Guild Wars 2

It would be nice to be able to see how much MF gear a player is equipped with when they are on your team. This will create a fairer and more enjoyable game-play when we form public teams.

Or not. Because what if someone wearing magic find gear is actually good? Does this mean that you can judge a players skill just by how much magic find they do and do not have?

I do not see how this makes dungeons fair.

And do you know if such people are wearing magic find gear? Maybe they are just having a bad day. There are more than 1 variables in this calculation senor.

What they should do is attach a certain value on the gear you have equipped. Say, an exotic is worth than an uncommon. To make things easier, they should just sum up the totals of the gear and have it be displayable to other players, so people know who they can invite safely.

Again. Making it to where you can see peoples stats is not a method of guild wars. If you ever played guild wars 1. You would understand this. There was a way to post builds, and such. To see whatever attributes you had. But that is no longer an option. You have to just judge accordingly.

Making judging public would ostracize some people. And discrimination based on gear, how would that make this game any different than WoW?

Besides better combat, better situational awareness abilities, better teamwork and teamplay elements of course.

No. I think the game should remain how it is. Find people you enjoy teaming with, and add them to friends list. Otherwise, leave the teamplay element of the game alone. We do not need to have the LFM pools tainted by elitism.

@ lyer. Magic find gear can be found on exotics as well.

MF-guy is dragging team-performance down so I guess party should know.

If you can provide an adequate explanation as to why having magic find on your gear means you necessarily contribute less than somebody that doesn’t have it, you will have my support.

Many have tried, nobody has ever succeeded.

The loss of stats due to magic find can fairly easily be made up through the use of two consumables. The impact to stats, weighed against base stats + gear + traits is fairly small.

Unlike other MMOs, player skill is not simply your ability to follow a community-approved best-practices skill rotation. Players are expected to be observant and react. A failure to observe or react in a dungeon will most likely result in you being downed. A single distraction takes more from the group than an entire run in MF gear ever did. Do you want to also see how many kids I have? How many people on my friends list might whisper me? number of guildmates that like talking? Number of people that might call me? Drinking habits? Sleep schedule? If you’re going to try to screen out players that you consider non- or under-contributors, you picked a really kitteny metric to use.

Edit: Other situations worth considering:

Wethospu.6437:

MF-guy is dragging team-performance down so I guess party should know.

The two know-it-alls that bicker over the “right” way to do things drag performance down more.

The person that has never done the dungeon before, or forgets it drags the performance down more.

Mr. This-is-the-only-skill-set-I-will-ever-need drags the performance down more.

The big-number obsessed “greatswords are the only weapon worth using” fanatic drags the performance down more.

The casual player that doesn’t invest in maxing out gear drags performance down more.

The PvP nut that is dismisive of PvE content and is “slumming” because his “leet” guild took the night off drags performance down more.

The player that just respeced to a new build but has not yet purchased a full set of gear to support it drags performance down more.

Why all the hating on something as simple as magic find when there are far more severe issues out there?

The purpose to not to ostracize people who wear some MF gear, but to let the team members know what they signing up for. If a person has say 30% MF no problem. If a person has 100%+ MF on a team of 5 it is still manageable. When say two or more people happen to be farming with 100%+ MF then it impact the other members of the team no matter how good you are. Time is a commodity. People should have a right to know if they are able to allocate x amount of time to an event; otherwise, they will avoid public groups or simple avoid doing dungeons. Furthermore, I doubt the GW2 community will need to ostracize people who wear MF gear. When members can see how much MF gear the other members are wearing they will adjust.

@Fildydarie:
Try to run a power/toughness/vitality gear in dungeons, or really anything tanky rather than pure glass cannon or MF, and you will see real difference. A single distraction won’t get you downed; a single small error on your end won’t wipe the team if you’re properly geared. You will kill the boss faster without any downtimes, making tanky builds stronger in the long fights than glass cannon berserker specs.

