Guild Wars 2

So I skimmed the news article about HoT from today about the outposts and adventures and all of that but not even a single mention of dungeons unless I missed it. My belief is just getting stronger that there will be no new ones ; _ ;

not surprised. my hype for the expansion is slowly dying down. It is at a 75% chance I will be buying it still tho because I want that glider

I suppose that’s part of the problem, they know most of us who like to challenge ourselves in PvE through dungeons and such will still just buy the expansion so why bother. Welcome to corporate world, if it sells, it aint broken.

If you’re going to put your hope into something instanced it’ll likely be fractals, so get your AR ready and work on those… god I hate the RNG though.

Funny you mention it, in a fotm 29 atm, they wanted to and did bug Mossman :/

Well, of interviews hinting at there could be masteries that affect fractals, it’s far more likely to get fractals instead of regular dungeons. I think they prefer fractals now because they can emulate already existing lore with it.

GoD Obelisk.3057:

Funny you mention it, in a fotm 29 atm, they wanted to and did bug Mossman :/

It’s unfortunate that they exist but at the same time he’s brutal enough that I can understand it. I’m still trying to master him myself. Love chill, immob and reflects on him though.

Jerus.4350:

GoD Obelisk.3057:

Funny you mention it, in a fotm 29 atm, they wanted to and did bug Mossman :/

It’s unfortunate that they exist but at the same time he’s brutal enough that I can understand it. I’m still trying to master him myself. Love chill, immob and reflects on him though.

Buuuut 29.

I’ll buy it because it’s important to me to have it, but at this point after seeing how they continually dance around the question I don’t see the current kind of dungeons happening.

New Fractals, probably.
Raids too, there’s hope for those.

Anything instanced will be a blessing. But anet doesnt like to call things by universal names. So if we get a new type of dungeon it will be called something obscure.

spoj.9672:

Anything instanced will be a blessing. But anet doesnt like to call things by universal names. So if we get a new type of dungeon it will be called something obscure.

Are you excited about diving into the muds of challenging content?
Do you like worldboss with repulsive mechanics?
Join your friends in our new challenging content – The Cesspool!
You’ll feel the dirt long days after you tried it.

more fractal stuff today, putting it in the other thread

They’ve explicitly stated that they have no plans for new dungeon content… which makes sense since they appear to be completely focussed on the open world.

And looking at what they’ve been calling “challenging content” (Tequatl, Wurm, Marionette, etc.) it’s clear they’re not interested in creating gameplay that require individual players to learn their class well, but rather gameplay that challenges a large group’s organizational skills — where each individual player is basically a 1-pressing drone who needs only the ability to follow mapchat/TS instructions on where to stand when pressing 1.

Lord Kuru.3685:

And looking at what they’ve been calling “challenging content” (Tequatl, Wurm, Marionette, etc.) it’s clear they’re not interested in creating gameplay that require individual players to learn their class well, but rather gameplay that challenges a large group’s organizational skills — where each individual player is basically a 1-pressing drone who needs only the ability to follow mapchat/TS instructions on where to stand when pressing 1.

100% agree. You’ve summed up my thoughts well.

Keep in mind when they said that they would not have been referring to anything in the expansion since this would have been directly against that policy we love so much. There is quite a bit we don’t know about the expansion yet, but from the recent updates it sounds like at the least fractals are being expanded. We just need to be patient. Some of the people I see posting that we are not getting new dungeons also said that there would never be an expansion. It seems like the CDIs were about getting input from us for material they were putting into the expansion, so it isn’t hopeless.

GoD Obelisk.3057:

I suppose that’s part of the problem, they know most of us who like to challenge ourselves in PvE through dungeons and such will still just buy the expansion so why bother. Welcome to corporate world, if it sells, it aint broken.

Also, I suspect they’ve realised most of the community does dungeons primarily as a farm rather than for the sake of it. They’ve been adding farmable content that doesn’t affect the economy too much, which probably seems like a win for everyone.

We definitely need more party-oriented PvE content though.

Dramen Maidria.1034:

Keep in mind when they said that they would not have been referring to anything in the expansion since this would have been directly against that policy we love so much. There is quite a bit we don’t know about the expansion yet, but from the recent updates it sounds like at the least fractals are being expanded. We just need to be patient. Some of the people I see posting that we are not getting new dungeons also said that there would never be an expansion. It seems like the CDIs were about getting input from us for material they were putting into the expansion, so it isn’t hopeless.

