Guild Wars 2

Kinda curious who has highest dps in game and who the lower one

1. Quickness
2. Alacrity
3. Banners
4. Grace of the Land and Frost Spirit and Spotter
5. Assassins Presence

What Nike said. Personal damage doesn’t really matter much, what the class brings for team support matters much much more.

It’s also highly dependent on the type of mob you’re hitting. For example, Staff tempest has incredibly high dps against Gorseval because his hitbox is so big that most of your meteors from meteor shower will hit and he doesn’t move out of your fields a lot. It’s lower on Vale Guardian because he moves more and has a smaller hitbox. Some classes bring high single-target dps while others are much better in aoe situations. Etc. etc. etc….

And then there’s also the case of Vacuum situations vs Classes in particular team comps. More Etc.

So yeah, there’s not really a convenient cheat sheet of “Who’s better than who”. Some classes are a bit more flexible and versatile so they may see more play time than others, but there’s not a End All Be All King or loser.

that’s a refreshing change.

NikeEU.7690:

1. Quickness
2. Alacrity
3. Banners
4. Grace of the Land and Frost Spirit and Spotter
5. Assassins Presence

does that basically mean mesmer should be the #1 priority on any team comps right now?

kim possible.9406:

does that basically mean mesmer should be the #1 priority on any team comps right now?

Chronomancer is pretty much the bee’s knees right now.

I’m watching the nerfhammer of doom coming down in slow motion

Really? Because mesmers were at or near the top before. Remember PU?

Oh yeah, I remember the extremely powerful pu mesmer in dungeons for epic tanking… Gee, that build was op. Or not.
It’s ok, first they gonna nerf droods. Again.

Rising Dusk.2408:

kim possible.9406:

does that basically mean mesmer should be the #1 priority on any team comps right now?

Chronomancer is pretty much the bee’s knees right now.

I had to google what that means.
“Definition of BEE’S KNEES. : a highly admired person or thing : cat’s meow.”
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bee%27s%20knees

It seems Chronomancers are currently absolutely irreplaceable. Like cat’s meow!

Having one chrono is a fairly high priority for most groups, but almost no one wants to take more than one. They provide a lot of great group buffs, but their personal damage is not as high as other classes. And clearly bosses have been downed without chronos in the party, so they’re certainly not required. XD

a question about condi dps class, i rly enjoy and currently run an viper/sinister zerk runes engi in raids, but i read so much about viper reaper (ofc i know about epidemic on gorse if u run 2) but in general terms, who would dish out more dps in raid/fractal scenarios? idc about perfect-paper-ratings but more about what you guys feel in real encounters…

would yet another ascendant viper set for a different weightclass be worth it or not? does the reaper rotation get boring after some time? i mean on engi you dont even have time to do anything else then rotating cooldowns like crazy through all sets..

Full disclosure: I don’t play either class. I have played with both however.

Condi engi has higher dps than condi reaper. Both classes are still fully viable, and condi reaper brings epidemic which condi engi does not. Epidemic does an amazing job at clearing adds which can make the fight easier on your group. It is not necessary to clear the adds with epidemic though so that’s honestly up to your group. Engi can bring slick shoes for Gorseval which is amazing for breaking his bar. It’s not necesary to break his bar with slick shoes though so that’s honestly up to your group. (See what I did there XD)

It all comes down to personal/group preference really. (Condi engi is definitely better for VG though the fight is so easy, it pretty much doesn’t matter.) If you’re pugging, I think it’d be easier to find a group with condi engi.

softblackcarbon.1537:

Condi engi is definitely better for VG though the fight is so easy, it pretty much doesn’t matter.

My experience is condi engie is actually fairly bad in that fight since you spend a lot of time sitting in a green circle where you cant use blow torch or fire bomb on cool down which kills your DPS. Necro’s skills are all ranged and you lose 0 of your potential DPS while you’re far from the boss. I don’t have a DPS meter parse for necro vs engie in that fight but I definitely don’t agree that engie is a blow out winner.