You do have to be reactive even when tanky, but there are three options when you run MF gear, and all of them are inferior to other options:

• you are punished much harder and more often for your errors, resulting in much more downtime than you would have if you ran more vit/tough stuff;
• IF you are good enough to really dodge out of every hit and stay alive, you are wasting your dps potential for MF, simply dealing much less damage – if you go glass build, go one that deals as much dmg as possible, if you really can pull it off, and not one that just feeds your personal greed;
• IF you’re running a glass build, you are probably using defensive utility skills (the war’s stance, mist form, etc), effectively lowering your damage, control and/or party-wide support potential – because you make up for the losses in defensive stats.

On top of that, keep in mind that MF does NOT affect loot from chests and there aren’t that many enemies to kill in dungeons – SE1 before the patches held the record with a whoopin’ total of 9~14 enemies to kill throughout the whole dungeon. Also a lot of enemies in dungeons have empty loot tables, like graveling hatchlings in AC or any other potentially infinitely spawning monsters, to prevent any abuses.

MF is simply not worth it, especially once we’ve got a dev confirmation it does not affect chests. It’s fine when farming Orr, might bring more rare drops per hour, yet it’s not only offensive towards your team to bring it into explorable dungeons but simply not worth it even for you, burning your own time as well.

Exactly. Let’s streamline this further and add number weight to the stats. Higher points for Toughness and Vit, then the rest and add negative points for MF. This number should be right next to titles, where the 100% map completion is.

I am still against introducing any ‘stat counters’, as they can’t and won’t reflect the effectiveness of one’s character; i am also against previewing others, although on the other hand it would also help with checking out others’ item skins, making it much easier to get the thing we want.
But i’m strictly against bringing MF into dungeons and that’s why i never pug or take unknown, non-guild people into dungeons – and when i do and i notice they get downed more often than i personally deem acceptable, i outright ask them to ping their gear. Still, i prefer not to pug at all, mainly because of all the glass builds out there – cannons or MF leechs.

Wouldnt the best way be to remove idiotic magic find from the game and boost drops a bit.
Its not like it does any good to the game or serves a true purpose

This is not an attack on magic find. Magic find is a part of the game and farming items is a part of the gw2 economy. I see this more as how much is too much and how do we even know? People don’t form a group of 5 warriors or 5 eles because we know it creates bad team dynamic. The class information is shown for us to avoid that situation. With magic find we can’t tell if there is too much until we’re in a bad situation and ragging on players to ping their gear – which is not enjoyable for any player. Players do not need to be fully optimized to complete or enjoy dungeon runs with public groups. You can have MF gear on your team and complete a dungeon run in good time with no problem. I just don’t want it to like a bad bingo game so please consider providing us the information.

The idea of a stats was discussed and answered in the work meter thread. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/A-meter-to-measure-workrate/page/2#post673902

Magic Find – and only Magic Find – should be displayed to other members of your party.

It is the only stat in the game that benefits you but has zero benefit for the rest of your party. Unless Magic Find is changed to be shared or averaged across an entire party, it is the only anti-cooperative mechanic in the game, and other players have a right to know if you aren’t trying to cooperate with them.

Every stats is anti-cooperative, I’ve never experienced the toughness or power on my armor buffing allies around me. All nit-picking aside, if the player is at least average in performance then it shouldn’t matter what gear they have.

Crater.1625:

Magic Find – and only Magic Find – should be displayed to other members of your party.

It is the only stat in the game that benefits you but has zero benefit for the rest of your party. Unless Magic Find is changed to be shared or averaged across an entire party, it is the only anti-cooperative mechanic in the game, and other players have a right to know if you aren’t trying to cooperate with them.

The number of times you’ve died should be displayed too. And the total amount of gold you’re gear is worth. And how many times you’ve completed a dungeon path. And your age, gender, and current job, because someone who has a job that requires good reflexes is going to be better at dungeons than a paper pusher.

Just make mobs in dungeons not affected by player’s magic find at all.

i think MF is not for dungeons , use it outside ..not in the dungeon. Agree, on drkn.3429

No, that’s just as stupid. If you invest in something, you should benefit from that investment. Show the proof that someone with magic find is automatically the worse person in a group or drop the argument.

Fildydarie.1496:

The two know-it-alls that bicker over the “right” way to do things drag performance down more.