I think it’s a mistake to think their about face on expansions means they might make similar 180 turns on gameplay. The switch to the expansion model is probably purely a money thing, and likely that switch came from the orders of an MBA as opposed to a game dev.

I see zero reason to believe their view on game development has changed at all. In fact, from the various tidbits we know about the expansion, it seems pretty clear that the gameplay will be a natural extension of Anet’s current philosophy on game development.

And that philosophy is: “As long as you’ve grinded out the necessary prerequisites (Level 80, masteries), you can participate and succeed with minimal personal skill and effort.”

The way current content is designed, when your zerg succeeds you feel great because you contributed, but when it fails, you don’t need to take any individual responsibility because you’re just one guy in a big zerg (hypocritical, yes, but that’s human nature). So you never feel bad.

Anet’s target customers are those who want this kind of experience. And that’s why I don’t think there’s much chance of more small-party challenging content.

They have been making great efforts though to move things away from zerging. The two new maps we got with season two actually punish you for just massing in a big ball with no organization. Dry Top required multiple groups to split up for the best rewards, and the events in each section before the sandstorm were so numerous that it encouraged people to take initiative to go after those lesser known events to make them succeed.
Silverwastes took that a step further with the breach bosses. A 5 minute timer meant that if almost everyone was putting in minimal effort then you’d fail at downing the boss. You need more than a couple people with a decent skill level at their class to make those events succeed. Do those of us running high damage builds end up carrying people, yes, but it did encourage more players to learn to pull their weight, to actually learn boss mechanics and not just stand in a safe spot and auto-attack for free loot (although some people still do that).
I look at it this way. I have heard over and over that GW2 has the best combat system of any MMO out there. It is what draws everyone back in. I don’t think at launch Anet fully understood the combat system they created or even how to use it. I can’t fault them for that, it was something entirely new. Our vanilla dungeons bosses are mostly static, they cycle through abilities but don’t move unless they have to chase down players. only a handful (two?) have actual phases. LS started and we began to see some changes with Molten Facility. Now enter season 2. The encounters we have gotten with this season are miles beyond what we had before. The combat is much more dynamic, bosses have movement abilities, there are times you have to get away from them due to a point blank aoe that is more than a second long, some of them have movement phases where you can’t effectively attack them. The combat system is being utilized much better than before.
It is entirely possible they chose to hold off on any new dungeons until they felt they were better able to utilize the combat system. The enemy AI is honestly one of the real issues with the original dungeons, they are too easily exploited. This isn’t an easy problem to fix. Look how long it took for boss encounters to evolve. LS season 1 seemed like a test run with this stuff, a fairly easy way to try out new mechanics to see what does and doesn’t work.
I could be giving them too much credit with the situation. We already know though that they wanted to add raids, and to directly quote Colin, “We will begin by talking about what we think instanced co-operative group based ‘challenging’ content could look like in GW2.” When they started that CDI they already had instanced content in mind, were likely already working on it considering how recent that CDI was to the announcement of the expansion. Grant it right now we have no idea what the difference between a raid and a dungeon will be for GW2, maybe we get both, maybe we just get raids. All the features of the expansion listed so far have their roots in CDIs, I think we have a good chance of getting our challenging instanced content.

Speaking of silverwastes, I was doing one big boss thing (starts with a small orange aoe circle to push melee’s back and instantly follows with a large to pull ranged people in) in a zerg of 35 players. Overall dps was 55k, of which I personally contributed roughly 5k…
36 players doing the dps of 11 properly equipped ones, and the boss still died with like 1:40 on the timer left. Timer should be 1 minute instead of 5 minutes. Or maybe 1:30 for to allow for well equipped bads. But nomad ranging gs mesmers should just not be allowed…

Dub.1273:

Speaking of silverwastes, I was doing one big boss thing (starts with a small orange aoe circle to push melee’s back and instantly follows with a large to pull ranged people in) in a zerg of 35 players. Overall dps was 55k, of which I personally contributed roughly 5k…
36 players doing the dps of 11 properly equipped ones, and the boss still died with like 1:40 on the timer left. Timer should be 1 minute instead of 5 minutes. Or maybe 1:30 for to allow for well equipped bads. But nomad ranging gs mesmers should just not be allowed…

that is a disturbing set of numbers.

