Guild Wars 2

in a lore perspective, normally in creepy dangerous places, the heroes stick together and cover each others weaknesses/look out for each other because if they are separated, they’re more likely to be picked off one by one, its what predators such as lions do, they pick out a single weak target that has been separated from the group and go for that one, different shoals of fish and even birds stay together to confuse the predator and make it harder to pick out an individual, safety in numbers people

Anubarak.3012:

We let you play like you want

No you don’t.

Before the LFG tool, all the gear-check and achievement-check discussions…

Again, you are trying to somehow reverse the term “elitist” and stick it to people that are tolerant and play the game without discriminating or cheesing. Not gonna work, I promise.

why are you using PO? pokemon showdown is 10000 times better than it

I don’t care how you run dungeons and those two are giving advices how it’s best to run efficiently. You, on the other hand, are saying we’re not playing a game because we skip mobs.

I just died when running trash

I’m curious.

From a scale of not playing the game 0 to 10 playing the game where do you put elitist mob-skip filled dungeoning?

Now… Where would mindlessly spamming 1 on a zerker/pvt staff guardian to tag for credit in Frostgorge champion farming and World Event Zerging?

Add playing TP to that. And crafting.

zencow.3651:

I’m curious.

From a scale of not playing the game 0 to 10 playing the game where do you put elitist mob-skip filled dungeoning?

Now… Where would mindlessly spamming 1 on a zerker/pvt staff guardian to tag for credit in Frostgorge champion farming and World Event Zerging?

Do you have to attach numbers to everything?

Jeez, one can’t even have an argument without someone rating something with a scale.

Quantification lends itself to direct comparison more concretely than assigning an arbitrary valuation which you don’t mention, but constantly reference.

Try again.

Thanks for some material to use in my cm speed run vid commentary.

I need to get Eugene on the phone.

My 2 cents… stacking is fine, using stealth/paths to skip mobs is fine (heck even a dev told a player that was having trouble with a mob in a personal story that the mob was meant to be skipped), etc… but if the boss isn’t even fighting back because of player placement (etc.), then that’s an exploit.

If the devs want us to fight every single thing and for us to spread out they could make us do that via mob/boss mechanics/adding checks like they did in CoF P2 and the rest.

If you don’t want to skip anything and not stack, just put it in the description. Ask everyone that joins if they read the description just to make sure (unfortunately many people don’t). It would be nice if they added symbols or filters or something to help players form these different types of parties… that way we could all play the way we like.

Stacking is no exploit. Today fastest way how do dungeons is stacking full zerk group.
If longer dungeon is fine for you, just form your own group and let everyone know how you want to run it.
But most people just want gold or tokens and have no time to run dungeon 30 minutes instead of 10+/- minutes.

AntiGW is one of those people who thinks not playing like an idiot = exploiting.

I suggest from now on, when you clean your house, instead of putting all your stuff aside before swiping the floor, you just start swiping, and every time you encounter something, you pick it up, swipe underneath it, and then put it back. Because you know, thoughtful positioning of objects when trying to perform a task is just cheating and a sign of lazyness.

Oh, right, that sounds absolutely f***ing ret*rded.

I’m not sure to call it exploiting, consider doing those AC35+ run I have problem surviving even with stacking.

And I actually play a guardian stacking all healing ability. selfness daring, writ of merciful, healing breeze, hold the line, wall of reflection, shield of avenger, staff secondary.

Nerf the exploits until brave rifle warriors are meta, and then nerf them.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Nerf the exploits until brave rifle warriors are meta, and then nerf them.

http://youtu.be/4DzcOCyHDqc

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

Nerf the exploits until brave rifle warriors are meta, and then nerf them.

Reminds me my today AC1 run, where Soldier/knight warrior used rifle for last boss and wanted everyone else to use ranged too.
I will never forget his words ,,We dont need DPS" :-D

^ that is actually not a bad idea. Because you want to kite the scavenger into the flame. So range isn’t bad.

And not every pug can kill fast enough. Unless you think you are good enough and have enough staility to melee it while 30 scavenger is knocking you down fill free.