Condi engi is considered the better class for VG because it is much better at running green circles than the other condi builds. Engis provide several knockbacks and ccs that reapers are missing, as well as water fields and blast finishers for aoe healing, both of which reapers lack reliably. Their condis still tick while they are running circles (though they do lose dps when they leave the boss, that is true), but the loss of dps is largely irrelevant in actually killing the boss as the timer is so lax. You’re much better off bringing the survivability and ease of circle running, than slightly more consistent dps with reapers from range and the number one thing that causes wipes is people missing/going down in green circles, rather than lack of dps. Lack of dps usually stems from other issues and not from losing out on dps when people run circles. Prioritizing the circle team’s survivability over slightly higher dps will almost always lead to more success in the fight.

tl;dr – engis are better because of the utility they provide, rather than their dps. They’re not the only class that can be successful though.

NikeEU.7690:

My experience is condi engie is actually fairly bad in that fight since you spend a lot of time sitting in a green circle where you cant use blow torch or fire bomb on cool down which kills your DPS. Necro’s skills are all ranged and you lose 0 of your potential DPS while you’re far from the boss. I don’t have a DPS meter parse for necro vs engie in that fight but I definitely don’t agree that engie is a blow out winner.

I think they’re both very good for different reasons. Necromancer can definitely sustain higher ranged DPS numbers while in the green circle group, but offers little in the way of valuable CC to keep seekers away from the green circle. Engineer, however, brings Air Blast, Big Ol’ Bomb, and Glue Shot which are incredible in that role.

softblackcarbon.1537:

Condi engi is considered the better class for VG because it is much better at running green circles than the other condi builds.

I consider condi warrior to be light-years better than condi engie at all aspects of VG, especially green circle duty. Unfortunately, you’re right, “common knowledge” does consider condi engie to be better there which is pretty unfortunate for the sake of the community improving.

Rising Dusk.2408:

I think they’re both very good for different reasons. Necromancer can definitely sustain higher ranged DPS numbers while in the green circle group, but offers little in the way of valuable CC to keep seekers away from the green circle. Engineer, however, brings Air Blast, Big Ol’ Bomb, and Glue Shot which are incredible in that role.

Necro can pretty much solo most of the breakbars in the fight though. With Golem + Shroud 5. Something to keep in mind.

softblackcarbon.1537:

tl;dr – engis are better because of the utility they provide, rather than their dps. They’re not the only class that can be successful though.

Transfusion is godly for the VG fight. Shroud 4 in a water field if people are low on the green circle can almost instantly top everyone off. Also people going down out of position is a huge problem on that fight and Transfusion helps get them back into the group so they can be revived quickly.

Pandabro.8743:

Necro can pretty much solo most of the breakbars in the fight though. With Golem + Shroud 5. Something to keep in mind.

Totally! They’re a great asset. The trick is that their CC’s aren’t as effective against seekers so you have to make up for that with other members of the green circle group.

Also, I want to voice my agreement that Transfusion is really incredible in that fight.

softblackcarbon.1537:

Condi engi is considered the better class for VG because it is much better at running green circles than the other condi builds. Engis provide several knockbacks and ccs that reapers are missing, as well as water fields and blast finishers for aoe healing, both of which reapers lack reliably. Their condis still tick while they are running circles (though they do lose dps when they leave the boss, that is true), but the loss of dps is largely irrelevant in actually killing the boss as the timer is so lax. You’re much better off bringing the survivability and ease of circle running, than slightly more consistent dps with reapers from range and the number one thing that causes wipes is people missing/going down in green circles, rather than lack of dps. Lack of dps usually stems from other issues and not from losing out on dps when people run circles. Prioritizing the circle team’s survivability over slightly higher dps will almost always lead to more success in the fight.

tl;dr – engis are better because of the utility they provide, rather than their dps. They’re not the only class that can be successful though.

You may not play condi reaper so :
The condi nec can stay far from the boss and don’t drop DPS (you only go on the boss for KS4 and mushroom in P1)
You use Suffer! to kite red orbs
You use KS3 to CC red orbs when you are in green circle
You can use KS4 on green circle for heal or rally an ally on you

The survability of a necro is HUGE since you can go on KS on demand, it absobs damage if needed.

For the CC phase I always take a WH in my second set for the daze in addition to golem charge and KS5.

If you team have no trouble with the CC you can take the lich and your DPS will be FAR FAR HIGHER than engi.

