Guild Wars 2

Guys, please don’t argue, especially for matters irrelevant to the thread.

Just wanted to chime in and say that linecasting certainly didnt get banned because youd have to roll the RNG to linecast every boss perfectly. If youd have linecasted when it was a thing you wouldve noticed pretty quickly that in a 5-man it wasnt faster then to do the boss normally. There were only a handful of encounters that were quicker by linecasting. It just got banned for Solo/Duo records due to it being cheesy and the rule just carried over to 5-man since no one really cared.

Axelwarrior.9084:

Guys, please don’t argue, especially for matters irrelevant to the thread.

It does matter in the end.
Lines must be drawn to judge what’s “bad design”, what’s an “exploit” and what is “working as intended”.

Here’s the problem, though: As far as dungeons go, it’s pretty much anarchy right now in that regard, because anet doesn’t (seem to) give clear answers anymore, so everyone comes up with their own rules and different interpretations of the word “exploit”.

For example, i draw the line, when something’s clearly glitching, like noclips and the use of third-party-tools (technically, memory hacks) to get access to informations, someone normally wouldn’t have, like exact DPS and enemies current HP/max HP.

Only once, we’ve gotten that issue out of the way, you can get a clear answer to your initial question.
I have the feeling, that this won’t be straightened out anytime soon, though.

wauwi.9162:

Axelwarrior.9084:

Guys, please don’t argue, especially for matters irrelevant to the thread.

It does matter in the end.
Lines must be drawn to judge what’s “bad design”, what’s an “exploit” and what is “working as intended”.

Here’s the problem, though: As far as dungeons go, it’s pretty much anarchy right now in that regard, because anet doesn’t (seem to) give clear answers anymore, so everyone comes up with their own rules and different interpretations of the word “exploit”.

For example, i draw the line, when something’s clearly glitching, like noclips and the use of third-party-tools (technically, memory hacks) to get access to informations, someone normally wouldn’t have, like exact DPS and enemies current HP/max HP.

Only once, we’ve gotten that issue out of the way, you can get a clear answer to your initial question.
I have the feeling, that this won’t be straightened out anytime soon, though.

But you’re discussing the matter in regard of speedclears and on a specific “tactic”.
My questions were more general.

Would WoR-ing Lupi to death be categorized as bad design to me? I can’t imagine someone at Anet thought of, “Oh hey, I hope no one realizes that someone can just push Lupi up against a wall and have him self nuke himself”.

Is it an exploit? Not really. WoR is doing its job at reflecting while the trait is allowing for ground targetting. Should they have made the wall untargetable? That’s a whole new thread that needs to be started.

Is it frowned upon the community? Well, I guess that depends the community. Personally, I find it takes little skill to complete the boss this way and definitely takes the fun out of the “15th time’s the charm!” of having to fight Lupi. For speed running that’s more acceptable as the fun is in trying to see how fast you can get in and get out. Competitive Speed running? That’s up to the community to decide what’s allowed and what’s not.

WoR on wall is to me no better than skipping Lupi altogether is, and it’s the vast majority of the time that the main reason people do it is because they don’t know how to do it without it.

I’ve actually asked pugs before and they aren’t even aware of the fact that you can skip phase 3 in coordinated groups without doing it. I also have seen every single time when I spam immobilizes + my burst in phase 1, no one knows how to dodge his attacks and often times don’t even realize WoR works when it’s on the ground lmfao.

The tl;dr is, it’s a tactic for bad players. There are such thing as good players that pug, and they should not be forced to subject themselves to something so pathetic. It’s the equivalent to me as pugs safespotting ancient ooze and max range 1111ing it… it’s just facedesk.

And yes, you can make your own LFGs specifying what you want but you cannot force others to obey your wishes. The vast majority of pugs clearly don’t respect LFG ads / don’t read, so it’s never a guarantee you get what you want… especially since you can’t own the instance anymore or kick without 2 others voting with you.

Axelwarrior.9084:

wauwi.9162:

Axelwarrior.9084:

Guys, please don’t argue, especially for matters irrelevant to the thread.

It does matter in the end.
Lines must be drawn to judge what’s “bad design”, what’s an “exploit” and what is “working as intended”.

Here’s the problem, though: As far as dungeons go, it’s pretty much anarchy right now in that regard, because anet doesn’t (seem to) give clear answers anymore, so everyone comes up with their own rules and different interpretations of the word “exploit”.