I do melee but when I see too many scavenger around me, I definately range and go to the flame.

laokoko.7403:

^ that is actually not a bad idea. Because you want to kite the scavenger into the flame. So range isn’t bad.

And not every pug can kill fast enough. Unless you think you are good enough and have enough staility to melee it while 30 scavenger is knocking you down fill free.

I do melee but when I see too many scavenger around me, I definately range and go to the flame.

From what I noticed, it’s best to pull him in the back corner, giving the scavengers more time to kill themselves. Party goes full melee and burst as much as possible (avoiding confusion cone spray). Once the scavengers start to overwhelm you, pop stability and kite/range.

Similar to ascalonian boss in fotm.

With enough damage dealt and pro-party RNG (means the flames are spawning almost most of the time on the boss and you’ve locked him on the edge of the area) you can eschew with stability and stunbreaks – but it’s really better to have them.

Ethics.4519:

laokoko.7403:

^ that is actually not a bad idea. Because you want to kite the scavenger into the flame. So range isn’t bad.

And not every pug can kill fast enough. Unless you think you are good enough and have enough staility to melee it while 30 scavenger is knocking you down fill free.

I do melee but when I see too many scavenger around me, I definately range and go to the flame.

From what I noticed, it’s best to pull him in the back corner, giving the scavengers more time to kill themselves. Party goes full melee and burst as much as possible (avoiding confusion cone spray). Once the scavengers start to overwhelm you, pop stability and kite/range.

Similar to ascalonian boss in fotm.

I dont’ know i’m lvl 48 atm. my group of 35+ surely can’t burst him down. It depend on the group really.

But that is exaclty what I’m doing. I melee first. but usually don’t have enough dps, so start range when scavenger start become overwhelming.

I usually do pug. and it’s not always like those pro group you guys are doing.

Ethics.4519:

laokoko.7403:

^ that is actually not a bad idea. Because you want to kite the scavenger into the flame. So range isn’t bad.

And not every pug can kill fast enough. Unless you think you are good enough and have enough staility to melee it while 30 scavenger is knocking you down fill free.

I do melee but when I see too many scavenger around me, I definately range and go to the flame.

From what I noticed, it’s best to pull him in the back corner, giving the scavengers more time to kill themselves. Party goes full melee and burst as much as possible (avoiding confusion cone spray). Once the scavengers start to overwhelm you, pop stability and kite/range.

Similar to ascalonian boss in fotm.

Exactly best way how to kill him. Why should i fight that boss 2+ minutes with non zerk range group if i can kill him in less then minute (even seconds with full zerk) this way?
I dont want to sound like ,,elitist" or something but really i am asking why?
This may sound like OT, but isnt becouse it is still about stackin in one place :-D

daros.3407:

I dont want to sound like ,,elitist" or something but really i am asking why?

You’re not, that’s called common sense.

No, you’re not the only one who feels that way, OP.

I mean, we’ve had a thread on the topic bi-weekly for nearly a year. That’s a startlingly high statistic, considering the vast majority of unsatisfied customers wordlessly walk away and never bother to leave a complaint.

If it makes you feel any better, newer dungeon designs are doing better on the…I don’t know…Cheesiness potential? So in the very least it seems dungeons seem to be evolving away from it. And in like, two years, when they finally get around to nuking the last old dungeon path with revision the problem will be fixed >.>;

daros.3407:

Ethics.4519:

laokoko.7403:

^ that is actually not a bad idea. Because you want to kite the scavenger into the flame. So range isn’t bad.

And not every pug can kill fast enough. Unless you think you are good enough and have enough staility to melee it while 30 scavenger is knocking you down fill free.

I do melee but when I see too many scavenger around me, I definately range and go to the flame.

From what I noticed, it’s best to pull him in the back corner, giving the scavengers more time to kill themselves. Party goes full melee and burst as much as possible (avoiding confusion cone spray). Once the scavengers start to overwhelm you, pop stability and kite/range.

Similar to ascalonian boss in fotm.