That actually sounds reasonable. Few guys pull their weight and rest do 10%.

Ropechef.6192:

Dub.1273:

Speaking of silverwastes, I was doing one big boss thing (starts with a small orange aoe circle to push melee’s back and instantly follows with a large to pull ranged people in) in a zerg of 35 players. Overall dps was 55k, of which I personally contributed roughly 5k…
36 players doing the dps of 11 properly equipped ones, and the boss still died with like 1:40 on the timer left. Timer should be 1 minute instead of 5 minutes. Or maybe 1:30 for to allow for well equipped bads. But nomad ranging gs mesmers should just not be allowed…

that is a disturbing set of numbers.

The worst part is that muffin and xaffie probably contributed another 10k of those.

You forget that boss has a second heal mechanics by people bursting poison bubbles, right?

I didn’t even know that, but it doesn’t matter. My esp takes heals into account for general dps and relates personal dps to that.

You can totally ignore the heals with sufficient dps. All the casuals are afraid of the heals and do even worse dps than usual though. Which completely contradicts what they are trying to do.

There was a breach where it was just me and 4 other people on that boss, we finished him with half the time still remaining. Fastest kill time on him I have ever seen, and I finished my luminescent set so I have done those bosses quite a few times.

The best way to deal dmg is to melee the boss. Either range him (low dps) or aoe (heal the boss) isn’t ideal. But to melee, you need to dodge his pull and also need a body block against the poison spin, both of which I think are too advanced for a random person in the zerg. I doubt that a singular DPS can ever reach 5k there. Actually, reflect works insanely well against this boss :x

Which reminds me how I got into it with some guy on map chat one Vinewrath attempt when he made this comment on there’s all these downed zerk players each boss attempt. So I had to bust his bubble by telling him since these bosses are on timers the zerk players are carrying the fight since usually there isn’t much time left before they go down. He didn’t like that, refused to believe it.

The aoe heals really dont amount to much. And once you kill a few with aoes its a while before more are in range. You can completely ignore the mechanic. Same for copper. The smoothest/fastest coppers i saw was before everyone started safespotting. Where everyone just ran around and aoe’d the kitten out of everything.

Copper works better with massive aoe since the bubbles get popped before they get close enough to heal him. People are slowly waking up about that. Copper went from one of the first down to always failing when that no aoe crap started.

I just leave Copper for another boss when I see people safespot him.

For copper isn’kitten like 5-10% heal from a Bubble, but just a regen boon for any of the little adds?

Yeah the little guys just stack regen, blasting them down doesn’t really affect the fight but it does make it easier for the people fighting melee. They can stack well over a minute of cripple and 20 stacks of bleeding if you already burned your dodges on the boss. As an interesting side note I have been doing that boss on my necro lately and those little buggers give you life force when they die, so you can maintain death shroud for the entire fight.

Iris Ng.9845:

The best way to deal dmg is to melee the boss. Either range him (low dps) or aoe (heal the boss) isn’t ideal. But to melee, you need to dodge his pull and also need a body block against the poison spin, both of which I think are too advanced for a random person in the zerg. I doubt that a singular DPS can ever reach 5k there. Actually, reflect works insanely well against this boss :x

Spam lava font and fireball. Goal achieved. Throw in meteor shower, glyph of storms and frostbow and you’re at 10k easily.

Except that it’s not. There is way too much down time between the boss jumps around to different locations in the room, dodging the aoe pull and the poison spin that an ele cannot face tank at all. You can throw all the skills and try to burst him at one point hoping that he won’t teleport in the middle of your burst, but your dps isn’t 10k as you think.

If people actually used reflects then those poison bolts wouldnt be an issue. But yeah you cant maintain good dps on that boss. But you should definitely try to burst as much as possible with AOE.

Ropechef.6192:

Dub.1273:

Speaking of silverwastes, I was doing one big boss thing (starts with a small orange aoe circle to push melee’s back and instantly follows with a large to pull ranged people in) in a zerg of 35 players. Overall dps was 55k, of which I personally contributed roughly 5k…
36 players doing the dps of 11 properly equipped ones, and the boss still died with like 1:40 on the timer left. Timer should be 1 minute instead of 5 minutes. Or maybe 1:30 for to allow for well equipped bads. But nomad ranging gs mesmers should just not be allowed…

that is a disturbing set of numbers.

