Guild Wars 2

Will we finally get more WP to compensate?

Some paths offer next to no way points, arah/coe being considered hard dungeons ( alpha/lupicus/dwayna seperating men/women from mice. ) are very high contenders for long runs when you revive.

I always considered the way points we had good, since I thought they were scarce to prevent too much zerg reviving, but removing the option to do so will make for needless running that aren’t needed anymore.

Just a few dungeons/paths have these tedious runs, would be nice to now have a few extra WPs.

Thought?

The idea is probably that other people pick you up if you die instead of having you running back.

Thought they were making it so you can’t wp if someone from team is in combat? if this is correct it will take elite groups to a whole new level and it will be the end of teaching people how to do dungeons, there will be more people getting kicked, more people being left out and more people kittening on forums. Either way this is another dumb move by anet.

Can you imagine alpha and lupi without people being able to use wp’s? i’ll never pug again if this is the case.

x per fection x.2096:

Thought they were making it so you can’t wp if someone from team is in combat? if this is correct it will take elite groups to a whole new level and it will be the end of teaching people how to do dungeons, there will be more people getting kicked, more people being left out and more people kittening on forums. Either way this is another dumb move by anet.

Can you imagine alpha and lupi without people being able to use wp’s? i’ll never pug again if this is the case.

Yeah, it seems like a step in the wrong direction.

Rhinzual.7861:

x per fection x.2096:

Thought they were making it so you can’t wp if someone from team is in combat? if this is correct it will take elite groups to a whole new level and it will be the end of teaching people how to do dungeons, there will be more people getting kicked, more people being left out and more people kittening on forums. Either way this is another dumb move by anet.

Can you imagine alpha and lupi without people being able to use wp’s? i’ll never pug again if this is the case.

Yeah, it seems like a step in the wrong direction.

People will learn or leave. It’s better that way in the long run.

What’s happening to zerg reviving?

x per fection x.2096:

Thought they were making it so you can’t wp if someone from team is in combat? if this is correct it will take elite groups to a whole new level and it will be the end of teaching people how to do dungeons, there will be more people getting kicked, more people being left out and more people kittening on forums. Either way this is another dumb move by anet.

Can you imagine alpha and lupi without people being able to use wp’s? i’ll never pug again if this is the case.

It’s a brilliant move. It also came way too late.

Even kittenters have their DM titles and any dungeon armor they want by now.

x per fection x.2096:

Can you imagine alpha and lupi without people being able to use wp’s? i’ll never pug again if this is the case.

I already avoid pugging it if at all possible, I’ll just avoid it entirely if this truly happens.

To be honest im glad they are removing wp’d i think they are making it more like fractals with the checkpoint system. it will make these dungeon what they were intended , then they can alter the difficulty to allow teams to finish these without having to die. Sure it will take some more skills but seriously zerging shouldn’t be a tactic. and everyone that gets carried will be weeded out and forced to up their style a bit. i’m not saying i’m awesome or people are bad , i’m saying collectively the dungeons will be more fun in the long run

I do worry this will make the Mesmer boss of AC Story even harder…

Rhinzual.7861:

x per fection x.2096:

Thought they were making it so you can’t wp if someone from team is in combat? if this is correct it will take elite groups to a whole new level and it will be the end of teaching people how to do dungeons, there will be more people getting kicked, more people being left out and more people kittening on forums. Either way this is another dumb move by anet.

Can you imagine alpha and lupi without people being able to use wp’s? i’ll never pug again if this is the case.

Yeah, it seems like a step in the wrong direction.

How is this bad? Right now, easy as kitten bosses aside, there’s not challenge in the fights because you can just run back if you die.

It’s not like removing WP zerging is the only change they’re making.

If your team is zerging, then you are simply not good enough. Good teams do not need zerg revives to get a boss down. The problem does not require a patch, it merely requires players to get better, which will happen naturally over time.

But there still needs to be reasonable accommodation for when things screw up. Nobody’s perfect and something like this shouldn’t make a run any more frustrating than it needs to be.

