Guild Wars 2

You may think you and your pack of lvl 80’s are pretty pro by shuffling around the edges of his platform, but please understand that it makes you look like a complete amateur. Seriously, I’ve fought him with a group of lvl 50’s and no one was downed, convinced a bunch of 80’s with an ego that could barely fit in the dungeon and they ALL died. Seemingly incapable of a single well timed dodge once every 30 seconds. If you’re not capable of fighting the bosses that the dungeon can throw at you, then please, just don’t even try.
/end rant

Do you seriously think we’re skipping Kholer because we can’t kill him?

I only allowed my friends to skip that boss, once they mastered it and never got down while spanking him

I agree, people who skip it because they can’t face it aren’t “pro” by any means, and could use this boss as training ground for further dungeon experiences. People who skip it, because they can beat that boss with eyes closed, thumbs tied and keyboard hidden in another room should be free to do so, though. In current state, this boss doesn’t benefit player in any way. Just a waste of time in regular runs.

@lehova
I used to believe that people skip it, because they are all so good. But I found out it was wrong assumption. Most players just keep dying there, and they simply avoid this boss, cuz they can’t keep up their Uber Pro 1337 player image if they fail miserably in such place

It doesn’t mean that you are one of those too. Just the majority is like that.

Kholer’s easy, but much too long for virtually no rewards you get. Waste 5 minutes in a dungeon run for a boring fight just to get a slice of garlic bread?
I mean, yes – the first few encounters with Kholer were fun. We still kill him from time to time, just for entertainment. But there’s no need to, no point in it, we don’t need the waypoint nor the chest, and the fight isn’t that fun once you’ve killed him gazillion of times (3 characters fully outfit with AC gear).

I wouldn’t mind if he was made not skippable – if everything in dungeons was non-skippable – but as long as there’s something to safely skip, it saves you some time. We also got a dev comment on it that it’s a legit tactic

I really hate fighting him to be honest. I do like letting him and the troll fight each other though because it I think its the perfect afk break for the group. Back to him though, he offers me nothing for beating him but that chest which has such a small chance of decent loot that its just quicker to not fight him.

Get him and the troll to fight and carry on with your dungeon – pick the Kholer’s chest once you’re done with the final boss. No need to waste time – if i were to afk wait the troll/Kholer fight, i’d rather kill them myself.

drkn.3429:

Get him and the troll to fight and carry on with your dungeon – pick the Kholer’s chest once you’re done with the final boss. No need to waste time – if i were to afk wait the troll/Kholer fight, i’d rather kill them myself.

I have done that, but for whatever reason I had them reset if someone doesnt stay withen range to hit them ive noticed.

Kholer is the easiest part in all of AC but he takes time to kill, so dose killing the spider, burrow and trash mobs.
If you like to fight all of them for blue/greens then be my guest but it hardly make yourself a pro by killing them, not even Kholer :O , it just make you get some useless drops and lose some time.

Razzy.2741:

@lehova
I used to believe that people skip it, because they are all so good. But I found out it was wrong assumption. Most players just keep dying there, and they simply avoid this boss, cuz they can’t keep up their Uber Pro 1337 player image if they fail miserably in such place

It doesn’t mean that you are one of those too. Just the majority is like that.

If that is the case, what is the competency of these, as you said, “1337” players when they are against the Ghost Eater or Howling King? If they reasonably well against them, I would attribute their poor performance to lack of experience. Overall, he has only one key attack that should be avoided, namely the aoe pull into sword whirl.

Of all runs that I fought Khoeler, it was because the party insisted on it and I naturally chipped in since I wanted to be part of the group effort. However, he does not impede dungeon progress and by that definition, can be considered an optional boss. If the party is focused on getting the tokens, I find it totally fine if he is skipped.

Kholer isn’t hard, but he can be incredibly frustrating with any sort of latency fluctuations. Oh to count the number of times that I’ve dodged and been yanked out of mid-dodge to insta-die. I’m all for mistakes costing you but instant death on a thrown attack you need to perfectly time a dodge to avoid is kinda dumb. I mean with the red circles it’s very straight forward, move out of the circle or die. You know where it’s going to hit and you can dodge out of it as soon as you see them. With his attack you need to time it perfectly, which is wait until you see the animation then wait half a second before you dodge. Dodge to early? You die. Dodge too late? Well you wont! You’ll be dead. I’ve killed him without dying once and I’ve killed him where every single pull gets me due to latency.