Exactly best way how to kill him. Why should i fight that boss 2+ minutes with non zerk range group if i can kill him in less then minute (even seconds with full zerk) this way?
I dont want to sound like ,,elitist" or something but really i am asking why?
This may sound like OT, but isnt becouse it is still about stackin in one place :-D

Because I’m not lvl80 and you’ll kick me if I join your group.

laokoko.7403:

daros.3407:

Ethics.4519:

laokoko.7403:

^ that is actually not a bad idea. Because you want to kite the scavenger into the flame. So range isn’t bad.

And not every pug can kill fast enough. Unless you think you are good enough and have enough staility to melee it while 30 scavenger is knocking you down fill free.

I do melee but when I see too many scavenger around me, I definately range and go to the flame.

From what I noticed, it’s best to pull him in the back corner, giving the scavengers more time to kill themselves. Party goes full melee and burst as much as possible (avoiding confusion cone spray). Once the scavengers start to overwhelm you, pop stability and kite/range.

Similar to ascalonian boss in fotm.

Exactly best way how to kill him. Why should i fight that boss 2+ minutes with non zerk range group if i can kill him in less then minute (even seconds with full zerk) this way?
I dont want to sound like ,,elitist" or something but really i am asking why?
This may sound like OT, but isnt becouse it is still about stackin in one place :-D

Because I’m not lvl80 and you’ll kick me if I join your group.

Sory but of cource. As low lvl you can create your own levling group with other low lvls. It can really makes difference if low lvl is in party. Low lvl can be usefull with proper gear and traits, but they usualy they aren’t. and even with that they far from 80lvl.
You should undestand that as low lvl you are making dungeon longer and harder for rest of group. Do you really want to be weakness of group?
Form levling runs. It will be probably hard and long but if you play well you will make it dont worry.

daros.3407:

laokoko.7403:

daros.3407:

Ethics.4519:

laokoko.7403:

^ that is actually not a bad idea. Because you want to kite the scavenger into the flame. So range isn’t bad.

And not every pug can kill fast enough. Unless you think you are good enough and have enough staility to melee it while 30 scavenger is knocking you down fill free.

I do melee but when I see too many scavenger around me, I definately range and go to the flame.

From what I noticed, it’s best to pull him in the back corner, giving the scavengers more time to kill themselves. Party goes full melee and burst as much as possible (avoiding confusion cone spray). Once the scavengers start to overwhelm you, pop stability and kite/range.

Similar to ascalonian boss in fotm.

Exactly best way how to kill him. Why should i fight that boss 2+ minutes with non zerk range group if i can kill him in less then minute (even seconds with full zerk) this way?
I dont want to sound like ,,elitist" or something but really i am asking why?
This may sound like OT, but isnt becouse it is still about stackin in one place :-D

Because I’m not lvl80 and you’ll kick me if I join your group.

Sory but of cource. As low lvl you can create your own levling group with other low lvls. It can really makes difference if low lvl is in party. Low lvl can be usefull with proper gear and traits, but they usualy they aren’t. and even with that they far from 80lvl.
You should undestand that as low lvl you are making dungeon longer and harder for rest of group. Do you really want to be weakness of group?
Form levling runs. It will be probably hard and long but if you play well you will make it dont worry.

That’s fine. I’m just explaining not every group is optimized with full dps and skilled player, that’s why they have different strategy on how to fight boss.

laokoko.7403:

daros.3407:

laokoko.7403:

daros.3407:

Ethics.4519:

laokoko.7403:

^ that is actually not a bad idea. Because you want to kite the scavenger into the flame. So range isn’t bad.

And not every pug can kill fast enough. Unless you think you are good enough and have enough staility to melee it while 30 scavenger is knocking you down fill free.

I do melee but when I see too many scavenger around me, I definately range and go to the flame.

From what I noticed, it’s best to pull him in the back corner, giving the scavengers more time to kill themselves. Party goes full melee and burst as much as possible (avoiding confusion cone spray). Once the scavengers start to overwhelm you, pop stability and kite/range.

Similar to ascalonian boss in fotm.

Exactly best way how to kill him. Why should i fight that boss 2+ minutes with non zerk range group if i can kill him in less then minute (even seconds with full zerk) this way?
I dont want to sound like ,,elitist" or something but really i am asking why?
This may sound like OT, but isnt becouse it is still about stackin in one place :-D

Because I’m not lvl80 and you’ll kick me if I join your group.