AsteriskCGY.5931:

But there still needs to be reasonable accommodation for when things screw up. Nobody’s perfect and something like this shouldn’t make a run any more frustrating than it needs to be.

Then I suggest resurrection be no longer a 20s ordeal which is guaranteed to wipe another player. I remember one game in the past had such a system, I just do not remember its name. Something with a G and Wars in the title.

They as far as I recall were modifying some of the encounters so this isn’t to brutal. Ele’s warriors and guardians can quickly revive people from range with utilities, mesmers have the not so great illusion of life. We had been using these skills on lupicus already.

I really think it’s a good change, will promote better teamwork.

Seren.6850:

They as far as I recall were modifying some of the encounters so this isn’t to brutal. Ele’s warriors and guardians can quickly revive people from range with utilities, mesmers have the not so great illusion of life. We had been using these skills on lupicus already.

I really think it’s a good change, will promote better teamwork.

hahah what
ele quick revive? It’s 4 and a half seconds. The ele may as well just walk over to you and get you up. It’s faster most of the time, and it’ll actually help keep you alive during the rez time (as the glyph doesnt heal)
I ran glyph 24/7 until they nerfed it into the ground twice without lowering the cast time on it. It’s completely useless now for anything that isnt reviving NPC’s.

I think people are misunderstanding this? You can still revive people I’m sure, you just can’t use the wp in combat so you have to wait until the team kills the mob to revive you or get out of combat so you can try to run back to them.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

I do intend on putting more waypoints into dungeons, but due to the work required for this upcoming patch we didn’t get enough time to make it happen.
I’m not a fan of “punishment running” wherein your punishment for failing is having to run a long distance back to the fight. To discourage res rushing potential we went initially with fewer waypoints. Now that we are implementing a new tech, I would like to add more to reduce the time spent running back to an objective.
We have more info coming soon to how the system will be working.

I’m hoping these changes won’t come before a pass is made on a lot of the dungeon encounters. Things like the CoF P2 Magg event CAN’T be accomplished without zerg rushing for a lot of groups.

I just hope that the people reviving won’t get ganked by a billion red circles when trying to revive

Robert Hrouda.1327:

I do intend on putting more waypoints into dungeons, but due to the work required for this upcoming patch we didn’t get enough time to make it happen.
I’m not a fan of “punishment running” wherein your punishment for failing is having to run a long distance back to the fight. To discourage res rushing potential we went initially with fewer waypoints. Now that we are implementing a new tech, I would like to add more to reduce the time spent running back to an objective.
We have more info coming soon to how the system will be working.

So you’re just punishing us this patch, promising us compensation for the increased difficulty Soon?

You should hold with the respawn changes until you got the additional Waypoints ready…

:/

Any chance for a sneak peek? Just one encounter….?

:P

Throw us a bone here!

Robert, are you the head/one of the top people on the dungeon team (it’s possible I just made up “dungeon team”)? You are one of the most communicative members of the ArenaNet staff and you seem to post with solid and satisfying information (possibly a luxury when dealing with dungeon design as opposed to WvW culling or the ephemeral concept of class balance), it would be interesting to know if you are a minion or the guy holding the whip.

Even when I disagree with things the “dungeon team” does, at least I usually understand them from your posts.

On topic though, I was really hesitant about removing res rushing. When pugging content a lot of times it’s the only way some groups are going to complete some encounters. Removing the WP option felt like it would remove the ability of many pugs to complete content (or at least make them unenjoyable wipe fests). I understand all content is possible without WP rushing, but I also understand many people can’t pull that off in a reasonable effort. I always saw the removal of WP rushing mid fight as a threat to my dungeon experiences. I really do appreciate the effort that’s gone into tuning content so that even without WPs, people maintain access to it. I’m yet to see how it will play out, but I can respect and appreciate that the effort was made.

Some TA paths might benefit from additional WPs. Just saying.

That sounds like a much more enjoyable event, truly. Thanks for the sneak peak, Rob!

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Oglaf.1074:

Any chance for a sneak peek? Just one encounter….?