Man, why do people post things like that? You know any way of accurately tracking DPS is against the TOS.

So is running the game. And it doesnt make the data any less valid.

spoj.9672:

So is running the game. And it doesnt make the data any less valid.

It’s more I guess an example of you guys trust that they actually don’t read the forums :p

That aside, I honestly have zero idea what the post in question is supposed to prove. Is he just bragging about his damage? Complaining about ‘bads’? What’s the point?

Windsagio.1340:

spoj.9672:

So is running the game. And it doesnt make the data any less valid.

It’s more I guess an example of you guys trust that they actually don’t read the forums :p

That aside, I honestly have zero idea what the post in question is supposed to prove. Is he just bragging about his damage? Complaining about ‘bads’? What’s the point?

Why aren’t you in the general forums if you have nothing to do with dungeons?

The point is ANet forces open world content where 5 people do the job for the other 30 as well which is just utterly frustrating to the part of the playerbase that makes effort towards efficient and goal oriented gameplay which you arent the part of it so its not a surprise you dont even understand a simple post like that.

Windsagio.1340:

spoj.9672:

So is running the game. And it doesnt make the data any less valid.

It’s more I guess an example of you guys trust that they actually don’t read the forums :p

That aside, I honestly have zero idea what the post in question is supposed to prove. Is he just bragging about his damage? Complaining about ‘bads’? What’s the point?

Reread it.

You have dozens of people doing the output of a dozen.

It’s a general frustration with the open world, where you’re forced to group up with people who simply don’t share your play style and you have NO CHOICE about who you play with in large part to these megaservers which ANet forced on us (which I fully believe was to reduce stress on their side, not really for our benefit)

Dalanor.5387:

Windsagio.1340:

spoj.9672:

So is running the game. And it doesnt make the data any less valid.

It’s more I guess an example of you guys trust that they actually don’t read the forums :p

That aside, I honestly have zero idea what the post in question is supposed to prove. Is he just bragging about his damage? Complaining about ‘bads’? What’s the point?

Why aren’t you in the general forums if you have nothing to do with dungeons?

The point is ANet forces open world content where 5 people do the job for the other 30 as well which is just utterly frustrating to the part of the playerbase that makes effort towards efficient and goal oriented gameplay which you arent the part of it so its not a surprise you dont even understand a simple post like that.

I play a lot of dungeons, though, people can play and enjoy them without being in your club.

You bring up a good point though, he’s complaining about non-dungeon content being too easy, why is he posting the complaint in the dungeon forum? It seems like a HOT or general forum appropriate complaint to me.

Your style of gameplay doesn’t define the right way to play and doesn’t define the intent of dungeons, or world encounters (which again for some reason he felt the need to bring up) for that matter. Until you guys get that idea worked out, you’re only going to have a hard time.

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

spoj.9672:

So is running the game. And it doesnt make the data any less valid.

It’s more I guess an example of you guys trust that they actually don’t read the forums :p

That aside, I honestly have zero idea what the post in question is supposed to prove. Is he just bragging about his damage? Complaining about ‘bads’? What’s the point?

Reread it.

You have dozens of people doing the output of a dozen.

It’s a general frustration with the open world, where you’re forced to group up with people who simply don’t share your play style and you have NO CHOICE about who you play with in large part to these megaservers which ANet forced on us (which I fully believe was to reduce stress on their side, not really for our benefit)

I can see how you could get that point out of it, although the ‘me and my friends are better than 10 bads each’ attitude tends to muddy the message (which still isn’t terribly applicable to dungeon content).

We’ve talked some about your point before, and I’m still at the ‘not very likely’ camp. Anet has known that a small minority has wanted that for a very long time, and they’ve never shown any signs of wanting to implement it.

I don’t know if it’s technical issues, or social engineering issues (I can see arguments for both), but there’s like no sign they’ll be doing that. To me it’s far more likely that we’ll get new (non-fractal) dungeon content than we’ll get private event servers.