The loot isn’t worth it, the waypoint isn’t needed, and the chance you mis-time a dodge or get yanked out of a dodge is enough to seal the deal; skip him.

Only reason ppl skip him is cuz it is faster to do so, kind of funny you thought ppl could not kill him. Who looks like an amateur now?

I remember it when at launch ppl thought u actually need to kill him and I don’t recall any of my pug groups wiping on him. (not that I killed him even once since then)

Razzy.2741:

Most players just keep dying there, and they simply avoid this boss, cuz they can’t keep up their Uber Pro 1337 player image if they fail miserably in such place

No, people skip this boss because he’s a boring timesink with horrible loot attached. I’d rather save those five minutes on my Omnombar so I can squeeze another path in.

Auesis.7301:

easiest boss fight in the game

That’s not the Searing Effigy.

Iehova.9518:

Auesis.7301:

easiest boss fight in the game

That’s not the Searing Effigy.

Easiest boss I ever fought was Zhaitan although I hear he is a bit stronger now

Distaste.4801:

Kholer isn’t hard, but he can be incredibly frustrating with any sort of latency fluctuations. Oh to count the number of times that I’ve dodged and been yanked out of mid-dodge to insta-die. I’m all for mistakes costing you but instant death on a thrown attack you need to perfectly time a dodge to avoid is kinda dumb. I mean with the red circles it’s very straight forward, move out of the circle or die. You know where it’s going to hit and you can dodge out of it as soon as you see them. With his attack you need to time it perfectly, which is wait until you see the animation then wait half a second before you dodge. Dodge to early? You die. Dodge too late? Well you wont! You’ll be dead. I’ve killed him without dying once and I’ve killed him where every single pull gets me due to latency.

The loot isn’t worth it, the waypoint isn’t needed, and the chance you mis-time a dodge or get yanked out of a dodge is enough to seal the deal; skip him.

This to be honest. Lots of people bragging how easy he is really makes no sense. Two things matter here; 1) being able to see the warning 2) reacting on time.

With regards to 1: It has been argued over and over that GW2 has some serious flaws in this department. This also goes for Kohler; he doesn’t telegraph his move all that well. Sure he glows first and then after a few seconds he throws his lines. If you have a Guardian or Elementalist with you, however, it can be seriously tough to spot. This is not difficulty, it’s bad design.

With regards to 2: It’s a fun idea to use reaction times to create difficulty, but this strategy is flawed when it comes to online games such as MMO’s. System latencies (such as network lag, FPS) are often much larger than human response latencies. Only in the best case scenario, the two will perhaps be roughly equal to each other. If you made the dodge, it tells us more about the state of your network than about your personal skills.

In short, Kohler suffers from the two most prominent design flaws in this game. He is certainly doable, but it is not fun nor rewarding in its current state. Besides, skills like Block trivialize the whole thing, making the “difficulty” rather profession / build dependent.

People don’t skip Kholer because he’s hard to kill, he’s skipped because it’s not worth the time. Even my guild mate who has a 2-3s lag due to his location can dodge him. First time ACers, if told to watch for the skill and dodge, can dodge him. He’s a good boss to teach people how to use the dodge mechanic properly, but that’s about it. I see him as a tutorial boss, nothing more.

I’ve solo’d him a few times, yet skip him in PUGs… although if someone offers to fight him I’ll gladly join in on the fun.

Kholer literally takes like 5min to kill if you’re bad. That time alone is made up by the waypoint you unlock, except for Tzark’s path.

Morrar.1764:

Distaste.4801:

Kholer isn’t hard, but he can be incredibly frustrating with any sort of latency fluctuations. Oh to count the number of times that I’ve dodged and been yanked out of mid-dodge to insta-die. I’m all for mistakes costing you but instant death on a thrown attack you need to perfectly time a dodge to avoid is kinda dumb. I mean with the red circles it’s very straight forward, move out of the circle or die. You know where it’s going to hit and you can dodge out of it as soon as you see them. With his attack you need to time it perfectly, which is wait until you see the animation then wait half a second before you dodge. Dodge to early? You die. Dodge too late? Well you wont! You’ll be dead. I’ve killed him without dying once and I’ve killed him where every single pull gets me due to latency.

The loot isn’t worth it, the waypoint isn’t needed, and the chance you mis-time a dodge or get yanked out of a dodge is enough to seal the deal; skip him.