:P

Throw us a bone here!

I was hoping it would be a surprise, but sure. I rebuilt the “Defend Magg while he plants the bomb” event in CoF (path 2). It now involves a special flame legion assassin who must be killed before he reaches Magg, while dealing with never-ending spawns of (non veteran…) flame legion out to distract the players and add pressure.

I misread the last part as pleasure. Now I’m disappointed… Regardless, consider the bone thrown! Thanks, Robert :P

TA is in dire need of waypoints.
There’s only 1 at the entrance, if you wipe at the end you have a good 10 minutes of running to get back there.

Is the Greater Nightmare Vine encounter in TA being reworked with the res rush change in mind? All the red circles make it impossible to revive someone after they’ve defeated.

Mr eX.3420:

Is the Greater Nightmare Vine encounter in TA being reworked with the res rush change in mind? All the red circles make it impossible to revive someone after they’ve defeated.

Maybe the point is to not die at all? This boss isn’t even legendary.

haviz.1340:

Mr eX.3420:

Is the Greater Nightmare Vine encounter in TA being reworked with the res rush change in mind? All the red circles make it impossible to revive someone after they’ve defeated.

Maybe the point is to not die at all? This boss isn’t even legendary.

I don’t have a problem beating this encounter, but people die and they have to run back. It doesn’t seem very fair or fun.

As much as I love being told I suck (which happens every time I post here,) I would also appreciate being taken seriously.

Mr eX.3420:

Is the Greater Nightmare Vine encounter in TA being reworked with the res rush change in mind? All the red circles make it impossible to revive someone after they’ve defeated.

You noticed all those blossoms ? Kill them when you are down.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

I do intend on putting more waypoints into dungeons, but due to the work required for this upcoming patch we didn’t get enough time to make it happen.
I’m not a fan of “punishment running” wherein your punishment for failing is having to run a long distance back to the fight. To discourage res rushing potential we went initially with fewer waypoints. Now that we are implementing a new tech, I would like to add more to reduce the time spent running back to an objective.
We have more info coming soon to how the system will be working.

That’s perfect, we were always told failing the event was in itself the punishment ( which makes sense ), but I’m glad we won’t also need to run for 5 min just to give it another whirl when the party wipes.

Alpha, as an example, can easily be done without res zerging.
Once you get the timing down it’s pretty easy.
But at times you “obviously”, make mistakes or the game decides it’s appropriate that your dodge jams on invisible rocks that makes you not move an inch. In which case dying happens. Reviving during any alpha fight has to be the dumbest thing ever, and as numbers decrease it becomes tediously long. Adding a 5min run after that slap in the face would be rather depressing.

Thanks for the heads up though !

I sincerely hope that you don’t do anything with Lupicus; he is the single best encounter in the entire game. I do hope that you fix his bugs however, especially the aoe in p2 hitting in areas where it shouldn’t.

Hey Robert… are any of the encounters you’re rebalancing in Story Mode or just Explorables?

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Oglaf.1074:

So you’re just punishing us this patch, promising us compensation for the increased difficulty Soon?

You should hold with the respawn changes until you got the additional Waypoints ready…

Turning off res rushing was a programatic thing to do. As a designer, I spent the entirety of this last patch’s development tuning and ensuring encounters could be accomplished without res rushing.
When you see the patch notes, you’ll be more aware of how much work went into making the anti res-rushing fix not a punishment or an increase in difficuly, but rather a solution to a problem.

I hope you dont forget the exploit people leaving the dungeon when dead, rezzing outside and then getting back in.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Oglaf.1074:

Any chance for a sneak peek? Just one encounter….?

:P

Throw us a bone here!

I was hoping it would be a surprise, but sure. I rebuilt the “Defend Magg while he plants the bomb” event in CoF (path 2). It now involves a special flame legion assassin who must be killed before he reaches Magg, while dealing with never-ending spawns of (non veteran…) flame legion out to distract the players and add pressure.

I am prepared to eat my hat. Here I thought this (terrible) dps/tank check would remain forever.