Sory but of cource. As low lvl you can create your own levling group with other low lvls. It can really makes difference if low lvl is in party. Low lvl can be usefull with proper gear and traits, but they usualy they aren’t. and even with that they far from 80lvl.
You should undestand that as low lvl you are making dungeon longer and harder for rest of group. Do you really want to be weakness of group?
Form levling runs. It will be probably hard and long but if you play well you will make it dont worry.

That’s fine. I’m just explaining not every group is optimized with full dps and skilled player, that’s why they have different strategy on how to fight boss.

My strategy applies to all groups. The difference is optimized lvl 80 groups will take his health down a lot further than non-optimized low level groups.

oh kitten my poppy tree got chopped

I took my time and read all of this thread. OP: Learn to play. I regulary kick antisozial players like you who don‘t understand basic gw2 mechanixs from my groups. Please avoid joing groups and puniahing normal players with your presence until you learn to play.

Instance combat is inherently flawed. This is a problem for the devs to address, not the players.
As a general rule, players will NEVER willingly let an exploit be fixed.

The problem is; if the devs DO fix it, then the lazy elitists will cry rivers of bile.
The devs are stuck trying to please everybody, and only really paying attention to the loudest complainers. I feel sorry for Anet, but they really need to decide what they want their game to be. They can’t please everyone, so they needs to finally decide who their game will appeal to. It’s a tough decision, and I honestly feel sorry for their having to do it.
But otherwise they will fall to mediocrity.

Exploiting isn’t skill, it’s cheating. And it needs to be treated as such.

D I V A.6018:

I took my time and read all of this thread. OP: Learn to play. I regulary kick antisozial players like you who don‘t understand basic gw2 mechanixs from my groups. Please avoid joing groups and puniahing normal players with your presence until you learn to play.

Stackin isnta gw2 mechanic is a flaw in the game where you can stay in the exact same space as your fellow players, not at their side. Is the same than killing mobs or trigerring chains fro the other side of the wall, staying in a place and atacking the boss or a mob without him/it moving, the mobs using the same space for eachother or the player inside the mob.

That arent mechanics, are flaws, isnt learning to play, is learning to use a game flaw and capitalizate it.

In a single player game, a game with this kind of flaws is trashed as bad in quality, morpgs are more complicated to create so people let it pass, but this isnt learn to play, is you twisting reality (in your mind) to said that.

it IS learn to play. LOSing behaviour is intentional by anet, and according to another user, is even suggested by the official guidebook. deal with it or go play something else.

the examples you suggested are exploits. LOS is not.

guanlongwucaii.3162:

it IS learn to play. LOSing behaviour is intentional by anet, and according to another user, is even suggested by the official guidebook. deal with it or go play something else.

the examples you suggested are exploits. LOS is not.

LOS is totally diferent, but with LOS the enemy is suposed to try to atack you and fail, but also try to move if isnt working, very easy examples of LOS are when you try to hit a enemy up in the walls of the fort and you cant, then he moves and atack you and retorn to his place, the same is for a npc (except that many examples here comes with it not moving or atacking even if the enemy is at three steps- thats extremly poor AI).

And LOS as you stated saying the other things are exploits, dont count withthe npc atacking a wall and you atacking a wall, making so that you kill him because your magical sword do damage for the wall!.

The problem is that people seems to think that all the flaws they exploit are LOS like.

LOS exist in lots of games, first time ever i see people thinking the stack or things like that are LOS…

Play as you wish but stacking is regular non exploit tactic and it will most probably always be.

I read your post wrongly. My bad.

the ability of players to stack on each other is odd and unrealistic, but it would be impractical to prevent players from doing so (imagine LA Trader’s Post wp).

Los is not intentional.
Its just the limit of AI…its not exploiting at all for sure.
As was not using permastealth by thieves.

Its just complete lack of balance..nothing more.

And stacking and losing requires (in most situations) 0 skills……it just requires proper builds.

The point is stacking also reduce time needed to clear a dungeon….so reward wise you get not les sthan 3 times the reward you get playing a dungeon normally.