In conclusion, it’s okay to have an engi for the knockback (other class can do this) but you can’t say “engi is the best for VG”

maxinox.6283:

softblackcarbon.1537:

Condi engi is considered the better class for VG because it is much better at running green circles than the other condi builds. Engis provide several knockbacks and ccs that reapers are missing, as well as water fields and blast finishers for aoe healing, both of which reapers lack reliably. Their condis still tick while they are running circles (though they do lose dps when they leave the boss, that is true), but the loss of dps is largely irrelevant in actually killing the boss as the timer is so lax. You’re much better off bringing the survivability and ease of circle running, than slightly more consistent dps with reapers from range and the number one thing that causes wipes is people missing/going down in green circles, rather than lack of dps. Lack of dps usually stems from other issues and not from losing out on dps when people run circles. Prioritizing the circle team’s survivability over slightly higher dps will almost always lead to more success in the fight.

tl;dr – engis are better because of the utility they provide, rather than their dps. They’re not the only class that can be successful though.

You may not play condi reaper so :
The condi nec can stay far from the boss and don’t drop DPS (you only go on the boss for KS4 and mushroom in P1)
You use Suffer! to kite red orbs
You use KS3 to CC red orbs when you are in green circle
You can use KS4 on green circle for heal or rally an ally on you

The survability of a necro is HUGE since you can go on KS on demand, it absobs damage if needed.

For the CC phase I always take a WH in my second set for the daze in addition to golem charge and KS5.

If you team have no trouble with the CC you can take the lich and your DPS will be FAR FAR HIGHER than engi.

In conclusion, it’s okay to have an engi for the knockback (other class can do this) but you can’t say “engi is the best for VG”

I very doudt that reaper with Lich have far far higher dps than engie. Do you have numbers or video to back up that claim?

Not saying it’s a bad dps. I think that condi reaper is very good. IMO both engie and reaper are on par in that situation, or at least very close. Keep in mind that when you say that :

‘’The condi nec can stay far from the boss and don’t drop DPS (you only go on the boss for KS4 and mushroom in P1)’’

The same can be said for the engineer. They have the same range of 900 so they can both stay relatively far from the boss and drop a bit of dps. The engineer only go on the boss for Bomb 2 and 3 and mushroom in P1.

I’m at work so I can’t give you my screens but :
After 30 sec of fight :
12k bleed
5k poison (spike to 8k-9 sometimes 10k with gol)
1k4 or more chill
not sure : 1k5 torment, more if the VG move a bit

The 12k are constant if you stick the druid and he spams GoL. I know I can go to 13k but i need ascended jewel viper.

I know engie can do huge burn damage and bleed but they are not constant and he has to follow his awfull rotation.
You forget blow torch too ! :p

For the clock rotation, the Necro has the avantage to don’t do projectile finisher (red orbs can’t body block my target) it’s double edged sword because if there are fire field I can’t do projectiles finishers and add more dps

Thaddeus.4891:

maxinox.6283:

softblackcarbon.1537:

Condi engi is considered the better class for VG because it is much better at running green circles than the other condi builds. Engis provide several knockbacks and ccs that reapers are missing, as well as water fields and blast finishers for aoe healing, both of which reapers lack reliably. Their condis still tick while they are running circles (though they do lose dps when they leave the boss, that is true), but the loss of dps is largely irrelevant in actually killing the boss as the timer is so lax. You’re much better off bringing the survivability and ease of circle running, than slightly more consistent dps with reapers from range and the number one thing that causes wipes is people missing/going down in green circles, rather than lack of dps. Lack of dps usually stems from other issues and not from losing out on dps when people run circles. Prioritizing the circle team’s survivability over slightly higher dps will almost always lead to more success in the fight.

tl;dr – engis are better because of the utility they provide, rather than their dps. They’re not the only class that can be successful though.

You may not play condi reaper so :
The condi nec can stay far from the boss and don’t drop DPS (you only go on the boss for KS4 and mushroom in P1)
You use Suffer! to kite red orbs
You use KS3 to CC red orbs when you are in green circle
You can use KS4 on green circle for heal or rally an ally on you

The survability of a necro is HUGE since you can go on KS on demand, it absobs damage if needed.

