Guild Wars 2

First, just get a real party system in place for them, not this squad crap. Several times now, I’ve set up a pug, only for someone to tag up, take control, and kick me to make room for their friends, or because they don’t like the class I play, or they just don’t like me, or something. I shouldn’t have to go out and spend days in utter boredom farming 300g just to have control of my group.

And, speaking of pugs, they basically don’t exist. Wanna know why? It’s because you decided to make lockouts per account, instead of per character. All that does is make raiding a guild-exclusive thing, and make pugging basically impossible. Anyone who clears the raid with their guild isn’t goinna want to pug and run it again like most other MMOs, since the lockout is for their whole account.

So, please, if you want to include raiding in your game, at least do it right. Make the lockouts per character (or give me a kitten ed good reason why it’s per account), and make a real party system that doesn’t rely on the archaic commander squad system.

First, this belongs in the Fractals, Dungeons and Raids forum.

Second, raids always ment to be high difficulty organised group content, thus they are more likely to be completed by guilds. Arenanet even stated before adding the first wing that they expect pugs to only get so far before it required dedicated raid groups. The fact that raids are easy enough that they can be puged is more a design flaw and caving to the low skill cap of casual players. This is not WoW LFR though where you get to run through halfblind and still get loot.

Third, lockouts while certainly not benefiting the pool of available players for raids are in place for a reason (balance of raid rewards per account). They are a common practice for this kind of content in every MMO. They also mean that players with say 12 characters like myself or 30+ characters like some others don’t fill up on raids rewards withint 1-2 weeks (again leaving the pool of players after).

Final thought, if you are serious about raiding there is no reason not to apply to a guild and stop pugging or at least get some like minded players and start running a dedicated group. This seems a bit more inuitive as solution to me than reworking the party and commander system (which does not solve the core problem of you playing seemingly a class which is undesired or getting kicked for whatever reason).

Cyninja.2954:

First, this belongs in the Fractals, Dungeons and Raids forum.

Second, raids always ment to be high difficulty organised group content, thus they are more likely to be completed by guilds. Arenanet even stated before adding the first wing that they expect pugs to only get so far before it required dedicated raid groups. The fact that raids are easy enough that they can be puged is more a design flaw and caving to the low skill cap of casual players. This is not WoW LFR though where you get to run through halfblind and still get loot.

Third, lockouts while certainly not benefiting the pool of available players for raids are in place for a reason (balance of raid rewards per account). They are a common practice for this kind of content in every MMO. They also mean that players with say 12 characters like myself or 30+ characters like some others don’t fill up on raids rewards withint 1-2 weeks (again leaving the pool of players after).

Final thought, if you are serious about raiding there is no reason not to apply to a guild and stop pugging or at least get some like minded players and start running a dedicated group. This seems a bit more inuitive as solution to me than reworking the party and commander system (which does not solve the core problem of you playing seemingly a class which is undesired or getting kicked for whatever reason).

I don’t like guilds, and they don’t like me. I play like a super neckbeard hardcore nerd, but I have the mindset of a casual — in other words, I play a lot and I play well, but I don’t treat the game like a job, and just have fun with it. So, I have to either go with a hardcore guild that can keep up with me but sucks all the fun out of the game, or join a casual guild that drives me crazy with their incompetence. Both of those just wouldn’t work for me. Sure, I could try making my own guild, but I’m not really a people person, and typically make people hate me before they like me, so it’d never go anywhere.

In my >10 years of playing WoW, I never had a guild, but I did all the raid content when it was new and fresh. I even pugged heroic stuff and did fine, not just LFR. When people can function in a raid, and know what to do (or are capable of learning), you clear things without a guild. To act like a guild is a requirement for raiding is just silly.

And, no. Literally every other game with raiding does lockouts per character, not account. If they’re so afraid of people getting loot, just make all ascended drops in the raid soulbound, and magnetite shards per character. Boom. Now you have a reason to constantly run with all your characters. But, I’m sure there’s some greedy F2P philosophy behind it, so I don’t think they really care.

Well, one reason I get kicked every now and then is because I like to play a power Scrapper. Did a lot of testing on the golem, and I do just as much (and often more) damage as a condi Engi — and I’m not even full ascended. People are just so afraid of the raids in this game, even though they’re kittening pathetic compared to every other game in the genre.

