Guild Wars 2

Dungeons in GW2 are getting dangerously filled with jerks who just want to skip, zerk and bully any player who actually wants to enjoy the content of the game.

What the hell is up with these nasty people on dungeons keen on not letting others enjoy the game? It’s really starting to get under my skin. Or I am delusional in trying to help other players, not skipping mobs and enjoying the content the developers created for us?

I’ve experienced people telling others after they told them it’s their first time in that path and that they want to see the cinematics (not speed runs, not on CoF) “go watch the videos on youtube, noob”, “oh, the little noob wants to see the videos!”.

One time 2 people on my party said they wanted to kill the mobs instead of skipping them in TA “also for the loot” and the reply was “LOOT? go farm Orr instead LOL”.

Once I was kicked from a party because I refused to take orders from some random dude who was horrified when I actually said I didn’t want to skip the mobs. IRONY: I ended up being re-invited to the team because they needed me after all. (I told them to kitten off by then)

One time I was in a group where 3 of us kept dying trying to skip the mobs and 2 random players who refused to stop running kept going without us knowing we were being unable to pass the mobs. I stayed behind trying to help these new players who were seemingly lacking in evasive skills (one of them was a low level engineer and still learning I guess). Eventually they came back for us when they realized they couldn’t kill the final boss by themselves. I told them how stupid of a strategy it was to ignore that more than half of your team was dead and unable to progress. I was then called a noob and kicked out. Bad for them, though, I was the instance creator.

Suddenly skipping and speed running is the only “cool” way to do dungeons, even if it’s some forsaken Sorrow’s Embrace story mode. God forbid anyone wanting to kill the mobs! What, risking gaining some exp and loot! LOL NOOB L2P!!1

And worst, sometimes people even end up dying more often because their team decides to skip mobs than because of the actual fighting the mobs. It just gets stupid. You waste more time rezzing, WP and running back because you’re saving time not killing mobs. !?

I do understand how speed runs work. That’s why I only do them when I specifically want to farm tokens and such. But these previous examples were all from “normal” runs – whatever that means. Even when you warn people you want see the videos or that “can we not skip the mobs this time?”, most of the times people just run it through half-way. It’s just depressing.

I don’t care if some human gamer bots want to run back and forth killing the same 2 bosses and dodging the same five fire balls every 8 minutes. But why do we all have to accommodate to this mindless-grind playstyle of people who only care about the gold per second ratio?

Also, not being a newcomer to MMO’s, I’m used to jerks trying to bully others and “being l33t and OMG so much better than anyone else”, only to have them choke on their words later when I’m the one rezzing them for the 5th time. But this is Guild Wars 2, I have different expectations for it community-wise.

[/rant]

Solutions?

What I tell my friends is:

- avoid “speed runs”, people looking for specific classes (as in, warriors) or advertising for “no noobs” when looking for groups (because 9 out of 10 times, these are jerks);
- leave groups where they ask you to ping your equipment/trinkets or where people force you to play a certain style;
- try to ask people in beginning of the runs not to skip the mobs;
- try to play with your guild/irl friends;
- when someone gets left behind, ask people to join you and helping them;
- and stand up against bullies and people trying to be elitist, don’t tolerate abuse.

(“zerker” as in, people only wanting players in full berzerker gear)

What do you think?
/endure pain

TLDR: skip-elitist-zerkers are ruining the game.

AmateurGod.5403:

What do you think?

I think this horse has been beaten enough.

I agree that the elitism is getting a bit out of hand, but about the mob skipping, there is a reason people do that. They have way too much health and not enough reward for killing them, so the time cost-reward ratio is really bad. That’s why people often skip mobs because in the end most of the good loot comes from chests or bosses. I’m not saying you can’t get a random exotic off a mob, but the chances are slim and not worth the time. Mobs can also present problems to more inexperience parties, causing downs/deaths/wipes if you don’t know what you are doing. Skipping them prevents that from happening and actually saves a lot of time in some cases.

Blix.8021:

AmateurGod.5403:

What do you think?

I think this horse has been beaten enough.

If it’s still happening and more and more often, I guess that horse needs something else besides a beating.

Its not the rewards for trash mobs being bad, the rewards for other stuff is too good. If you would improve trash mob rewards it could have nasty effects on the economy.