For the CC phase I always take a WH in my second set for the daze in addition to golem charge and KS5.

If you team have no trouble with the CC you can take the lich and your DPS will be FAR FAR HIGHER than engi.

In conclusion, it’s okay to have an engi for the knockback (other class can do this) but you can’t say “engi is the best for VG”

I very doudt that reaper with Lich have far far higher dps than engie. Do you have numbers or video to back up that claim?

Not saying it’s a bad dps. I think that condi reaper is very good. IMO both engie and reaper are on par in that situation, or at least very close. Keep in mind that when you say that :

‘’The condi nec can stay far from the boss and don’t drop DPS (you only go on the boss for KS4 and mushroom in P1)’’

The same can be said for the engineer. They have the same range of 900 so they can both stay relatively far from the boss and drop a bit of dps. The engineer only go on the boss for Bomb 2 and 3 and mushroom in P1.

Comparing an engi to necro on lightning orb duty probably has a lot to do with how many orbs end up over 900 range.

Engis are pretty reliant on blowtorch and bomb kit for a lot of their damage and both of those are generally not available when you’re on lightning duty. If they pop out at the right time, it may not be a big deal (i.e. if a circle comes up as soon as you’ve just put these on cd), but that will rarely happen. Even landing napalm can be tough with distant circles, but considering the long cd of this, it’s not nearly as much of an issue.

Engis can keep up some dps at 900+ range with mortar kit, but it’s significantly less than even grenade spam.

Chillomancer reapers can easily maintain their full dps rotation at range, but 900+ range is a dead stop to dps.

Which is more of an issue? From my experience, I’d say that engi is affected more by lightning orbs.

As for numerical proof, I haven’t seen actual charts or spreadsheets on this (and that would be tough considering the many factors), but I’ll quote DEKeyz from DnT on this since she’s pretty well known for diving into this stuff. When asked how reaper compares to engi, she said:

on a single target in a perfect world, this would probably rank 5-15% lower. However, epidemic can drastically boost its DPS vs groups well past those two classes. Also, necro rotations are so much easier than engi rotations, so the real world difference would be less or a necro may even pull ahead?

Source: comments section of – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRDyLvOiawc

Now, that wasn’t referring to the lightning orb role, but it’s still pretty applicable.

Honestly, I’d say that condi warrior is really king of the lightning orb role. It does require some melee for a max dps rotation, but it’s doesn’t lose much of this is delayed and the bulk of the rotation is almost as effective at 1200 range as it is at melee since it’s mostly scorched earth spam.

However, engi, reaper, and warrior are all pretty ideal for that role and I don’t see any reason for a group to exclude any of these if they need someone to fill a condi role that handles lightning circles.

maxinox.6283:

I’m at work so I can’t give you my screens but :
After 30 sec of fight :
12k bleed
5k poison (spike to 8k-9 sometimes 10k with gol)
1k4 or more chill
not sure : 1k5 torment, more if the VG move a bit

The 12k are constant if you stick the druid and he spams GoL. I know I can go to 13k but i need ascended jewel viper.

I know engie can do huge burn damage and bleed but they are not constant and he has to follow his awfull rotation.
You forget blow torch too ! :p

For the clock rotation, the Necro has the avantage to don’t do projectile finisher (red orbs can’t body block my target) it’s double edged sword because if there are fire field I can’t do projectiles finishers and add more dps

You use rapid or dire gear?

Junkpile.7439:

maxinox.6283:

I’m at work so I can’t give you my screens but :
After 30 sec of fight :
12k bleed
5k poison (spike to 8k-9 sometimes 10k with gol)
1k4 or more chill
not sure : 1k5 torment, more if the VG move a bit

The 12k are constant if you stick the druid and he spams GoL. I know I can go to 13k but i need ascended jewel viper.