Decide plan before the encounter. Replace person refusing to cooperate.

The person that has never done the dungeon before, or forgets it drags the performance down more.

Guide him, if he refuses to learn then replace.

Mr. This-is-the-only-skill-set-I-will-ever-need drags the performance down more.

If he is intentionally running sub-optimal build and refuses to change (like axe traits when not even using axe) then yes replace him. I’m all for showing your build to everyone else, however there is always a chance that someone doesn’t understand your build. This doesn’t exist with MF.

The big-number obsessed “greatswords are the only weapon worth using” fanatic drags the performance down more.

You can suggest different weapon and replace if necessary. Whether a weapon is bad is a lot more complicated than just counting MF.

The casual player that doesn’t invest in maxing out gear drags performance down more.

If he runs green-gear with exotic-gear on inventory then yes replace him. Otherwise you can offer to buy him some gear.

The PvP nut that is dismisive of PvE content and is “slumming” because his “leet” guild took the night off drags performance down more.

Replace if not cooperating.

The player that just respeced to a new build but has not yet purchased a full set of gear to support it drags performance down more.

You can offer to buy him some gear.

Why all the hating on something as simple as magic find when there are far more severe issues out there?

Simply because it is an intentional choice and it never brings any benefit in any situation.

LordThroat.7890:

Every stats is anti-cooperative, I’ve never experienced the toughness or power on my armor buffing allies around me. All nit-picking aside, if the player is at least average in performance then it shouldn’t matter what gear they have.

Kill enemy who is killing your teammate, that’s cooperative.
Stay alive and keep aggro to protect teammates, that’s cooperative.

JungleNin.8379:

No, that’s just as stupid. If you invest in something, you should benefit from that investment. Show the proof that someone with magic find is automatically the worse person in a group or drop the argument.

MF replaces other stats, should be quite obvious.

You really can’t expect people to be good as you. However you should be able to expect them not to intetionally drag the team down.

JungleNin.8379:

No, that’s just as stupid. If you invest in something, you should benefit from that investment. Show the proof that someone with magic find is automatically the worse person in a group or drop the argument.

Well tbh I have some first hand experience here. I had a guildie who always insisted on taking a magic find set and it was terrible. He was a warrior and died every encounter with a mob and could not understand why.. He dragged the whole team down everytime we had him in a dungeon and I was hard pressed to say anything without offending him.

Eventually he figured it out and switched to another set with power/vitality/toughness.. and let me tell you, it was like taking a whole new player. He rarely dies now and cant believe he wasted his time beforehand. When you have a member who dies every encounter, it becomes a liability. You are sacrificing one whole stat that could add to your DPS or survability which would contribute to the group’s success in the dungeon.

Saying that Magic find doesn’t affect your performance in a dungeon is wishful thinking, of course it does, you are one stat down on being a constructive member of your group. You can say ‘well I do just fine in MF set in dungeons it’s all player skill blah blah blah’ till the dolyaks come home but you cant get around that fact that you would be more efficient to your team if you had 3 contributing stats instead of 2. And for many people who lack skill, that extra stat may just make the difference between dieing every encounter and being a productive member.

I made a magic find set and it was very simple for me to judge that my damage decreased easely with 30% due to my main statt becoming mf. Any good player ll know he is not supporting his team as good as he could be.

If all members would change to mf gear, not only would you kill a lot slower. It would also be much harder for of the bad players to stay alive, due to the limit in statt combos available with mf.

If people use mf outside dungeons be my guest, since it’s a zergfest anyways. But in dungeons your just leaching of you team. Like people that refuse to wear armor.

I recently salvaged my 175%-MF gear on my main, that’s how bad it is if you don’t farm mobs in open-world PvE.
If you do, however, go MF all the way. Otherwise just don’t; even the MF food is a waste of stats.

LordThroat.7890:

Every stats is anti-cooperative, I’ve never experienced the toughness or power on my armor buffing allies around me. All nit-picking aside, if the player is at least average in performance then it shouldn’t matter what gear they have.

You can’t be serious.