This to be honest. Lots of people bragging how easy he is really makes no sense. Two things matter here; 1) being able to see the warning 2) reacting on time.

With regards to 1: It has been argued over and over that GW2 has some serious flaws in this department. This also goes for Kohler; he doesn’t telegraph his move all that well. Sure he glows first and then after a few seconds he throws his lines. If you have a Guardian or Elementalist with you, however, it can be seriously touch to spot. This is not difficulty, it’s bad design.

With regards to 2: It’s a fun idea to use reaction times to create difficulty, but this strategy is flawed when it comes to online games such as MMO’s. System latencies (such as network lag, FPS) are often much larger than human response latencies. Only in the best case scenario, the two will perhaps be roughly equal to each other. If you made the dodge, it tells us more about the state of your network than about your personal skills.

In short, Kohler suffers from the two most prominent design flaws in this game. He is certainly doable, but it makes it is not fun nor rewarding in its current state. Besides, skills like Block trivialize the whole thing, making the “difficulty” rather profession / build dependent.

^^^^

this guy. knows what’s up.

i think kholer’s an interesting and fun boss (i do think there’s a problem in that if your team is solid enough to beat him handily it doesn’t need the waypoint). a friend of mine who plays with an FPS and ping that are about half / twice mine dies just about everytime. we both know it’s coming, we’re both watching for it, sometimes i’ll call it out on mumble. but its timing is awkward, and he sees a really obscured glow followed at some point in time by death. not cool.

I usually just leave when pugs skips kholer, especially on path 3. It seems to be the path where most pugs struggle at(at the burrows in Lovers’ Cript). Kholer is also one of my favorite boss to fight.

@Morrar
About point 1, what do you mean by “If you have a Guardian or Elementalist with you, however, it can be seriously touch to spot”. Neither does anything flashy. It’s only hard to see bosses’ warnings when there is a zerg on them, but it’s not the case with kholer, as there can only be 5 players.

If they add better rewards to chests/bosses I want you to make another thread on people skipping him because they won’t.

I have to get over 1000 tokens. No I don’t want to waste time fighting Kholer.

Iehova.9518:

Razzy.2741:

Most players just keep dying there, and they simply avoid this boss, cuz they can’t keep up their Uber Pro 1337 player image if they fail miserably in such place

No, people skip this boss because he’s a boring timesink with horrible loot attached. I’d rather save those five minutes on my Omnombar so I can squeeze another path in.

I didn’t know you could even skip him but I agree with it, seriously the guy gives out garlic bread. Dungeon bosses need better rewards period.

lol no one skips him because he’s hard. We skip him because he’s a waste of time. I’ve beat him easily many times without dieing, until I realized there’s no reason to fight him after the chest stopped giving tokens.

Iehova.9518:

Do you seriously think we’re skipping Kholer because we can’t kill him?

I think what you will find is that a whole group of people can’t beat Kholer because they have never fought Kholer. I.e. every Ascalon Catacombs dungeon group they have ever been to skipped Kholer. So if they are suddenly forced to fight Kholer, they simply do not know what to do in that encounter.

I can think of at least two other dungeons where I fear that a large portion of the population do not know how to not skip certain encounters.

devs have said his fine to skip, his only currently there if you need a waypoint. They hopefully tweak loot soon

Tinni.4351:

Iehova.9518:

Do you seriously think we’re skipping Kholer because we can’t kill him?

I think what you will find is that a whole group of people can’t beat Kholer because they have never fought Kholer. I.e. every Ascalon Catacombs dungeon group they have ever been to skipped Kholer. So if they are suddenly forced to fight Kholer, they simply do not know what to do in that encounter.

I can think of at least two other dungeons where I fear that a large portion of the population do not know how to not skip certain encounters.

Bullseye. This leads to ‘Elitist Noobs’. The most hilarious thing I’ve ever seen is to watch a bunch of self proclaimed “pros” crash and burn against an easy boss.

I personally like to kill him. I don’t really see his loot bad you can make some money out of it and for me it is just part of the experience to have my bag full of stuff. So I don’t get the fuss of “crappy loot” and “trash mobs” having too much hp but hey that is just my personality speaking.

I never have had problems with kholer pulling me during dodge… I bet you were doding backwards or forward for that to happen but I can be wrong.

ilr.9675:

spreadsheets.9805:

Kholer literally takes like 5min to kill if you’re bad. That time alone is made up by the waypoint you unlock, except for Tzark’s path.