I know engie can do huge burn damage and bleed but they are not constant and he has to follow his awfull rotation.
You forget blow torch too ! :p

For the clock rotation, the Necro has the avantage to don’t do projectile finisher (red orbs can’t body block my target) it’s double edged sword because if there are fire field I can’t do projectiles finishers and add more dps

You use rapid or dire gear?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNAr4dnM0AN3gV3AmbCc4gliBbaFMDiBx9wiYSMKAMASAA-TBSAQBRU9HKcQAwmyvAqXQaPAAGu/AAOBAtRJIpAWUZF-e

This (switch epidemic for Suffer! for VG)

maxinox.6283:

Junkpile.7439:

maxinox.6283:

I’m at work so I can’t give you my screens but :
After 30 sec of fight :
12k bleed
5k poison (spike to 8k-9 sometimes 10k with gol)
1k4 or more chill
not sure : 1k5 torment, more if the VG move a bit

The 12k are constant if you stick the druid and he spams GoL. I know I can go to 13k but i need ascended jewel viper.

I know engie can do huge burn damage and bleed but they are not constant and he has to follow his awfull rotation.
You forget blow torch too ! :p

For the clock rotation, the Necro has the avantage to don’t do projectile finisher (red orbs can’t body block my target) it’s double edged sword because if there are fire field I can’t do projectiles finishers and add more dps

You use rapid or dire gear?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNAr4djM0QzNWdDe3A7NWKGspVwMIGE3DLiJxoAwAIBA-TBSAQBRU9HKcQAwmyvAqXQaPAAGu/AAOBAtRJIpAWUZF-e

This.

Dire would be better. More toughness and vitality.

Nope, this is a DPS build not a tank build or whatever. I need viper for condi duration and sinister for damage when condi duration caped.

Every condi DPS should be in sinister or viper or a mix. We talk about Raid where some boss have DPS check.

Omg the mayhem Junkpile is doing these days on the forum lol.

IMO the difference in dps between engineer and necro is not calculable when on circle duty. It really depend on luck and skill. For exemple. I don’t think I miss much blowtorch anymore and maybe miss between 2/3 and 1/2 of my bombs because I always run to the boss after a circle. It also depend on the placement of seekers. If you have to push or immobilize more seekers then you dps will suffer.

Personnally, I prefer my engineer because of the 2 pushback and 2 immo for the seekers and the additional group healing the turret bring. But both are solid choice that work well. The engineer will bring more quality of life for the seekers and healing, while the necro will be more focused on the boss while doing circle.

I’m curious. Does 2 Viper Reaper can take care of the Red Guardian by themselves like 2 engineer can? This doesn’t change a thing because 3 or 2 condi on Red Guardian doesn’t really change the total speed of the 2nd and 4th phase. I’m just curious.

Thaddeus.4891:

Omg the mayhem Junkpile is doing these days on the forum lol.

IMO the difference in dps between engineer and necro is not calculable when on circle duty. It really depend on luck and skill. For exemple. I don’t think I miss much blowtorch anymore and maybe miss between 2/3 and 1/2 of my bombs because I always run to the boss after a circle. It also depend on the placement of seekers. If you have to push or immobilize more seekers then you dps will suffer.

Personnally, I prefer my engineer because of the 2 pushback and 2 immo for the seekers and the additional group healing the turret bring. But both are solid choice that work well. The engineer will bring more quality of life for the seekers and healing, while the necro will be more focused on the boss while doing circle.

I’m curious. Does 2 Viper Reaper can take care of the Red Guardian by themselves like 2 engineer can? This doesn’t change a thing because 3 or 2 condi on Red Guardian doesn’t really change the total speed of the 2nd and 4th phase. I’m just curious.

This. I don’t think reapers are at all bad for VG. I’m simply saying that I think higher QOL for your circle group is much more important than the slightly higher ranged dps your reapers can provide. It’s true that reapers bring some cc, but they lack the knockbacks and burst healing that the engis can provide. The easier of a time your circle group has on the fight, the easier the fight is in general as the other roles really aren’t that hard and DPS shouldn’t be at all an issue. Can you beat it with 2-3 condi reapers instead of engis? Of course. Should a brand new group that’s trying to make getting a kill as easy as possible for themselves bring 3 condi engis? I think so. That’s all I’m saying.

softblackcarbon.1537:

Can you beat it with 2-3 condi reapers instead of engis? Of course. Should a brand new group that’s trying to make getting a kill as easy as possible for themselves bring 3 condi engis? I think so. That’s all I’m saying.