Having more Power means that you kill enemies more quickly, which makes the dungeon run go faster for the whole party. How much faster is completely immaterial, by the way; given two characters who are exactly equal and are played exactly identically, except that one has 500 more Power than the other, the one with more Power will almost certainly contribute more to the party, and it is impossible, given that they are played identically, that they will contribute less.

Having more Toughness makes you harder to kill, which means that when enemies attack you, they are less likely to kill you and it will take them longer if they do, which directly means that the enemies will be doing less damage to the rest of your party because the enemies will be spending more time hitting you instead of them, and indirectly means that you will be contributing more damage to the party, since you will spend less time downed or defeated – at which point the same argument for Toughness applies.

Having more Magic Find means that you, personally receive more/better item drops. There is no benefit, no matter how small or intangible, that the rest of your party will see from having that stat. Given that all sources of Magic Find except for a Magic Find Booster come at the expense of other stats that do help your party, the rest of your party shares the ‘expense’ of your reduced effectiveness, without ever receiving the ‘benefit’ of your stats, as they would with any other stat in the game. It is anti-cooperative, in a way that no other stat in the game is.

JungleNin.8379:

No, that’s just as stupid. If you invest in something, you should benefit from that investment. Show the proof that someone with magic find is automatically the worse person in a group or drop the argument.

The argument is given above. Nobody is saying that every player with Magic Find is worse than every player without Magic Find. What people are saying – and it is 100% undeniable, objective fact to say so – is that the same player, on the same character, being played in the same way, will be more effective with proper stats than with Magic Find. Using Magic Find under a certain set of conditions is always inferior to not using Magic Find under the same set of conditions, for every player except the one running Magic Find. The same cannot be said of any other stat in the game, period.

Edit: This is all speaking in the most conservative terms, by the way. In practice, using Magic Find is worse than this, because Magic Find gear comes with only Power and Precision as secondary stats, whereas for many players, Toughness and Vitality, Condition Damage, Healing Power, etc are more effective uses of your stat ‘budget’ than the purely-offensive stats.

MF also comes with power and cond dmg, but cond dmg sucks hard in PvE and whoever is running MF in WvW deserves a serious kick in the balls.

@Wethospu.6437: Yes, the solution for all these player types is to either kick them or take more time to either overcome their shortcomings or to help them be better players. That doesn’t mean that they don’t drop the group’s power by being there. My point was not that these are insurmountable obstacles, just that they are more of a drain on the party than a capable, knowledgable person wearing MF gear.

Rather than work with people to overcome shortfalls, the general mindset is to exclude players that don’t work “your way.” If they fail to be a team player, sure, removal is always an option, but shouldn’t you make these calls based on performance rather than a stat that has so little to do with their ability to contribute?

Im surprised. Truly surprised.

You want gear management system, to where you can view other peoples gear? You dont want to be mean, but at the same time you want to scrutinize players for wearing certain pieces of gear.

You want more effective dungeons? Then find a group you enjoy playing with. Form a static group. Because you are expecting WAY too much out of pugs. Thats whats so great about pugs. You never know what your going to get.

This is just another way for people to judge other players, which i do not think is very smart in the long run. You wont find me personally running with magic find gear, but you wont find me judging others because they are either.

You will never be able to judge a players performance, you will never be able to gauge whether or not they are contributing much to the party. what you will be able to tell, is that, they are a player, of a wonderful game. Like you. If you want to seperate that fact, you can, but you will not be well-liked by the community.

Again, refer to my post here

and here

and here

I want numbers. I want caclutated numbers that show just how much they drag a parties performance down. Please. You all “say” that you’ve “Had personal experiences”.

But oh wait, they wont give us numbers. Because that isnt what guild wars 2 is about. Stop trying to Min/Max the freakin game and have fun with it.

Just think, every time that guy in “MF” gear goes down. Its Experience whenever you res him.

I don’t really care about how much someone is dragging the team down. I care about how much they are intentionally dragging the team down.

What if its not intentional. What if they dont know that MF is not the best gear. Some people are new to MMORPG. So your automatically assuming that they are intentionally dragging down the party now.