And that’s quite unfortunate, because some of these things could actually be fun if it weren’t for the zergs that come in and make it so you can just 1111 to win…

Its more like theres 30 people here and all of them are doing almost nothing to contribute to the progress of the event. A single person is doing 10% of the entire zergs damage. And you wonder why we get frustrated with open world? Harder events fail because of the overwhelming amount of players who scale up events and contribute almost nothing. Do you know how frustrating it is to see bosses like gold and silver fail when i know i can duo them faster than a zerg? Unfortunately the zerg wont allow it and scales it up, making it much more likely to fail. The pains of open world and the efficient players. >.<

Its not bragging. Its just pointing out how much of a joke the majority of players are. Ironically they could contribute atleast half of what that 1 decent player was doing if they just learnt a bit more about the game. They dont even need to switch gear or traits. Just use decent weapons, stack might and use semi decent rotations. But thats obviously too hard for many people. Especially when its a group effort. Is it really so much to ask to expect people to try and contribute in a group event? I really hope for more really unforgiving event timers in HoT. If we cant get decent instanced content maybe we can atleast teach players to contribute more by giving them such a high failure rate that they are forced to make an effort.

spoj.9672:

Its more like theres 30 people here and all of them are doing almost nothing to contribute to the progress of the event. A single person is doing 10% of the entire zergs damage. And you wonder why we get frustrated with open world? Harder events fail because of the overwhelming amount of players who scale up events and contribute almost nothing. Do you know how frustrating it is to see bosses like gold and silver fail when i know i can solo them faster than a zerg? Unfortunately the zerg wont allow it and scales it up making it much more likely to fail. The pains of open world and the efficient players. >.<

Its not bragging. Its just pointing out how much of a joke the majority of players are. Ironically they could contribute atleast half of what that 1 person was doing if they just learnt a bit more about the game. They dont even need to switch gear or traits. Just use decent weapons, stack might and use semi decent rotations. But thats obviously too hard for many people. Especially when its a group effort. Is it really so much to ask to expect people to try and contribute in a group event? I really hope for more really unforgiving event timers in HoT. If we cant get decent instanced content maybe we can atleast teach players to contribute more by giving them such a high failure rate that they are forced to make an effort.

(bold mine) they actually moderate these forums really heavily, so it’s hard for me to respond to that without getting in trouble. I’ll leave it with “You saying it’s not that we’re go good, they’re so terrible!!! isn’t much better”

Well that’s assuing his (again illegal) DPS meter is entirely accurate. There’s also a lot of unfortunate misinformation about those fights (especially Plat and Bronze) which makes people do really minimal dps. It does however point out why those tools are so loathesome though, it gets people focusing on the blame game when it’s not relevant. The encounters are designed to largely be dps agnostic it seems to me, it’s more abot knowing the rules

~~

(edited down)

What happens when Ouroboros eats all of its own tail?

Jerus.4350:

And that’s quite unfortunate, because some of these things could actually be fun

Had the pleasure of being top lane for a vinewrath with 4 people (that dwindled down to 2 fairly fast). Middle lane failed so we had to face the dreaded Mordrem Mangler. 4-6 manned with yolo pugs no problem.

Scaling could be amped up imho but other than that it mostly made me sad that the only reason we got to actually do content was the sheer incompetence of everyone else.

So the point is invalid because the facts shouldn’t be able to be seen?

I really do find it highly amusing when people talk about something like they know it, but they don’t even have all the facts on hand, nor do they have any solid evidence to back their claims. Why? Because it’s an illusion of knowledge they’re basing their arguments on, and not simply ignorance.

If you can convince me that Dub and frifox’s DPS meters are illegal, I will pay you 5g.

Jerus.4350:

So the point is invalid because the facts shouldn’t be able to be seen?

The point isn’t so much invalid as it is pointless, because all it shows is that arenanets intended design doesn’t correspond with dub’s specific wishes.

They know far better than we do how much raw dps it takes to kill the boss and how the encounter scales and exactly the effects of the various encounter mechanics, and that’s how the encounter is designed. If the point is ‘we don’t like how Arenanet designs living world encounters" I think it’s been made exceptionally clear over and over. They certainly knew these opinions before they built the Silverwastes encounters.

~~~

The fact that the numbers aren’t supposed to be seen is an aside to the already offtopic aside. I just can’t get off of it because it’s so demonstrative of the reasons they didn’t include it. Still, we can drop that part if you want, it really is an only tangientally related issue.