That’s the internet for you and will probably be a huge setback to any public grouping in future MMOs to come. I highly value groups made with guild/friends these days. I only PuG dungeons when my friends are offline and I don’t feel like being too serious.

I don’t care if some human gamer bots want to run back and forth killing the same 2 bosses and dodging the same five fire balls every 8 minutes. But why do we all have to accommodate to this mindless-grind playstyle of people who only care about the gold per second ratio?

Content Locusts aren’t necessarily catered to, they just sort of exist in spite of things.

Not that I think the Skipping part of this is necessarily a Locust thing. I agree with CelestialWurm, if it’s permeated the casual demographic as solidly as the forums report, then that genuinely needs a looking at. And it is being looked at as far as I can tell.

Also, supposedly there’s ‘new ways you can earn precursors as rewards via new reward systems taking advantage of our open persistent world’. Hopefully that will sort of re-distribute these folks a bit so they’re not running dungeons in such an insanely high concentration.

Maybe if they didn’t give bosses/mobs so much HP, reducing the mobs HP by 80% and giving them more interesting scripts would go a long way to prevent skipping.

A long post triggered by bad experiences. When you are LFG, pick the one that suits your playstyle such full clears or skip all trash. You have a higher chance to get what you want. If you join a generic group that doesnt post much details on what they are looking for, you might get ppl with different things in mind playing together.

I agree with CelestialWyrm on time-cost reward. But I disagree on inexperienced parties skipping to make it easier. If im in a group with newcomers, I generally want to clear trash mobs as much as possible. This to faciliate newcomers to run back from a spawn point if needed.

AmateurGod.5403:

Dungeons in GW2 are getting dangerously filled with jerks who just want to skip, zerk and bully any player who actually wants to enjoy the content of the game.

Calling other people jerks just shows your lack of culture. Also those people also enjoy the game, but in a different way. What makes your playstyle better than theirs?

What the hell is up with these nasty people on dungeons keen on not letting others enjoy the game?

You mean the ones rattling about how skipping is exploiting and crying on forums how most of the people don’t want to change their playstyle just because they want them to?

It’s really starting to get under my skin.

Too bad for you. Luckily, most people don’t have that kind of problems

Or I am delusional in trying to help other players, not skipping mobs and enjoying the content the developers created for us?

Judging from the amount of posts that condemn skipping there are some people that think like you. Why don’t you play with them? Sure, those people are a minority but I think you should be able to collect five of them to form a party.

One time 2 people on my party said they wanted to kill the mobs instead of skipping them in TA “also for the loot” and the reply was “LOOT? go farm Orr instead LOL”.

Mobs in orr seem to be a better choice for farming. Unfortunately mobs in dungeons have poor droprates so people skip them. They could answer in more polite manner though.

One time I was in a group where 3 of us kept dying trying to skip the mobs and 2 random players who refused to stop running kept going without us knowing we were being unable to pass the mobs. I stayed behind trying to help these new players who were seemingly lacking in evasive skills (one of them was a low level engineer and still learning I guess). Eventually they came back for us when they realized they couldn’t kill the final boss by themselves. I told them how stupid of a strategy it was to ignore that more than half of your team was dead and unable to progress. I was then called a noob and kicked out. Bad for them, though, I was the instance creator.

Unfortunately people don’t understand that if the team doesn’t have the skill to skip efficiently they shouldn’t do it. But this is a problem with the people not skipping itself.

I don’t care if some human gamer bots want to run back and forth killing the same 2 bosses and dodging the same five fire balls every 8 minutes. But why do we all have to accommodate to this mindless-grind playstyle of people who only care about the gold per second ratio?

You don’t have to, isn’t that wonderfull?

TLDR: skip-elitist-zerkers are ruining the game.

Nope, they aren’t. That’s only your point of view.

AmateurGod.5403:

Blix.8021:

AmateurGod.5403:

What do you think?

I think this horse has been beaten enough.

If it’s still happening and more and more often, I guess that horse needs something else besides a beating.

This horse is very strong and can take insane amount of beating.

Daecollo.9578:

Maybe if they didn’t give bosses/mobs so much HP, reducing the mobs HP by 80% and giving them more interesting scripts would go a long way to prevent skipping.