WP’s are for dead people

Waypoints are for teleporting closer to the next event, walking is really not my thing.

Mage.6045:

I personally like to kill him. I don’t really see his loot bad you can make some money out of it and for me it is just part of the experience to have my bag full of stuff. So I don’t get the fuss of “crappy loot” and “trash mobs” having too much hp but hey that is just my personality speaking.

I never have had problems with kholer pulling me during dodge… I bet you were doding backwards or forward for that to happen but I can be wrong.

I ask PUGs as soon as I join if they fight or not, a group 80’s tend not to, and are generally pretentious kittens in that case, I just leave then and there.

spreadsheets.9805:

Kholer literally takes like 5min to kill if you’re bad. That time alone is made up by the waypoint you unlock, except for Tzark’s path.

That Way Point is only helpful to players who then die in the next phase, which is very unlikely considering it’s the easiest stretch of both routes before another Waypoint is unlocked anyway further up ahead. So, If you’re not dead during those 5 or so minutes it takes to reach the next phase, then how is the WP useful?

Dolan.3071:

I ask PUGs as soon as I join if they fight or not, a group 80’s tend not to, and are generally pretentious kittens in that case, I just leave then and there.

Oh by the way what does that PUG stand for? Saw it couple of times on the post but didn’t quite figure it out.

Mage.6045:

Dolan.3071:

I ask PUGs as soon as I join if they fight or not, a group 80’s tend not to, and are generally pretentious kittens in that case, I just leave then and there.

Oh by the way what does that PUG stand for? Saw it couple of times on the post but didn’t quite figure it out.

Pick-Up-Group.

“Pubber” is also used interchangeably in some games (though usually more with PvP)

Ok that cleared it up. Thank you.

Mage.6045:

Dolan.3071:

I ask PUGs as soon as I join if they fight or not, a group 80’s tend not to, and are generally pretentious kittens in that case, I just leave then and there.

Oh by the way what does that PUG stand for? Saw it couple of times on the post but didn’t quite figure it out.

Hahaha I 100% did not google it today to figure it out. It means Pick Up Group, random group you find on map chat.

ilr.9675:

spreadsheets.9805:

Kholer literally takes like 5min to kill if you’re bad. That time alone is made up by the waypoint you unlock, except for Tzark’s path.

That Way Point is only helpful to players who then die in the next phase, which is very unlikely considering it’s the easiest stretch of both routes before another Waypoint is unlocked anyway further up ahead. So, If you’re not dead during those 5 or so minutes it takes to reach the next phase, then how is the WP useful?

What? That next event is the hardest one in the dungeon, you crazy.

There is absolutely no reason to waste a good 5~10 minutes on Kholer whereas you could have ended up by the scepter searching chamber, or have finished the flooded chamber challenge. People create speed runs group for a reason, these contents are simply not rewarding enough, and time consuming. We are given to option to skip, so why not? Heck, the group that I usually run with skip Queen > Kholer and proceed normally with the rest of the dungeon, it works totally fine.

FWIW, my guildies and I have gotten Superior Runes of the Monk and a bunch of 70+ rares from the chest at Kohler, and with a competent group (no one dies to the whirling attack), he takes only 2-3 minutes to kill max, not 5.

I’ve done about ~25 AC EM runs, and from chest loot alone I’ve gotten 3 Superior Runes of the Monk, 2 of which were from looting the chest from Kohler. 2 Superior Runes = 240 Tokens = 4 extra runs worth of bonus tokens.

In other words, Kohler is only a waste of time if your PUG’s keep dying to him.

edit: video evidence of Kohler only taking 3 min max, with a 3 man group! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjCttqquQoc

Tinni.4351:

I think what you will find is that a whole group of people can’t beat Kholer because they have never fought Kholer.

This makes no sense at all. Kholer is easy but not worth the time.

I can think of at least two other dungeons where I fear that a large portion of the population do not know how to not skip certain encounters.

95% of people are idiots, moving right along.

Iehova.9518:

Tinni.4351:

I think what you will find is that a whole group of people can’t beat Kholer because they have never fought Kholer.

This makes no sense at all. Kholer is easy but not worth the time.

Well I think that kind of was the point. Kholer is easy yes and people skip it because it is waste of time. So new players (yes there are and will be new players I’m sure) wont so easily get the chance to fight Kholer if they go with groups that tend to skip him.