I’d argue that unless the Condi engineers have near perfect rotations then Reaper’s will be a better choice. This is coming from watching a lot of people play Condi engineer and seeing the huge difference a good Condi engineer can be in damage. Average ones will probably do less damage than an average Reaper simply because the complexity of the rotation.

People need to realize that rotation complexity factors into actual damage. Few people can actually pull off a engineer’s rotation properly and add in boss mechanics and that percentage dips even lower.

NikeEU.7690:

1. Quickness
2. Alacrity
3. Banners
4. Grace of the Land and Frost Spirit and Spotter
5. Assassins Presence

Yep. High team damage in this game has always meant boosting the team’s ability to damage. It’s just that damage is a wee bit more important in raids than elsewhere in PvE.

Pandabro.8743:

softblackcarbon.1537:

Can you beat it with 2-3 condi reapers instead of engis? Of course. Should a brand new group that’s trying to make getting a kill as easy as possible for themselves bring 3 condi engis? I think so. That’s all I’m saying.

People need to realize that rotation complexity factors into actual damage. Few people can actually pull off a engineer’s rotation properly and add in boss mechanics and that percentage dips even lower.

this

softblackcarbon.1537:

Condi engi is considered the better class for VG because it is much better at running green circles than the other condi builds. Engis provide several knockbacks and ccs that reapers are missing, as well as water fields and blast finishers for aoe healing, both of which reapers lack reliably. Their condis still tick while they are running circles (though they do lose dps when they leave the boss, that is true), but the loss of dps is largely irrelevant in actually killing the boss as the timer is so lax. You’re much better off bringing the survivability and ease of circle running, than slightly more consistent dps with reapers from range and the number one thing that causes wipes is people missing/going down in green circles, rather than lack of dps. Lack of dps usually stems from other issues and not from losing out on dps when people run circles. Prioritizing the circle team’s survivability over slightly higher dps will almost always lead to more success in the fight.

tl;dr – engis are better because of the utility they provide, rather than their dps. They’re not the only class that can be successful though.

Timed “Suffer!” shout with bonus condi duration will permachill Seekers that are coming close for eternity if needed (you probably use this shout anyway and using it for seekers won’t screw up rotations – you still have dagger transfer). If they’re too close, you can fear them off. If your group needs healing at VG you can use your Soul Spiral which, because you’re probably using Blood Magic and Transfusion for that fight, heals for much, much, much more than Healing Turret would ever do.

Death’s Charge will allow you to get to circles no worse, if not better, than engineer. You’re also naturally more resistant to damage. While it is true that Slick Shoes are broken on breakbars, aren’t condi engineers giving up one kit that is part of their DPS rotation? Reaper gives up nothing for Golem with Charge and RS #5 / more soft CC.

All that assuming group is really skilled, as are Engineers with their rotations. What if “tank” screws up a bit and moves boss out of your AoE? What if someone gets down on top of seeker or on lit up floor – Reaper is probably capped on Shroud anyway and can get such hard rezz off without dying and I know that because that’s exactly what I’ve been doing. Doubt if Condi Engineer or Berserker can do the same.

There’s more to Reaper and his utility than you know, it’s just that community still lives by old stereotypes.

I’m curious. Does 2 Viper Reaper can take care of the Red Guardian by themselves like 2 engineer can? This doesn’t change a thing because 3 or 2 condi on Red Guardian doesn’t really change the total speed of the 2nd and 4th phase. I’m just curious.

With more than 1 Reaper on target, damage may slightly drop due to Chill stacking. We don’t run more than 1 Reaper because of that, but I’m sure it’s possible. I’ve been able to 2-man Red Guardian with other Engineer as well as Condi Daredevil.

Rym.1469:

Death’s Charge will allow you to get to circles no worse, if not better, than engineer. You’re also naturally more resistant to damage. While it is true that Slick Shoes are broken on breakbars, aren’t condi engineers giving up one kit that is part of their DPS rotation? Reaper gives up nothing for Golem with Charge and RS #5 / more soft CC.