Wow.

Also, the title of this thread is very misleading. Says “Show me my magic find” not,

“Anet, please allow us to view everyones gear so we can judge them and then decide whether or not we want them in this party so that we can spend 30 minutes arguing, by which time the dungeon may have or may have not been completed, but wasnt because we are so busy arguing over which stats we prefer to have, and which stats we dont want to have. There goes 2/5 of our party members, time to post another LFM in Map chat”

80 exotic MF gear isn’t necessarily worse; c onsider people could be undergeared in -10 ilvl whites no less. (Avoiding repair costs they say)

Its a slippery slope, you want to see people’s mf so you can kick them, next you’d want to see all their gear so you can kick them if they’re not in 80 exotics; then dps counters to kick underperforming builds and so on.

Its already hard enough for new players in pugs to find groups when people only want lvl 80s, only certain classes, speedruns, and people who already have memorized the layout of the dungeons.

It is a simple fact you cannot argue around that 3 stats that contribute to your performance are better than 2. What you want to believe does not make it true.

I am sure everyone here would love that Magic find did not affect performance, do you know the implications of that? I would be running around in my magic find set for every dungeon ( of which I do 6 a day). I have a variety of sets.

A tank set, A DPS set, and a Magic Find set. Can you guess which one I perform the worst in?

Look at it logically, take out all your emotions here. As unfair as the drop rate in this game is, as unfair as the dungeons are in the fact that they demand preparation and thought in builds and traits to be an effective team… that’s just how they are. It’s the same as when people argued about how someone in a green set of gear somehow matched someone in a rare set of gear because they didn’t want to exclude people. What you want doesn’t affect reality.

People aren’t saying MF affects performance negatively because they are mean people and just hate other people for having magic find sets. There is a legitimate reason. It’s because it does.

When you are taking a pug, you are not telepathic I am afraid. You cannot tell the difference between a skilled and a bad player. But they may be the difference between a 45 minute run and a 4 hours run of Arah. You say it’s unfair on people to exclude them for wearing a full magic find set.. I say it’s unfair to keep me and my team in Arah for 4 hours because they dont care to make another set of gear. Especially when I have illness that restricts the amount of time I can be at the computer in one sitting. It works both ways. And when I cannot tell if that player is good enough to compensate for their poor stats, naturally I will take someone with better stats. Especially if I have 6 people applying ta the same time (yes it happens sometimes >_<). Making the wrong choice there can be a doozey.

I’m all for being a carebear and group hugs and everyone’s happy lalala land you have going there.. I don’t want to exclude anyone, but when it comes down to it, I want to choose the pugs that are going to be the most fair to my team, and it becomes that much harder when I ask them what their gear is.. they don’t tell me or they lie to me, then we start failing the dungeon and they fess up 3 hours in after dieing over and over.

I do not think it is unreasonable to at the very least display that amount of magic find someone has. Even if only for Arah as it requires alot more contribution from each individual player, especially path 4. Nothing else, just that stat. Likely A-net wont implement this anyway.. but please do not spread the falsehood that a MF has the same performance value as another set of 3 stats.

I’m not saying don’t take them, you don’t have to, you can make your own groups. But as for me, I would like to have the choice, as they are my groups that I put my time into.

Hate all you want, the reality is, magic find affects performance.

swiftpaw.6397:

Hate all you want, the reality is, magic find affects performance.

Proof please. Thanks.

Kashien.6278:

swiftpaw.6397:

Hate all you want, the reality is, magic find affects performance.

Proof please. Thanks.

It’s called logic. Three stats vs. two.

If these stats don’t matter, why even wear armor at all?
Why not just wear a set with no base stats? Let’s just take them all out seeing as, via your logic,they don’t matter.

At this point I think you are trolling tbh.

Kashien.6278:

Logic?

Logic doesnt mean anything with your battling ignorance.

Take hitlers logic, where did that send 6 million people?

What are you even talking about? Are you trying to insult me now too?
Do you know how irrational you sound right now? >_>

Just saying that your making a big deal out of magic find only because you want to min/max the game.