The system is fine. Don’t blame it while you being the problem. If people don’t want to have your power scrapper you have to deal with it. According to qTs benchmark tests there is a reason why people don’t rely on your build. Pugs want to be successful so they try to get the best group they can. They cannot know how good or bad you are although you pretend to be the grandmaster himself which is at least doubtful or uncertain.
I pug regularly and I have never been kicked from a raid group so far because I bring in what’s needed, don’t act like a smart-kitten and try to give hints for improval if anything isn’t going to work like it should be.
People that are getting kicked often or significantly more often than the average should look for their own deficiencies first before criticising systems that are fine for the usual playerbase.

tl;dr
Don’t ask yourself what people can do for you, ask yourself what you can do for them!

Tahlie.4259:

I don’t like guilds, and they don’t like me. I play like a super neckbeard hardcore nerd, but I have the mindset of a casual — in other words, I play a lot and I play well, but I don’t treat the game like a job, and just have fun with it. So, I have to either go with a hardcore guild that can keep up with me but sucks all the fun out of the game, or join a casual guild that drives me crazy with their incompetence. Both of those just wouldn’t work for me. Sure, I could try making my own guild, but I’m not really a people person, and typically make people hate me before they like me, so it’d never go anywhere.

This seems more of a personal problem. Suffice to say there are enough guilds with likeminded individuals. Your tone and the fact that you differentiate in such manner between casual and hardcore players (there is enough hardcore players who are below average and enough casual players who are quite decent) does raise eyebrows though. Maybe it’s a problem with the attitude you bring to the table, but that is pure speculation.

Again, this is a personal problem and not one of how raids or parties are implemented. If you are not a people person you will have a harder time in MMO group content to succeed. Changing the party system to a more unflexible “1 rules over all” party leader will not fix this. If absolutely necessary, you have the option of buying a commander tag, I doubt though this will increase or further your enjoyment of the game. People will simply leave your group/party and reform without you.

Tahlie.4259:

In my >10 years of playing WoW, I never had a guild, but I did all the raid content when it was new and fresh. I even pugged heroic stuff and did fine, not just LFR. When people can function in a raid, and know what to do (or are capable of learning), you clear things without a guild. To act like a guild is a requirement for raiding is just silly.

WoW raiding changed a lot between vanilla and now. Heroic modes, LFR, flex raids were not in place. I find it doubtful that you completed raids pre WotLK when they were “new and fresh” without a dedicated raid group or guild (especially sicne most raids were 40-man). Maybe once pugs started clearing them which was usually a good 3-6 months after initial release. I’m not going to get into detail how raiding difficulties changed with WotLK, let’s just remember that, the addition of multiple tiers of difficulty had a reason (aka normal and hard were no where near what basic raid difficulty was in the past).

Biggest difference though is, raid loot in WoW (and games with similar raid design) is class bound. Raid rewards here are account bound.

And, no. Literally every other game with raiding does lockouts per character, not account. If they’re so afraid of people getting loot, just make all ascended drops in the raid soulbound, and magnetite shards per character. Boom. Now you have a reason to constantly run with all your characters. But, I’m sure there’s some greedy F2P philosophy behind it, so I don’t think they really care.

Yes, because changing an entire loot system, inventory ressource system with abstract penalties is more convenient than the current system.

Tahlie.4259:

Well, one reason I get kicked every now and then is because I like to play a power Scrapper. Did a lot of testing on the golem, and I do just as much (and often more) damage as a condi Engi — and I’m not even full ascended. People are just so afraid of the raids in this game, even though they’re kittening pathetic compared to every other game in the genre.

Not playing a class desired by 9 other members of your group no matter if reasonable or not will always cause problems. I’ll rephrase what I said in point one, changing the party lead system to a more dictatorial one will not resolve the issue (people will just leave your group and reform, especially once they are close to full).

Tahlie.4259:

First, just get a real party system in place for them, not this squad crap. Several times now, I’ve set up a pug, only for someone to tag up, take control, and kick me

This is painfully sad, but don’t expect anyone here to understand or even respect the fact it was you who showed initiative and started your own group and then got kicked from it.

You can read the other comments, looking for some answers, but I don’t think they will provide you any insight beyond the reality that if you plan to enjoy doing a raid on any level, without the snark and elitism, you gonna have to stick with friends and people you know.

These forums made it clear to me, that when it came to doing raids, It was best to stay with guild/friends only, just not worth the frustration to deal with anyone outside that circle.

