be considered as anything more than maybe a little extra.

I think that’s the wrong way to think of it (all the below assumes that party members are going to be hit sometimes)

I don’t remember the specific probability math (15 years out of College), but weakness decreases your chance of getting crit by about 50%. (might be higher, to my memory the roll order matters, but I can’t remember how)

Even presuming protection, on a very high power boss, a crit assumes a splattered character. The chance of a random splatter is MUCH lower (again, half) with weakness.

Imo, we can’t think of it in terms of multiple rolls interacting, but rather as comparing the % of catastrophic result.

To me this factor is more important than the loss in outgoing DPS (although mods are as always cumulative).

~~~

Given perfect play, yeah the weakness is not a factor and the vulnerability isn’t great (although that greatly depends on party makeup. If you don’t have, say, an ele or an engi it’s really hard to cap vuln, at which point even minor stacking is a significant mod).

The thing is, I’m not a big believer in perfect play, and I think the ‘meta’ development reflects that philosophy… and this is with (at this point) easy, largely solved content.

Windsagio.1340:

Otherwise, I wish they’d go the other way and bring the bundles back instead. Maybe not the TP gun, because you can break the instance, but the others are honestly just fine.

Harpy love potion…come on ANet :‘( I’m dying to spread the love!

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

Actually you’re looking at more RNG with weakness. Weakness may or may not help you when you slip up. You slipping up is not RNG.

As for up time for some reason I had it in my head that you wanted 4 people with it for it, but looking at the math you should just need 3-4 hits per second to keep it up on a boss. So yeah 2 people maybe 3 can cover it. The vuln is pretty lacking though and really shouldn’t even be considered as anything more than maybe a little extra.

I think that’s the wrong way to think of it (all the below assumes that party members are going to be hit sometimes)

I don’t remember the specific probability math (15 years out of College), but weakness decreases your chance of getting crit by about 50%. (might be higher, to my memory the roll order matters, but I can’t remember how)

Even presuming protection, on a very high power boss, a crit assumes a splattered character. The chance of a random splatter is MUCH lower (again, half) with weakness.

Imo, we can’t think of it in terms of multiple rolls interacting, but rather as comparing the % of catastrophic result.

To me this factor is more important than the loss in outgoing DPS (although mods are as always cumulative).

~~~

Given perfect play, yeah the weakness is not a factor and the vulnerability isn’t great (although that greatly depends on party makeup. If you don’t have, say, an ele or an engi it’s really hard to cap vuln, at which point even minor stacking is a significant mod).

The thing is, I’m not a big believer in perfect play, and I think the ‘meta’ development reflects that philosophy… and this is with (at this point) easy, largely solved content.

The game is designed in a way that you can be perfect though if you properly prepare yourself and execute correctly.

Is it reasonable to expect everyone to do? No, do I do it, hell no. But, it’s possible. And, that’s what GW2’s meta is about. Ease of play simply isn’t factored in. If it were we’d have been in the Hammer Guard/PS War/Thief/Staff Ele/+1 meta since PS hit us. It’s what me and my buddies did for a long time till it simply got too boring for us (we even abused the crap out of untraited wardens for our +1 ) GW2’s PVE Meta eliminates the factor of skill and difficulty and goes for what can actually be done and you simply rise to the challenge.

Of course there’s also PUG Meta, but the problem here is you don’t have the coordination, coordination or even composition control to really utilize everything that may be discussed in forming an actual meta. This is why it really focuses on consistency (so many ‘c’ words…sorry just had to point that out) and why people still stack. If they can control the environment it should be easy to replicate conditions such that you can complete any content with the most minimal of effort while maintaining a decent speed.

I’m not saying weakness is bad, I’m just saying it’s not needed just like all mitigation tools. If I don’t get hit, it never gets used. And that’s why I never see it becoming big in the Meta even if it’s potential power is there. Which is something that happens a lot in this game, people shed powerful defenses that if you play perfect won’t be used, I’d say that basically defines the Meta.

Skale Venom (10m): You have a 10% chance to inflict weakness and vulnerability for 5 seconds when you hit a foe.

RNG is really really bad in this game. It’s equally bad to saying Blind is also useful on boss. Let’s spam Sand Storm and Black Powder on him to ensure a higher chance to blind (100% damage reduction).

Edit: I did not make up this argument. My guildie actually spent a considerable amount of time to explain his logic to me.

Ease of play has to be part of the calculation, because if that changes so do the preferred styles.

The “meta” presumes perfect play due to the ease of the encounters, and if the encounters were harder, it wouldn’t presume perfect play.

If the encounters get harder, or the style of encounter changes so that its impossible to entirely avoid all damage, then the situation is going to be different.

We’re kind of wandering (although it’s a very fun wander) :p

I think we both agree that skale venom isn’t required for performance, and also isn’t so strong that ANET should remove it.

I’m making a conceptual case for it — in the circumstance that the encounters (or the group makeup) are such to set it up (again pointing out that the more substardard your group makeup the stronger it becomes — “meta” assumes so much to work).

Edit: And that’s an important point, I get the impression that a lot of the people in here run optimized or nearly optimized groups. The calculation is extremely different if you’re not.

Weakness is a 50% chance to hit for 50% damage, it applies to all pure damage hits regardless of crit or non-crit. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1aVFznlKF6kynT3v0LTm8WX6tO2MnFhEDRrTFCq0rdoA/edit#gid=958308035 Based off this sheet, which I copied Brazil’s engineer rotation into, an engineer gets 2.5 vuln out of scale venom, 1.3 on bosses, and 68 seconds of weakness over a 27sec rotation(reduced to 34 secs on bosses). So 2 people will cap weakness and add ~2-3 vuln onto a boss, or 1 person if its an engineer/sword thief. Though with the new defiance bars, I’m unsure if bosses will have reduced vuln/weakness as they do now with the Unstoppable buff. Hopefully anet gives us news since apparently they aren’t doing a new spec release this week.

maha.7902:

the guild setting the meta

He was referring to Team Aggression.

Skalevenom had its place when Fractals where still run with AH Guards on Knights gear cause it definitely helped, but now where it is all about avoiding hits Slaying Potions and Stones/Oils are better.

As someone who has done (taking a break from the game now) dungeon tours and fotm skale venom is hardly used. The only time I will use it is if we have less than 25 vul in a dungeon/fractal and if I don’t have an oil. Since I run ele I rarely need the vul in dungeons/fractals however there are some fractals where the dps pots don’t exist (or I don’t know whats best) so that’s when I’ll use my venom. So in my personal opinion, no they shouldn’t be banned from instances.