That is a very good suggestion, I hope to see this in the future.

i just follow the crowd im a follower not a leader. if everyone kills mobs i will too.

I wasn’t aware “zerking” was a thing now.

Here’s my issue: wanting to watch the videos, kill all the mobs, and otherwise PLAY THE GAME (as opposed to EARN ALL THE TOKENS) does not make you a n00b.

Some of us just prefer to work for real money at our real jobs and play games for fun in our spare time. We shouldn’t be insulted for that.

Are you all about 6m speed runs? Fine. Be open about it when you try to party up and make it easier for us to avoid you.

timmyf.1490:

Are you all about 6m speed runs? Fine. Be open about it when you try to party up and make it easier for us to avoid you.

“lf3m full dps wars cof p1 farm” – what can be more open than that?

Phoenix.7845:

timmyf.1490:

Are you all about 6m speed runs? Fine. Be open about it when you try to party up and make it easier for us to avoid you.

“lf3m full dps wars cof p1 farm” – what can be more open than that?

Some groups just don’t post clearly on gw2lfg. Sometimes, there’s an empty description. Sometimes they’ll say speed clear when you can clear the cof paths in under 10 minutes with a few other compositions other than full warrior or w/e. Your example is a dps farming group that knows what they want and are making it clear, which is what all dps farming group posts should look like.

You can clear cof1 with 3 guardians in less than 9 minutes when killing everything, including bonus event.

Phoenix.7845:

timmyf.1490:

Are you all about 6m speed runs? Fine. Be open about it when you try to party up and make it easier for us to avoid you.

“lf3m full dps wars cof p1 farm” – what can be more open than that?

Yeah, nothing is wrong with that. That’s not what the OP is complaining about.

Blame lack of reward for 1+ hr dungeons or killing full mobs, and blame the need to grind gold like crazy for endgame skins.

timmyf.1490:

Here’s my issue: wanting to watch the videos, kill all the mobs, and otherwise PLAY THE GAME (as opposed to EARN ALL THE TOKENS) does not make you a n00b.

Some of us just prefer to work for real money at our real jobs and play games for fun in our spare time. We shouldn’t be insulted for that.

Are you all about 6m speed runs? Fine. Be open about it when you try to party up and make it easier for us to avoid you.

This. ^

AmateurGod.5403:

TLDR: skip-elitist-zerkers are ruining the game.

Incorrect! The developers’ choice in designing the parts in between the major bosses in dungeons to be nothing short of unrewarding waste of time is “ruining the game”.

Skippin’ and zerkin’ are just natural results of players having figured this out. Go in, ’zerk the bosses, get your Tokens and get out. Maximum efficiency.

Inflation.

The increase in money supply (via dungeon speedruns) is driving up market prices. As prices rise, legendary components (particularly the most rare: t6 materials and lodestones) are becoming more and more expensive.

John Smith (Arenanet’s economist) himself has suggested that players invest into commodities. I suggest people find a market that will be a hedge against inflation such as the ultra-rare skins from the Karka event (which won’t drop again), as opposed to the Halloween/Christmas ones (which will).

People will always gravitate towards the path that gives the least resistance for the most reward.

I too hate this method of skipping 90% of the dungeon. (And I’m a thief, of all classes)

I think the issue was hit upon in the dungeon earlier, mobs are way too time consuming and risky, and don’t contribute anything interesting compared to the end-dungeon reward. The fact is that putting the metaphorical carrot on a stick at the end of a dungeon causes people to get to the end through any means necessary.

Arenanet’s taken steps to experiment with streamlining more, by having boss chests before the end give out 3 tokens each. This is still nothing compared to the 60 tokens
at the end, however.

If we want the problem of everyone skipping most of the dungeon fixed, the obvious solution is to intersperse those rewards onto the trash mobs and other bosses, perhaps dangle a slight bit more at the end to keep the whole feel of “congrats! you finished a dungeon!”

Trash mobs should have a rather high chance of dropping a token, karma drops, bags of coins, the stuff people actually run the dungeon for in the first place. This way people will WANT to kill the trash for their phat lewts. But hey, if some groups of trash are atrociously overpowered, you would still have the opportunity to skip it.