How about the vendors in FotM being upgraded to sell Necklaces for pristines?

I don’t think there’s anything they could do about that Maled. You can’t force a player not to leave a dungeon instance, nor can you force a dead player outside of a dungeon to be unable to revive. Fortunately, this is alleviated by the fact that:

1) The player when re-entering the dungeon must start from the dungeon entrance (very very long walk)
2) The player now has to pay to revive at a WP outside the dungeon rather than for free inside
3) The player has to go through two additional load screens to do this.

I doubt it’ll be a concern.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Shiren.9532:

Robert, are you the head/one of the top people on the dungeon team (it’s possible I just made up “dungeon team”)? You are one of the most communicative members of the ArenaNet staff and you seem to post with solid and satisfying information (possibly a luxury when dealing with dungeon design as opposed to WvW culling or the ephemeral concept of class balance), it would be interesting to know if you are a minion or the guy holding the whip.

Even when I disagree with things the “dungeon team” does, at least I usually understand them from your posts.

After Fractals shipped and just before this last week, I have been the sole designer on the Live Team’s dungeon content. We have designers on the team for other content, but because I built a few of the dungeons we launched with, I am familiar with the current content. I am also a passionate dungeon player, so I feel like it’s been a good fit for me to update and upkeep the dungeons.
In a sense, I both hold the whip and and whipping myself in regards to dungeon content and getting things done (ouch). I have my leads that I answer to and get permissions from, but largely I am acting on what I feel is making the dungeons better. I am leading the charge on improving dungeon content, but I am not a manager or anything – I’m a “in the trenches” designer who just so happens to also post a lot in the dungeon forums to keep players up to date and keep an eye on things.

This last week I have been allotted a fellow designer (who sometimes posts here) by the name of William, who is going to help me with updating dungeon content and our plans going forward (we have big stuff coming down the pipeline for dungeons).

click the link or skip to 6:44

so this is/was the dungeon team, right? i guess it’s safe to say that Jeff Grubb is working on something expansion-related. but what happened to Kevin and Dan? are they working on the expansion as well?

i realize you’re most likely not allowed to talk about the expansion, but i felt likey posting anyway

1) True, but thats not always a problem.
2) Not if other people are waiting infront dungeon instance willing to rezz.
3) loading screens are no problem for people with SSD

This exploit would be easy to fix by disallowing to rejoin the dungeon while someone inside the dungeon is in combat mode.

When you leave a dungeon while dead, you appear where you were when you entered the dungeon, which may or may not be at the dungeon entrance. And while loading screens may not be a problem for uber computers, it’s still an annoyance and makes this functionality you speak of more of a pain than it is worth. Once you get back into the dungeon, if your team is in combat you can’t use WPs, and thus have to run to them. There are very few encounters that could feasibly be zerged in this way.

Furthermore, I don’t think it’s a fair solution to say that you can’t enter a dungeon while your team is in combat. What if I just start a dungeon and haven’t joined yet, but a couple people from my team are fighting the Spider Queen from AC without me? Does that mean I am disallowed from joining, helping, and being rewarded? I don’t think your proposal is a fair solution, and addresses a problem I’d hardly consider a problem at all.

RedStar.4218:

Mr eX.3420:

Is the Greater Nightmare Vine encounter in TA being reworked with the res rush change in mind? All the red circles make it impossible to revive someone after they’ve defeated.

You noticed all those blossoms ? Kill them when you are down.

I’m well aware of this. That doesn’t help your allies revive you when you defeat, which is what my question is about.

Mr eX.3420:

I’m well aware of this. That doesn’t help your allies revive you when you defeat, which is what my question is about.

That was my point : stay near blossoms. That way you can use it to rally instead of being defeated.

Rising Dusk.2408:

When you leave a dungeon while dead, you appear where you were when you entered the dungeon, which may or may not be at the dungeon entrance. And while loading screens may not be a problem for uber computers, it’s still an annoyance and makes this functionality you speak of more of a pain than it is worth. Once you get back into the dungeon, if your team is in combat you can’t use WPs, and thus have to run to them. There are very few encounters that could feasibly be zerged in this way.