For example, i draw the line, when something’s clearly glitching, like noclips and the use of third-party-tools (technically, memory hacks) to get access to informations, someone normally wouldn’t have, like exact DPS and enemies current HP/max HP.

Only once, we’ve gotten that issue out of the way, you can get a clear answer to your initial question.
I have the feeling, that this won’t be straightened out anytime soon, though.

But you’re discussing the matter in regard of speedclears and on a specific “tactic”.
My questions were more general.

Once you start a forum thread you don’t get to control where the conversation flows to after you hit ‘submit.’

Purple Miku.7032:

So your problem with it is that it’s too easy to do? But isn’t every dungeon tactic about trivializing mechanics and 100-to-0-ing enemies as fast as possible? Not being condescending, I’m not saying it’s a bad thing. But why is this particular tactic worse?

NikeEU.7690:

Once you start a forum thread you don’t get to control where the conversation flows to after you hit ‘submit.’

I obviously don’t have the power to stop you from derailing my thread, but that doesn’t make it right for you to do it.

Right/Wrong, all subjective matters, just like the rules

And, yeah, thanks Nike for the clarification. From your earlier posts I was under the impression you were saying that the line casting itself wouldn’t hit consistently. Now I see what you’re saying in that there are multiple elements that have either very small margins of error or that may just be wonkiness with the game (like a boss just taking a step out of the spot for no apparent reason). I can understand that.

A scenario such that say you always line cast on a certain spot. But you misplace your temporal curtain a tiny bit to the left, and someone places their line casting slightly to the right, and together results in a missed target and dungeon reset. Still the players fault, but far too big of an impact for small mistakes.

Or a scenario where the boss is drunk and just goes “ehh huh?” and stumbles forward causing you to miss completely on perfectly placed line casts. This would be RNG I guess, but nto really, just a kittenty situation as I don’t think there is a RNG roll for NPCs to be drunk.

Axelwarrior.9084:

Purple Miku.7032:

So your problem with it is that it’s too easy to do? But isn’t every dungeon tactic about trivializing mechanics and 100-to-0-ing enemies as fast as possible? Not being condescending, I’m not saying it’s a bad thing. But why is this particular tactic worse?

No, this isn’t fast as possible. This is literally only chosen because it’s a free pass to skip Lupi. That’s all.

You don’t have to understand a single thing about this boss other than to place WoR on the wall after he’s gone invulnerable and he dies instantly from 75% hp. This allows bad players to get past a boss they otherwise couldn’t do, because they are not willing to learn how to fight him. It is intended to be able to reflect the projectiles, but not intended to be able to reflect every single one of them.

This is by definition inept way of getting past this boss/

in·ept
i?nept/Submit
adjective
having or showing no skill; clumsy.

It is not only easy, but it is just as legit as it was to 1-shot bosses in FotM with mimic was back before that was patched.

As Miku said, you take the time to push him to the wall, that’s likely going to take close to as much time as just top burns.

If you do say an initial burst rotation on Lupi dropping him into phase2, then line up for a second burst with max vuln and a feedback or properly grouped up WoR you can burst to 0 as well. IIRC it’s about 15s i think someone said, watch any current Arah record run?

So it’s not the ideal tactic, it’s only ideal if you can’t do it the better way, and well many that use it can’t do it at all.

IMO, it’s not an exploit and I’m fine with people using it. Kudos to whoever came up with it. On the other hand, I feel the fight was well tweaked in terms of fun, length, and challenge so I never used it myself — pre-Lupine blast crazyness (I don’t run Arah anymore).

Is it bad design? I’d say like an oversight. Bad design would be Lupi’s current autoattack, or Alphard’s inexplicable condi duration reduction.

Should Anet fix it? Ideally yes. But realistically, I fear their cure will be worse than the disease, so no.

I can only say that when devs designed lupi they didnt check how every possible skill works on him. Personally, I dont see it as exploit because you dont do anything on purpose to prevent him from using some skills( you just put wall once and then the game does everything itself).
Ps. another reason is that you cant oneshot him as cleric guard…

Axelwarrior.9084:

NikeEU.7690:

Once you start a forum thread you don’t get to control where the conversation flows to after you hit ‘submit.’

I obviously don’t have the power to stop you from derailing my thread, but that doesn’t make it right for you to do it.

When humans communicate with each other informally, there is no set agenda. Conversation topics move and progress.

Since the discussion in this thread has derailed and is no longer constructive this thread is now closed.