Just talking off the top of my head here, but what do you guys think?

Giving trash mob better incentives theoretically can make skipping less attractive. But it raises other problems like Magic Find Leechers. There always be ways to optimize the process of gaining rewards from dungeons and there will always some sort of separation between ppl who want to approach dungeons differently. Best way forward is to link up with like-minded ppl to run dungeons together.

As for speedruns causing inflation, I think you got it backwards. Prices of some mats and items on the TP are priced ridiculously high to start with. If you do not wanna play the TP, dungeons is the next viable option to earn gold at a rate that is HIGHER than rate of price increase of such items (eg. precusors, lodes). If I want to afford a pricey precursor on the TP (which I have already recently bought), skipping makes farming the gold needed more efficient.

Well, you may be talking off the top of your head,
but you basically said what’s on the table anyway. So yeah, I sure hope we agree. :p

Magic Find is kind of it’s own big barrel of problem that needs it’s own clever solution. I’m not saying making trash mobs have a better risk/reward ratio wouldn’t be affected by it, but I am saying it’s not like Magic Find couldn’t stand to be altered anyway. And really, that’s a crummy reason to force content to remain stagnant when so many people are asking for an improvement.

Vox Hollow.2736:

Well, you may be talking off the top of your head,
but you basically said what’s on the table anyway. So yeah, I sure hope we agree. :p

Magic Find is kind of it’s own big barrel of problem that needs it’s own clever solution. I’m not saying making trash mobs have a better risk/reward ratio wouldn’t be affected by it, but I am saying it’s not like Magic Find couldn’t stand to be altered anyway. And really, that’s a crummy reason to force content to remain stagnant when so many people are asking for an improvement.

The way I see it most of these cries for changes are the one who had bad experiences by bad parties with unhelpful team mates. Bag gamers with bad attitudes. No amount of game mechanics can change how these group of ppl react. And the most obvious solution has already been given which is partying with like-minded ppl. Many ppl ask for changes and there are also many voices on the contrary.

As of now, there are a different variety of ppl running dungeons for different reasons. And currently you can CHOOSE to run dungeons the way you way you want provided some effort is made at the group forming stage. Choice.

Just to quote Robert himself:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

It’s one of those human things to do something with the path of least resistance and danger, especially when there is a reward at the end. I could make enemies never drop their aggro on players and force them to fight every single mob, but I don’t see that as a viable solution right now.
I think the better solution is to look at why people are skipping things, and approach from a different angle. Trash mobs have too much HP, and can’t be counted on for lucrative drops from a Risk/Time vs Reward, so people interested in making money (most groups) aren’t incentivized to do it, whereas the end chest/boss are more guaranteed and accountable returns on time and risk. I also think there is something to be said about interesting trash mob mechanics making them more enjoyable of a fight.
I can’t make the rewards from trash mobs so lucrative though that people just farm the first couple trash mobs/boss in a dungeon and then rinse/repeat. We encountered this when people just farmed the first boss in an instance and then restarted it (earlier around launch time), and we had to adjust the content as a result. It’s a fine line you have to walk to encourage players to get to the end, but make the process of getting there rewarding enough as well.

I don’t imagine this next update will resolve all the skipping behavior. The path of least resistance is engrained in people, and even if I do everything I could to incentivize people, there will still be those who skip stuff. I have been fixing exploits that will require players to complete more of the events in dungeons, but I am sure people will still skip what they can to get to their end goal.

For now I would encourage those not looking to skip to find some folks who don’t like skipping and make a guild with them… or maybe look for guilds that are dedicated to not skipping, and tag along with them. I’m in a couple of them (anonymously), and it really is an effective solution to playing the game the way you want to play it: Find other people with similar interests and band together with them.

If people say dungeon mobs don’t feel rewarding and entertaining enough, I’ve got no reasons to suspect they’re actually complaining about some other completely different socially-related thing. Why wouldn’t you just take that at face value? That seems like awfully clear game-mechanics related feedback to me.

And you’ll still have that choice?
Once Mr. Hrouda and his recently acquired sidekick manage to tackle the painstakingly delicate task of making a trail of breadcrumbs satisfying without spoiling your dinner. You can still just ignore the improved risk/reward ratio and waltz past mobs if you want to.