I’m pretty much in the same situation, Tahlie, though I never did start my own group. You starting your own and getting kicked from it is bloody ridiculous, though I’m just gonna put my two cents and say that that was a rare situation of encountering a very specific group of kittenbags. I don’t think it’s going to happen very often.
I completely agree about the CMD tag complaint, though. Even people I know start to think that you need a tag in order to have a chance at leading a raid group, which I think is utter bullpoo.

Hey, at least you still want to do the content and not just give up & stop playing until raids stop being the only new notable PvE content getting released, like me. : P

Tahlie.4259:

I don’t like guilds, and they don’t like me. I play like a super neckbeard hardcore nerd, but I have the mindset of a casual — in other words, I play a lot and I play well, but I don’t treat the game like a job, and just have fun with it. So, I have to either go with a hardcore guild that can keep up with me but sucks all the fun out of the game, or join a casual guild that drives me crazy with their incompetence. Both of those just wouldn’t work for me.

Have you actually even tried a GW2 raiding guild? My current (and the previous one too, actually) raiding guild is pretty relaxed, there isn’t even any set schedule for raiding, just people simply asking in guild chat “anyone want to do first wing?”. And they usually got answer quick if it’s monday or tuesday. Hell, some group in the guild don’t even mind taking people with no kill experience.

If they’re so afraid of people getting loot, just make all ascended drops in the raid soulbound, and magnetite shards per character. Boom. Now you have a reason to constantly run with all your characters.

Uhh, I don’t understand it. If that’s the case, people will simply just run the raid multiple times with THEIR GUILD then. I mean, I will just simply raid at Monday on my Tempest, then on my DH at Tuesday, then on my Necro at Wednesday, and so on =/

Well, one reason I get kicked every now and then is because I like to play a power Scrapper

Ah, I see why you’re having problem then =p

LegACy.1296:

Tahlie.4259:

I don’t like guilds, and they don’t like me. I play like a super neckbeard hardcore nerd, but I have the mindset of a casual — in other words, I play a lot and I play well, but I don’t treat the game like a job, and just have fun with it. So, I have to either go with a hardcore guild that can keep up with me but sucks all the fun out of the game, or join a casual guild that drives me crazy with their incompetence. Both of those just wouldn’t work for me.

Have you actually even tried a GW2 raiding guild? My current (and the previous one too, actually) raiding guild is pretty relaxed, there isn’t even any set schedule for raiding, just people simply asking in guild chat “anyone want to do first wing?”. And they usually got answer quick if it’s monday or tuesday. Hell, some group in the guild don’t even mind taking people with no kill experience.

In my >10 years of playing WoW, I never had a guild, but I did all the raid content when it was new and fresh. I even pugged heroic stuff and did fine, not just LFR. When people can function in a raid, and know what to do (or are capable of learning), you clear things without a guild. To act like a guild is a requirement for raiding is just silly.

If they’re so afraid of people getting loot, just make all ascended drops in the raid soulbound, and magnetite shards per character. Boom. Now you have a reason to constantly run with all your characters.

Uhh, I don’t understand it. If that’s the case, people will simply just run the raid multiple times with THEIR GUILD then. I mean, I will just simply raid at Monday on my Tempest, then on my DH at Tuesday, then on my Necro at Wednesday, and so on =/

Well, one reason I get kicked every now and then is because I like to play a power Scrapper

Ah, I see why you’re having problem then =p

Can you get me in this raiding guild of yours?

Just want to poke in and say nothing wrong with a power scrapper 100% raid viable ppl are simple stupid and only read what the very utmost uber optimal comps should be to avoid such issues do NOT PUG if u don’t like guilds that’s a personal issue, as most pugs in this game and others seem to have a very skewed mindframe on instanced pve content. If you are going to pug, will most likely have to play within that mindset or start your own pug raid with detailed info on what you want and needed.

Weerus.3701:

LegACy.1296:

snip

Can you get me in this raiding guild of yours?

Send me a mail in-game and I can give you the contact to the guild’s leader =)
Oh, it’s on EU.

So, are we really saying that the current party UI system is perfect, that it cannot use improvements? The solution offered to complaints that, “…got kicked from a group” is invariably, “Start you own.” Thus, a system that allows someone else to hijack the group and kick the starter is flawed.