Furthermore, I don’t think it’s a fair solution to say that you can’t enter a dungeon while your team is in combat. What if I just start a dungeon and haven’t joined yet, but a couple people from my team are fighting the Spider Queen from AC without me? Does that mean I am disallowed from joining, helping, and being rewarded? I don’t think your proposal is a fair solution, and addresses a problem I’d hardly consider a problem at all.

Thats a team spirit problem if people start before everyone is there, not fault of the game.

Malediktus.9250:

Rising Dusk.2408:

When you leave a dungeon while dead, you appear where you were when you entered the dungeon, which may or may not be at the dungeon entrance. And while loading screens may not be a problem for uber computers, it’s still an annoyance and makes this functionality you speak of more of a pain than it is worth. Once you get back into the dungeon, if your team is in combat you can’t use WPs, and thus have to run to them. There are very few encounters that could feasibly be zerged in this way.

Furthermore, I don’t think it’s a fair solution to say that you can’t enter a dungeon while your team is in combat. What if I just start a dungeon and haven’t joined yet, but a couple people from my team are fighting the Spider Queen from AC without me? Does that mean I am disallowed from joining, helping, and being rewarded? I don’t think your proposal is a fair solution, and addresses a problem I’d hardly consider a problem at all.

Thats a team spirit problem if people start before everyone is there, not fault of the game.

Yes and this might even help team-building in dungeons if done right. If you know you will be in a disadvantage not looking after your team, people might do less solo-play in groups. Making sure everyone is with you and ready before you pull and not running of or going in blind without everyone being on the same page on what to do.
(one boss can have several tactics)

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Oglaf.1074:

So you’re just punishing us this patch, promising us compensation for the increased difficulty Soon?

You should hold with the respawn changes until you got the additional Waypoints ready…

Turning off res rushing was a programatic thing to do. As a designer, I spent the entirety of this last patch’s development tuning and ensuring encounters could be accomplished without res rushing.
When you see the patch notes, you’ll be more aware of how much work went into making the anti res-rushing fix not a punishment or an increase in difficuly, but rather a solution to a problem.

As a GW1 fan who has played ArenaNet’s games for 7 years, I really want to voice how pleased I am at the direction of this update.

It truly sounds like it is a step in the right direction, and I believe it sounds quite polished!

The individual fractal dungeons have some of the best dungeon design in all of GW2! With lessons learned from that, I’m really looking forward to the new content!

I give you and your team an applause!

Rising Dusk.2408:

When you leave a dungeon while dead, you appear where you were when you entered the dungeon, which may or may not be at the dungeon entrance. And while loading screens may not be a problem for uber computers, it’s still an annoyance and makes this functionality you speak of more of a pain than it is worth. Once you get back into the dungeon, if your team is in combat you can’t use WPs, and thus have to run to them. There are very few encounters that could feasibly be zerged in this way.

Furthermore, I don’t think it’s a fair solution to say that you can’t enter a dungeon while your team is in combat. What if I just start a dungeon and haven’t joined yet, but a couple people from my team are fighting the Spider Queen from AC without me? Does that mean I am disallowed from joining, helping, and being rewarded? I don’t think your proposal is a fair solution, and addresses a problem I’d hardly consider a problem at all.

They could take a solution from GW1. In GW1 if you are disconnected inside an instance, when you log back in you are put back at exactly the same spot you were before the DC. This would make disconnects less annoying AND prevent the exploit you mentioned.

Khisanth.2948:

They could take a solution from GW1. In GW1 if you are disconnected inside an instance, when you log back in you are put back at exactly the same spot you were before the DC. This would make disconnects less annoying AND prevent the exploit you mentioned.

The problem would be boss fights.
I almost never have lag but don’t know why in gw2 it takes ages for the screen to load. In a boss fight i would be dead weight if i spawned exactly on the same spot. It should be at least the closest WP (since new ones will be introduced it shouldn’t be that much of an hassle to run back to the fight, i think).