Its ignorance at its finest. There’s no proof that magic find affects parties. What if the guy needs to get more yellows? So he can better his character, by using the Ecto he gets?

So, is he supposed to farm for yellows OUTSIDE of dungeons? Why not get 2 birds with one stone and wear magic find?

Yes, it can be proven, it’s called experience. I as well as others have already told you, they have tried both sets in the same scenarios. One set with 3 stats that affect performance, one set with only 2 stats that affect performance (your magic find set). I have done a run of CoF in a full Magic find set, and a run of CoF in a Vitality/power/toughness set. I died 5 times in the Magic find set, I was squishy as kitten and it was really hard to stay up. I did not die once in the vitality/power/toughness set. Same conditions. Sorry I cannot make a youtube video for you but most people can make the simple conclusion that MF set is less performance. Really there is not point arguing with you, you see thing how you want to see them because the reality is too harsh.

‘What if the guy needs to get more yellows? So he can better his character, by using the Ecto he gets?’

How does this affect his current performance in the dungeon? This has nothing to do with anything. We are arguing here that 3 stats that affect performance are better than only 2. It doesn’t matter if ‘well what if he needs money!?’,that doesn’t all of a sudden cancel out the fact that 3 stats are better than 2. Once again you let your feelings get the better of you.

again, your trying to min/max the game. Let players play how they want to play. If you want to play like that, to where yo uwant them to link their gear. Go ahead. but making things viewable to the public. No. We dont have a right to see that.

We dont have a right to judge based on gear, nor do you have a right to judge based on performance. Those people that do, are elitist min/maxers who have no place in guild wars except at the bottom of the LFM pool, where they will constantly team with people from a cesspool of players with bad attitudes and poor team play capabilities. Its very selfish if you to want to see thier gear. and you will not stop there.

Pretty soon, you will move onto wanting to see ALL thier stats, and ALL thier gear. Once anet gives you an inch, you’ll want to take a mile.

So I say not to this. If someone is dragging down the party, big deal. Work through it. Kick them and find a replacement, dont begin the ruin of a great mmo.

Kashien.6278:

again, your trying to min/max the game. Let players play how they want to play. If you want to play like that, to where yo uwant them to link their gear. Go ahead. but making things viewable to the public. No. We dont have a right to see that.

I don’t want anything really, I’m just trying to stop misinformation being spread about statistics on gear.

Your misleading the public if you think magic find gear has no place in dungeons. Lol.

‘Pretty soon, you will move onto wanting to see ALL thier stats, and ALL thier gear. Once anet gives you an inch, you’ll want to take a mile.’

That is a rather brazen assumption. Sounds like that republican argument against marriage equality. ‘If you let gays get married whats next!!? people marrying animals!?!?’

Kashien.6278:

Your misleading the public if you think magic find gear has no place in dungeons. Lol.

It has no place in performance in a dungeon. Magic find does not benefit your performance in a dungeon. Need I say it again… -_-

And now, because you lost an argument, your bringing politics into this. Nicely done. Evaded the general question just like a typical liberal.

swiftpaw.6397:

Kashien.6278:

Your misleading the public if you think magic find gear has no place in dungeons. Lol.

It has no place in performance in a dungeon. Magic find does not benefit your performance in a dungeon. Need I say it again… -_-

How does it not boost your performance, are there not other stats on that gear besides magic find?

Yes, MF has place in dungeon. But that’s when everyone has agreed to let you run that crap.

Yes you have two other stats. But without Magic find you could have 3 stats. I don’t know what isn’t getting through here…. 2 vs 3….

If you want magic find, you sacrifice a stat that affects performance. Magic find does one thing and one thing only. It affects the quality of the drop you get off a mob. It doesn’t up your health, it doesn’t up your DPS, it doesn’t do anything to your performance at all.

And now, because you lost an argument, your bringing politics into this. Nicely done. Evaded the general question just like a typical liberal.

I’m not losing an argument, because you have yet to make an actual argument, you have some circular logic complex going on. I have put forth my statement and you have yet to give me a rational and though out answer. I am not a ‘liberal’ either for what it matters.. I am not even american >_>