All that assuming group is really skilled, as are Engineers with their rotations. What if “tank” screws up a bit and moves boss out of your AoE? What if someone gets down on top of seeker or on lit up floor – Reaper is probably capped on Shroud anyway and can get such hard rezz off without dying and I know that because that’s exactly what I’ve been doing. Doubt if Condi Engineer or Berserker can do the same.

There’s more to Reaper and his utility than you know, it’s just that community still lives by old stereotypes.

Before anything, I’m not disputing Reaper’s usefulness or damage at all. I want to make it apparent that the engineer rotation is nowhere near as difficult as some community members make it seem, most likely coming from the metabattle build. In fact, you probably still have close to maximum damage potential from just spamming the hard-hitting skills on cool-down. Also, grenade kit’s damage is underrated.

Also, condi-engineer’s can also run scrapper without impacting their own personal dps greatly and have access to function gyro, which does allow for a safe rez of anyone who does go down to seekers as well.

NikeEU.7690:

softblackcarbon.1537:

Condi engi is definitely better for VG though the fight is so easy, it pretty much doesn’t matter.

My experience is condi engie is actually fairly bad in that fight since you spend a lot of time sitting in a green circle where you cant use blow torch or fire bomb on cool down which kills your DPS. Necro’s skills are all ranged and you lose 0 of your potential DPS while you’re far from the boss. I don’t have a DPS meter parse for necro vs engie in that fight but I definitely don’t agree that engie is a blow out winner.

Glad to see you acknowledge this. Because ive tried both in raids. And so far ive seen condi reaper outperform engi in every fight. Maybe im just a terrible engi. But so far the only justification i see for an engi is slick shoes on Gorseval.

To answer the Op’s question properly and as best i can.

It really depends on the fight.

I’d argue that the f1 spamming longbow condi war is the best DPS on gorseval for example due to his large hitbox.
Where as with Vale guardian, i’d say possibly revenant, as that’s the only class i can think of that’s really wanted for raids and whose damage isn’t completely destroyed by movement.

Now in a perfect scenario, if the boss had a large hit box and was stationary 100% of the time, it’d probably be a toss up between Condi Warrior, Condi Engineer & Zerker Ele.

NikeEU.7690:

1. Quickness
2. Alacrity
3. Banners
4. Grace of the Land and Frost Spirit and Spotter
5. Assassins Presence

Forgot Glyph of Empowerment :P

Cond Engi perfect rotation is almost impossible, Pratical Cond Engi having your high damage skills on cooldown and auto-atacking with grenade kit meanwhile is really easy after getting used with the cooldowns, after lightning go near boss Grenade 2 and 3, blowtorch and napalm and go to next lightning.

I don’t know cond Necro Enough, but i believe Cond Engi has more party-utility than necro overall on seekers, Healing and etc

How cond Warriors take care of seekers management? o.o

harold.3526:

How cond Warriors take care of seekers management? o.o

Wild blow.

If you’re running both banners, take this over Shattering Blow at a very, very small dps loss.

It’s doesn’t compete with engineer’s FT Air Blast, but it’s sufficient in most groups.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Pandabro.8743:

softblackcarbon.1537:

Can you beat it with 2-3 condi reapers instead of engis? Of course. Should a brand new group that’s trying to make getting a kill as easy as possible for themselves bring 3 condi engis? I think so. That’s all I’m saying.

People need to realize that rotation complexity factors into actual damage. Few people can actually pull off a engineer’s rotation properly and add in boss mechanics and that percentage dips even lower.

this

The entire point is that dps is so irrelevant on VG that new groups should be bringing the classes that make the mechanics the easiest to succeed at. I think it was Nike who said something along the lines of “you should take away the weapons of your circle team so all they do is focus on circles” (which is obviously not to be taken literally, but to make a point). There is zero question in my mind that engi just deals with seekers and circles better than reaper. While it may be true that engis and reapers both have an easy time keeping seekers off the circles, reapers lack the knockbacks that engis bring (and fear is not nearly as useful as the seekers move so slowly) and the same burst healing with water fields/blasts. (I understand that they can heal.)