IndigoSundown.5419:

So, are we really saying that the current party UI system is perfect, that it cannot use improvements? The solution offered to complaints that, “…got kicked from a group” is invariably, “Start you own.” Thus, a system that allows someone else to hijack the group and kick the starter is flawed.

Not necessarily, the thing is, getting a group start is not that big of a feat (bit tedious maybe but no nobel prize worthy accomplishment). The fact that many people are to lazy to do it is a problem, agreed.

On the other hand, if you make a group you are inherently in a position where most joiners would listen to you since as mentioned most players are lazy. If the group now decides to go a different direction this can have multiple reasons:

- some “know it alls” joined and disagree with your decision as group leader (probably the most common cause). Still means the rest of the group has to agree with them for the majority vote
- you as a group leader are not assertive enough or incapable to keep the groups trust in your ability to actually pull this off (many different reasons starting with friendlyness, to communication to general vibe communicated)
- the mix of players in the group does not fit. (fact of life: some people can’t play with each other)

Now I’m not saying the current party UI is perfect or could not use some beefing up, I just don’t think that the UI, which works well enough to complete the objectives set, is the issue in most of these cases. It’s merely the tool used to resolve the aformentioned problems, not their cause.

Again, I don’t think making a more riggid UI system will solve them since:

- if the majority of the group disagrees with the current leader, a new leader will get chosen and the rest of the group will reform if need be
- might help a less assertive/charismatic leader keep their position early on but by the time the second wipe happens people will be leaving
- jerks will be jerks and if certain people can’t work together a more riggid group system will not fix this

To the actual situation described by the TC:
Someone with a tag taking over the group lead since the original leader has no commander tag. → That should get fixed.

so the reasons you are getting kicked as a power scrapper is because it isnt “the highest dps”… it doesnt have the utility of lava font… its perfectly viable, but it requires putting in effort to play, unlike other dps classes where you can mostly camp on 1 weapon set and put out the biggest dps… the reasons go on and on, but in the end, pugs just arent looking for power scrapper. guilds prolly wont care.

unfortunately, to solve your problem you will prolly need to do 1 of several things:

1. reroll up any of several other classes that people actively search for from pugs.
2. buy a tag.
3. instill confidence in you in your group members to keep them from kicking you and fight against takeovers.
4. join a nonrep raiding list guild / search for a guild that fills your needs.

1 and 2 are about an order of magnitude easier than 3. apparently you are adamant that 4 is impossible.

your playstyle is possible, because i share many of your views on playing and i have 22 insights that say it can be done. but youre going to have to change your mind about something or other or you will continue to block yourself.

LegACy.1296:

Weerus.3701:

LegACy.1296:

snip

Can you get me in this raiding guild of yours?

Send me a mail in-game and I can give you the contact to the guild’s leader =)
Oh, it’s on EU.

I will contact you in-game when I get home from work I’m also EU (Gandara).

And to reply to where this thread is going. Despite everything that you guys are arguing about, the one that started the party should be party leader and thus only one who can start the kick vote or at least members should not be allowed to vote kick on him. Face it, if something is wrong with leader which usually is not, players just form a new party, but looking from another perspective, it is very low of players to steal the party from the one that spend his time gathering members.

Good luck to everyone, it’s just a game, and some people are kittens, don’t take it personally. Just remember to have fun

Tahlie.4259:

First, just get a real party system in place for them, not this squad crap. Several times now, I’ve set up a pug, only for someone to tag up, take control, and kick me to make room for their friends, or because they don’t like the class I play, or they just don’t like me, or something. I shouldn’t have to go out and spend days in utter boredom farming 300g just to have control of my group.

And, speaking of pugs, they basically don’t exist. Wanna know why? It’s because you decided to make lockouts per account, instead of per character. All that does is make raiding a guild-exclusive thing, and make pugging basically impossible. Anyone who clears the raid with their guild isn’t goinna want to pug and run it again like most other MMOs, since the lockout is for their whole account.

So, please, if you want to include raiding in your game, at least do it right. Make the lockouts per character (or give me a kitten ed good reason why it’s per account), and make a real party system that doesn’t rely on the archaic commander squad system.

I personally know a lot of people who pug wings after they complete them, they don’t get anything out of it other than fun and comedy. Also raids were never designed to be pugged in the first place, it’s inevitable that they can be but raids require organisation and communication that a lot of people just don’t grasp when they form a raid group.