And since this game has became a total grindfest you can t ignore such rewards thus anyone that knows how to do it, stacks every time.

Another proof:
Fotm are not that much about rewards and that is why stacking is less used in fotms…otherwise we would see every run as a copy-paste even there.

I sure am glad that these people are the minority.

guanlongwucaii.3162:

I read your post wrongly. My bad.

the ability of players to stack on each other is odd and unrealistic, but it would be impractical to prevent players from doing so (imagine LA Trader’s Post wp).

Np, yeah it will be caos and a very anoying form of trolling. I think it will be okay only in dungeons, spvp and instances like personal story.

LordByron.8369:

Los is not intentional.
Its just the limit of AI…its not exploiting at all for sure.
As was not using permastealth by thieves.

Its just complete lack of balance..nothing more.

And stacking and losing requires (in most situations) 0 skills……it just requires proper builds.

The point is stacking also reduce time needed to clear a dungeon….so reward wise you get not les sthan 3 times the reward you get playing a dungeon normally.

And since this game has became a total grindfest you can t ignore such rewards thus anyone that knows how to do it, stacks every time.

Another proof:
Fotm are not that much about rewards and that is why stacking is less used in fotms…otherwise we would see every run as a copy-paste even there.

Who doesn’t stack in fotm?

haviz.1340:

Who doesn’t stack in fotm?

try to pug once…….99% won t stack.
Or just use youtube….

We know that really few stacks in fotms….that is why fotms are fun..
You don t Always repeat the same actions in the same exact moment.

Woah, since when sometimes means 99%. Are there any vids on youtube with pugs?

I rarely fotm, but I once heard someone say at 48+ that even in PuGs: no LoS and stacking = kicked since it gets you party wiped. The baddies have finally caught up huh?

Lol, LordByron strikes again…

For the few times I used PUGs to fill a FotM party during early hours, they usually followed directions pretty well, and stacked/LoS’ed when we told them to, and sometimes even spontaneously, implying that they do it on other runs too (note that I’ve used PUGs for 28, 38 and 48 and this applies to all).

Not to mention, LoS is intentional. Let’s say LoS’ing doesn’t work, and mobs don’t move the shortest possible distance for their ranged attacks to hit when you make them obstructed, you know what would happen then? People would just stack in an obstructed spot, kill off all melee, and then move on to the ranged. Or they’d just pull everything together and kill them all together still. I’m pretty sure that sounds more exploit-y than using legit pull tactics that have been around in a lot of MMO’s.

Lets think on a group of veteran/silver mobs (3/4 should be fine) that are coded to not be baited by LoS (or the fight mechanics / room designed to avoid that) and try to behave human-like (they have weapon swap, endurance bar, heals, cleanses, stunbreakers, …).
A group like this could spawn whenever an (interesting if possible) boss goes into the next phase (with different mechancis and skillset, if possible), being invulnerable and gaining health in the meanwhile, so the longer it takes you to finish the adds, the longer the next phase will be.

Suddenly, everything changes. The current tactics (stacking in melee, maximizing boons, while trying to perform maximum DPS rotations and avoiding hits, be it by regular dodges, aegis or whatever) will probably be still viable against the boss itself, but not necesarily with the adds.
You hardly can melee stack and full DPS against a GS/S phantasm mesmer that will knockback you if you don’t pop up stability, evade twice (at least, he will probably have permavigor) in a random direction (so you can’t stack foes with an AoE CC skill and get them stacked for the entire fight), use phase retreat if out of endurance or immobilized, blink if cced, moa the most threatening damage source, … while still being AoEd by reamaining foes.
A fight like this would probably encourage the use of CCs, immobilizes, gap closers, ranged secondary weapons, interrupts, coditions, … and A LOT of teamplay.

Coding something like this (a proper AI) could probably be a nightmare, but I (and everyone looking for really fun and challenging content I guess) would love to experience it, at least for once.
I absolutely think that it beats hands down the current full DPS LoS/stacking gameplay and the current difficulty ramp up by HP pool and raw damage increase.