So even thought he is easy to beat some players might not experience the easiness due to them always skipping him. That makes a whole lot of sense to me atleast but feel free to disagree

edit:
Thus these unexperienced players have not trained in the art of dodging Kholer’s pull attack

Let me explain. The dude above said:

I think what you will find is that a whole group of people can’t beat Kholer because they have never fought Kholer.

Which makes zero sense, because having never fought a boss does not imply anything. You can one-shot him or wipe on him for hours.

Then:

Thus these unexperienced players have not trained in the art of dodging Kholer’s pull attack

There are conveniently placed pillars that nullify his pull attack. Dodging isn’t the only way.

I like my dungeons to take unnecessarily long, so I always fight Kholer.

Amusingly, I did one meet a person who didn’t even know you could get around Kholer, despite claiming to have done the dungeon numerous times.

I was wondering what was taking so long so I popped open my map and saw his dot run right towards Kholer moments before rage quitting.

Wow, the OP is obviously just a troll and has abandoned the thread since long.

- Kohler is not hard and never was.
- Groups dont skip him because he is hard (see point 1).
- Groups skip him because he gives kitten rewards.

Can we just let this thread die please?

Gab Superstar.4059:

Wow, the OP is obviously just a troll and has abandoned the thread since long.

- Kohler is not hard and never was.
- Groups dont skip him because he is hard (see point 1).
- Groups skip him because he gives kitten rewards.

Can we just let this thread die please?

I’m glad your opinion on skipping Kholer is shared across every Guild Wars player ever. Thanks for clearing that up. So how is it that a group of lvl 80’s who always skip him ended up wiped? Please enlighten me oh wise one.

Dolan.3071:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Wow, the OP is obviously just a troll and has abandoned the thread since long.

- Kohler is not hard and never was.
- Groups dont skip him because he is hard (see point 1).
- Groups skip him because he gives kitten rewards.

Can we just let this thread die please?

I’m glad your opinion on skipping Kholer is shared across every Guild Wars player ever. Thanks for clearing that up. So how is it that a group of lvl 80’s who always skip him ended up wiped? Please enlighten me oh wise one.

I’m glad your experience on killing Kohler is shared across every Guild Wars player ever. Thanks for clearing that up. So how is it that a group of lvl 80’s who always skip him is representative for the entire game. Please enlighten me oh wise one.

Gab Superstar.4059:

Wow, the OP is obviously just a troll and has abandoned the thread since long.

- Kohler is not hard and never was.
- Groups dont skip him because he is hard (see point 1).
- Groups skip him because he gives kitten rewards.

Can we just let this thread die please?

I agree with the OP in that it irritates me when people want to skip Kholer, not because he’s hard yes or no but because hes one of the more fun bosses in the game. We always crack jokes about him.

- He was hard when we first went in 2 months ago and wiped several times trying to figure out the tactics and then proceeded to cower behind pillars to avoid his ability till we started to figure out we could dodge it and use feedback. People now get the tactics handed to them by those who’ve done them before. This is the same with all fights, it’s easy when you know how (well for most encounters anyway).

That’s why I would recommend to anyone new to dungeons to run them with others who are new to fully appreciate the effort that went into devising tactics when people like me and my party first started out.

- It is pure laziness and in some cases lack of skill, I had a few people wanting to skip and when we refused they got pulled into Kholer several times. That said though it’s not necessarily the case that there is a lack of skill but rather a lack of care about the dungeon content and only care about the reward at the end.

- This is not entirely true, I got a jug of karma out of his chest a week ago + You have the convenient waypoint there that helps you get about the dungeon much more efficiently.

I wish people would stop skipping content, I can sympathise with a couple of groups of non-boss mobs, but bosses? really? Why on earth are you even doing dungeons if you don’t enjoy the content if you skip bosses. Especially an awesome boss fight like Kholer, he’s one of the better ones.

Fay.2735:

Gab Superstar.4059:

Wow, the OP is obviously just a troll and has abandoned the thread since long.

- Kohler is not hard and never was.
- Groups dont skip him because he is hard (see point 1).
- Groups skip him because he gives kitten rewards.

Can we just let this thread die please?

I agree with the OP in that it irritates me when people want to skip Kholer, not because he’s hard yes or no but because hes one of the more fun bosses in the game. We always crack jokes about him.