If you wanna take things at face value, go right on ahead. Why can’t I think about the motivations bout why ppl dislike/like so much about skipping?

I don’t get the 2nd part of your comment. Because I personally run dungeons for my reasons. At the same time, I fully respect why others want to run the dungeons their own ways. I do not intend to impose my playstyle onto others so I am selective when joining groups. So I would appreciate if you don’t make it sound like it is all about me because it isn’t.

As someone just starting to tackle the dungeon business (and having a generally positive experience on the way), all I can do is comment form newbie perspective. So:

- I have no issues with specific restrictions set by the group, as long as they’re clearly communicated from the start. I think everyone is entitled to playing the game the way it suits him, just don’t ruin my day by piling expectations and demands once we’re in. If you have specific plans/requirements for the run, please phrase your LFM call accordingly.

- I always tell the group leader I’m new when I volunteer for the run. If they don’t want me, it’s their choice, but if they DO take me, I’d at least like a warning before they do skipping/unconventional stuff. I said I’m new, don’t expect me to know all the quirks by heart. Watching Youtube vids can only take you so far.

- From personal experience, skipping can be harsh on a new player (I generally die more on skipping than in actual combat), and TBH I don’t have a feeling I’m learning a lot while doing this. Not all skipping groups are inherently nasty (the ones I’ve run with were all rather nice and understanding), but really, at least specifying skipping/no skipping in LFM call should be the norm.

TL;DR – I think it’s OK to do whatever you wish on your run, but if it’s anything else than old fashioned method, please specify your plans/expectations in your LFM call so there are no surprises.

You can totally talk about that if you want to. But, me and Mastergeese were talking about the causes for skipping itself, not what causes people to like or dislike skipping. You put it under a quote of mine, so I kind of thought you were responding to me, not starting a different related topic.

It’s not really about imposing other people’s will on you.
It’s just that in the process of discussing skipping people have articulated some pretty reasonable critiques about dungeon mobs, and it seems Anet is taking that feedback into consideration. Making improvements based on feedback isn’t an effort to oppress you, it’s just making improvements.

I’m not a big fan of skipping, atleast not in fractals where you know the mobs drop loot (besides blizzard map, either bugged or nerfed drop rate). But for instance on jade maw I prefer killing, not only for drops, but incase someone gets an unfortunate shot in the back while jumping, I dont feel like suiciding to rezz, since it costs more time than clearing everything.

However if people skip I tag along and skip.

What does tick me off however are the “elitists” that have to exploit every possible boss. Like the Mossman for instance. I was in a group with a friend of mine a few days back along with 3 puggers, the two of us aswell as one of the puggers refused to exploit on him, in return we got a rage fit by one of the memebers. Claiming he joined up for a speedrun (which we said, skipping everything except on jade maw), then calling us “noob” for doing it the proper way.

Now who is the noob? The guy that feels a need to exploit or the people that can handle the fight the way its supposed to be handled?

Those people just make me sick. I dont feel like risking my account due to some lazy SoBs feeling the need to exploit.

This is a much better sounding post than before. Thank you.

Within Robert’s quote I gave with regards to skipping, he gave some insight on some reservations he considered when increasing incentives to mob kills. I know making improvements based on feedback isn’t about oppressing me. I never said it did. More specifically I have the same reservations as what Robert mentioned which is incentivizing with better loot. If it is not implemented well, it could do more harm than good.

I think you should follow your own advise. This mentality has arisen because the meta currently rewards it. It’s rewarding to speed-clear for maximum tokens/profit and it generates a narcissistic mentality in those who capable of clearing dungeons the fastest. The advice you’re giving to your friends is as far as your going to get in changing the social norms of pugs yourself. Pressing the matter further on people who are unwilling to comply will only generate conflict and make you an active participant in it.

Unfortunately many of those mobs are more or less designed to be skipped. They’re giant, minimally threatening HP sacks with terrible drop tables.

They’ve made changes to dungeons recently to discourage players from killing mobs, such as in the Snowblind fractal; wiping out the mobs in the forest used to be a rewarding use of your time, but now that their drop tables have been wiped you really should be running past them.