Vargamonth.2047:

Lets think on a group of veteran/silver mobs (3/4 should be fine) that are coded to not be baited by LoS (or the fight mechanics / room designed to avoid that) and try to behave human-like (they have weapon swap, endurance bar, heals, cleanses, stunbreakers, …).
A group like this could spawn whenever an (interesting if possible) boss goes into the next phase (with different mechancis and skillset, if possible), being invulnerable and gaining health in the meanwhile, so the longer it takes you to finish the adds, the longer the next phase will be.

Suddenly, everything changes. The current tactics (stacking in melee, maximizing boons, while trying to perform maximum DPS rotations and avoiding hits, be it by regular dodges, aegis or whatever) will probably be still viable against the boss itself, but not necesarily with the adds.
You hardly can melee stack and full DPS against a GS/S phantasm mesmer that will knockback you if you don’t pop up stability, evade twice (at least, he will probably have permavigor) in a random direction (so you can’t stack foes with an AoE CC skill and get them stacked for the entire fight), use phase retreat if out of endurance or immobilized, blink if cced, moa the most threatening damage source, … while still being AoEd by reamaining foes.
A fight like this would probably encourage the use of CCs, immobilizes, gap closers, ranged secondary weapons, interrupts, coditions, … and A LOT of teamplay.

Coding something like this (a proper AI) could probably be a nightmare, but I (and everyone looking for really fun and challenging content I guess) would love to experience it, at least for once.
I absolutely think that it beats hands down the current full DPS LoS/stacking gameplay and the current difficulty ramp up by HP pool and raw damage increase.

That would be awesome. But there is always one fundamental flaw, ai is not human and you can always find a way to exploit that fact.

Vargamonth.2047:

snip

In GW1, foes used the same skills that players used, which sparked really interesting encounters. Especially seeing how in GW1 you had skills that would interrupt spells specifically, and the art was to be able to interrupt a certain spell with a certain cast time with your interrupt spell, which meant, seeing the other player using the spell (you could see cast bars in GW1), and having the reflexes to quickly use your shorter cast-time interrupt. The funny part was, AI was insanely good at this. Meaning that certain interrupt-heavy mobs would be an absolutely nightmare for caster professions, unless you brought hard counters against their interrupts (usually elite skills).

The thing was, even though they used player bars, and their AI mimicked the usage of them (using synergizing skills correctly, interrupting properly, resurrecting downed allies etc), they were still easily abused because it’s still AI, and in the end, we’ll find a way to exploit it.

Not to mention, there are some foes that do exactly what you ask already. The 6 ambushers in TA will use their evade skill when you use a hard-hitting attack (or at least, I get the impression they always use it during my 100b’s), the Wraithlord’s Hunter will dodge attacks. Some foes in CM use blocks (that last for 4 years). Hathari archers will move out of melee range. Etc. It’s just not widely implemented.

Bright.9160:

[…] the Wraithlord’s Hunter will dodge attacks.

That’s precisely what I was talking about. You can exploit him pretty easy.

haviz.1340:

That would be awesome. But there is always one fundamental flaw, ai is not human and you can always find a way to exploit that fact.

It’s designers work to try to make the AIs as solid as possible.
They will always perform on a scripted way and be “exploitable” up to some degree. They probably will suck at kiting and won’t easily avoid AoEs just by moving (it would be “fun” to see this while a ranger pet burns to death inside a big red circle), that’s why they probably should have higher HP pools than human players.
Design flaws that could have been miss (like wasting interrupts against a shelter or using stunbreakers against 1 sec dazes) can also be solved by patches.
You can even randomize spawns, picking enemies from a pool of 10 or more templates, so a given cheesing tactic can’t be used every single time.

If groups find a way to easily beat those encounters, that’s OK (it probably takes more teamplay that the current fights; just that sounds like a step forward to me). It’s still PvE and there’s no reason to try to exactly replicate PvP (that’s what PvP is for :P), just to make some fight PvP-like in order to improve teamplay and encourage the use of many tools that are currently neglected (because they’re mainly balanced around PvP).

As I said, I would love to experience it at least for once, and I encourage ANet to try to design some fight like this for any upcoming LS patch and see how it works (probably won’t happen because it feels like an insane pugbuster :P).