- He was hard when we first went in 2 months ago and wiped several times trying to figure out the tactics and then proceeded to cower behind pillars to avoid his ability till we started to figure out we could dodge it and use feedback. People now get the tactics handed to them by those who’ve done them before. This is the same with all fights, it’s easy when you know how (well for most encounters anyway).

That’s why I would recommend to anyone new to dungeons to run them with others who are new to fully appreciate the effort that went into devising tactics when people like me and my party first started out.

- It is pure laziness and in some cases lack of skill, I had a few people wanting to skip and when we refused they got pulled into Kholer several times. That said though it’s not necessarily the case that there is a lack of skill but rather a lack of care about the dungeon content and only care about the reward at the end.

- This is not entirely true, I got a jug of karma out of his chest a week ago + You have the convenient waypoint there that helps you get about the dungeon much more efficiently.

I wish people would stop skipping content, I can sympathise with a couple of groups of non-boss mobs, but bosses? really? Why on earth are you even doing dungeons if you don’t enjoy the content if you skip bosses. Especially an awesome boss fight like Kholer, he’s one of the better ones.

If it irritates you, then leave the group. If it irritates a majority of the group, kick the players who wish to skip. It has been repeated so many times in this forum: Don’t tell people how they are supposed to enjoy the game. Fun is subjective.

Again, I will bring up the SC argument. In GW1, why did people dump fortunes in trying to go from a 15 minute UW to a 14 minute? A 18min DoA to a 17min? Because they had fun doing so!

It’s not pure laziness or lack of skill. It’s how people enjoy doing dungeons. Stop telling people otherwise.

Fay.2735:

Why on earth are you even doing dungeons if you don’t enjoy the content if you skip bosses. Especially an awesome boss fight like Kholer, he’s one of the better ones.

Uh, the loot, maybe? As far as I know the Kholer fight doesn’t change after the first time you do it. None of the dungeons does.

Also I needed one look at Kholer’s scorpion wire to figure out the “tactics”/to dodge. After doing many CoE’s before then, having a boss with actual telegraphs was child’s play.

Gab Superstar.4059:

If it irritates you, then leave the group. If it irritates a majority of the group, kick the players who wish to skip. It has been repeated so many times in this forum: Don’t tell people how they are supposed to enjoy the game. Fun is subjective.

Again, I will bring up the SC argument. In GW1, why did people dump fortunes in trying to go from a 15 minute UW to a 14 minute? A 18min DoA to a 17min? Because they had fun doing so!

It’s not pure laziness or lack of skill. It’s how people enjoy doing dungeons. Stop telling people otherwise.

I never played Guild Wars 1 (yet) so I don’t know the things you are referring to. Sure if you want to be the fastest at a dungeon and find that fun I can semi understand the challenge in that but I don’t know I just like spending time with friends, relaxing our way through a dungeon, messing about, having a laugh. Making fun of Kholer’s love for ropes

I guess what I’m saying is that in any group I’ve been in that wanted to speed through dungeons there was practically zero communication and to me it was boring.

Plus I feel if you want to do a dungeon fastest you should aim at doing all the content within the dungeon you were intended to do in the fastest time. Skipping it IMO is cheating that race type of challenge.

UnrepentantProcrastinator.7420:

Fay.2735:

Why on earth are you even doing dungeons if you don’t enjoy the content if you skip bosses. Especially an awesome boss fight like Kholer, he’s one of the better ones.

Uh, the loot, maybe? As far as I know the Kholer fight doesn’t change after the first time you do it. None of the dungeons does.

Also I needed one look at Kholer’s scorpion wire to figure out the “tactics”/to dodge. After doing many CoE’s before then, having a boss with actual telegraphs was child’s play.

If you enjoy skipping all the fun fights and content just to get some silvers that your choice true but I think it’s sad that you can’t see the enjoyment of doing fights like Kholer.

Yes, of course you will understand how the game mechanics works when you’ve done CoE but at the time we did the fight people weren’t high enough level to do CoE (Well for the most part).

Nobody knew what dungeons were like, how to deal with the mechanics. It was all figured out as we went along from dungeon to dungeon. We learnt the dungeons the hard way without guidance.

As for loot, to me it’s mostly a bonus for doing the fun content. Still after hundreds of times doing dungeons I do them for fun. Sure I like and want the reward just as much as the next person but it’s not the reason of doing dungeons. I can get those same rewards elsewhere.