There’s also no doubt in my mind that a skilled engi will out-damage a skilled reaper on VG currently even while running circles. That’s just reality of the current class balances. Again, that’s not to say that reaper damage is too low or that you shouldn’t bring them to this fight.

tl;dr: Dps on VG is largely irrelevant (DnT is getting sub 4-min kills). New groups who are (and should be) focusing on mechanics should bring engis if they want the easiest time possible because of utility, not dps. You can be successful in this fight with basically any composition.

softblackcarbon.1537:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

Pandabro.8743:

softblackcarbon.1537:

Can you beat it with 2-3 condi reapers instead of engis? Of course. Should a brand new group that’s trying to make getting a kill as easy as possible for themselves bring 3 condi engis? I think so. That’s all I’m saying.

People need to realize that rotation complexity factors into actual damage. Few people can actually pull off a engineer’s rotation properly and add in boss mechanics and that percentage dips even lower.

this

The entire point is that dps is so irrelevant on VG that new groups should be bringing the classes that make the mechanics the easiest to succeed at. I think it was Nike who said something along the lines of “you should take away the weapons of your circle team so all they do is focus on circles” (which is obviously not to be taken literally, but to make a point). There is zero question in my mind that engi just deals with seekers and circles better than reaper. While it may be true that engis and reapers both have an easy time keeping seekers off the circles, reapers lack the knockbacks that engis bring (and fear is not nearly as useful as the seekers move so slowly) and the same burst healing with water fields/blasts. (I understand that they can heal.)

There’s also no doubt in my mind that a skilled engi will out-damage a skilled reaper on VG currently even while running circles. That’s just reality of the current class balances. Again, that’s not to say that reaper damage is too low or that you shouldn’t bring them to this fight.

tl;dr: Dps on VG is largely irrelevant (DnT is getting sub 4-min kills). New groups who are (and should be) focusing on mechanics should bring engis if they want the easiest time possible because of utility, not dps. You can be successful in this fight with basically any composition.

“There’s also no doubt in my mind that a skilled engi will out-damage a skilled reaper on VG currently even while running circles. That’s just reality of the current class balances. Again, that’s not to say that reaper damage is too low or that you shouldn’t bring them to this fight.”

I’m not convinced but /shrug

And yeah for your first few times a engineer would probably be better just because it’s better with the seekers.

NikeEU.7690:

1. Quickness
2. Alacrity
3. Banners
4. Grace of the Land and Frost Spirit and Spotter
5. Assassins Presence

So much for buffs, where’s the debuff list? I think those are as important.

kuritsutian.2987:

NikeEU.7690:

1. Quickness
2. Alacrity
3. Banners
4. Grace of the Land and Frost Spirit and Spotter
5. Assassins Presence

So much for buffs, where’s the debuff list? I think those are as important.

I’ll take the bait.

Such as?

kuritsutian.2987:

NikeEU.7690:

1. Quickness
2. Alacrity
3. Banners
4. Grace of the Land and Frost Spirit and Spotter
5. Assassins Presence

So much for buffs, where’s the debuff list? I think those are as important.

I think you mean Vuln since that’s pretty much it and it’s a non-issue when you have 10 players and 1 target.

In a 5 person party, it may be worth considering traits that apply this, but there’s so many sources of small amounts of vuln that in a 10 person group, it gets capped without anyone even thinking about it.

1. Vuln
2. Burn
3. Bleed
4. Cripple/Chill/Slow
5. Blind

Considering a rev can hit around 11-12 vuln with just auto attacks, and there is no 50% duration on vuln due to unshakable, I’m pretty sure vuln is never a problem.

CC only works on bars, but chill/slow/cripple are easy to get onto a boss and will provide good degen(though bars get broken in 1-3 seconds, not 5-10).

I guess the other “debuff” worth mentioning is boon stripping ability? But at that only comes in one flavour, there isn’t anything to compare it to.

The other thing to remember when comparing Burnzerker DPS to Engy DPS to Necro DPS is that warrior and engineer can front load a lot of burns and big bleed stacks to quickly ramp up DPS (for a condi build) while a necromancer relies on much slower stacking longer duration attacks to get comparable DPS. This isn’t a big issue on the boss in normal circumstances, but when you try to burn down the red guardian for example, that ramp time is definitely a factor.

For most strong groups, DPS isn’t really an issue at this point, but for less optimized groups, it is certainly something to consider when you’re trying to look at the big picture.